Belgian Moustachians

[TheSinner]

Hello fellow Belgians (and non-Belgians),

I'm a 32 year old moustachian from Belgium (flanders), big fan of MMM and the lifestyle.
Let's get some discussion started about our Belgian situation :-)

Groetjes


I will post some interesting links and blogs here in this first post, so it's easy to find for everyone. In case you think I should add something, just pm me!

• https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investing_from_Belgium -> contains some good tips about ETFs as well
• https://www.nomorewaffles.com/ -> Belgian blog
• http://financialfreedomsloth.com/ -> Belgian blog

[belgo1964]

Good Morning !
Goede morgen ...

Ja hoor : Ook belg , ook op deze website en forum en ook bezig aan een MMMlifestyle te bouwen :
Ben er nog niet, maar ben wel "onderweg".
Zou leuk zijn om ideeen en plannen te delen vergelijken !
Tot horens

[Rrooze]

Dag landgenoten!

Blij om te zien dat er toch mustachians bestaan in ons landje.
Van waar zijn jullie? Ik van het Kortrijkse.
Al volledig mustachian levensstijl; ik ben 27 jaar en zou kunnen 'pensioneren' op 42. Wil dit natuurlijk nog vervroegen.
Hoor het ook graag van jullie!
Gr,

Rrooze

[kvaruni]

Ons belgen zijn gewoon van nature wat stiller :). Toch al drie personen uit België, dus mezelf ook maar eens voorstellen.
30 jaar, afkomstig uit het Kortrijkse, al een 4-tal jaar part-time gevestigd in het buitenland, en de laatste 2 jaar voltijds in het buitenland.

Oorspronkelijk gestart met het idee om ontslag te kunnen nemen wanneer ik wil, en een huis te kunnen kopen zonder lening. Beide mijlpalen hebben we ondertussen al bereikt. De aandacht ligt nu meer en meer bij het werk doen dat ik graag doe, en rustig naar mijn "pensioen" toe werken.

[Pro_Amateur]

Ik sluit graag aan, ook al ben ik een modderbloedje -nederbelg- uit "de" Limburg. Ben hier geboren en heb hier grotendeels gewoond, behalve tijdens studies in NL en enkele jaren in verre buitenlanden. Werk nu over de grens in NL en ga als een goede halve Hollander elke dag op de fiets daar naartoe. :) 

40 jaar oud, volgens mijn planning nog ongeveer een 9-tal jaren te gaan voordat ik zou kunnen stoppen met werken voor het geld. Weet niet of ik dat ook zou doen, mogelijk blijf ik dan wel 1 dag in de week werken. Er zullen dan ook enkele belastingtechnische dingen van belang zijn.

Om even met mijn recente stokpaardje te beginnen: zijn er mensen die bij een andere provider dan Telenet zitten? Ik vind hun facturen nogal fors worden de laatste tijd en ben aan het denken om over te stappen op een concurrent. Iemand ervaring mee?

[kvaruni]

Om even met mijn recente stokpaardje te beginnen: zijn er mensen die bij een andere provider dan Telenet zitten? Ik vind hun facturen nogal fors worden de laatste tijd en ben aan het denken om over te stappen op een concurrent. Iemand ervaring mee?

Hangt een beetje af welke diensten je afneemt bij Telenet. Mijn ervaring met internet bij andere providers zijn ronduit slecht. Misschien hebben anderen betere ervaring, maar ik blijf ver weg van alles dat ADSL is. Telefoon (mobiel dan) kan je vaak ergens anders goedkoper krijgen, afhankelijk van je verbruik. TV kan je, met enige wil, volledig afsluiten als je overstapt op een dienst zoals Netflix. Eerlijk is eerlijk: als je geen downloadlimiet wil, dan is Whoppa het betere aanbod. De meerprijs die je betaalt bovenop los internet is maar een paar EUR, en je krijgt er direct TV/telefoon bij. Kan je leven met een downloadlimiet, dan is een overstap naar Basic internet, of Internet Fiber 100, wel de moeite. Natuurlijk ontgaat de ironie me niet dat je dan van TV verlost bent, Netflix begint te gebruiken, en ... sneller je downloadlimiet bereikt ... . Veel concurrentie is er jammer genoeg niet, en al helemaal niet op de kabel.

[kvaruni]

1. Ik denk dat je niet makkeijk een pakket zal vinden met zelfde prijs/kwaliteit. Telenet is nog steeds duur, maar je hebt dan wel wat.

2. Ik ben volledig gestopt met pensioensparen. Wat je best doet is om even de rekensom zelf te maken. Bij mij kwam het erop neer dat ik best enkel start wanneer ik 40 wordt. Voor die tijd kan ik het geld beter zelf beleggen in indexfondsen. Gemiddeld gezien ben ik beter af, én ik kan direct aan mijn geld. En dan vergeet ik nog alle andere voordelen, want wie weet hoe belastingen belast gaan worden in 30-40 jaar ... Ik heb dus allemaal dezelfde bemerkingen als deze die jij ook aanhaalt :)

3. Geen ervaring mee, maar omwille van een aantal redenen zal ik of mijn vrouw in de niet zo verre toekomst "huisvrouw/man" worden. Ik zie dat dan ook als een ideale manier om zelf te kijken wat ik wil doen. Financieel is het geen probleem want dat kunnen we makkelijk opvangen. De ervaring van reizen/zelf beginnen/... kan enkel maar bijdragen aan een verdere werkervaring. Ik zou het zeker doen en me hiet verstoppen achter excuses. Mijn persoonlijke ervaring zit er in dat ik al in Canada/Ierland/ en nu de UK geledfd heb. Het is niet altijd makkelijk om zo een grote beslissingen te nemen, maar de levenswijsheid die je er aan overhoudt is onbetaalbaar.

