Author Topic: Home Schooling  (Read 39327 times)

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2014, 07:30:29 AM »
It's interesting that home schooling is such a big topic on MMM. I was home schooled K-12. While I received an excellent academic education and was well-prepared for college or independent learning, my feelings about home schooling are very mixed. The vast majority of home schooling parents that I know are primarily motivated to produce religious/political clones of themselves. During my high school years (early 2000s), over 75% of home schoolers were evangelical Christians. 83% of parents stated that the ability to provide religious and moral instruction was a primary motivator for their decision to home school.

I graduated high school never having had a non-evangelical friend, a non-white friend, a gay friend, or a politically liberal friend. A large number of home schoolers believe in young earth creationism and deny global warming. My history education was heavily reconstructed to support my parents' political and religious agenda. This is dangerous to society and unfair to children.

Here's my advice to anyone considering home schooling. Please honestly evaluate your motivation. I support home schooling if the goal is to give children freedom and nurture their natural curiosity and desire to learn. Unfortunately, many home schoolers are motivation by a "sheltering" mindset or a desire to control their children. Most of these parents want the best for their children but do not trust them to develop and grow into self-sufficient individuals. Trust your children. Give them guidance but respect them to choose their own path in life.

Personally, my wife and I will probably start our kids in public school but consider home schooling to allow for extended travel or other unique experience.

Here's an organization that is working to reform the current home school regulations. There's a significant amount of abuse and neglect occurring under the name of home schooling.
http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/

Here's a link to the type of science propaganda I was taught:
https://answersingenesis.org/

There's definitely that current out there, but I homeschool primarily to give my kids the freedom to be curious and engaged with the world around us. FWIW, I'm an atheist and bisexual.

ASquared

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2014, 12:15:41 PM »
As someone who was homeschooled until middle school (that's 7th grade, or roughly 12-13 years old where I grew up in New Mexico) I can say this - the greatest challenge I faced as an adult was learning to socialize competently, make friends, and interact with people. I think most people who homeschool their kids can and do do a great job with academics, but IMO that's not actually the most important thing that the kids of MMM posters need to learn. Parents who read/post here are all well above average in terms of intelligence and accomplishments, and most of our kids are too. Academic subjects are not going to be a big struggle for the vast majority of them.

The problem is that social interaction in a school setting, IMO, is actually great training for functioning in later life and missing it for those years I was homeschooled caused me really terrible problems - social phobias, shyness, extreme awkwardness in social situations, etc. I still think, 20 years later, that the greatest struggle of my life was teaching myself how to interact with people when I left (a few years early, another mistake) for college. Was it the homeschooling? We'll never know since this is only my subjective experience, but I've talked with other adults who were homeschooled who feel the same way. Not all of them, but certainly a significant number.

My kids will get thrown in with the bullies, nerds, jocks, stomps (slang in the 80s in NM for kids who wore cowboy boots and dipped, ah nostalgia) etc and learn that shit. Then when they need some social ninjitsu to charm a cop into only giving them a warning, or getting a number from that cute barista, or cracking the right joke at the right time to befriend a business partner - they'll be ready. As for morals - putting my kids in an echo chamber with me is just going to leave them unprepared for the real world when they leave. I'm sure they won't agree with me about many things and that's ok.

-W

Interesting story, thank you for sharing.  We are quite the opposite which primarily motivates me to consider homeschooling.  We are a very politically liberal family, spiritual but non-religious, Earth loving, tree hugging natural family.  Wholeheartedly support gay marriage.  Friends of all ethnicities.  We love Attachment Parenting and Alfie Kohn.  I don't like the emphasis on rewards in schools, nor the testing issues.  We also eat "real food" and I am not interested in my young child going to school with kids that eat garbage everyday.  I don't wish to normalize TV watching, fruit snack eating, i-thing obsessing.

Bruce

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2014, 12:25:03 PM »
It's interesting that home schooling is such a big topic on MMM. I was home schooled K-12. While I received an excellent academic education and was well-prepared for college or independent learning, my feelings about home schooling are very mixed. The vast majority of home schooling parents that I know are primarily motivated to produce religious/political clones of themselves. During my high school years (early 2000s), over 75% of home schoolers were evangelical Christians. 83% of parents stated that the ability to provide religious and moral instruction was a primary motivator for their decision to home school.

I graduated high school never having had a non-evangelical friend, a non-white friend, a gay friend, or a politically liberal friend. A large number of home schoolers believe in young earth creationism and deny global warming. My history education was heavily reconstructed to support my parents' political and religious agenda. This is dangerous to society and unfair to children.

Here's my advice to anyone considering home schooling. Please honestly evaluate your motivation. I support home schooling if the goal is to give children freedom and nurture their natural curiosity and desire to learn. Unfortunately, many home schoolers are motivation by a "sheltering" mindset or a desire to control their children. Most of these parents want the best for their children but do not trust them to develop and grow into self-sufficient individuals. Trust your children. Give them guidance but respect them to choose their own path in life.

Personally, my wife and I will probably start our kids in public school but consider home schooling to allow for extended travel or other unique experience.

Here's an organization that is working to reform the current home school regulations. There's a significant amount of abuse and neglect occurring under the name of home schooling...
(WARNING: Wall of text follows!)
You certainly raise some valid concerns.  Our family is strongly religious, and religion is indeed a part of our curriculum.  Being able to provide religious instruction to our kids was one reason we chose to home school, but certainly not the only one.  One of our biggest reasons for homeschooling was that our kids' school had an awful math curriculum which caused them to actually *regress* in their skills.  Another major reason was the stress that elementary schools put on our family.  A large percentage of the time our school-age kids were at home was during a stressful part of the day; in the mornings, when we were waking them up, getting them dressed and fed and out the door, and in the afternoons when they came home from school with homework right when the little kids were waking up from naps and my wife was starting dinner.  (as an aside, if my 6-year-old is at school for 7 hours each day, why the heck does she need homework?!)

Another major concern we have is the moral education of our kids.  We try to live up to a higher (or just *different*) moral standard than is typically accepted in society, and certainly a far cry from what is portrayed in pop culture.  Public education has a fairly consistent liberal bias, from Earth Day celebrations to gay marriage to social justice to sex ed to hoplophobia.  Some of these we're indifferent to, and to some we object.  The authors of the Common Core standards have flatly stated that they fully intend to teach students that some things that we find morally reprehensible are "normal" or an "acceptable alternative."  We, as their parents, feel that it is not only our prerogative as parents, but our *responsibility* to teach our kids higher moral standards.

In terms of regulations on home schooling families, this is a topic that frankly terrifies me.  I can understand the motivation--you (and I) don't want to see kids grow up without any interaction with people outside their families.  We both want to make sure all kids have an opportunity to gain the knowledge and skills to succeed in life.  That includes academics as well as social awareness and skills, and yes, moral standards. 

Before we run off to pile regulations on homeschoolers, we need to quantify exactly what the problem is and what we hope to accomplish by these regulations, and also quantify the side effects of any proposed regulations.  It sounds like you were very sheltered socially, and were not exposed to other (possibly) opposing world views.  Do you feel that you were disadvantaged as a result?  When you say that this is "dangerous to society and unfair to children" can you be more specific about the dangers?  I'm not arguing that such dangers don't exist; rather, we need to be able to point at a concrete problem with a defined scope before we can effectively work towards a solution.  By the same token, what is the scope and depth of the "significant amount of abuse and neglect"?

For our family, we have determined that homeschooling will provide our children a better education.  Not just academically, but socially and morally as well.  They hit a broader range of subjects (math, science, history, language arts, spelling, penmanship, religion, music, etc) at a faster pace (the oldest two, who are finishing 2nd and 3rd grade, are probably about a grade level beyond their peers in math and reading) in less time (usually under 4 hours each day) than they had at our local public school.  On top of that, their enthusiasm for learning has blossomed, and my DD is constantly asking questions about things like "how do fountains work?" and "what makes a watch tick?"  Not only do we have the flexibility to say "hey, that's a good question!  Let's go find out!" but we also have the *time* to do so.  Our kids have hours to ride their bikes and run around outside, making rock collections and digging up worms and potato bugs.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I want to be clear that I am not against homeschooling and I think most parents are a better judge of what's good for their children than the large public education system. Homeschooling requires a lot of sacrifice from parents and I respect them for that. The problem is that organizations like HSLDA have gone overboard protecting religious and parental rights at the expense of children's rights. They also advocate raising your children to be the next generation of culture warriors for the religious right (look at the Duggars). I support religious and political freedom. Every form of education is going to include indoctrination of some sort. I think we should be honest with our children about that. At some point children need to choose their own way. In my experience, homeschooling often delays children from becoming independent adults.

