Author Topic: WWYD? Boss "gifting" an hour w/ (sketchy?) financial planner to all employees  (Read 2685 times)

StarBright

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So for context, I am my small company's defacto HR person. That is not my job, but it is a function I serve.

Boss/Owner of the company has decided to switch our 401ks over to a company with more "Active involvement." He is also "gifting" all of the employees an hour with a financial planner.

So this financial planner is my boss's personal financial planner, and will also be administering the 401ks. And a big red flag was waived for me when the planner announced that everyone would put their financial info into a specific app before they met with him.

I googled - and sure enough! - the app is a tool used by an insurance company to steer you to purchasing Whole Life policies.

Many of my coworkers are VERY excited about this hour of free financial planning. As the company HR person I can't give any advice. But this feels decidedly un-kosher.

Is there a way to say anything before people start meeting with him that won't get me in trouble? Do I just let it go and mind my own business?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 11:26:54 AM by StarBright »

nereo

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  • Does the financial advisor have the best interests of the employees he meets with at heart (i.e. is he a fiduciary)
  • What is the boss/company gaining - if anything - by switching over the employee’s 401(k)s to a new company?


StarBright

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  • Does the financial advisor have the best interests of the employees he meets with at heart (i.e. is he a fiduciary)
  • What is the boss/company gaining - if anything - by switching over the employee’s 401(k)s to a new company?

1. I asked boss and boss said "Of course!" - but I don't know if he knows what that means. I'm thinking of going ahead and asking that question myself.

2. Boss says lower fees on 401k and better access to funds and savings vehicles (should have access to vanguard funds and 401k AND Roth401ks).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2023, 02:04:22 PM by StarBright »

solon

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  • Does the financial advisor have the best interests of the employees he meets with at heart (i.e. is he a fiduciary)
  • What is the boss/company gaining - if anything - by switching over the employee’s 401(k)s to a new company?

1. I asked boss and boss said "Of course!" - but I don't know if he knows what that means. I'm thinking of going ahead and asking that question myself.

2. Boss says lower fees on 401k and better access to funds and savings vehicles (should have access to vanguard funds and 401k AND Roth401ks).

This is almost certainly false. Individual planners like this have higher fees than just going with Vanguard/Fidelity directly. And in addition to the plan administration fees, be sure to check out the fund fees. Often they will tack an extra percentage on to the expense ratio.

lhamo

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I know you probably aren't quite where you want to be money-wise yet, but if I were you this would be enough to make me quit.

I am so tired of your boss.  I can't imagine how you must feel....

Sanitary Stache

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Could you print out a list of questions to ask a financial planner and leave them in the break room?

Are you a fiduciary is going to be on any decent list. These are hard questions to ask without practice.

GilesMM

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The FP may help some people, I suppose.


It's really not your call, though; The Boss has decided.

MustacheAndaHalf

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You can search around Vanguard's website or contact them, and ask the expense ratio for a company of your size on a 401(k) plan.  You probably already know that ETFs or mutual funds in the plan will have 0.03% annual expense ratio.

Then ask the same questions of the plan your boss decided on.

I suspect your company has nobody in their legal department who looks at 401(k) plan documents.  Once a company grows large enough to have that, they don't take risks like having the boss pick the 401(k) plan based on his friendships.

StarBright

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I know you probably aren't quite where you want to be money-wise yet, but if I were you this would be enough to make me quit.

I am so tired of your boss.  I can't imagine how you must feel....

LOL - yeah. Bless his heart, he just always has to be the person who knows the "right" way to do something.  The stock market and inflation of 2022 have really set me back. It was going to be tight but doable before this inflation spike. I haven't ruled out turning in my notice at the end of this year, but it is looking a little out of reach.

I am looking at the 401k changeover as a way to sock more money into Roths though, having a little more accessible cash will be a good thing. 

And I did get another job offer last month! So good to know that in a pinch I can find something else. I didn't take it because it was a pay cut and a very long commute, but it felt good to get the offer.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 08:54:47 AM by StarBright »

nouseforausername

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Sounds like an hour off your normal job duties to remind yourself how to avoid / resist sales pitches.

This also happens at public sector jobs too, re: Sketchy lunch time "financial planning" seminars, etc. No worries. Life is full of scams.

StarBright

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You can search around Vanguard's website or contact them, and ask the expense ratio for a company of your size on a 401(k) plan.  You probably already know that ETFs or mutual funds in the plan will have 0.03% annual expense ratio.

Then ask the same questions of the plan your boss decided on.

I suspect your company has nobody in their legal department who looks at 401(k) plan documents.  Once a company grows large enough to have that, they don't take risks like having the boss pick the 401(k) plan based on his friendships.

