Author Topic: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation  (Read 243053 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1900 on: November 27, 2023, 10:23:36 AM »
Alibaba planned to raise money from the IPO of its cloud business, which it called off owing to tensions between the U.S. and China.  They decided to dump their quantum computing research - not reduce, but end the entire thing.  I'm not an expert in quantum computing, but this sounds like a company with experience deciding it lacks promise when they did cost cutting.

maizefolk - Your example shows a roughly 10x gap between ACH and credit card transaction volume, where the smaller credit card transactions are at a disadvantage.  For Bitcoin and Lightning Network, transaction size may be one factor, but it is not enough by itself to explain a roughly 3000x difference in transaction volume.

Bitcoin has many mining pools, where large groups of miners transfer fractions of bitcoin back and forth among each other when they find a block (generating many transactions with zero economic value).
"zero econonomic value" is your opinion - not a fact.  Up above I cited sources for my data - can you do the same for your claim of "zero economic value"?

The reality is that groups of miners earn a blockchain reward together, and then divide the profits.

I get that.

I'm saying that these transactions generate churn for bitcoin, but it's a closed loop.  Miners group together, find a bitcoin, split it among themselves.  Zero economic value because no economic action has taken place.  Nothing has been bought, sold, or traded.  It's an ouroboros.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1901 on: November 27, 2023, 10:40:35 AM »
Alibaba planned to raise money from the IPO of its cloud business, which it called off owing to tensions between the U.S. and China.  They decided to dump their quantum computing research - not reduce, but end the entire thing.  I'm not an expert in quantum computing, but this sounds like a company with experience deciding it lacks promise when they did cost cutting.
With computing, the advances are exponential with or without the Chinese. In a June report, 20 supercomputer centers around the world reported their AI results, three of them delivering more than an exaflop. That's a quintillion or a billion-billion operations per second. I was reading how Bitcoin has a vulnerability window just waiting to be exploited. There will be a fierce race between encryption and hacking as supercomputing costs come down, access to AI becomes mainstream and the field of cyber-security will explode for sure. How can a static technology of BTC implementation keep up with all of this, I do wonder about that. I am sure there is some decentralized agency looking at it, LOL.
Quantum computing theory goes back 55 years according to Wikipedia, and actual qubit computers at least 25 years.  If the "advances are exponential" for 25+ years, why hasn't it moved beyond research projects to something useful?

"1998 ... A working 2-qubit NMR quantum computer"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_quantum_computing_and_communication

Are you aware Bitcoin mining uses specialized hardware?  Supercomputers aren't getting more powerful in isolation - they benefit from advances in chip technology.  The same advances also benefit Bitcoin miners, who use newer specialized hardware to get the most power for the least electricity.  After a number of years, old Bitcoin hardware simply isn't competitive.

The vulnerability of Bitcoin is well known - you don't need AI to figure it out.  It's called a 51% attack.  A newcomer would need to exceed the entire computing power of all miners in order to take control of Bitcoin.  But consider the financial incentive of someone in this situation:
(1) send themselves all Bitcoin because they can out-hash everyone else.  People would abandon Bitcoin, or rewrite the code to ignore the new cheater.  Either way, the cheater winds up with nothing for their effort.
(2) they join the existing blockchain, and get half of all block rewards, which is worth $6 billion/year at present (half of 6.25 x 6/hour x 24/day x 365 x $37k/BTC).

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1902 on: November 27, 2023, 11:02:32 AM »
Alibaba planned to raise money from the IPO of its cloud business, which it called off owing to tensions between the U.S. and China.  They decided to dump their quantum computing research - not reduce, but end the entire thing.  I'm not an expert in quantum computing, but this sounds like a company with experience deciding it lacks promise when they did cost cutting.
With computing, the advances are exponential with or without the Chinese. In a June report, 20 supercomputer centers around the world reported their AI results, three of them delivering more than an exaflop. That's a quintillion or a billion-billion operations per second. I was reading how Bitcoin has a vulnerability window just waiting to be exploited. There will be a fierce race between encryption and hacking as supercomputing costs come down, access to AI becomes mainstream and the field of cyber-security will explode for sure. How can a static technology of BTC implementation keep up with all of this, I do wonder about that. I am sure there is some decentralized agency looking at it, LOL.
Quantum computing theory goes back 55 years according to Wikipedia, and actual qubit computers at least 25 years.  If the "advances are exponential" for 25+ years, why hasn't it moved beyond research projects to something useful?