Here are some articles about HSLDAs activities:
http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/a-quick-and-dirty-primer-on-hslda/

http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/how-american-homeschoolers-enabled-and-funded-german-child-abuse-the-real-story-behind-the-religious-right-and-the-twelve-tribes/

I'm not suggesting piling regulations on home schoolers. Many states have no oversight at all. I don't like standardized testing but some kind of assessment would be useful to verify that children are receiving an education. I have friends who were high school age and still struggling to read. My siblings and I have excelled academically. (We have several medical professionals and an engineer. I'll be completing a science-related doctorate next year.) I think the most important part of fixing homeschooling is education and awareness within the community itself. Self-policing will prevent the need for restrictive regulation. This is where Homeschoolers Anonymous is relevant. Homeschoolers Anonymous (HA) is primarily made up of first-generation homeschool grads. Some attended the conservative Patrick Henry College. There are hundreds of us. Our goal is recognize problems and improve homeschooling for future generations (http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/about/).

I had a good amount of social interaction through my church, homeschool co-op, sports, etc. The problem was that all of these activities were full of like-minded homeschoolers. I had extensive worldview and critical thinking classes. We evaluated other belief systems but always from a position of superiority because we already knew "the truth".  I think I was socially disadvantaged during college because I did not have enough shared experiences to relate with my peers. I'm 10 years out of homeschooling now so it's no longer an issue.

Science denial is common in the conservative homeschool community. Teaching children young earth creationism encourages them to stop searching for answers too easily or to distort facts to support their preconceived answers. Why study anything when we already know the answer is "because God"? Fortunately, this doesn't have a huge effect on everyday life. It will make them look foolish in college but it won't kill them. Anti-vaccine groups and climate change deniers are much more concerning. I work in a medical field. We're starting to see the effects of the anti-vax scare through re-emergence of previously controlled diseases. My homeschooled siblings, cousins and friends have high rates of non-vaccination. I fear for their children in the event of an outbreak of whooping cough or measles. I'd recommend searching for Neil deGrasse Tyson's talks about climate change to see a well-reasoned, non-politicized explanation of its reality and potential threat.

Regarding your question about abuse and neglect, I'll just give you links to some resources. I don't think homeschooling is a risk factor for abuse. The concern is that it gives parents increased control and decreased accountability. This can be used to extreme harm by abusive parents.

http://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org/policy-issues/abuse-and-neglect/abuse-in-homeschooling-environments/

http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/of-peers-homeschooling-and-differentiation-by-gertrude-e-leigh/

http://www.secular-homeschooling.com/011/pearls.html

I like the final paragraph of your reply. It shows the freedom and love of learning that your home schooling can promote. My only concern is your emphasis on religious and moral education. Will you be able accept your children if they choose a different religious or moral path than you? What if one of them is LGBTQ? What if one becomes an atheist or converts to a different religion after honest questioning? Is your measure of successful parenting that your children all hold to your religious and moral beliefs? My family and homeschool community had no room for differences. I don't mean to project my experience onto your homeschooling but religious indoctrination and ideological control are big issues in the conservative homeschooling community. We need to promote awareness and support those who have been hurt by it.

Bruce

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2014, 12:33:41 PM »
Thegoblinchief and ZsMom,

It's good to see the homeschool community diversifying. I think intentional socialization and peer interaction are still important for more free-thinking homeschool families.

Bruce

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2014, 12:38:07 PM »
As someone who was homeschooled until middle school (that's 7th grade, or roughly 12-13 years old where I grew up in New Mexico) I can say this - the greatest challenge I faced as an adult was learning to socialize competently, make friends, and interact with people. I think most people who homeschool their kids can and do do a great job with academics, but IMO that's not actually the most important thing that the kids of MMM posters need to learn. Parents who read/post here are all well above average in terms of intelligence and accomplishments, and most of our kids are too. Academic subjects are not going to be a big struggle for the vast majority of them.

The problem is that social interaction in a school setting, IMO, is actually great training for functioning in later life and missing it for those years I was homeschooled caused me really terrible problems - social phobias, shyness, extreme awkwardness in social situations, etc. I still think, 20 years later, that the greatest struggle of my life was teaching myself how to interact with people when I left (a few years early, another mistake) for college. Was it the homeschooling? We'll never know since this is only my subjective experience, but I've talked with other adults who were homeschooled who feel the same way. Not all of them, but certainly a significant number.

My kids will get thrown in with the bullies, nerds, jocks, stomps (slang in the 80s in NM for kids who wore cowboy boots and dipped, ah nostalgia) etc and learn that shit. Then when they need some social ninjitsu to charm a cop into only giving them a warning, or getting a number from that cute barista, or cracking the right joke at the right time to befriend a business partner - they'll be ready. As for morals - putting my kids in an echo chamber with me is just going to leave them unprepared for the real world when they leave. I'm sure they won't agree with me about many things and that's ok.

-W

I definitely relate to your experience. This is why, if we homeschool, it will be for a limited time with specific reasons (travel, accelerated education, etc.).

waltworks

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2014, 03:55:10 PM »
I also wonder about this. I was homeschooled for entirely secular reasons but I knew a lot of kids whose parents were very religious and suspicious of "pop culture" and what they saw as societal decay (this was the 80s, so I assume they were afraid of Alf, moonboots, and Guns n' Roses). One buddy of mine got in a CRAZY amount of trouble once for reading a Piers Anthony novel that had a very vague and PG-13 description of sex. And he was 16!

I stay in touch with a few of these folks and they almost universally have rejected their parents' worldview - to me, homeschooling because you're afraid that the big, bad world will ruin your children is basically just admitting defeat. Only the least inquisitive and intelligent kids will fail to question what they've been taught when they leave the nest and are exposed to the real world and people with different viewpoints.

Justin Bieber, iPhones, having a gay friend, and crop tops are not going to turn your kids into serial killers, just like the Lindy Hop didn't make your grandparents into drug addicts. In fact, violent crime (as well as property crime depending on how you feel about Wall St. and events of 2007) is WAY down in the last 20 years or so in the US (maybe it was the moonboots). There are certainly plenty of problems with public schools that could make homeschooling a good choice but if you can't give your kid a good enough grounding in your worldview so that they can handle an earth day celebration or reading a book about how Susie has 2 moms... you already blew it.

-W



I like the final paragraph of your reply. It shows the freedom and love of learning that your home schooling can promote. My only concern is your emphasis on religious and moral education. Will you be able accept your children if they choose a different religious or moral path than you? What if one of them is LGBTQ? What if one becomes an atheist or converts to a different religion after honest questioning? Is your measure of successful parenting that your children all hold to your religious and moral beliefs? My family and homeschool community had no room for differences. I don't mean to project my experience onto your homeschooling but religious indoctrination and ideological control are big issues in the conservative homeschooling community. We need to promote awareness and support those who have been hurt by it.

ysette9

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2014, 08:07:30 PM »
I find this thread fascinating and I really respect how thoughtful and mature the posters have been so far. The thread caught my eye not because I am considering homeschooling any future children, but because I am strongly against it in my own personal life because my sister and I were home schooled for a few years when we were young. As a caveat, every experience will be different and I don't mean to imply that our experience was what home schooling now is like or how your own kids would turn out if you home schooled them.

That said, I completely agree with one of the previous posters about the challenges of the social disadvantage that being home schooled puts on a kid. I was only home schooled for grades 1-3 and during that time I had tons of unstructured time to play with the neighborhood kids, so it wasn't like I was locked up inside with only my sister to play with. Even still, once I went to a more "normal" school (albeit a conservative christian one, so still not truly mainstream), we both suffered dramatically in the social pecking order. Before I had even recognized that there was such a thing as a social hierarchy, I was firmly entrenched on the bottom and never recovered in that particular school.

I think part of that lack of social acceptance was due to the fact that the school was so conservatively christian so many of the kids had a very insular and unaccepting view of the world, which translated into being very judgmental. More so though I believe it was my own lack of social awareness that led to my miserable experience there. Thankfully I started going to regular school early enough that I was able to overcome those handicaps. As an exchange student after high school I remember one of the other exchange students I traveled with had been home schooled through high school, and I felt I could see that in her from across the airport terminal, her social presence was that "other" from the rest of us.   