I like all this - I'm thinking I'll take the first hour with this dude and then I can know the pitch ahead of time and be prepared when questions come from my coworkers.

And yeah - no legal department, very small company, 35 people. I flag potential legal/contract issues and then boss' brother is "our" lawyer so I ask boss to send stuff to his brother.


It's really not your call, though; The Boss has decided.

This is a good point - I care too much sometimes. I need to let it go!

Could you print out a list of questions to ask a financial planner and leave them in the break room?

Are you a fiduciary is going to be on any decent list. These are hard questions to ask without practice.
This is good. I wouldn't leave it in the breakroom, but I know people will ask me what sort of things they should be asking. So I can be ready with a list of "well, as an individual (not your HR person) - these are the kinds of questions I'm planning on asking."

ATtiny85

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A fiduciary can still have life-sucking fees and not afoul of the law.

LifeHappens

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Oh, StarBright. Your boss never ceases to amaze. And his brother is the company's attorney?

This article is geared more towards individuals meeting with a potential financial planner, but some of the questions are relavant:
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/investing/10-questions-ask-financial-advisor

JAYSLOL

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Ugh.  I hate this, sorry to hear, sounds like the sketchy FA smooth talked your boss who just doesn’t know any better.  I hope the meeting isn’t as bad as you expect.  Unfortunately I don’t don’t have any kind of retirement plan through work, it’s a small company, just under 20 people, of which I’m also the company HR guy by default even though I hate that part of the job.  While we don’t have a company retirement plan, I can relate a bit, it has worried me for years that our accountant is always into some scheme or another, it’s been a constant stream of MLMs he’s trying to get people to join, and worst of all some horrible gold-based crypto pyramid scheme that he lost a bunch of money in a few years ago.  Sounds like you have a good plan to go in first to get sense of what everyone is in for.  I would approach the owner directly if the FA is as sketchy as it appears. 

SilentC

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The people here citing vanguard expense ratios do not know how this works.  For a small company it is quite expensive on a per employee basis to administer a plan.  Some very small plans can offer index funds including Vanguard and to cover plan expenses the expense ratios can be above 1% on these funds because the employer does not want to cover any of the fixed costs of reporting, compliance, surety bonds etc.  It might be cheaper for the company or for most employees because this plan administrator gets to sell lucrative insurance to some employees which helps covers these costs.  Edit-  additionally your company may want to hire a financial advisor on the plan for CYA purposes because there is fiduciary responsibility to investment selection.  My current company is frugal AF but we have an advisor for liability purposes, but it’s a bigger org so relatively cheap insurance.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 11:11:27 PM by SilentC »

ChpBstrd

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I would advise the boss to give this financial planner strict parameters about what they can and cannot do. As a person with a compliance-related / liability-reducing job, this is your duty.

E.g. if the company facilitates this financial planner putting a bunch of people into mis-priced assets for the planner's benefit, the company might share some liability when a group of the employees wises up. Likewise, if the financial planner puts people into risky things, like crypto funds or junk bonds, employees might wonder why the boss was so enthusiastic about it. At a minimum, management could will lose credibility if they're using their employees to let other people do sales pitches for shit products on company time.

Some lines in the sand might include:

-no pitching crypto assets
-no encouraging junk bonds
-no leveraged products
-no encouraging 401k loans
-full disclaimers about how stocks and bonds can go down or up
-emphasis on demonstrating how one's savings rate is a bigger determinant of wealth than their asset selection or timing (e.g. Bob, the world's worst market timer)
-no funds with >1.5% ERs.

@SilentC is correct. Running company retirement plans is expensive and risky. Somebody has to be compensated to do it.

The problem is that some financial advisors take their compensation in the form of steering people into risky and expensive funds, with kickbacks to the financial advisor. This shifts the cost burden from the company to the employees, while simultaneously reducing the returns experienced by employees.

StarBright

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Okay- re: fiduciary.

Advisor is fiduciary to Boss, Boss is the plan trustee, and advisor will be advising on plan assets.

That sounds? ? ? maybe okay? I think. The fees on the funds are fine- they are right where they should be (under .5%)

Also, I was concerned that the advisor's company was going to be the custodian on our retirement plans, but they will be held by a trust company. I was hoping for a more standard, big brokerage (I prefer my money somewhere that is too big to fail), but this is better than I was expecting.

But they are also 100% trying to sell us life insurance in the one on ones. I told Boss , in writing, that he needs to make sure the advising is separate from all of our benefit stuff. I have  informed the employees via email that the advising meetings are not required and have nothing to do with participating in our 401k benefits. That might be as far as I can go as the HR person.

Still feels sketch though. Maybe because my boss tends to sneak a toe over the line sometimes.


ATtiny85

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Thanks for the follow-up. It could certainly be worse.

