Author Topic: Belgian Moustachians  (Read 41861 times)

TheShinyHorse

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #200 on: July 27, 2018, 01:37:18 PM »
Pannenkoek: another idea I had regarding the health insurance: if you work an interim contract for at least one day each year, you will be covered for the next year I believe. So there's an easy way to avoid paying the 3k/year.
I researched it a bit more and I think I will receive a pro rata pension. so if I work 12 years, it will be 12/45 (yes, this will be peanuts). If you work for 30 years, your pension will be upped to at least the minimum pension.
Oh, I looked a bit deeper into it, and you're right. The number of total active days is counted and then divided by the equivalent on 45 years: https://www.onprvp.fgov.be/NL/profes/calculation/career/fraction/paginas/default.aspx

I was confused by all the little different rules they have regarding pensions (vervroegd pensioen, minimum pensioen) and starting mixing up some concepts. My previous posts about this were also wrong.

  • Minimumrecht per loopbaanjaar: starts when you work at least 1/3th for at least 15 year. If you work a little bit extra for 3 year, you can apply for that. Will probably add pennies to your monthly cheque.
  • Gewaarborgd minimum pensioen: at least 30 years working at least half-time. Confusing name because it's neither "guaranteed", nor a minimum (pro rata of this minimum still applied)
  • Vervroegd pensioen: Probably won't apply in the future any longer: https://www.socialsecurity.be/citizen/nl/pensioen/je-pensioen-als-werknemer/vervroegd-pensioen-werknemer
  • Rustpensioen, pensioenbonus, aanvullend pensioen, pensioensparen etc etc etc
Here you can find a good example for a typical employee: https://www.onprvp.fgov.be/NL/profes/calculation/example/paginas/default.aspx

I'm hoping they don't count accumulating index funds as "income" since there aren't any dividends. In that case I would pay 0.
They say: "De bijdrage die je als verblijvende moet betalen, is afhankelijk van je bruto belastbaar gezinsinkomen van 2018." But there isn't any 'bruto belastbaar inkomen' as accumulating (stock) funds aren't taxed :) (not sure if I understand all of this correctly)
No, nothing to worry about. I think dividends wouldn't count either, cause you don't pay "inkomstenbelasting" on them, rather "roerende voorheffing" (not counted with your income).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 02:02:44 PM by TheShinyHorse »

financialfreedomsloth

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #201 on: August 05, 2018, 08:54:46 AM »
Interesting thread guys. I'm a fellow mustachian/boglehead from Belgium aiming to be FI by age 35.

Read through the thread and learned a bunch of useful stuff. So if I understand it correctly there are 2 big disadvantages if I would retire at 35 and never work again:

  • No pension at 67. Sucks a bit. So even though I've worked for 12 years and paid my taxes I don't receive any pension? Doesn't seem fair. Wait, think I misunderstood. I'll still get 12/45 right?
  • No health insurance anymore. But I could get a 'statuut verblijvende in BelgiŽ' and get comprehensive health insurance by paying a quarterly fee: https://www.cm.be/media/Bijdrage-verblijvenden_tcm47-45304.pdf. Is this correct? Not sure how the 'jaarinkomen' is calculated if your only source of income is selling accumulating index funds but this would mean max 725Ä per quarter currently.
35 is pretty ambitious for Belgium. Care to do a guest post on my blog explaining how you hope to get there?

Pannenkoek

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #202 on: August 07, 2018, 01:03:02 PM »
Interesting thread guys. I'm a fellow mustachian/boglehead from Belgium aiming to be FI by age 35.

Read through the thread and learned a bunch of useful stuff. So if I understand it correctly there are 2 big disadvantages if I would retire at 35 and never work again:

  • No pension at 67. Sucks a bit. So even though I've worked for 12 years and paid my taxes I don't receive any pension? Doesn't seem fair. Wait, think I misunderstood. I'll still get 12/45 right?
  • No health insurance anymore. But I could get a 'statuut verblijvende in BelgiŽ' and get comprehensive health insurance by paying a quarterly fee: https://www.cm.be/media/Bijdrage-verblijvenden_tcm47-45304.pdf. Is this correct? Not sure how the 'jaarinkomen' is calculated if your only source of income is selling accumulating index funds but this would mean max 725Ä per quarter currently.
35 is pretty ambitious for Belgium. Care to do a guest post on my blog explaining how you hope to get there?