On the plus side, all of that unstructured play time was fabulous as a young kid and something I still look back on fondly. Academically I did very well also (skipped a grade), though I continued to do well academically in regular school as well so maybe that doesn't have anything to do with the type of school I did (I have done home school, private school, public school, junior college, public school in another country, public university, & private university - phew!).

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2014, 10:21:49 PM »
I like the final paragraph of your reply. It shows the freedom and love of learning that your home schooling can promote. My only concern is your emphasis on religious and moral education. Will you be able accept your children if they choose a different religious or moral path than you? What if one of them is LGBTQ? What if one becomes an atheist or converts to a different religion after honest questioning? Is your measure of successful parenting that your children all hold to your religious and moral beliefs? My family and homeschool community had no room for differences. I don't mean to project my experience onto your homeschooling but religious indoctrination and ideological control are big issues in the conservative homeschooling community. We need to promote awareness and support those who have been hurt by it.
We certainly hope that our children will grow up with the same moral values and religious beliefs that we do.  We also recognize that our children have the ability to make their own choices, and there is a limit to our influence.  As such, we do our best to teach them correct principles, then let them govern themselves, stepping in when their behavior affects others negatively.

If one or more of our children choose a different path, we will certainly be saddened, but as they grow older, it truly is their choice.

homeymomma

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2014, 06:13:05 AM »
This is much less theological than the thread has tended towards, but here goes.

I currently have a 21 month old, and I'm due with #2 in a few months. I've always been fascinated by the idea of home schooling, and I think it could be amazing if I could do it well. My concern is that I might not do it well!! I'm very much a homebody (I'm probably overstating this as I've been sick at home with my pregnancy recently) and I'm not plugged in to any social networks at the moment. My husband and I are a great and close knit parenting team but he works all day, so the day time is up to me. We sleep in, lounge around, play outside when it's nice, and eat whoever looks good in the fridge. This is all ok because my kiddo is so young that all she really needs is loving attention and to be fed and clean. But I'm worried if I homeschool, with my introverted personality, I will over-shelter my kiddos from socializing and outside activity.

My optimistic side is convinced that as my kids get a bit older and actually benefit (i.e. notice) going anywhere other than our neighborhood playground, that I will take the initiative and expand their experiences accordingly.

We are an atheist family so we don't have a church community (something I miss from my own religious childhood). We're also living somewhere we don't like (HATE) for a couple of years so I've been having trouble finding the motivation to really invest in finding community here and plugging into any social resources.

Anyone have thoughts? Do I sound like someone who is capable of homeschooling or would my babies be better off in a classroom? Where we live now has great schools, but I like that homeschooling gives the option of moving somewhere with a lower COL and still maintaining a good academic environment.

Also I'm worried that if I'm too chicken to start off homeschooling from the very beginning, I'll get too used to having free time by myself during the day and I'll be reluctant to switch to homeschooling later.

My husband is not supportive of the idea, he feels that the academics are to a big deal in the early grades but school-based socialization is critical. He notes my homebody tendencies with concern as well. We are both educated beyond college but he is concerned with my ability to teach effectively in older grades.

Anyone do a homeschool-like ritual this early with their kids? Care to share? Abcs, etc?

Sorry my post become super rambling. Thanks to anyone who replies.

avonlea

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2014, 06:19:45 AM »
I like the final paragraph of your reply. It shows the freedom and love of learning that your home schooling can promote. My only concern is your emphasis on religious and moral education. Will you be able accept your children if they choose a different religious or moral path than you? What if one of them is LGBTQ? What if one becomes an atheist or converts to a different religion after honest questioning? Is your measure of successful parenting that your children all hold to your religious and moral beliefs? My family and homeschool community had no room for differences. I don't mean to project my experience onto your homeschooling but religious indoctrination and ideological control are big issues in the conservative homeschooling community. We need to promote awareness and support those who have been hurt by it.
We certainly hope that our children will grow up with the same moral values and religious beliefs that we do.  We also recognize that our children have the ability to make their own choices, and there is a limit to our influence.  As such, we do our best to teach them correct principles, then let them govern themselves, stepping in when their behavior affects others negatively.

If one or more of our children choose a different path, we will certainly be saddened, but as they grow older, it truly is their choice.

From what you are saying, it sounds like you accept the notion that your children might end up making different choices than your own.  But will you be accepting of those choices? I have a family situation that is similar to Bruce's.  I understand where he is coming from with his concern.

avonlea

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2014, 06:23:11 AM »
You are definitely capable of homeschooling your kids, homeymomma. :) I am typing on a phone now but will make another comment to you later when I can communicate more efficiently.

Edit: spelling
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 10:17:12 AM by avonlea »

randymarsh

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2014, 07:24:47 AM »
Another major concern we have is the moral education of our kids.  We try to live up to a higher (or just *different*) moral standard than is typically accepted in society, and certainly a far cry from what is portrayed in pop culture.  Public education has a fairly consistent liberal bias, from Earth Day celebrations to gay marriage to social justice to sex ed to hoplophobia.  Some of these we're indifferent to, and to some we object.  The authors of the Common Core standards have flatly stated that they fully intend to teach students that some things that we find morally reprehensible are "normal" or an "acceptable alternative."  We, as their parents, feel that it is not only our prerogative as parents, but our *responsibility* to teach our kids higher moral standards.

In terms of regulations on home schooling families, this is a topic that frankly terrifies me.  I can understand the motivation--you (and I) don't want to see kids grow up without any interaction with people outside their families.  We both want to make sure all kids have an opportunity to gain the knowledge and skills to succeed in life.  That includes academics as well as social awareness and skills, and yes, moral standards. 

When you say that this is "dangerous to society and unfair to children" can you be more specific about the dangers?  I'm not arguing that such dangers don't exist; rather, we need to be able to point at a concrete problem with a defined scope before we can effectively work towards a solution.

Yeah this is exactly why people want those regulations that terrify you. It sounds like you want to carefully control your child's education so they're only exposed to things you specifically approve of. Everything else will be tightly restricted and tainted with your disapproval.

"Dangerous to society and unfair to children". Kids who grow up thinking the Earth is 6000 years old are at a tremendous disadvantage when they enter college. Evolution is the foundation of modern biology, so count that subject out. Climate change is a real thing and it's hard to motivate people to take steps to reduce the damage it can cause when we're raising people to reject evidence and science. Or worse, aren't worried about it at all because they think Jesus is coming back soon.

BTW, I've never heard from anyone that Earth day is controversial. Can you elaborate on that?


waltworks

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2014, 08:38:55 AM »
Keep in mind that doing stuff like teaching your kids to read at 3 or whatever has zero positive impact on their later academic performance, and in fact in some studies has shown to have a small but significant negative effect.

Mammals *all* do unstructured social play when young. The more intelligent, the more they play. Think hard about that for a minute, and about how *dangerous* playing is - 1000 years ago, a broken arm or infected cut from a fall would most likely kill you. If your kids enjoy the ABC song, by all means sing it with them. But don't try to *teach* them any academic subjects until they're at least 5 or 6.

Here is a good summary of the research: http://www.easternct.edu/cece/documents/TheCaseforPlayinPreschool.pdf

-W

Anyone do a homeschool-like ritual this early with their kids? Care to share? Abcs, etc?

Sorry my post become super rambling. Thanks to anyone who replies.

avonlea

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2014, 10:47:54 AM »
If your kids enjoy the ABC song, by all means sing it with them. But don't try to *teach* them any academic subjects until they're at least 5 or 6.

Here is a good summary of the research: http://www.easternct.edu/cece/documents/TheCaseforPlayinPreschool.pdf

-W

I think we might be on a similar page, waltworks.  But to clarify what you were saying about "teaching" academic subjects, I wanted to post a couple of parts from the research paper you shared.