Being a fiduciary to the boss is a long way from being a fiduciary to the employee. in fact, one could probably come with all sorts of ways to make that go in the wrong direction.

Good job communicating and trying to do right by the employees.

MustacheAndaHalf

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I told Boss , in writing, that he needs to make sure the advising is separate from all of our benefit stuff. I have  informed the employees via email that the advising meetings are not required and have nothing to do with participating in our 401k benefits. That might be as far as I can go as the HR person.

Still feels sketch though.
I am not a lawyer, but in this "sketch" situation, would it make sense to keep some notes about roughly what you communicated and the date?

StarBright

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Thanks for the follow-up. It could certainly be worse.

Being a fiduciary to the boss is a long way from being a fiduciary to the employee. in fact, one could probably come with all sorts of ways to make that go in the wrong direction.

Good job communicating and trying to do right by the employees.

Yeah - the way I understand it is that being the trustee makes Boss the fiduciary to the employees.

I'm not thrilled. I've complained here before that Boss tries to time the market for us - like he holds our funds for months at a time and seems to always deposit them the day or two before a market drop. I think he might just forget about it until he sees the market on an upswing and then he remembers, and then it drops within a few days. Boss was also all in on NFTs so. . .

I've looked into whether or not I can convert my 401k into a Roth without severing employment, and I can't, because Boss already notified our current plan of the impending severing. I'm bummed. But it doesn't feel like there is much I can do except hope no one is dishonest or an idiot.

StarBright

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I told Boss , in writing, that he needs to make sure the advising is separate from all of our benefit stuff. I have  informed the employees via email that the advising meetings are not required and have nothing to do with participating in our 401k benefits. That might be as far as I can go as the HR person.

Still feels sketch though.
I am not a lawyer, but in this "sketch" situation, would it make sense to keep some notes about roughly what you communicated and the date?

oh yeah- I'm putting everything in writing

StarBright

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Just thought I'd update.

Have now met with the advisor and he doesn't seem sketchy BUT he doesn't have a lot of experience managing work retirement funds, he is an individual investment advisor. He has started adding the retirement fund thing for some of his investment clients.

After a few bungles with the rollover I decided to move my 401k to a money market while this guy figures things out.

At one point our accounts were set to black out on April 15, and then May 1 for the 30 day rollover period. Something happened and now it is looking like early June.

With the whole debt ceiling showdown I'm affeared that my account will freeze during a huge drop and with a 30 day window, I'd buy back in on the upswing.

I know that is probably stupid - but with the dates for our freeze changing, and this guys's seeming unfamiliarity with how 401ks work I'll feel better for the coming month to have mine sitting in cash.

FWIW- we are leaving all of other accounts exactly where they are.

getsorted

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Until last year, I worked for a franchise of a national financial advisory company. Administering 401(k) plans was overseen very strictly by the parent company, and not very profitable for the individual advisor, so they tended to view them as a way to make connections to potential new clients and sell advice plans (which have strict agreements) or as an opportunity to sell other products like whole life insurance. Administering retirement plans generally got left to the lowest guys on the totem pole at my practice because it wasn't super profitable and was a lot of work (usually hours on the phone with corporate and mountains of paperwork with the old company).

What qualifications does this advsior even have? Anything less than a CFP or CFA and I wouldn't even talk to them.

MustacheAndaHalf

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... BUT he doesn't have a lot of experience managing work retirement funds ...
After a few bungles with the rollover ... At one point our accounts were set to black out on April 15, and then May 1 for the 30 day rollover period. Something happened and now it is looking like early June.
... with the dates for our freeze changing, and this guys's seeming unfamiliarity with how 401ks work ...
This might be the ideal time to propose Vanguard as a solution to this mess.  I'm guessing everyone invovled is frustrated and knows it isn't going well.
https://investor.vanguard.com/accounts-plans/small-business-retirement-plans

It might be a relief to have a company that has done this many times before, who also has a known track record and low expense ratios.

SeattleCPA

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I know you probably aren't quite where you want to be money-wise yet, but if I were you this would be enough to make me quit.

I am so tired of your boss.  I can't imagine how you must feel....

+1

StarBright

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... BUT he doesn't have a lot of experience managing work retirement funds ...
After a few bungles with the rollover ... At one point our accounts were set to black out on April 15, and then May 1 for the 30 day rollover period. Something happened and now it is looking like early June.
... with the dates for our freeze changing, and this guys's seeming unfamiliarity with how 401ks work ...
This might be the ideal time to propose Vanguard as a solution to this mess.  I'm guessing everyone invovled is frustrated and knows it isn't going well.
https://investor.vanguard.com/accounts-plans/small-business-retirement-plans

It might be a relief to have a company that has done this many times before, who also has a known track record and low expense ratios.

I did try this, but Boss loves his guy. /shrug