[kvaruni]

4. Dit ruikt naar markt timing. Persoonlijk ben ik meer een voorstander van gewoon je belegprofiel te kiezen, en er dan door dik en dun bij te blijven voor (hopelijk) tientallen jaren. Ik ben zelf begonnen met beleggen zo net voor de 2008 crash. Het enige wat ik die eerste jaren gezien heb is de waarde van mijn aandelen steeds maar verder dalen. Nu sta ik met heel mooie winst, omdat ik zowel hoog als laag gekocht heb. En bovenal: ik ben blijven sparen. Mijn advies zou dan ook gewoon zijn om het geld dat je niet nodig hebt in een indexfonds te steken.

Wat de keuze van belegging betreft: ik beleg in IWDA (de mijne is in EUR?) en Stocks 600. Ik hou er zelf niet van dat US zo oververtegenwoordigd is, en mijn beleggingsprofiel is meer gericht op GDI van elk land. Ik hou daar dan ook aan vast. Euro is nu misschien wat minder, maar niemand weet welke richting we uit gaan in 5 of 10 jaar. Zeker als je van plan bent om in een euroland te blijven denk ik dat het zin heeft om iets meer in Europa te beleggen. Wij kunnen natuurlijk de keuze voor jou niet maken, dus nu moet je zelf wat nadenken en beslissen hoe je het aanpakt.

[FrugalFred]

Goeie middag,

ook Belg uit Vlaanderen, ondertussen 31 en al een jaar of zes zelfstandige.
Ik heb een klein vennootschapje (BVBA) met sinds zeer recent 1 werknemer, alles draait goed en ik ga voor de groei!
Samen met m'n verloofde kan ik dus ook serieus sparen, we zitten makkelijk aan een 55% puur op basis van loon (dividend uit m'n vennootschap tel ik hier niet bij, privé-pensioensparen ook niet en VAPZ en IPT ook niet --> strikt gezien zitten we dus een pak hoger dan 55% maar dit houdt me scherp ;-)).

Tegelijkertijd ben ik ook heel veel bezig met FO en dergelijke, niet dat ik niet graag werk maar ik heb graag veel vrijheid en niet 'moeten' gaan werken is een enorme vrijheid natuurlijk. :-)

Ivm een sabbatical of FI

super! zeker doen! ik heb vorig jaar ook een mini-pre-retirement genomen van 8 maanden, beste beslissing die ik ooit genomen heb!

Nu is het wel een beetje twijfelen hoe ik dit best aanpak (technisch gezien)?
Zijn er Belgische Moustachians die de stap al gezet (of grondig onderzocht) hebben?
Zou ik mezelf aangeven als werkloos, of toch al als zelfstandige registreren? Tips qua belastingen, mogelijke pensioenopbouw... (?)

technisch gezien? zien dat je genoeg cash hebt om een paar leane jaren te overbruggen en leven van intrest. :-)
helaas nog niet de stap kunnen zetten.. nog wat jaren verwijderd van m'n doel..
je zou je idd kunnen aangeven als werkloos en dan een uitkering trekken maar dit botst bij mij een beetje tegen m'n ethische inborst, als je het niet nodig hebt waarom zou je dat dan doen etc. Maar dat is natuurlijk een zeer persoonlijke keuze.
Bij het zelfstandige zijn komen natuurlijk ook kosten kijken maar als je zelfstandige bent kan je natuurlijk wel altijd extra pensioen opbouwen met een IPT of VAPZ, dat doe ik zelf ook.

[Educated_Fool]

Hallo iedereen,

nog een Vlaming (regio Gent) van begin de 30 hier. Een 4 tal jaar mij aant verdiepen in selectief sparen + jaartje naar 't school voor beleggingsadviseur => FI here I come.

1 Teleslet? Ik zou voor Scarlet gaan

2 Pensioensparen? Ben toch voor BE0946411791 gegaan. Je kan via Axa, Rabobank & Paribas voor zover ik weet. Agressief fonds die van 65 naar 155€ is gegaan op 6 jaar tijd. Ok 3% aankoopkosten en hoge lopende kosten maar 30% cadeau van de staat haal je moeilijk in. Ik denk dat veel beleggers minder rendement halen dan dit pensioenspaarfonds.

3 valuta risico IWDA? Ok moest de dollar waardeloos worden, is uw fonds waardeloos. Maar als de dollar 2% zakt ten opzichte van de €, gaat er niet veranderen zolang de waarde van het fonds hetzelfde blijft. Ps Vanguard heeft een All world fonds. Dus minder Amerika en het grote verschil, er zitten opkomende landen in.

4 FI in België technisch gezien? Lastige vraag. Ik sluit mij volledig aan bij FrugalFred. Hou er rekening mee dat je vandaag de dag 30 jaar moet hebben gewerkt voor een minimum pensioen. Zelfstandig of niet.
Misschien enkel de belastingvrije som meepikken elk jaar? Beetje interim voor & 7090€ belastingsvrij! Daar kom je als MMM'er al ver mee.

Vraagje van mijne kant. Wat zien jullie als de goedkoopste manier van wonen in België? Een studio zonder gemeenschappelijke kosten?

mvg

[dougules]

Tous les Mustachians belges sont flamand? :)

[Polaria]

Tous les Mustachians belges sont flamand? :)

Hé bien non :p! J'habite en Grande-Bretagne pour le moment mais je suis de retour en Belgique au mois d’août - j'ai perdu mon emploi en Grande-Bretagne suite a une restructuration (rien a voir avec le referendum hein). Je commence un nouveau job en Wallonie le 1er septembre. Je suis francophone bruxelloise a la base.