I read your blog! Pretty funny and interesting to read. I must say I recognize myself in you as I'm not particularly ambitious (some even say lazy) myself. Maybe even lazier as I have no ambition to start meddling with options and all that. Seems like too much work.

Where I differ from you is that I'm not really that voyeuristic :). But I will tell you my (embarrassing) secret: I'm 30 years old and still live with my parents. This means I can transfer about 90% of my (pretty average) salary every month and put it into an index tracker (IWDA). I also started pretty young. Started reading MrMoneymustache and jlcollinsnh when I was 24 and started investing at 25. According to my calculations I will have about 500K at 35 assuming decent market returns (5-6%). Of course if I would FIRE at 35, this would mean a pretty no frills lifestyle at 15-20K per year so not sure if I will pull the trigger then.

financialfreedomsloth

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #203 on: August 09, 2018, 11:15:46 AM »
Well, living at the parents definitely helps the savings rate!
I am living (and aiming) for a 20K lifestyle and I find my life to have more than enough frills! Fun doesn't have to be expensive. Also, when you have all the time in the world you can get a lot of stuff a lot cheaper. Effort + time = money.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 04:13:16 AM by financialfreedomsloth »

Pannenkoek

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #204 on: August 11, 2018, 02:49:42 AM »
Well, living at the parents definitely helps the savings rate!
I am living (and aiming) for a 20K lifestyle and I find my life to have more than enough frills! Funs doesn't have to be expensive. also, when you have all the time in the world you can get a lot of stuff a lot cheaper. Effort + time = money.

If I have 500K I'll probably live on 15K the first years just to be sure in case of a poor sequence of returns in the beginning. If I see that even then my portfolio is still growing I'll loose the reins a bit.

But 15K would include:

- rent: lets say 750 per month or 9K per year
- health insurance: 3K per year? Forgot again that I probably don't have to pay because of no income. Damn you goldfish memory...
- utilities/food: 3,5K per year? (150 utilities and 150 food per month)
(- 0,15% wealth tax from the Belgian government: 750Ä per year :p)

So this is 15,5K 12,5K just covering my basic needs. I can probably lower that rent if I find someone that wants to live with me. In that case, I'll have about 7K for discretionary spending. Not too shabby. Maybe I can even buy a car and get children. Am I missing something important in my expenses?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 12:32:39 PM by Pannenkoek »

financialfreedomsloth

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #205 on: August 20, 2018, 04:25:28 AM »
Well, living at the parents definitely helps the savings rate!
I am living (and aiming) for a 20K lifestyle and I find my life to have more than enough frills! Funs doesn't have to be expensive. also, when you have all the time in the world you can get a lot of stuff a lot cheaper. Effort + time = money.

If I have 500K I'll probably live on 15K the first years just to be sure in case of a poor sequence of returns in the beginning. If I see that even then my portfolio is still growing I'll loose the reins a bit.

But 15K would include:

- rent: lets say 750 per month or 9K per year
- health insurance: 3K per year? Forgot again that I probably don't have to pay because of no income. Damn you goldfish memory...
- utilities/food: 3,5K per year? (150 utilities and 150 food per month)
(- 0,15% wealth tax from the Belgian government: 750Ä per year :p)

So this is 15,5K 12,5K just covering my basic needs. I can probably lower that rent if I find someone that wants to live with me. In that case, I'll have about 7K for discretionary spending. Not too shabby. Maybe I can even buy a car and get children. Am I missing something important in my expenses?
I think you got most of it. Another way to lower the rent would be to get creative in your living arrangements: http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20180817_03669559

For a friend I did the numbers for a small build on a recreatie domein met permanent bewoning mogelijkheid. Terrain can be had for around 30.000 to 40.000 and building something on it can be done for 60.000 euro (or 5.000 euro if you go the bus route) Which would put you at a 100.000 euro to sort out you living arrangements for the rest of your life. Granted, domiciliation has to be somewhere else but parents seem a logical solutions there. And since you got it cheap, there are always people looking for cheap places to living for a couple of months when you want to rent it out and travel.