"1998 ... A working 2-qubit NMR quantum computer"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_quantum_computing_and_communication

Are you aware Bitcoin mining uses specialized hardware?  Supercomputers aren't getting more powerful in isolation - they benefit from advances in chip technology.  The same advances also benefit Bitcoin miners, who use newer specialized hardware to get the most power for the least electricity.  After a number of years, old Bitcoin hardware simply isn't competitive.

The vulnerability of Bitcoin is well known - you don't need AI to figure it out.  It's called a 51% attack.  A newcomer would need to exceed the entire computing power of all miners in order to take control of Bitcoin.  But consider the financial incentive of someone in this situation:
(1) send themselves all Bitcoin because they can out-hash everyone else.  People would abandon Bitcoin, or rewrite the code to ignore the new cheater.  Either way, the cheater winds up with nothing for their effort.
(2) they join the existing blockchain, and get half of all block rewards, which is worth $6 billion/year at present (half of 6.25 x 6/hour x 24/day x 365 x $37k/BTC).

Exactly right.

Also, if Bitcoin is exploitable by a new tech, then all digital security is exploitable the same tech. A bad actor could wreak havoc across all digital finance, across all digital everything.

Also, the chance of a fully-formed Quantum Bitcoin Miner suddenly plugging in out of the blue seems extremely remote to me. It seems very likely that there would be time for some pre-emptive defensive action.

maizefolk

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1903 on: November 27, 2023, 12:18:51 PM »
The issue of quantum computing has a lot less to do with mining and a lot more to do with the potential to crack the private keys of many bitcoin wallets given knowledge of their public keys.

Once you have the private key for a bitcoin wallet you can spend the money however you like. And, unlike a 51% attack, it won't be at all obvious to anyone other than the person whose bitcoins you took that anything untoward has happened. You could probably go quite a while just targeting high balance wallets from the early bitcoin era (wallets that no one has touched in a decade indicating they likely forgot the wallet existed or lost access to the private key) before anyone really noticed.

That said, achieving that in reasonable amounts of time would require quantum computers with hundreds of thousands to millions of qubits. In 25 years the number of qubits in the fastest quantum computers have grown about 500x. But we're still at least three orders of magnitude away from quantum computers that would actually be a problem for bitcoin.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1904 on: November 27, 2023, 12:51:06 PM »
The issue of quantum computing has a lot less to do with mining and a lot more to do with the potential to crack the private keys of many bitcoin wallets given knowledge of their public keys.

Once you have the private key for a bitcoin wallet you can spend the money however you like. And, unlike a 51% attack, it won't be at all obvious to anyone other than the person whose bitcoins you took that anything untoward has happened. You could probably go quite a while just targeting high balance wallets from the early bitcoin era (wallets that no one has touched in a decade indicating they likely forgot the wallet existed or lost access to the private key) before anyone really noticed.

That said, achieving that in reasonable amounts of time would require quantum computers with hundreds of thousands to millions of qubits. In 25 years the number of qubits in the fastest quantum computers have grown about 500x. But we're still at least three orders of magnitude away from quantum computers that would actually be a problem for bitcoin.

That's a fair point. I disagree that nobody would notice transactions from long-dormant wallets though. The onChain analysts would instantly be all over it with much excitement.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1905 on: November 27, 2023, 01:00:35 PM »
If I'm understanding it correctly, the selling point is that BTC or equivalents are stores of wealth where the value proposition is that it is funcitonally finite and not controlled by a central bank with the ability to adjust monetary policy. The selling point is not that it is an efficient means of conducting daily transactions.