I'll go on in English: I am coming back living and working in Belgium in August - I have been an expat in the UK for the last 4 years.

I got a couple of questions for my fellow Belgian Mustachians:

• what changed in Belgium tax-wise and work-wise while I was away? I know that the meal/eco cheques are now electronic and that the rules to accrue holidays have changed but erm apart from that...?
• I am looking into seriously investing when I am back in Belgium, what's your experience?

[dougules]

Tous les Mustachians belges sont flamand? :)

Hé bien non :p! J'habite en Grande-Bretagne pour le moment mais je suis de retour en Belgique au mois d’août - j'ai perdu mon emploi en Grande-Bretagne suite a une restructuration (rien a voir avec le referendum hein). Je commence un nouveau job en Wallonie le 1er septembre. Je suis francophone bruxelloise a la base.


I'll go on in English: I am coming back living and working in Belgium in August - I have been an expat in the UK for the last 4 years.

I got a couple of questions for my fellow Belgian Mustachians:

• what changed in Belgium tax-wise and work-wise while I was away? I know that the meal/eco cheques are now electronic and that the rules to accrue holidays have changed but erm apart from that...?
• I am looking into seriously investing when I am back in Belgium, what's your experience?

En fait je suis Américain, mais je voulais seulement blaguer un peu parce qui tout le monde parlait en flamand.

I'm American.  I was just looking to stir the pot a little since everybody here was writing in Flemish.   

[Polaria]

I'm American.  I was just looking to stir the pot a little since everybody here was writing in Flemish.   

Ah OK, I saw you were living in the US, but I thought you were a Belgian expat.

I don't have any explanation about the lack of French-speaking Belgian Mustachians in this thread. I understand Dutch alright, but since I have been out of Belgium for a few years now, my active skills are a bit rusted :)

[Pro_Amateur]

My guess is that the "francophones" don't understand English that well, so they are less likely to hang out on a forum like this.

[Polaria]

My guess is that the "francophones" don't understand English that well, so they are less likely to hang out on a forum like this.

I can only talk about my experience, this is not what I have seen in practice.  My views are probably biased since I am from Brussels.
I'll see how it is in Wallonia when I come back in Belgium.

[dougules]

My guess is that the "francophones" don't understand English that well, so they are less likely to hang out on a forum like this.

I can only talk about my experience, this is not what I have seen in practice.  My views are probably biased since I am from Brussels.
I'll see how it is in Wallonia when I come back in Belgium.

Just a curiosity, what do the Walloons and Flemish speak between each other (assuming they do at all :) ? 

[Polaria]

Just a curiosity, what do the Walloons and Flemish speak between each other (assuming they do at all :) ?

I have found the main meeting point between the two communities is work.

In my last job in Belgium the rule was that everyone speaks their language and it is assumed that everybody else has the level required to understand; one exception was when someone didn't speak Dutch nor French (we had a fair number of expats) then we used English.

Walloons, like the French, typically find it harder to learn another language. It used to be mainly in French.

I don't think they find it harder, I'd rather say they are less interested in learning languages.

[dougules]

In my last job in Belgium the rule was that everyone speaks their language and it is assumed that everybody else has the level required to understand;

That seems like a fair arrangement.

Walloons, like the French, typically find it harder to learn another language. It used to be mainly in French.

I don't think they find it harder, I'd rather say they are less interested in learning languages.

I don't think French speakers are any worse than English speakers.  I'm an oddball here for my interest in languages.  That being said, I'm over 1000km from any non-English speaking areas aside from a few immigrant neighborhoods. 

[Educated_Fool]

Just a curiosity, what do the Walloons and Flemish speak between each other (assuming they do at all :) ? 

Walloons, like the French, typically find it harder to learn another language. It used to be mainly in French.
More and more it's in English: the English level of the Walloons is increasing, and the level of French of the Flemmish is decreasing.

I totally agree but I see 2 more factors playing.
1 Education: I saw French in school at the age of 10.
2 Television: The nr 1 reason, Me and my friends English came naturally is by watching the same cartoons over and over with subs.  For the French, everything is revoiced.

[Educated_Fool]

Ik heb de indruk dat de huurprijs in Vlaanderen heel laag ligt tov de (koop)prijs van vastgoed. Zeker als je soms Amerikaanse bedragen hoort (veel hogere huur en lagere vastgoedprijs).

Je hebt een punt. Even gerekend als je 200K moet neerlegen voor een recent 1 slaapkamer appartement, kan je eigenlijk voor 666€ iets huren met die 4% SWR. Ik zie het mij wel niet uitleggen aan de familie :)

Ok, merci. Ga ik later eens bekijken. Mijn iShares World fonds is toch vrij hevig US-based heb ik gezien...

No prob. Je kan eens bij NoMoreWaffles gaan kijken. Een Belgische FI Blogger die IWDA combineert met Emerging markets en Europe ETF's om zo een gezonder procentueel geheel te vormen.

• what changed in Belgium tax-wise and work-wise while I was away? I know that the meal/eco cheques are now electronic and that the rules to accrue holidays have changed but erm apart from that...?
• I am looking into seriously investing when I am back in Belgium, what's your experience?

The tax shift! Great 4 the Belgian Moustachians. A better deal Gross to Nett on your pay check. They get the money back with taxes on Sugar contained beverrages, Alcohol (just go over the border). They now tax you 21% on your electric bill and add 100€. It a shame it doesn't matter if youre a low consumer or living with 10 on 1 adres.