Big advantage is that you normally can get a mortgage for this which at current mortgage rate essentially lets you borrow money for it interest free (if you take into account the tax rebate). It also means you can earn 10.500 euro tax free each year (tax free 7.500 + 3.000 euro mortgage deduction)

financialfreedomsloth

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #206 on: August 20, 2018, 04:28:04 AM »
Oh yeah. the 100K in property also doesn't count for the wealth tax calculation. With your living arrangement sorted out (in a way that is cheaper than renting) you can lower your stash to 400.000 and avoid the 750 euro wealth tax ;-)

Pannenkoek

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #207 on: August 26, 2018, 04:05:00 AM »
I think you got most of it. Another way to lower the rent would be to get creative in your living arrangements: http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20180817_03669559

For a friend I did the numbers for a small build on a recreatie domein met permanent bewoning mogelijkheid. Terrain can be had for around 30.000 to 40.000 and building something on it can be done for 60.000 euro (or 5.000 euro if you go the bus route) Which would put you at a 100.000 euro to sort out you living arrangements for the rest of your life. Granted, domiciliation has to be somewhere else but parents seem a logical solutions there. And since you got it cheap, there are always people looking for cheap places to living for a couple of months when you want to rent it out and travel.

Big advantage is that you normally can get a mortgage for this which at current mortgage rate essentially lets you borrow money for it interest free (if you take into account the tax rebate). It also means you can earn 10.500 euro tax free each year (tax free 7.500 + 3.000 euro mortgage deduction)

Interesting, not sure I want to live in a bus though :). Another possibility is to move to Wallonia or the Ardennen. Should be a lot cheaper there compared to Flanders I think. Just have to polish up my French a bit... Limburg is also a bit cheaper than other parts of Flanders I think.

FinancialHacker

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #208 on: September 25, 2018, 12:55:27 PM »
Hi,

Brand new here! coming from Antwerp we have the age of 34 with 2 kids :D ready to start MMM style living :D

Greetz

Cube

ItsALongStory

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #209 on: September 30, 2018, 11:01:26 AM »
37yo living in the US currently but originally Belgian (zuid West-Vlaanderen) and thinking about retirement in or around Ieper (wife loves that place) or in Wallonia (stunning nature and cheap to live).

Kind of got a late start to the retirement planning life but am in an OK position with a lot of opportunity to save in the next 5-10 years. Worst case I want to retire at 55yo with aspirational timeline more like 45yo.

I need to learn a lot more about retirement planning for a move back to the homeland though.

schoenbauer

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #210 on: February 09, 2019, 03:48:37 AM »
Dear Belgian Moustachians,

I have recently moved to the region of Brussels (from Germany) and I'm now trying to set-up a Belgian brokerage account. I learnt that DeGiro is quite cheap (but not under Belgian legislation) and Binck is also okay (under Belgian legislation). Any recommendations from your side?

Also I  read on the Bogleheads wiki ("Investing in Belgium") that dividends are taxed 30%, but accumulating funds don't tax the re-invested dividends and capital gains are also not taxable (when the fund is held for more than 6 month). Is that still true? It seems incredible to me that capital gains are not taxed, when labour is taxed so heavily here (am I missing something?). Therefore an Irish, accumulating ETF seems to be the best choice for Belgian investors...?

Thankful for any leads :)

Pannenkoek

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #211 on: March 23, 2019, 03:43:16 AM »
Dear Belgian Moustachians,

I have recently moved to the region of Brussels (from Germany) and I'm now trying to set-up a Belgian brokerage account. I learnt that DeGiro is quite cheap (but not under Belgian legislation) and Binck is also okay (under Belgian legislation). Any recommendations from your side?

Yes, degiro is the cheapest. Some ETF's in their core selection can be bought/sold without transaction costs. You also have to declare the account to the Belgian government as it is a foreign account. I use Binck and Bolero myself which are also quite cheap.

Also I  read on the Bogleheads wiki ("Investing in Belgium") that dividends are taxed 30%, but accumulating funds don't tax the re-invested dividends and capital gains are also not taxable (when the fund is held for more than 6 month). Is that still true? It seems incredible to me that capital gains are not taxed, when labour is taxed so heavily here (am I missing something?). Therefore an Irish, accumulating ETF seems to be the best choice for Belgian investors...?