This seems to fit a libertarian philosophy in which less control and more free market is better at the macro level. I do wonder about the implications of a meaningful amount of money shifting into BTC though since it would effectivley be out of circulation and out of use. There is a societal value in having money in circulation and being used for transactions. Having financial tools like banks that can take that money that- for an individual- is in reserve/savings and put it to use to fund mortgages and small business loans and the like is better for the economy in my opinion. Having a store of wealth that takes that money out of circulation is not a selling point for a better economy. It just feels like hoarding. Or am I missing some hidden ability of BTC to be used in these ways?

My position on this is as follows (described here in terms of what WILL happen' - just to be concise):

Bitcoin has the potential to be a complete money, ie. a Store of Value, a Unit of Account and a Means of Exchange.

SoV:
Bitcoin adoption will be an S-curve. We are well down in the lower regions of the S so it's no surprise that things are quite volatile and jumpy. As progress is made up the S, and especially as things start to flatten out along the top, volatility will reduce. This will make it a much more appealing SoV to a much wider audience. For some it's ok now, for most it's not.

UoA:
As Bitcoin's purchasing power becomes more stable, and as adoption widens, it will naturally make sense to start valuing things in BTC.

MoE:
Bitcoin is a good MoE for signicant value over distance and, especially, across borders.
For small value, Lightning/MoE use is starting in the less stable nations and will spread to the more stable. Not necessarily replacing local fiat currencies, but could crowd out weak fiats.

Depending on your circumstances it could be any and all of those things right now or it could be any and all of those things in the future as things develop along the various paths described.


For me, right now:
It's SoV and a Speculation on wide adoption and consequent big increase in value.
In the future it might become sufficiently widely accepted in my region that I use it as MoE.
In the future it will probably make more sense to me to value things in BTC, ie. use as UoA.
I have a pretty good expectation of these things happening in my lifetime.
I suggest that my adoption path generally applies to most wealthy people in stable nations.

For someone in Nigeria/Venezuela/Argentina, etc.:
It might be useful as MoE right now (vs a weak and/or rapidly-debasing fiat).
It's useful as an SoV even for short-term cash holding in a high inflationary environment.
Maybe no significant Value to Store, so limited SoV at the moment - but, maybe in the future . . .
Likewise UoA.
I suggest this adoption path generally applies to poor people in less stable nations.

Everyone will choose their own adoption path, and all will be different. It will probably be somewhere between the 2 examples above - and most people reading this will probably follow something like my path.


I think the 'hoarding' thing is overblown.
Bitcoin will probably ultimately approx. track global GDP, so big gains won't last forever.
It will still be possible to profitably lend money; either via a trusted bank, or maybe p2p lending takes off, etc.
It will still be profitable to invest in good businesses.

I have every confidence that even the richest die-hard HODLers will want to live well and reap at least some rewards rather than hoard their gains and die mega-rich while living on a pittance. Mustachianism/frugality is even less popular than Bitcoin in the mainstream !

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1906 on: November 27, 2023, 04:26:00 PM »
We need a drinking game for how many times we can go through the same set of arguments.

Actually maybe we don't, I spend enough money on beer already.

-W

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1907 on: November 27, 2023, 04:50:42 PM »
We need a drinking game for how many times we can go through the same set of arguments.

Actually maybe we don't, I spend enough money on beer already.

-W
And if people talk past each other, you drink a double.

Telecaster

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1908 on: November 27, 2023, 11:12:23 PM »

If the worst you can say about coinbase is that they've had to pay a fine to regulators (like almost any bank of any significant size), that's sounds like pretty good news to me.

Do you see the logical fallacy here?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1909 on: November 28, 2023, 01:36:20 AM »
The issue of quantum computing has a lot less to do with mining and a lot more to do with the potential to crack the private keys of many bitcoin wallets given knowledge of their public keys.
Mining, private keys, bank security and government secrets all involve cryptography that - in theory - quantum computing could crack.  In practice, it has been stuck in research labs for 25 years.