Quote
The logical (though faulty) assumption is that children who are not learning should be taught directly,
efficiently, and sequentially, even in the early years. Direct instruction advocates have argued
that this is the best way to provide children living in poverty with the learning experiences that
middle class children have enjoyed in their homes (Bereiter & Engelmann, 1966). Interestingly,
what middle class children experience within their families is just the opposite--spontaneous,
informal, conversational, authentic, literacy-rich, and playful interaction (Pungello et al., 2009;
Tudge et al., 2001). As demonstrated in studies cited in this review, children of low SES,
particularly boys, are likely to fare better in such playful settings

Quote
Over the years, well-designed play
programs have been confused with laissez faire teaching. Many child care and preschool
programs—touted as highly play-oriented--have lacked thoughtful planning, implementation,
and assessment. A sit-back-and-watch-development-occur approach is still prevalent. When such
classrooms fail to produce results, administrators and policy makers blame play. For play to have
its greatest impact, it must be situated within a theory-grounded, carefully planned, and
assessment-based classroom.

avonlea

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2014, 11:02:24 AM »
Hi, homeymomma.  I have friends who did 100% homeschooling during the preschool years, but since I did not, I don't really feel that I am the most qualified to comment on that part of your question.  I think that if you read to your kids, give them lots of play time (with different types of play), and do some fun educational activities, they'll be off to a good start.  I didn't start officially homeschooling until my child was in second grade, but I wanted to share this webpage with you.  It gives a brief description of different methods of homeschooling. http://www.home-school-curriculum-advisor.com/home-schooling-method.html 

If you are worried about social interaction, some communities have homeschooling groups that include families from many different backgrounds.  Also, some public schools are open to letting homeschooled students attend certain classes, like P.E., art, and music.  You can also sign your kids up for activities where children who attend school will be participating.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 12:15:42 PM by avonlea »

avonlea

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2014, 12:17:23 PM »
Homeymomma, I forgot to add that some children will have special needs no matter how well you prepare them during the early years.  There are exceptions to everything.  I was giving general advice. :)

waltworks

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2014, 12:32:29 PM »
What clarification were you looking for? Yes, there's a lot going on - you have to separate the research on interventions for low SES kids who have been in a deprived environment from the studies on middle class ones. It's a review article so there is a ton of information presented very rapidly.

I don't think anyone is arguing that you should just ignore your kids. The point is that learning "academic" (ie reading, writing, mathematics) subjects in any kind of formal way is probably a waste of time (at best) or even slightly harmful in a worst-case scenario for preschool age kids.

What I take away from this for homeschooling purposes is that you are going to want to spend a LOT of your "home" schooling time away from home around lots of other kids where your kids can play make-believe, get in arguments over toys, see older and younger kids behaving in different ways, etc. In our situation it makes more sense to just do daycare/preschool where we know our son is doing those kinds of things because no matter how much I might want to, it's very hard for me to provide him that level of social interaction and stimulation at home.

-W

I think we might be on a similar page, waltworks.  But to clarify what you were saying about "teaching" academic subjects, I wanted to post a couple of parts from the research paper you shared.

avonlea

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2014, 01:21:17 PM »
waltworks, thank you for your response.  When I read your previous post,  I got the impression that you were against parents introducing pre-literacy, pre-math, and early science skills to preschoolers.  I see that you are saying they can be introduced to children in a non-didactic way.  That's what I was hoping to get clarification on.

And I just want to add my thoughts on this statement.  I think we agree but I'm not sure.
I don't think anyone is arguing that you should just ignore your kids. The point is that learning "academic" (ie reading, writing, mathematics) subjects in any kind of formal way is probably a waste of time (at best) or even slightly harmful in a worst-case scenario for preschool age kids.
My younger child was extremely ready to learn reading, writing, and math skills at age 4.  Her teacher saw that and taught it in a fun, informal way.  My daughter has not been hurt by it.  At age 8, she is several years ahead in reading and a year ahead in math. I see that you wrote "probably", though, so I am guessing that you agree there are exceptions.   My older child was not ready to start reading sentences somewhat fluently until he was 9 years old (And he still struggles with reading skills, probably always will struggle with speed.).  He knew all of his letters and their sounds at the recommended age, but his brain was not ready to use it for reading until later.  I agree that children should not be pushed to learn early if they are not ready.  Parents and teachers should read the cues from children and ideally teach them in an individually-based manner, which is something homeschooling allows a parent to do and I think is one of its best benefits.

What I take away from this for homeschooling purposes is that you are going to want to spend a LOT of your "home" schooling time away from home around lots of other kids where your kids can play make-believe, get in arguments over toys, see older and younger kids behaving in different ways, etc.
I agree that it's important for homeschoolers to have playgroups and playdates.  Thanks for saying this!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 02:11:03 PM by avonlea »

waltworks

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2014, 02:17:10 PM »
Most likely (according to the science) your daughter would be where she's at now regardless of whether or not she learned to read at 3, 4, or 5 - the further out you go, the less learning academic skills early seems to matter. I'm sure she was not harmed as it sounds like it was entirely her own motivation. There are plenty of parents who are actively pushing their children into reading/writing/mathematics at 2 or 3 or 4 who are arguably harming (albeit slightly) their children's future intellectual development and that's what I'm trying to argue against.

There is a real culture of prodigy in western societies which isn't all that healthy or useful - google up Lewis Terman and some of his work for more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_Studies_of_Genius). 14 year olds with perfect SAT scores going to Harvard are not exciting to me or particularly useful to society - 30 year olds who solve the structure of a protein useful in fighting Alzheimers are. And the evidence is that the 14 year old at Harvard isn't really any more likely to do that than any other moderately above-average kid who happens to be interested in science when their skills are finally to the point where they can use them to solve novel problems. I don't care about how quickly you jump through academic hoops unless you're not jumping them at all and need help - what I care about is whether or not you can contribute something new and useful someday, whether that's at 17 or 70. I think we lose sight of that a lot in the race to have our kids reading ahead of grade level.

Man, this is getting off topic. Sorry.

-W

avonlea

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2014, 02:26:29 PM »
Most likely (according to the science) your daughter would be where she's at now regardless of whether or not she learned to read at 3, 4, or 5 - the further out you go, the less learning academic skills early seems to matter. I'm sure she was not harmed as it sounds like it was entirely her own motivation. There are plenty of parents who are actively pushing their children into reading/writing/mathematics at 2 or 3 or 4 who are arguably harming (albeit slightly) their children's future intellectual development and that's what I'm trying to argue against.

There is a real culture of prodigy in western societies which isn't all that healthy or useful - google up Lewis Terman and some of his work for more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_Studies_of_Genius). 14 year olds with perfect SAT scores going to Harvard are not exciting to me or particularly useful to society - 30 year olds who solve the structure of a protein useful in fighting Alzheimers are. And the evidence is that the 14 year old at Harvard isn't really any more likely to do that than any other moderately above-average kid who happens to be interested in science when their skills are finally to the point where they can use them to solve novel problems. I don't care about how quickly you jump through academic hoops unless you're not jumping them at all and need help - what I care about is whether or not you can contribute something new and useful someday, whether that's at 17 or 70. I think we lose sight of that a lot in the race to have our kids reading ahead of grade level.

Man, this is getting off topic. Sorry.

-W

Yes, I agree with the general gist of this.  I know the type of pushing you are talking about.  I am not a fan of it.  And I completely agree with the sentence to which I have added emphasis.  My greatest hopes for our children are for them to be reasonably happy and for them to be caring, helpful members of society.

P.S. Sorry that I derailed the thread, too. :)

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2014, 11:03:36 PM »
Anyone have thoughts? Do I sound like someone who is capable of homeschooling or would my babies be better off in a classroom?
You've got a few years to figure out whether homeschooling is for you--it's good that you're starting the thought process now.  My advice is this:  read to your kids on a daily basis.  Then when they're ready, teach your kids to read.  Ours have all started learning to read at age 3-4, but yours may be different.  Then let them loose.  Give them have access to books, but don't push it too hard--let them discover the joy of independent reading and learning.  Over the years, we've accumulated a decent library of everything from board books to Magic Treehouse to Harry Potter up through JRR Tolkien, Oscar Wilde, Dickens, and Jules Verne, along with a bunch of non-fiction books on all sorts of topics, so there's lots for our kids to explore.

I don't have any objection to sending your child to kindergarten when he/she is 5 years old.  It can be a great experience for kids, and a lot of fun.  It'll give you a good chance to get a feel for how the school works, and to get to know the teachers and administration.  Our 5-almost-6-year-old would go into kindergarten this coming fall, but because his birthday is right after the cutoff, he'd be the oldest in his class, and since he can already read and write (DW did a kindergarten curriculum with him this past year), he'd be bored to tears.  So we'll send him with his siblings to the public school for their specials (art, music, PE).

From what you are saying, it sounds like you accept the notion that your children might end up making different choices than your own.  But will you be accepting of those choices?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "accepting of those choices."  We will always love our children and want the best for them, whether they make good choices or bad.  This does not mean, however, that we will condone/rationalize/enable/excuse behavior that runs contrary to our moral standards.