I find investing hard as a Moustachian because you focus big time on saving money. Image that you see that MSCI World index as the way to go because you beat 9/10 investors they say. Imagine that you have 100K invested and lose 57K in 1,5 year. Still counting those penny's? Still confindence in your strategy? Don't underestimate the emotinal side.
If I had the opportuniteit, I would kick the 18 year old myself in the nuts and say; Acc ETF's are the way 2 go and believe in Consumer staples , small cap value and gold as a team.
Food 4 thought?
Bogle: Common sense on mutual funds
swedroe: what wall street doesnt want you to know
Lederman Klein: global asset allocation
Ferri: all about Asset allocation
Gibson: Asset allocation
Bernstein: the four pillars of investing
bernstein: the intelligent asset allocator
and 4 me the most inspiring: rowland lawson: the permanet portfolio


 

[Polaria]

Walloons, like the French, typically find it harder to learn another language. It used to be mainly in French.
More and more it's in English: the English level of the Walloons is increasing, and the level of French of the Flemmish is decreasing.

I totally agree but I see 2 more factors playing.
1 Education: I saw French in school at the age of 10.
2 Television: The nr 1 reason, Me and my friends English came naturally is by watching the same cartoons over and over with subs.  For the French, everything is revoiced.

In answer to your points may I point out:

1 Education:  I started learning Dutch in third primary grade so I started at the age of 7/8; this was the rule in Brussels 30 years ago. The emphasis in language education was then put on Dutch, English being secondary and included much later - I started to learn English in third secondary grade.

2 Television: if you consider the two French-speaking channels La Une and La Deux, they used to broadcast the same movie/series, the French revoiced version for La Une and the original subtitled version for La Deux. I don't know if they are still doing that.

My family is probably an oddball compared to the general French-speaking Belgian population; my closest relatives speak between two and five languages and have all lived at least a few months abroad.

[Polaria]

• what changed in Belgium tax-wise and work-wise while I was away? I know that the meal/eco cheques are now electronic and that the rules to accrue holidays have changed but erm apart from that...?
• I am looking into seriously investing when I am back in Belgium, what's your experience?

The tax shift! Great 4 the Belgian Moustachians. A better deal Gross to Nett on your pay check. They get the money back with taxes on Sugar contained beverrages, Alcohol (just go over the border). They now tax you 21% on your electric bill and add 100€. It a shame it doesn't matter if youre a low consumer or living with 10 on 1 adres.

• I heard about the tax shift but I always thought this would end up as a symbolic amount. I don't have much trust in our various governments implementing noticeable tax reductions!
• I very rarely drink alcohol and full-sugar beverages, so not much impact for me, just buy the stuff when on promotion (Colruyt ftw!!)
• Ah electricity cost , this is not going to get better with all our ageing and capricious nuclear power plants...

I find investing hard as a Moustachian because you focus big time on saving money. Image that you see that MSCI World index as the way to go because you beat 9/10 investors they say. Imagine that you have 100K invested and lose 57K in 1,5 year. Still counting those penny's? Still confindence in your strategy? Don't underestimate the emotinal side.
If I had the opportuniteit, I would kick the 18 year old myself in the nuts and say; Acc ETF's are the way 2 go and believe in Consumer staples , small cap value and gold as a team.

It is very true but not only for Belgian Mustachians; Belgians are born savers and quite risk-adverse hence the colossal amounts in savings accounts. *Edit* a short research indicates a total amount of about €260 billion.

I would think that a worldwide index is diversified enough, if everything crashes at the same time everywhere like in your example, I think you'd have bigger fishes to fry than thinking about your investments.

I was more wondering if investing is simply worth it cost-wise in Belgium (you know how much Belgium loves taxes...)

I have found the investment platform MeDirect and I was thinking to start investing in two accumulation ETFs - one bond and one equity, I have still to determine how to optimize that cost-wise...

I'll keep a cash cushion for a deposit to buy a property; I am considering buying a property in Liège in the next few years with 3 flats or 2 flats/1 shop;  I'd live in one of the flats and rent the rest of the house. That would add some nice diversification. I am child-free and single; I can live in 40m² without any issue.

Of course I'll have to seriously research the implications of my musings when I come back in Belgium in a few weeks.

Food 4 thought?
Bogle: Common sense on mutual funds
swedroe: what wall street doesnt want you to know
Lederman Klein: global asset allocation
Ferri: all about Asset allocation
Gibson: Asset allocation
Bernstein: the four pillars of investing
bernstein: the intelligent asset allocator
and 4 me the most inspiring: rowland lawson: the permanet portfolio

Thank you for this, I will look into these books!

[Educated_Fool]

I have found the investment platform MeDirect and I was thinking to start investing in two accumulation ETFs - one bond and one equity, I have still to determine how to optimize that cost-wise...

Shitty platform without much choise. If you want to sell, you have to reset it every day. I invested 3 times since december with them cause they gave up to 500€ bonus with new investments.
Binck isn't the cheapest, but has great review's. There are brokers like degiro who lend you're investments to others parties so watch out. On paper you're the owner even if the broker fails but it add's risk.

It's not quite the time for bonds because the ECB is buying them with printed money so very low returns for the risk. Normally all bond etf's aren't Acc.

Belgium is an ETF (stocks) tax haven for now(if you keep them 6 month's). Buy acc etf's from Ireland cause they don't charge you the tax from source. So the dividends are added tot the value of the etf taxfree. Big difference with an etf or stock, lets say nestle from swiss. They charge you 35% in Swiss for the dividend and on the 65% that's left, Belgium taxes you 27%.

4 a plan that suits you, try backtesting with https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/ or https://portfoliocharts.com/

I am considering buying a property in Liège in the next few years with 3 flats or 2 flats/1 shop;  I'd live in one of the flats and rent the rest of the house. That would add some nice diversification.