Once you have the private key for a bitcoin wallet you can spend the money however you like. And, unlike a 51% attack, it won't be at all obvious to anyone other than the person whose bitcoins you took that anything untoward has happened. You could probably go quite a while just targeting high balance wallets from the early bitcoin era (wallets that no one has touched in a decade indicating they likely forgot the wallet existed or lost access to the private key) before anyone really noticed.
Moving Bitcoin out of Satoshi's wallets would quickly become the leading story on every crypto website.  Targetting early, untouched wallets is actually the worst approach to avoid attention, as people monitor those addresses constantly.

In May, IBM funded $100 million USD of quantum computing research at various universities.  I don't follow how someone secretly passes up well-funded existing research in quantum computing and keeps it 100% secret.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1910 on: November 28, 2023, 01:41:01 AM »
We need a drinking game for how many times we can go through the same set of arguments.

Actually maybe we don't, I spend enough money on beer already.

-W
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Or maybe you oversimplify the arguments - in which you're not participating - and that's why you think it is the same argument.  Please remind me of the last discussion of quantum computing hacking Satoshi's early wallets.

maizefolk

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1911 on: November 28, 2023, 07:07:22 AM »
The issue of quantum computing has a lot less to do with mining and a lot more to do with the potential to crack the private keys of many bitcoin wallets given knowledge of their public keys.
Mining, private keys, bank security and government secrets all involve cryptography that - in theory - quantum computing could crack.  In practice, it has been stuck in research labs for 25 years.

That seems like a weak argument.

The first perceptrons (artificial neural networks) were created in 1958. As recently as 2014, just getting a computer to figure out if a bird was in a picture or not was extremely difficult if not impossible.

So I'm sure that in the ten years after 2014, neural net basted artificial intelligence won't change the way we live in any noticeable way. After all, at this point it has been stuck in research labs for 56 years.

Note: This isn't an argument that quantum computers will change the way we live dramatically. It is an argument that given technology being stuck in research labs for decades isn't convincing evidence to conclude the technology won't change the way we will dramatically.

tasimo

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1912 on: November 28, 2023, 08:33:05 AM »
At least blockchain development is more educated in cryptography and has active development into quantum resistance. There are chains that advertise being quantum resistant, though I’m not technical enough to understand it. I’m aware of hashgraph having post quantum resistance for hashing and encryption, but not for consensus or key signing. 

https://www.theqrl.org/the-future-of-post-quantum-resistant-blockchains/

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1913 on: November 28, 2023, 08:43:54 AM »

If the worst you can say about coinbase is that they've had to pay a fine to regulators (like almost any bank of any significant size), that's sounds like pretty good news to me.

Do you see the logical fallacy here?

I only see a levelling of the playing field and a little sarcasm.
The fallacy was holding Coinbase to a higher standard than that typically attained by financial institutions.

Telecaster

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1914 on: November 28, 2023, 01:06:04 PM »
Not quite.   Coinbase was held up as the least shady because it had only laundered money, not stolen it.  The fact other financial institutions have been caught with the same bad behavior doesn't excuse Coinbase.   The standard shouldn’t be “just as bad as someone else.”   After all, there are plenty of financial institutions that have never been fined for money laundering.  I bank at one.   

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1915 on: November 28, 2023, 01:30:17 PM »
Which major banks have been fined for money laundering?

Or heck, what smaller banks/credit unions?

I'm not saying I don't believe it, but I just don't follow these things so I'm curious. Seems like there at least should be lots of banks without money laundering problems available to hold my money given how many there are.

-W

maizefolk

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1916 on: November 28, 2023, 02:06:37 PM »
Which major banks have been fined for money laundering?

Or heck, what smaller banks/credit unions?

I'm not saying I don't believe it, but I just don't follow these things so I'm curious. Seems like there at least should be lots of banks without money laundering problems available to hold my money given how many there are.

-W

A modest correction. The post that started this discussion was a link to a news article in which coinbase was fined for not initially having strict enough anti-money laundering provisions, which they had since addressed.