Yeah this is exactly why people want those regulations that terrify you. It sounds like you want to carefully control your child's education so they're only exposed to things you specifically approve of. Everything else will be tightly restricted and tainted with your disapproval.

"Dangerous to society and unfair to children". Kids who grow up thinking the Earth is 6000 years old are at a tremendous disadvantage when they enter college. Evolution is the foundation of modern biology, so count that subject out. Climate change is a real thing and it's hard to motivate people to take steps to reduce the damage it can cause when we're raising people to reject evidence and science. Or worse, aren't worried about it at all because they think Jesus is coming back soon.

BTW, I've never heard from anyone that Earth day is controversial. Can you elaborate on that?
You are pretty much spot on in the first paragraph.  Yes, we want to control our kids' education, and the things they are exposed to.  That being said, we do not intend to prevent them from ever being exposed to things which we find objectionable.  On the contrary, we *do* want them to learn about all the different cultures, religions, political views, and belief systems.  But we want them to learn those things in the proper context and at the proper time.

We're not science deniers, either.  How do we reconcile evolution with Creationism?  We don't.  We accept that neither science nor religion give us a complete picture. Climate change...well, that gets into too much politics. 

Regarding Earth Day, I don't have any particular objection to it, nor to a lot of activities that surround it per se.  What I object to is the quantity of time and attention schools devote to it.  (It's not just Earth Day--that was just an easy target, an example of the many non-academic activities kids do in school that take away from time spent learning core academics).

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2014, 11:14:51 PM »
Most likely (according to the science) your daughter would be where she's at now regardless of whether or not she learned to read at 3, 4, or 5 - the further out you go, the less learning academic skills early seems to matter. I'm sure she was not harmed as it sounds like it was entirely her own motivation. There are plenty of parents who are actively pushing their children into reading/writing/mathematics at 2 or 3 or 4 who are arguably harming (albeit slightly) their children's future intellectual development and that's what I'm trying to argue against.
For us, one of the unexpected benefits (although in hindsight it should not have been) of homeschooling was a change in our kids' attitude toward learning.  Without the constraints inherent in a large class environment,* they can finish their work more quickly and have the freedom and time to explore topics they find more interesting.  The change we have noticed is a much greater enthusiasm for learning** and a curiosity about the world around them.  No longer do they need to sit silently and bored while their classmates catch up.

* - e.g. a schedule where each subject takes up X minutes each day for Y content, regardless of how fast your kid can get through it
** - It's not this way all the time.  Everybody has a grumpy day sometimes.  There may be less-preferred topics in school, but we seldom hear "school is boring," except in occasional reference to their specials they attend at our public school.

Richie Poor

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2014, 04:48:37 PM »
I don't have children yet so I will not try to sell anyone on the merits of homeschooling. I just wanted to comment on socialization. I was introverted as a toddler, went to public school, and am now an introverted adult.

Some of us start out low on the social pecking order from the very beginning and every day in school feels like prison. I loved learning but hated the forced socialization. I'm still not good at making small talk or speaking to a group of coworkers, but I do have a good job. I did get married as well. I just really do not like talking to people who do not interest me.

With the wrong homeschooling parents I'm sure my social skills could have turned out worse. Although I would wager with the right homeschooling parents they might have improved. Public schools don't always produce social butterflies though.

Gin1984

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2014, 06:43:23 PM »
Anyone have thoughts? Do I sound like someone who is capable of homeschooling or would my babies be better off in a classroom?
You've got a few years to figure out whether homeschooling is for you--it's good that you're starting the thought process now.  My advice is this:  read to your kids on a daily basis.  Then when they're ready, teach your kids to read.  Ours have all started learning to read at age 3-4, but yours may be different.  Then let them loose.  Give them have access to books, but don't push it too hard--let them discover the joy of independent reading and learning.  Over the years, we've accumulated a decent library of everything from board books to Magic Treehouse to Harry Potter up through JRR Tolkien, Oscar Wilde, Dickens, and Jules Verne, along with a bunch of non-fiction books on all sorts of topics, so there's lots for our kids to explore.

I don't have any objection to sending your child to kindergarten when he/she is 5 years old.  It can be a great experience for kids, and a lot of fun.  It'll give you a good chance to get a feel for how the school works, and to get to know the teachers and administration.  Our 5-almost-6-year-old would go into kindergarten this coming fall, but because his birthday is right after the cutoff, he'd be the oldest in his class, and since he can already read and write (DW did a kindergarten curriculum with him this past year), he'd be bored to tears.  So we'll send him with his siblings to the public school for their specials (art, music, PE).

From what you are saying, it sounds like you accept the notion that your children might end up making different choices than your own.  But will you be accepting of those choices?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "accepting of those choices."  We will always love our children and want the best for them, whether they make good choices or bad.  This does not mean, however, that we will condone/rationalize/enable/excuse behavior that runs contrary to our moral standards.

Yeah this is exactly why people want those regulations that terrify you. It sounds like you want to carefully control your child's education so they're only exposed to things you specifically approve of. Everything else will be tightly restricted and tainted with your disapproval.

"Dangerous to society and unfair to children". Kids who grow up thinking the Earth is 6000 years old are at a tremendous disadvantage when they enter college. Evolution is the foundation of modern biology, so count that subject out. Climate change is a real thing and it's hard to motivate people to take steps to reduce the damage it can cause when we're raising people to reject evidence and science. Or worse, aren't worried about it at all because they think Jesus is coming back soon.

BTW, I've never heard from anyone that Earth day is controversial. Can you elaborate on that?
You are pretty much spot on in the first paragraph.  Yes, we want to control our kids' education, and the things they are exposed to.  That being said, we do not intend to prevent them from ever being exposed to things which we find objectionable.  On the contrary, we *do* want them to learn about all the different cultures, religions, political views, and belief systems.  But we want them to learn those things in the proper context and at the proper time.

We're not science deniers, either.  How do we reconcile evolution with Creationism?  We don't.  We accept that neither science nor religion give us a complete picture. Climate change...well, that gets into too much politics. 

Regarding Earth Day, I don't have any particular objection to it, nor to a lot of activities that surround it per se.  What I object to is the quantity of time and attention schools devote to it.  (It's not just Earth Day--that was just an easy target, an example of the many non-academic activities kids do in school that take away from time spent learning core academics).
Except that climate change has as much support, scientifically, as evolution or frankly any other scientific theory.  And if you don't know something that basic (was taught in my high school biology), how are you planning to teach science?  From a textbook?  That does not sound fun.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 06:45:30 PM by Gin1984 »

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2014, 10:12:30 PM »
We're homeschooling our son (10 years old) as a trial this term.  Secular, science-oriented household with strong enough academic backgrounds that, if we decide to, we could comfortably cover academic content across the disciplines up through high school level.  We also know from a previous brief period of homeschooling on an overseas trip, in which - to my surprise as well as my son's - he raced through several years of math in a few weeks, having previously been told by his teachers that this was his "weak" subject, that the individual approach we can offer at home, works much better for him educationally...

For him specifically, I would not have wanted to home school from the beginning.  He is an anxious child, who struggles with, and prefers to avoid, social situations with other kids.  Although I don't think school is a particularly good social environment, and I don't think its social environment maps onto anything people are likely to encounter in adulthood (things like the It Gets Better project capture some of the difference well...), still, it does provide access to an intense social crucible - and I felt that he needed some exposure to that, for desensitisation purposes and to have an opportunity to try out different coping strategies.  For years, he spent many evenings curled up helplessly crying... But he also learned strategies for pulling himself together and going back the next day.  And at school, he functioned okay - he developed and sustained friendships and wasn't perceived as someone who was particularly struggling socially.

Academically, although it's ostensibly a "good" public school, this just reflects the socio-economic demographic of the neighbourhood.  The early years teachers were very good; after that, they've been terrible.  The only math he's learned in three years is what we covered in our trip overseas.  I've become increasingly anxious that he's falling behind and will struggle in high school as a result.  At the same time, he seems to have "mastered" the social aspect - he's become quite popular, and no longer gets really upset at home.  Instead, he's developed a sort of clinical analysis of the problems with how his teachers teach, and how they interact with other students and manage their classrooms (we're an academic household, so he hears us talk a lot about teaching technique and course design - he's picked this up and extrapolated it to his primary school...).