I'll probably go for a 2nd flat myself at some point in the future but I'm not a fan of a huge amount of money in one city, in one country, in one part of the world. I recently discoverd that if something goes wrong with our indeed ageing and capricious nuclear power plants (watched by terrorists), you're not insured at all like say germany. Within day's, Belgian banks go bust, Belgian goverment goes bust so by by savings & home. Only the debt you can keep. Sure far fedged but I kinda like the Harry Brown's mindset to be prepared to a lot of wost cases financially. History is full.

[Polaria]

I have found the investment platform MeDirect and I was thinking to start investing in two accumulation ETFs - one bond and one equity, I have still to determine how to optimize that cost-wise...

Shitty platform without much choise. If you want to sell, you have to reset it every day. I invested 3 times since december with them cause they gave up to 500€ bonus with new investments.
Binck isn't the cheapest, but has great review's. There are brokers like degiro who lend you're investments to others parties so watch out. On paper you're the owner even if the broker fails but it add's risk.

It's not quite the time for bonds because the ECB is buying them with printed money so very low returns for the risk. Normally all bond etf's aren't Acc.

Belgium is an ETF (stocks) tax haven for now(if you keep them 6 month's). Buy acc etf's from Ireland cause they don't charge you the tax from source. So the dividends are added tot the value of the etf taxfree. Big difference with an etf or stock, lets say nestle from swiss. They charge you 35% in Swiss for the dividend and on the 65% that's left, Belgium taxes you 27%.

4 a plan that suits you, try backtesting with https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/ or https://portfoliocharts.com/

Thank you for the tips, as I said I am still at the musing stage - I only spent one afternoon researching so far. I just happened to start my research with MeDirect but I will look into Binck's range and the links you've provided.  In one sense I am not sure that a plethora of investment choices is ideal for me to move forward due to analysis paralysis. My idea of investing is to go into mostly passive mode otherwise I feel I will never start.

I am considering buying a property in Liège in the next few years with 3 flats or 2 flats/1 shop;  I'd live in one of the flats and rent the rest of the house. That would add some nice diversification.

I'll probably go for a 2nd flat myself at some point in the future but I'm not a fan of a huge amount of money in one city, in one country, in one part of the world. I recently discoverd that if something goes wrong with our indeed ageing and capricious nuclear power plants (watched by terrorists), you're not insured at all like say germany. Within day's, Belgian banks go bust, Belgian goverment goes bust so by by savings & home. Only the debt you can keep. Sure far fedged but I kinda like the Harry Brown's mindset to be prepared to a lot of wost cases financially. History is full.

Well I started considering this when I realised you can buy a 3-flat house in Liège for the same price as a single flat in Brussels (which was my initial plan). I still have to build a more detailed case study to see if it's worth it.

[Educated_Fool]

In one sense I am not sure that a plethora of investment choices is ideal for me to move forward due to analysis paralysis. My idea of investing is to go into mostly passive mode otherwise I feel I will never start.

I'm probably pushing you to run and you just took  your baby steps. You're on the wright track with passive investing so maybe start with a book from the godfather of passive investing John Bogle, founder of vanguard. Then maybe you can look in to https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolios/ were you can find the most common passive investing portfolio's.

[Polaria]

In one sense I am not sure that a plethora of investment choices is ideal for me to move forward due to analysis paralysis. My idea of investing is to go into mostly passive mode otherwise I feel I will never start.

I'm probably pushing you to run and you just took  your baby steps. You're on the wright track with passive investing so maybe start with a book from the godfather of passive investing John Bogle, founder of vanguard. Then maybe you can look in to https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolios/ were you can find the most common passive investing portfolio's.

Well I know the theory - I am an actuary but my expertise lies in the modelling of insurance liabilities and not in the asset side at all.

My initial idea is to start similarly to the Classic 60-40 Portfolio - hence my previous reference to two acc ETFs, one bond, one equity.

[Polaria]

Well I started considering this when I realised you can buy a 3-flat house in Liège for the same price as a single flat in Brussels (which was my initial plan). I still have to build a more detailed case study to see if it's worth it.

For real estate, location is one of the most important attributes of a property. People in general are not that logical with their money. I've heard some crazy prices from Brussels. But after the terrorist attacks prices are going downhill...

My plan from now on is to live near my job - I hate commuting and don't have a driver licence.
This is why I initially thought it would be Brussels as most actuarial jobs are there.  My next job is eventually in Liège so this is where I will live. I will buy only in a couple of years if I am firmly set on buying so I have not been following property prices lately.

You're saying you want to do passive investing, so be aware that renting out a property will introduce extra hassle... I haven't really made the business case but with tax deductions and if you're willing to share a house it can become quite interesting.
I'm a bit too lazy for real estate investing, but might start to research it further once FIREd.

I agree that it is an extra hassle; this is why ideally I'd only become a landlord if
a) I am occupying a part of the property myself and
b) for 1! property;

I'd say two tenants would be manageable for me. Now of course who knows what the future holds and where I'd be in let's say 5 years.

[EdenHazard]

!Reporting for duty!

[Polaria]

!Reporting for duty!

Welcome!
I understand from your first few posts that you are a Belgian expat who recently moved to Switzerland, and that you've been investing in ETFs for a long time. 
Are you only investing in the ETF iShares Core MSCI World UCITS?