I agreed that sounds bad even with the correction. As a check for how unusual that was, I took was I guessed was the same strategy used to find that article (google NameOfCompany + "money laundering") with the three biggest banks in both the USA and Canada and found similar stories for all six. The key point is this was just going down the list from largest on down, not cherry picking specific banks that worse than usual.

If you can plug NameofCompany + "money laundering" into google news search and find stories about almost any large* financial institution paying a fine at some point, then the fact a poster was able to do that for a particular crypto-exchange isn't a very useful datapoint in trying to identify which organizations are corrupt or untrustworthy.

*I agree there are almost certainly lots of credit unions and small local banks where the same approach would fail. I don't think that is a valid apples-to-apples comparison. Both because the task of compliance is easier at local institutions than multi-national ones and because the SEC/FDIC/DOJ are all going to prioritize enforcement at larger banks with the potential to both have a bigger impact and generate larger fines.

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1917 on: November 29, 2023, 08:35:42 AM »
Yikes, I guess there is a lot of that!

Thanks Maizefolk!

-W

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1918 on: November 29, 2023, 09:04:02 AM »
Which major banks have been fined for money laundering?

Or heck, what smaller banks/credit unions?

I'm not saying I don't believe it, but I just don't follow these things so I'm curious. Seems like there at least should be lots of banks without money laundering problems available to hold my money given how many there are.

-W

But why should we care? If a bank steals customer's money that's certainly an issue. But if they don't follow the myriad of cryptic, broad, and overbearing regulations, for money laundering in this case, that doesn't affect me or my money. So... whatever?

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1919 on: November 29, 2023, 09:27:27 AM »
Generally I prefer not to be associated with criminal activity, even indirectly, so I'd prefer not to do business with a bank that launders money for drug traffickers or something.

But that's just me, I guess.

-W

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1920 on: November 29, 2023, 12:11:50 PM »
Generally I prefer not to be associated with criminal activity, even indirectly, so I'd prefer not to do business with a bank that launders money for drug traffickers or something.

But that's just me, I guess.

-W

It's an admirable stance but how do you manage this in practice ?
Did you Google "your bank/broker/pensionCo" + fraud laundering fines, etc. before opening your accounts ? Or, this Violation Tracker looks like a pretty good resource.
Do you regularly check and will you jump ship if any get fined for any misdemeanours ?
Serious questions as I've never heard of anyone doing this - it seems a bit idealistic and impractical.

Scrupulously clean financial institutions seem to be a rarity. Sadly, the 4x different UK institutions I use for my SIPP, my ISA, my main bank accounts and my back-up credit card all appear in these lists below = 100% fail.

Does MMM need to update his recommendations ?
   Vanguard Violations
   Fidelity Violations
   Betterment Violations

Top 20 FCA fines:
   Barclays Bank plc - £284m fine (2015)
   National Westminster Bank Plc - £264.7m fine (2021)
   UBS AG - £233.8m fine (2014)
   Deutsche Bank fined - £226.8m fine (2015)
   Citibank NA - £225.6m fine (2014)
   JPMorgan Chase Bank - £222.1m fine (2014)
   The Royal Bank of Scotland - £217m fine (2014)
   HSBC Bank plc - £216.4m fine (2014)
   Deutsche Bank AG - £163m fine (2017)
   Credit Suisse - £147.2m fine (2021)
   JPMorgan Chase Bank NA - £137.6m fine (2013)
   The Bank of New York Mellon London Branch & Intl Ltd. - £126m fine (2015)
   Lloyd's Banking Group - £117.4m fine (2015)
   Santander UK plc - £107.8m (2022)
   Lloyd's Banking Group - £105m fine (2014)
   Rabobank - £105m fine (2013)
   Standard Chartered Bank - £102m fine (2019)
   Goldman Sachs International - £97m fine (2020)
   Lloyd's Bank General Insurance - £90.7m (2021)
   The Royal Bank of Scotland plc - £87.5m fine (2013)

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1921 on: November 29, 2023, 12:18:49 PM »
Fines being issued and people going to jail are signs of a system that is taking care of its corruption and illegal activities problems.