Because the social stuff no longer seems a source of major anxiety, and because I'm not impressed that he spends so much time in school, and brings home homework besides, while showing no noticeable skills improvements in two years (his grades are always off the charts - I think he's in the "too easy" basket - the school sees no reason to be teaching him more), when he proposed homeschooling last term, I was open to the idea.  One of us is always home anyway to take care of our two-year-old.  There are amazing materials available these days - homeschooled kids really can get access to their pick of some of the best instruction in the world, in any topic you could imagine.  My "condition" for the home school trial was that he be involved in a range of activities outside the home, that would let him associate with other kids - he's really thriving in these, and comes home with excited stories about what he's done.

I'll need to ramp up the pace a bit in some areas - he's complaining that the science and the comparative religions studies I originally designed, aren't demanding enough...  He wants more reading in both areas... :-P.  He also wants to add violin lessons to his arts study (the last few weeks, he's been doing a drama class at the local community art centre, and also using some apps to learn how to read music).  He thinks his economics project is too hard (I've tasked him with working out, with reference to a basket of common grocery items, which local store or market is least expensive, on average), but he's actually getting quite quick spotting the best value for particular items.  He's making progress with his math, although it's only been a few weeks, so we're just covering what his school ought to have already been teaching, but hasn't been.  He hates physical activity - he's not a coordinated kid - but that's no different from school, but he is gradually improving there as well.

But the biggest change has been in how much additional energy he has "left over" for the household.  School "uses up" so much energy, he comes home so tired - and then has other nonsense he's meant to do, while we're also trying to get dinner ready.  He can now focus hard on his study, work efficiently, and get it done - and then use his energy for other things.  He's taken to organising household activities a couple evenings a week - movie nights, board games, card games - and is currently planning an "excursion" out of town.  The change is remarkable.

The original plan was to do one trial term (9 weeks).  Personally, I'd be willing to let him finish out primary school on a homeschool basis at this point, but I am waiting a bit longer to discuss it with him.  High school is more complicated - again for social, rather than academic, reasons.  On the one hand, I think high school is often a horrific social environment, and one that lacks checks and balances that would exist in almost every adult environment.  On the other hand, he has a history of struggling socially, and I'm wondering if the various bounded social activities provide the same sort of social "practice" that high school would.  We're in the zone of a good public high school that, on the surface at least, seems to have a pretty vibrant nerd culture - it could be a really positive thing...

I should note, though, that this worry is specific to my son: I don't generally think that home schooling is problematic socially.  I was pretty indifferent to peer group issues as a kid - this put me in some danger at my high school, but there was no sense in which navigating that danger was beneficial, or equipped me for an independent adult life - quite the contrary...  But I was sufficiently self-directed that I think I would have done fine with no formal schooling at all.  My daughter, although still too young to know for sure, seems to be tending that way too.  If that continues, I'd likely let her make her own choice about whether she's getting something from school or not.  With my son, I just want to be careful to make sure his tendency to social anxiety doesn't lead him to isolate himself, which makes it a harder process to navigate...


Thegoblinchief

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2014, 06:33:10 AM »
Kepler, really cool post!

As far as socialization during high school, what about having him get a part time job?

PloddingInsight

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2014, 09:18:17 AM »
Imma bring the smack down in this thread.  I apologize for offending everybody in advance.

We don't homeschool but I'm a climate change skeptic and I am going to teach my kids my views.  What do you want to do, send the police to shut me up?
Yeah this is exactly why people want those regulations that terrify you. It sounds like you want to carefully control your child's education so they're only exposed to things you specifically approve of. Everything else will be tightly restricted and tainted with your disapproval.
Do you even have kids?  Of course people censor what their kids are exposed to.  Everybody does that.  Are you going to let your kindergartener watch a horror film?  Imagine laws saying you have to expose your kids to horror films.  Oh wait that's different.  Why?  Because letting a little kid watch that is out of alignment with your personal values.  Well guess what, lots of people out there have different values than you.  It's almost as if you are a fundamentalist.  I have no problem with people raising their kids according to values different than mine, but you apparently are too much of a puritan to allow it.  What happened to pluralism?  PLURALISM DOESN'T MEAN PEOPLE OF MANY COLORS ALL ACTING AND TALKING EXACTLY THE SAME.
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"Dangerous to society and unfair to children". Kids who grow up thinking the Earth is 6000 years old are at a tremendous disadvantage when they enter college.
WHO CARES.  Lots of kids grow up in homes where there are no books, where parents don't value education at all.  And their crappy public schools can't even overcome those issues.  You want to storm those houses with cops and take their kids away?  Because I think those kids are at a much bigger disadvantage at college (if they even show up) than somebody with parents that believe in a super-literal interpretation of Genesis.
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Evolution is the foundation of modern biology, so count that subject out.
Most kids leave high school without any understanding of modern biology at all.  Again, WHO CARES.  Why is it such a big problem that people are different from you?  You want to visit the horror of a police state upon families (because that is exactly what we're talking about) because of... biology?  Seriously?  Imagine somebody suggesting we fine and imprison parents because their views on nineteenth century literature or geometry was out of alignment with the rest of society.
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Climate change is a real thing and it's hard to motivate people to take steps to reduce the damage it can cause when we're raising people to reject evidence and science. Or worse, aren't worried about it at all because they think Jesus is coming back soon.
It all comes back to Jeebus with you people, doesn't it?  You can't even live by the pluralistic values you supposedly believe in, because you hear somebody say Jeebus and you can't help it, you turn on the intolerance.  Nevermind that the computer models re: global warming are highly suspect and the scientists in the field mostly refuse to disclose enough data for their work to be reproduced.  Nevermind that the supposed "solutions" are more expensive and harmful than the alleged problem.
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BTW, I've never heard from anyone that Earth day is controversial. Can you elaborate on that?
There is no such thing as a value-free education.  Earth day is the religious observance of a secular culture, and I oppose it as much as I would oppose any other religious indoctrination that isn't specific to my beliefs and values as a parent.  It is indoctrination, just like parents who teach biblical literalism are indoctrinating their kids.  You indoctrinate your kids, if you have any.  (Doubt it.)  Free-thinking, rationalist approach to the universe?  Indoctination.  The word is a pejorative form of the word "teaching".  True ideological minorities realize this.  Conservative Christians are now beginning to find themselves a minority, and they are beginning to realize this.  They're beginning to learn what pluralism and tolerance really mean, and they're beginning to appreciate them.  Secularists are riding high on a wave of inevitability, and they're accordingly abandoning pluralism and tolerance, which is a real shame.  If the word liberalism means anything, it ought to mean a preference for liberty.

Beric01

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2014, 12:06:42 PM »
Just found this thread, so I figured I'd cross-post my own positive experiences as a homeschooled through high school, now college graduate:

I was homeschooled from kindergarten through high school - that's full-on homeschooling, not charter schools. I then went to a community college for 2 years, and transferred to a 4-year university for the last 2 years. I graduated 2 years ago with multiple job offers lined up and have been working full-time in Silicon Valley ever since. My younger brother graduated this year with a job offer and is doing the same.

Agreed with rebel100 about the "socialization" myth. If anything, going to public school will give you the socialization issues! Think about all the bullying and illegal drugs in public schools! My parents wanted to avoid that.

Here's the thing about public schools: they're inefficient. It's fairly hard to learn slower or faster than the rest of the class (I was always 2+ grades ahead in all of my subjects). Public schools work as babysitting - they waste a lot of student's time. I completed most of my subjects daily in 3-4 hours tops (and remember, I was well ahead in my studies). Some studies have suggested that students do better homeschooled, but regardless, I definitely wasn't held back.

I fit perfectly into college - I was usually my teachers' favorite as I actually paid attention and asked questions in class. I was an officer in a club and a member in 2 more clubs, and I still had time to cook/play game/hang out with friends on the weekend.

I would say homeschooling is awesome - if you can have at least one parent home. My parents aren't Mustachian, but they're pretty frugal - my Dad supported our family on one income just fine, and he isn't even a manager - we just didn't buy BMW's. My Mom was the teacher.

Ybserp

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2014, 09:06:57 AM »
I was homeschooled for a few years because it was the best educational option available to my parents at the time. It was hugely beneficial for me as a student. A few years later after a move, my siblings and I were in public schools. Most of us did well, but one sibling immediately drew two poor teachers in a row. My parents pulled him out of public school and homeschooled him to make up for the school's educational failures. After he had the skills to teach himself even with poor teachers, they put him back in public school for middle school and high school.

I am very supportive of laws allowing the parents to choose the best educational option available to them for their children. And I'd much, much rather the parents be the ones to choose what is bests for their kids than to have public education bureaucrats or local lawmakers attempt to do it for a district worth of children they don't know.

rocketpj

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2014, 09:29:07 AM »
I like the idea of homeschooling, but in practice I suspect I would end up being a grumpy dad fairly quickly.