[EdenHazard]

I used to have (a lot) more ETF's. Several years ago I did an unhealthy amount of research, reading investments books and financial reports. But the more I knew, the more I discovered investing is all about educated guesses and hoping for the best.
My favorites were
http://www.ishares.com/nl/particuliere-belegger/nl/producten/251861/ishares-msci-europe-ucits-etf-acc-fund
http://www.ishares.com/nl/particuliere-belegger/nl/producten/253712/ishares-euro-stoxx-50-b-ucits-etf-acc-fund
http://www.ishares.com/nl/particuliere-belegger/nl/producten/253743/ishares-sp-500-b-ucits-etf-acc-fund
http://www.ishares.com/nl/particuliere-belegger/nl/producten/251903/IUSE
http://www.ishares.com/nl/particuliere-belegger/nl/producten/264659/ishares-msci-emerging-markets-imi-ucits-etf
http://www.ishares.com/nl/particuliere-belegger/nl/producten/251868/ishares-msci-japan-eur-hedged-ucits-etf
http://www.ishares.com/nl/particuliere-belegger/nl/producten/253735/ishares-msci-pacific-ex-japan-ucits-etf-acc-fund
https://www.ishares.com/uk/individual/en/products/251381/ishares-msci-europe-minimum-volatility-ucits-etf?siteEntryPassthrough=true
Lyxor UCITS ETF Stoxx Europe 600 Food & Beverage

When the move to Switzerland was decided, I changed my entire portfolio so now I only have iShares Core MSCI World UCITS. Because fiscal rules between multiple countries is a difficult matter, I wanted to make my life as easy as possible.

One could ask: Is this a good approach, owning only 1 index tracker? I can defend both arguments pro and contra. MSCI World has a good spread over all geographies and industries, and a low TER. But at the same time I have a risk that there is a Bernie Madoff scenario with iShares (though very unlikely)

[EdenHazard]

Ik heb de indruk dat de huurprijs in Vlaanderen heel laag ligt tov de (koop)prijs van vastgoed. Zeker als je soms Amerikaanse bedragen hoort (veel hogere huur en lagere vastgoedprijs).

This is one of my stokpaardjes in life, I can discuss about it for hours. Given the baksteen in de maag of the Vlaming, it is everyones dream to own a second property. I am sure you have heard it a dozen times: "The renter/tenant pays my mortgage" and "After my mortgage is paid off, I live for free, the renter needs to pay eternally".  This is because most people don't understand the meaning of opportunity costs: the capital that is fixed in your house, could've been used to get higher returns.

The biggest headache for an owner is finding long term reliable tenants, because almost every 'normal' Belgian buys a small house/appartement as soon as he can. The side effect from this, is that renting a house in Belgium is cheap compared to buying one. I know examples where you can rent a house worth €400 000 for 950 euros, i.e. €11 400/year. With the same €400 000 in stocks and 4% withdrawal, this gives you €16000.
I did the calculations (and prof. Gert Peersman agrees), and financially speaking, renting your entire life is better than buying a house, if you invest all your money in stocks.

A very controversial subject, because Vlamingen are risk averse, love real estate, and consider the stock market a casino. I have not been able to convince a single person in real life of this financial case, even the most analytical engineers and Masters in Finance, because we are drenched with the fact that "huren = weggesmeten geld".

[Educated_Fool]

renting your entire life is better than buying a house

Ik geef u gelijk in de 9 op de 10 gevallen. Maar wat als je voor een studio/ 1 slaapkamer appartement gaat zonder veel eigen kapitaal? Ik heb iets gezien in het antwerpse. 120 000€ gerenoveerd en verhuurd voor 550€. Stel, ruim gerekend, incl alle kosten 150 000€  & 15 000 moet je er zelf leggen.
lening 135 000€ aan 2% = 681.79/mnd
dus 131.79 maandelijks (681.79-550) op de beurs aan 7% plus die 15000€ startkapitaal = 125 311€
Ok je zit met het KI en wat onderhoudskosten links en rechts maar langs de andere kant zit je met de woonbonus.
Ik zie vastgoed een tikkeltje meer opbrengen boven inflatie door het tekort aan bouwgrond terwijl 7% boven inflatie op de beurs niet zo evident is.

[Educated_Fool]

MSCI World has a good spread over all geographies and industries

The big contra's in my eyes
18.55% finantials
60% US
No emerging markets
Isn't Vanguard FTSE All-World UCITS ETF a bit better 4 you?
53% US
Has EM
21.6 finantials :(
same TER

[EdenHazard]

It would be if Vanguard offered it in a accumulating version, currently they only have distribution.

[Educated_Fool]

It would be if Vanguard offered it in a accumulating version, currently they only have distribution.

Ah so it also pays to go for ACC in Swiss. It's a shame vanguard doesn't go for accumulating etf's like Ishares.

[EdenHazard]

As in Belgium, Switserland also doesn't have a capital gain tax. But I do buy & hold, so it doesn't really matter. I will come back to Belgium before selling anything

[Educated_Fool]

I did the calculations (and prof. Gert Peersman agrees)

Merci voor de Link van Peersman. Al verschillende boeiende werken en interviews gezien ondertussen.

Ik ben wel nieuwsgierig wat uw visie is op die aankoop simulatie studio van 150 000 op 20jr i.v.m. huren.

[EdenHazard]

I wouldn't rent a 120 000 studio for 550 long term, dan is kopen beter. De huurprijzen in het lagere segment zijn % hoger tov de aankoopwaarde omdat er veel verloop is en kans op wanbetaling. Een woning van 3* 120 000 euro wordt niet verhuurd voor 3*550 euro.