Thankful for any leads :)

It's true: capital gains & dividends aren't taxed for accumulating stock funds. Bond funds are taxed however.

tinderstick

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #212 on: March 27, 2019, 01:22:07 PM »
Beste Mustashians,

Ik ben een jonge dertiger uit het Gentse (nog een, inderdaad), die net MMM heeft ontdekt. Feest.
Ik ben volledig mee met de visie, zuinig leven, veel DIY, stoÔcijnse visie op geluk, etc. Maar heb weinig kaas gegeten van beleggen. Ben me beginnen inlezen op fora zoals deze, maar ik moet zeggen dat het redelijk overweldigend is en ik niet goed zie waar ik kan beginnen.
Kan iemand me op weg zetten? Hoeveel moet ik weten van beleggen om de 4% te halen met passieve beleggingen, zonder verder heel hard de markt te volgen? Wat moet ik precies weten? "beleggen in indexfondsen" klinkt gemakkelijk, maar het blijft redelijk abstract als je nieuw bent in de wereld van beleggen.

Merci!

Pannenkoek

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #213 on: March 30, 2019, 06:09:42 AM »
Site van de bogleheads is wel een goede plek om te beginnen:

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started (niet alles is even relevant zoals 401K. Dat is iets typisch Amerikaans)
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investing_from_Belgium

In BelgiŽ kan je het beste ETF's kopen bij een online broker (zoals binck, bolero, degiro etc.). Voorbeelden van ETF's:

Aandelen:
-ishares core msci world (IWDA)
-ishares msci world small cap (IUSN)
-ishare core msci emerging markets imi (EMIM)

Obligaties
-ishares core global aggregate bond - eur hedged (AGGH)

tinderstick

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #214 on: March 31, 2019, 01:42:20 PM »
Ah, super!
Heel handig, merci!!

Viracocha

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #215 on: April 25, 2019, 03:16:20 AM »
story about a Belgium guy achieving FI in Dubai:
https://www.thenational.ae/business/money/dubai-resident-i-retired-at-37-after-achieving-financial-independence-in-two-years-1.665613

looks like he learned about the concept via the boglehead forum

Haha, John is my friend. He discovered FI at one of the first meetups I organized in 2015, had a massive aha moment, changed his life completely and "retired" 2 years later. I am the second guy in the article :-)

I have been organizing free meetups/talks to teach people about investing and FI. Here the last one I did: https://www.simplyfi.org/single-post/2018/06/19/Dubai-Meetup-26-How-to-Plan-for-Financial-Independence-and-Early-Retirement---by-Sebastien-Aguilar-including-recording-and-slides

I am on my way back to Belgium and would like to help grow the FI community here. Would you be interested in joining? I have started a FI Facebook group as I find it is a much easier way to build a community using FI FB groups. The group is closed so people from outside can't see anything of what is happening inside: www.facebook.com/groups/FIBelgium

I would love to meet you guys when I am back in Belgium!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 03:57:03 AM by Viracocha »

TheShinyHorse

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Re: Belgian Moustachians
« Reply #216 on: April 27, 2019, 04:14:21 AM »
Anyone worried about Deutsche Bank? Saw this article, which is very bleak about their future: https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/business/deutsche-bank-christian-sewing/index.html

I have some money in their DXET fund, not sure if I should re-invest it in another fund to be safe?
https://www.finanzen100.de/etf/db-x-trackers-dj-euro-stoxx-50-etf-1c_H1396034427_21324299/

I took a quick look, and it seems to be underperforming towards the market as well: http://www.morningstar.nl/nl/etf/snapshot/snapshot.aspx?id=0P0000HNXD
I bought this fund because I wanted to be in a European fund, but most of my money is into IWDA (world fund), which has performed a lot better... So it might be the time to make a switch?

Haha, John is my friend. He discovered FI at one of the first meetups I organized in 2015, had a massive aha moment, changed his life completely and "retired" 2 years later. I am the second guy in the article :-)

I have been organizing free meetups/talks to teach people about investing and FI. Here the last one I did: https://www.simplyfi.org/single-post/2018/06/19/Dubai-Meetup-26-How-to-Plan-for-Financial-Independence-and-Early-Retirement---by-Sebastien-Aguilar-including-recording-and-slides

I am on my way back to Belgium and would like to help grow the FI community here. Would you be interested in joining? I have started a FI Facebook group as I find it is a much easier way to build a community using FI FB groups. The group is closed so people from outside can't see anything of what is happening inside: www.facebook.com/groups/FIBelgium

I would love to meet you guys when I am back in Belgium!
Would be nice to have a meetup! Good idea.