As an aside, we are in the midst of an infuriating teacher strike/lockout here in BC which doesn't look to be ending in time for the new school year next week.  So it will be homeschool by default.

All well and good except that both parents in this house have full time jobs, like most families around here.  So basically we are all screwed.  We found a YMCA day camp for the older boy which will be fine, but the younger boy (who is about to start kindergarten) would not do well getting sent off to a big camp all of a sudden.

NOTE:  The strike is not because of nasty unions or any of that BS.  The gov't broke a contract 12 years ago, illegally.  They've lost 2 court cases about it since then, and are on their last appeal - before they have to admit they were illegal and unconstitutional in their contract breaking ways.  They have ZERO interest in negotiating before that court result comes through.  And the issue is not so much wages as class sizes and support for ESL and disabled kids (if they don`t have enough support they take all the teachers`attention and the rest of the kids lose out).

James

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2014, 09:47:20 AM »
I was homeschooled all the way through until college, it worked fine, my mother put in countless hours making sure it was the best she could make it. I missed out in some areas and benefited in others, all in all it worked out.


We homeschooled our kids for a few years, then switched to a catholic school in town. It is pretty cheap and does a good job, but in hind sight we would have just switched to public school I think. Just need to find what works for you in your life and your situation.


Ignore anyone who says anything absolute about families, life, religion, homeschooling, etc. There isn't any one truth, any one "right and wrong", any one best choice for every family. Often those most helpful to homeschoolers are the ones with the worst advice, so buyer beware. :)


Best of luck!

randymarsh

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #81 on: August 27, 2014, 05:09:14 PM »
guys we have to stop posting, we've been "smacked down".


SF Semi-Mustache

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2014, 12:47:09 PM »
Completely agree with you on people who profess absolutes, and also, as a parent of an always-been and always-plans-to-be (but-who-knows-what-might-happen) homeschooled kiddo, I always love hearing from real, live, functioning adults who were homeschooled for the whole deal!

I was homeschooled K-12, partially for religious reasons and partially due to the inner-city-warzone nature of our local public schools. 

I started college early (at a small public university -- very mustachian), and finished with a 4.0.  I attended a top 5 law school, and now I work at a large law firm.  Several of my classmates in my law school were homeschooled, and all did very well.

I had no socialization problems in college -- people didn't know I was homeschooled until I told them, and most seemed surprised.  I'm fairly introverted, but not shy.  If I have "social problems," I'm fine with them, as I generally prefer to be by myself or with small groups of close friends. 

I'm not sure I'd consider homeschooling for my own kids (which are 7-10 years down the road).  Perhaps for a time to allow for travel or a non-traditional educational experience (volunteering, etc.), but I don't have the same religious motivations and I believe in our local public schools.  I also think religious beliefs have to exist (and stand or fall) in the secular marketplace of ideas, and I want my kids to have faith because they really believe, and not because they've never heard anything to the contrary or had their ideas challenged.  That all said, I know my perspective is shaped by being a progressive/liberal gay guy living in San Francisco.  YMMV, depending on your own convictions and circumstances.

Gin1984

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2014, 12:52:55 PM »
Completely agree with you on people who profess absolutes, and also, as a parent of an always-been and always-plans-to-be (but-who-knows-what-might-happen) homeschooled kiddo, I always love hearing from real, live, functioning adults who were homeschooled for the whole deal!

I was homeschooled K-12, partially for religious reasons and partially due to the inner-city-warzone nature of our local public schools. 

I started college early (at a small public university -- very mustachian), and finished with a 4.0.  I attended a top 5 law school, and now I work at a large law firm.  Several of my classmates in my law school were homeschooled, and all did very well.

I had no socialization problems in college -- people didn't know I was homeschooled until I told them, and most seemed surprised.  I'm fairly introverted, but not shy.  If I have "social problems," I'm fine with them, as I generally prefer to be by myself or with small groups of close friends. 

I'm not sure I'd consider homeschooling for my own kids (which are 7-10 years down the road).  Perhaps for a time to allow for travel or a non-traditional educational experience (volunteering, etc.), but I don't have the same religious motivations and I believe in our local public schools. I also think religious beliefs have to exist (and stand or fall) in the secular marketplace of ideas, and I want my kids to have faith because they really believe, and not because they've never heard anything to the contrary or had their ideas challenged.  That all said, I know my perspective is shaped by being a progressive/liberal gay guy living in San Francisco.  YMMV, depending on your own convictions and circumstances.
That is an idea I have rarely heard expressed.  I know this might be a little off topic (so if you want to PM or move it to Off-topic), but could you elaborate on this some?

FunkyStickman

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2014, 01:45:04 PM »
That is an idea I have rarely heard expressed.  I know this might be a little off topic (so if you want to PM or move it to Off-topic), but could you elaborate on this some?

I agree with this. It's not enough to teach your kids your religion, especially if you yourself don't fully understand it. When I explain things to my kids, I make sure to explain the thinking behind it as well, and let them see the process of thinking that went into it. I'm not trying to make them apologeticists, but I want them to at least think it through before coming to a conclusion, the same as I did.

You have to be honest with kids. Most of what people think or know was blindly absorbed, not thought through on their own. I want my kids to be thinkers and philosophers. And if they're smart (which of course I think they are), they'll come to a lot of the same conclusions I did.

stealthrabbit

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #85 on: September 07, 2014, 06:50:21 AM »
Quote
the greatest challenge I faced as an adult was learning to socialize competently, make friends, and interact with people.

Some good point here.

We are now 14 yrs BEYOND homeschooling and I could not be happier with the results.  It was a huge commitment and certainly not always the best choice, but... out kids have done excellent (as have most of the 90 kids in our Home school group)

Socially, homeschool was a huge plus for our kids.  We did lots of volunteer with seniors and worked in the public schools 2x/week as a family.  My Kids were asked to be tutors for adults when they arrived at college @ age 16 because they were socially fit .  They went on to teach / help others and have since garnered very prestigious and competitive community service awards.  (no thanks to me... I don't do politics well.., and have little 'grace / understanding' for the faint of heart (my bad))

My kids were farm kids and we all had businesses so they were used to dealing with business and adults and strangers and strife.  (We also lived overseas for ~3 yrs while homeschooling and traveled a LOT  (i.e. many 4-12 week field trips)

Kids were engaged and planned the travel and finances from day 1.  Curriculum was 'seat-of-the-pants' REAL education.  We did try curriculum's but I think it was a waste of time and money.  Teaching the kids to grow food, weld, build things, manage crops and animals, shop, pay bills... all is pretty valuable.

I am a big advocate of 4H.. though my kids missed that... too bad!  It can be really great!
Many of our homeschool group had their own businesses as kids, and sold them to their siblings or other homeschoolers.  At least 50% attended college (for Free), instead of wasting their time in High School (Running Start... available WA and HI)

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2014, 10:20:33 AM »
Thoughts on memorization of the times table versus using it as a cheat sheet when teaching multiplication?

To my chagrin, my girls are great at memorizing things like 1,000s of Pokemon names/types, but math...not so much :P

tbcg12

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2014, 12:19:55 PM »
Not trying to be rude, just want to see how you all combat this.

I went through public school as well as my little brother. Throughout the years I have met many people who were home schooled whether it was through church, college, sports, or work. However, I never met a kid who had been homeschooled who was "normal" ie. they could jump in and make friends, hold a conversation, network when preparing for interviews, etc. It just seemed like the years of socializing with peers and being around adults who were not family stunted their social awareness and growth.

again, just curious.

waltworks

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2014, 12:45:45 PM »
I personally loathe and despise Pokemon but recognize that those monster-memorizing skills are probably just as useful as memorizing anything else. Good for their brains and more fun than a lot of other stuff.

-Walt

Thoughts on memorization of the times table versus using it as a cheat sheet when teaching multiplication?

To my chagrin, my girls are great at memorizing things like 1,000s of Pokemon names/types, but math...not so much :P

1967mama

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2014, 12:48:07 PM »
However, I never met a kid who had been homeschooled who was "normal" ie. they could jump in and make friends, hold a conversation, network when preparing for interviews, etc.

Tbcg12,
You haven't met my kids then <wink> . I have 3 adult children functioning well as adults. They were homeschooled K-12. Two are working full time in salaried positions and one is in university. You would never know they were homeschooled unless they told you.