[Educated_Fool]

Thx Hazard. Now I need everyone's opinion. What's the fastest way in Belgium to reach FI in Belgium with an average Income after taxes of 2100€ living on your own?  I think a lot of Belgian rat's, 20 year in the race are realising that maybe they're probably not even half way.  So my plan B would be, buy a small appartment and save 2/3 of your income and 10 years in the future, you'll reach your big ass holiday.
(considering SWR of 4% and 5% return above inflation on your investments)

Cost	Year	% total
food & drinks 8€/day	2 920	34,8%
garbage	25	0,3%
KI (home owning tax)	280	3,3%
water (22 m3)	138	1,6%
Electricity & gas	399	4,8%
maintenance heating	60	0,7%
provinciebelasting (regional tax)	33	0,4%
gemeentelijke belasting (local tax)	75	0,9%
personenbelasting (income tax)	0	0,0%
health insurance	123	1,5%
fire insurance	328	3,9%
hairdresser	150	1,8%
hygiene	150	1,8%
basic internet proximus 27,5€/month	330	3,9%
gsm scarlet red 8€/month	96	1,1%
mutualiteit hziv + zorgkas (health care related)	50	0,6%
'lux' 270€/month	3 240	38,6%
Yearly total	8 397
Montly total	700

note; my 'lux' category is 4 'not living like a munk' expenses like travelling, tech, clothing, exp. food & drinks, hobby's

[financialfreedomsloth]

Hello,

I am a 41 year old natural frugal person who was living a pretty mustachian life (without knowing it). Then got in a serious relationship, bought a house, was living less frugal but kept the decent stash from the frugal living (I love investments so I never touched the stash). Discovering money moustach was like coming home for me! It got me all fired up and now I want to try to achieve financial independence at 45. Thinking about doing my own blog (I have another one for the last 6 years about our move out of the city and buying an old farm house so I know what it takes). Would it be of interest to other Belgian mustachians? perhaps make it into a little Belgian/european corner. I know of nomorewaffles and I like his blog but he hasn't been updating that much lately + our circumstances are pretty different. He is a young, single person renting. I am older, in a relationship and own a house so it would be from a different perspective. Would do the articles in English because I do like an audience (I am exhibitionistic that way, lol) but I could add a dutch forum and off course dutch comments would be ok there.

It would be to keep me disciplined (I am lazy by nature, hence the nick name) but would love to have some good quality interactions with other people as being mustachian isn't exactely mainstream and I have learned not to talk to much about financial matters with other persons as my opinions are often too 'extreme' for most people.

[financialfreedomsloth]

Thx Hazard. Now I need everyone's opinion. What's the fastest way in Belgium to reach FI in Belgium with an average Income after taxes of 2100€ living on your own?  I think a lot of Belgian rat's, 20 year in the race are realising that maybe they're probably not even half way.  So my plan B would be, buy a small appartment and save 2/3 of your income and 10 years in the future, you'll reach your big ass holiday.
(considering SWR of 4% and 5% return above inflation on your investments)

Cost	Year	% total
food & drinks 8€/day	2 920	34,8%
garbage	25	0,3%
KI (home owning tax)	280	3,3%
water (22 m3)	138	1,6%
Electricity & gas	399	4,8%
maintenance heating	60	0,7%
provinciebelasting (regional tax)	33	0,4%
gemeentelijke belasting (local tax)	75	0,9%
personenbelasting (income tax)	0	0,0%
health insurance	123	1,5%
fire insurance	328	3,9%
hairdresser	150	1,8%
hygiene	150	1,8%
basic internet proximus 27,5€/month	330	3,9%
gsm scarlet red 8€/month	96	1,1%
mutualiteit hziv + zorgkas (health care related)	50	0,6%
'lux' 270€/month	3 240	38,6%
Yearly total	8 397
Montly total	700

note; my 'lux' category is 4 'not living like a munk' expenses like travelling, tech, clothing, exp. food & drinks, hobby's

your mortgage is probably going to prevent you from saving 2/3 of your income. On the other hand renting can be expensive to.

Living on your own, I think it is going to be very difficult. I got some luck as when I was still living on my own I had pretty cheap rentplaces (last one was 350 euro a month for a cité-huisje but that was about 10 years ago) And then I had about 5 years living with the girlfriend and only having to pay her 200 euro rent (she bought when the house prices were pretty cheap so her mortgage in total was only 357 euro). My half of the mortgage is now about 465 euro. keeping you living cost low is definitely going to help achieving FI. The usual route is off course getting a roommate to split the fixed costs. You could live anti-kraak (http://be-nl.cameloteurope.com/) it is cheap but a lot of time you have to share the location with other people also. Perhaps a holiday home (recreatiegebied - denk chalets) where you can stay permanently and put your domicile at your parents place could be a cheap place to live. A co-worker of my wife rents a nice, big, chalet in the -big- garden of an elderly couple for not that much money. But looking at your budget, adding in a realistic 700 euro in mortgage or rent. Well, then you can only save 1/3 of your income. A roommate could get you to about 50% saving rate. And I agree with your budget. Living a decent life in Belgium is going to take around 1.000 euro a month. So if you want to save 2/3 you are going to have to increase your income. Or reconsider getting a roommate.
But I do not agree with your "I think a lot of Belgian rat's, 20 year in the race are realising that maybe they're probably not even half way". I really want to try to get there with just 20 years of working. Sure, the high tax rate works against us, but there are also a lot of things in our favour (low health costs, social security). And you know what they say: when the going gets tough, the mustachians get more badass!!

[RedBaron3]

I did a 6-month expat (from US) assignment in Belgium, living in Gent and splitting work assignments between Temse and Erembodegem.  I took some Dutch lessons in advance but I was nowhere near conversational for work conversations.  Luckily, the project team was made up of locals from Flanders and consultants from Wallonia, Netherlands, and Germany.  The German consultants were the key to us always speaking English in meetings since they couldn't speak Flemish or French. 