Edited for
Typo



mxt0133

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #90 on: October 01, 2014, 12:54:32 PM »
@tbcg12  I don't know how many homeschooling kids your basing this opinion on but on an anecdotal level I have meet many homeschooling kids that have no problem socializing.

Let's examine the word "socializing" for a minute, whenever I hear that phrase used in the context of homeschooling vs schooling, I hear conditioning.  As in teaching kids how to interact in an environment where they are supposed to do whatever they are told by a teacher in a classroom setting and behave in a manner as to not stand out and be different from everyone else, otherwise be labeled not "normal".  So in that context I would agree with you that homeschooled kids would not know how to be "normal" around people that have been socialized in a school setting. 

I would counter that with the possibility to being free to express yourself without fear of being labeled. Having the opportunity to interact with people of various ages, not just a group of same aged individuals. In various social settings, not just a classroom setting.  With a diverse range of cultures, actually promotes social awareness and growth and not stunt it.  I would think that being kept in an environment that limits social interaction, like a classroom, with the same cohort for a year would be the situation that limits social awareness and growth.

That is how I view homeschooling, are there others that homeschool to isolate and protect their children from different points of view or experiences, sure.  But I think they are the exception.

Again the main misconception of homeschooling is that kids are prevented from interacting with peers and adults that are not family and are kept in the basement all day.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2014, 12:58:36 PM »
@thegoblinchief--This is just my two cents, but I think being able to do basic multiplication in your head is an essential mental skill. You don't want them having to whip out their cell phones to use the calculator every time they want to double a recipe.

tbcg12

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2014, 01:55:49 PM »
appreciate the thoughtful replies. Very good points!

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #93 on: October 10, 2014, 10:26:50 AM »
Not trying to be rude, just want to see how you all combat this.

I went through public school as well as my little brother. Throughout the years I have met many people who were home schooled whether it was through church, college, sports, or work. However, I never met a kid who had been homeschooled who was "normal" ie. they could jump in and make friends, hold a conversation, network when preparing for interviews, etc. It just seemed like the years of socializing with peers and being around adults who were not family stunted their social awareness and growth.

again, just curious.
Growing up, I didn't know *anyone* who was homeschooled.  I think I met my first homeschooled person when I was in college.  Nothing unusual about them, from my perspective.

Now that I'm an adult, and now that homeschooling is becoming more mainstream, I've met a lot more homeschooled kids.  They all seem pretty normal to me. Well, no, I take that back--most of them are *better* in social situations than their public-schooled peers.  Of course, that might be a correlation rather than a causation, but that's what I've observed.

Homeschooling today is completely different from what it was 20-30 years ago.

Druid

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #94 on: October 10, 2014, 09:06:15 PM »
I am a 32 year old with no children, but I am planning to have 1 or 2 kids in the next few years. I feel that most of my public school education was a waste of time and I had to make up for it later in life. Ideally I would like to send my "future" kids to preschool and kindergarten and then start home schooling my children until high school. I think during the home schooling phase I would like to keep my kids involved in sports or other activities where they are around kids. Maybe find neighborhoods with kids in the same age group. Or maybe send them to summer camp.

I do want my kids to experience high school. I am hoping that by this age that I have distilled a strong work ethic and good morale compass. I think one strategy of home schooling is to get your children to a level of intelligence where they can excel in a real school environment and develop above average self esteem. I would also like to have my children have their wild social phase before college, where I can monitor it. It seems like letting them loose when they go to college may have dire consequences. Either they will make up for lost time or be socially awkward from missing high school.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2014, 01:28:01 PM »
I am a 32 year old with no children, but I am planning to have 1 or 2 kids in the next few years. I feel that most of my public school education was a waste of time and I had to make up for it later in life. Ideally I would like to send my "future" kids to preschool and kindergarten and then start home schooling my children until high school. I think during the home schooling phase I would like to keep my kids involved in sports or other activities where they are around kids. Maybe find neighborhoods with kids in the same age group. Or maybe send them to summer camp.

I do want my kids to experience high school. I am hoping that by this age that I have distilled a strong work ethic and good morale compass. I think one strategy of home schooling is to get your children to a level of intelligence where they can excel in a real school environment and develop above average self esteem. I would also like to have my children have their wild social phase before college, where I can monitor it. It seems like letting them loose when they go to college may have dire consequences. Either they will make up for lost time or be socially awkward from missing high school.
Our kids go to public school for specials (art, music, PE), and we also have them signed up for activities through the local Parks 'n' Rec.  The nice thing about homeschooling is that you don't HAVE to decide everything now.  We decide year to year whether/how much our kids will attend public school.  It's entirely possible that they'll go to HS, but we don't have to make that decision now.

KES

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #96 on: October 27, 2014, 08:35:03 AM »
I'm thinking about homeschooling my kindergartner next year: she's not being challenged and I feel I could do a better job at home.
However, my newly-developing mustachian reflex clenches up at the thought of what this will do to us financially in the long run.
I'm at home now with the kids, but we always planned for me to go back to work when they are in school. If I homeschool, we lose that future second income.
Am I looking at this the wrong way?

Druid

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #97 on: October 27, 2014, 11:22:37 AM »
@KES

I think that you need to ask yourself what you value more. Early retirement or having the extra time with your daughter and her potentially having a better education at an earlier age. You then need to find the right balance for your goals. You may want to homeschool her for just a couple of years and then start saving money for your early retirement. Or you may feel that 10 years of homeschooling will best prepare your daughter for life, and as a result you may have to work until your 70. Chances are the best thing for your daughter is somewhere in between. Alternatively you could find a part-time job or work full-time and provide additional education to your daughter on the weekends.

Really this is a question about the timing of your "retirement". Most people have to work in life and the usual pattern is you work hard and then get to quit working at the end of life. However a person could technically have a 10 year "retirement" in the middle of their life to spend time with their children, and in exchange have to work to a later age later in life. Obviously 10 years of time off earlier in life will cost you 15 to 20 later in life, because retirement savings are smaller and not compounding.

So again you will have to ask yourself if taking time off now will be more valued than time off later. A family focused individual would probably take time off now. A career/earlier retirement focused individual would probably take off time later. A family focused person would probably provide more emotional support at an earlier age to their children. A career focused individual could potentially provide more financial support with colleges and the odd life event. Only you can decide.

I am planning to have some kind of sabbatical when my child is between the age of 8 and 14. I personally think that your daughter would benefit from a structured homeschool system more in the later elementary school or junior high years. I would choose to go back to work for a few years and let your daughter have the typical goofy social child education which is lower grade elementary school. I would then spend a few years with my child when she had the foundation to begin more advanced topics like basic math, algebra, grammar, and more complex reading.

mxt0133

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #98 on: October 27, 2014, 11:45:50 AM »
Can you elaborate on what you mean by not being challenged?  I think kindergartner to 2nd grade is mostly about getting kids used to the school setting.  Learning how to sit, listen to instructions, and learning how to get along with other kids.  Some academic "learning" does take place but it is mostly repetitive until the later grades.

Some countries don't even start formal schooling until much later, ie. 7 years old like Finnland.  There seems to be a lot of emphasis on having kids get a head start and to cram as much material as young as possible, in the name of competition for good jobs.  Have you seen the film "Race to Nowhere"?  The film covers the stress kids are currently going through in the name of getting into the best universities to get the best jobs.

I myself plan to homeschool, particularly unschool, because I think forcing a child to learn something just because they are in a particular grade without context or interest is inefficient and destroys their natural curiosity.

KES

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Re: Home Schooling
« Reply #99 on: October 27, 2014, 02:42:04 PM »
Sorry, I haven't figured out the whole quote thing yet.

Druid: You make awesome points, and you're probably right, it might be better to pull her out of middle school than elementary school. There are so many cool things we could do then with her any way. Although, we have two younger children as well and are thinking about a 4th.

mxt0133: She's not being challenged in that she's reading fluently (in two languages, I might add), and brings home worksheets with the assignment to "find the letter F." Also, at home she's working on adding and subtracting (can multiply and divide on the abacus, not in her head yet), and is bringing home worksheets asking her to list "what number comes before 8". You are right in that it doesn't necessarily do anyone any good to start cramming stuff into them early. We've just been taking our cues from her and if she's interested in learning something, we help her out. Math has just been interesting to her since age three. My husband is from Eastern Europe and they don't start until 7 there, too. I've looked into the unschooling a bit, and in general have been approaching my time with her at home after and before school like that.

 

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