I found it very easy to be frugal in Belgium since all the stores were closed by the time I got home from work.  I had a free apartment so I could cook at home and basically stashed my $80/day expense stipend to pay off a car loan, my wife's student loans, and European travel (stipend was conditional on me not being in the US, so I still got paid for vacation days I took in Europe).  That 6 month assignment changed my financial life.

[Educated_Fool]

Thinking about doing my own blog (I have another one for the last 6 years about our move out of the city and buying an old farm house so I know what it takes). Would it be of interest to other Belgian mustachians?

Damn right! The more inspiring European roads to FI, the better. Like http://wegnaarzelfvoorziening.blogspot.be/

But I do not agree with your "I think a lot of Belgian rat's, 20 year in the race are realising that maybe they're probably not even half way". I really want to try to get there with just 20 years of working. Sure, the high tax rate works against us, but there are also a lot of things in our favour (low health costs, social security). And you know what they say: when the going gets tough, the mustachians get more badass!!

Srry but i didn't make myself clear. What I was trying to say is that your average middle aged Joe is realising that early retirement (goverment supported) doesn't look so promissing any more, after 40 years of work. Lets say your 40 and making 2100€/month and your new main goal is FI. Why not sell your (clown)car and that 300K home in the middle of nowhere with 150k left in debt and buy an appartment instead without a loan?

[Educated_Fool]

I found it very easy to be frugal in Belgium since all the stores were closed by the time I got home from work.  I had a free apartment so I could cook at home and basically stashed my $80/day expense stipend to pay off a car loan, my wife's student loans, and European travel (stipend was conditional on me not being in the US, so I still got paid for vacation days I took in Europe).  That 6 month assignment changed my financial life.

Thx 4 supporting our economy !#*?!!
Just kidding. Nice job(s).
It reminds me of the MMM post; http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/11/are-you-giving-the-shaft-to-your-future-self/ "It still blows my mind each Monday that I never have to go to work: I can thank the 25-year-old version of me for that."

[financialfreedomsloth]

Sorry but i didn't make myself clear. What I was trying to say is that your average middle aged Joe is realising that early retirement (goverment supported) doesn't look so promissing any more, after 40 years of work. Lets say your 40 and making 2100€/month and your new main goal is FI. Why not sell your (clown)car and that 300K home in the middle of nowhere with 150k left in debt and buy an appartment instead without a loan?

Well a lot of USA blogs speak about downsizing the house or moving closer to your work to save on the commute so yes it would definitely help to achieve FI. But this is something personal (having children, if you are a couple do you both work in the same city, family nearby, we Belgians have a brick in our stomach and usually buy for life ...) and real estate transactions do have a high transaction cost attached to them here in Belgium. Buying our house and the mistake it was from a financial viewpoint (but not from a 'enjoying your life' viewpoint) would definitely be one of the posts I would put up.
The bigger problem I see is that with an average wage in Belgium it takes about 20 years of working to get to FI. For most people who went to university that would be around 45 (kinda acceptable). If you only start at 40, well ok you probably allready have something saved up so it might only take you 15 years. that would put you at 55 years old. Starting at 40 years, it would indeed take some major life changes to be able to reach Fi before you are 50. It would make for an interesting post on the blog ...

[Amber Tree]

Hello,

I have been following the FIRE community for a while, started a blog and hope to be free in 2029. Yes, still a long way to go! Yet,  way, sooner than my pension documents tell me :-)
I am soon 40 years old, married and have 2 kids.
We invest now via ETFS, have a big part in mutual funds (I know...) and some tak21 from before. These last 2 do not receive extra money!

I am curious to hear about the approaches the Belgian people take to be FI. One of my plans is to work less (take regular long holiday for travel with the kids) and work a few years longer. Having quality time now is worth a lot to me!

[Amber Tree]

In one sense I am not sure that a plethora of investment choices is ideal for me to move forward due to analysis paralysis. My idea of investing is to go into mostly passive mode otherwise I feel I will never start.

I'm probably pushing you to run and you just took  your baby steps. You're on the wright track with passive investing so maybe start with a book from the godfather of passive investing John Bogle, founder of vanguard. Then maybe you can look in to https://portfoliocharts.com/portfolios/ were you can find the most common passive investing portfolio's.

My personal steps in investing bigger amounts was via funds from mijnkapitaal.be. I know not everyone likes the costs of active managed funds. I see them as a part of my nest egg that follows a different strategy than my ETF portfolio. On paper, it is not the best solution. They do bring a piece of mind to me.
For the indexing part, I go 100 pct equity. I use 3 acc ETFs, all in EUR: IWDA, CESL and EMIM. This covers approx the whole world and provides a small bias to Europe.

[Educated_Fool]

The bigger problem I see is that with an average wage in Belgium it takes about 20 years of working to get to FI.

True, if not the biggest problem. Let's say you can save 50% in Belgium and 75% in the US @ 5% Rate of return above inflation. That's 16.6 years compaired to 7.1 years. I see myself not taking a vacation abroad for 7 years but 16.6 year is a different thing.

[Educated_Fool]

I am curious to hear about the approaches the Belgian people take to be FI.

I like to work with baby steps/goals to FI

1 buy an apartment, check
2 optimise  down payment to 3050€ / year (for max tax advantage), check
3 a 13K unlucky emergency fund (I'm not superstitious or am I), check
4 get a Financial Adviser degree  (for an investment strategy and the confidence 2 follow it), check
5 have more money in different accounts then debt, 2017?
6 have the ability to pay off debt without touching the pensionfund & emergency fund, ...
7 invest 250K in etf's (in today's money) for FI, ...
8 work for 8K(if still possible) of untaxed income yearly , ...

I only put my next goal on a timeline for motivation purposes.