A lack of enforcement actions indicate an unregulated space. E.g. countries that never seem to convict politicians of corruption are 100% corrupt and markets where there are no enforcement actions are unregulated spaces filled with scams.

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1922 on: November 29, 2023, 12:29:21 PM »
Looks like Vanguard was fined $23k for something in Pennsylvania involving consumer protection in 2017. Then there are 2 employment discrimination cases that appear to have been settled in 2010 and 2008.

I'd say that falls far short of money laundering, personally, and given the size of Vanguard, it's a stellar track record.

I have minimal cash, and it's at a credit union locally. I guess maybe they could be funding meth labs or something, but I doubt it.

-W

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1923 on: November 29, 2023, 12:33:59 PM »
Looks like Vanguard was fined $23k for something in Pennsylvania involving consumer protection in 2017. Then there are 2 employment discrimination cases that appear to have been settled in 2010 and 2008.

I'd say that falls far short of money laundering, personally, and given the size of Vanguard, it's a stellar track record.

I have minimal cash, and it's at a credit union locally. I guess maybe they could be funding meth labs or something, but I doubt it.

-W

At least it would be locally sourced, organic meth though.  I hate it when big meth companies come in and push out all the small time artisanal cooks.

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1924 on: November 29, 2023, 12:40:34 PM »
Lab to table, man. That Chinese meth is just not the same.

-W

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1925 on: November 29, 2023, 01:47:45 PM »
Looks like Vanguard was fined $23k for something in Pennsylvania involving consumer protection in 2017. Then there are 2 employment discrimination cases that appear to have been settled in 2010 and 2008.

I'd say that falls far short of money laundering, personally, and given the size of Vanguard, it's a stellar track record.

I have minimal cash, and it's at a credit union locally. I guess maybe they could be funding meth labs or something, but I doubt it.

-W

Maybe that source isn't so good. I hadn't noticed that it missed this incident from 2023:
FINRA, Wall Street's self-regulatory organization, said in a filing signed last month by representatives of both parties that Vanguard overstated projected yield and projected annual income for nine money market funds from November 2019 to September 2020. It ordered Vanguard to pay a fine of $800,000.

And note, for about the 3rd time, that Coinbase was not fined for money laundering. They were fined because their procedures for protecting against money laundering (by customers) were inadequate. That's a very different thing - and it seems less corrupt than overselling your products in 8.5M customer statements.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1926 on: November 29, 2023, 02:02:27 PM »
Fines being issued and people going to jail are signs of a system that is taking care of its corruption and illegal activities problems.

A lack of enforcement actions indicate an unregulated space. E.g. countries that never seem to convict politicians of corruption are 100% corrupt and markets where there are no enforcement actions are unregulated spaces filled with scams.

Fines being issued and people going to jail are also signs of fraud and corruption within that system. It is perfectly clear that most significant financial institutions have some fraudulent, corrupt and sometimes just careless things going on.

Holding Coinbase up as a terrible villain because they were fined, while making excuses for similar fines against most conventional financial institutions is completely ridiculous. And, I say this as no fan of Coinbase, nor Binance, nor FTX, nor any other multi-crypto exchange.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 02:04:57 PM by LateStarter »

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1927 on: November 29, 2023, 02:37:11 PM »
Fines being issued and people going to jail are signs of a system that is taking care of its corruption and illegal activities problems.

A lack of enforcement actions indicate an unregulated space. E.g. countries that never seem to convict politicians of corruption are 100% corrupt and markets where there are no enforcement actions are unregulated spaces filled with scams.

Fines being issued and people going to jail are also signs of fraud and corruption within that system. It is perfectly clear that most significant financial institutions have some fraudulent, corrupt and sometimes just careless things going on.

Holding Coinbase up as a terrible villain because they were fined, while making excuses for similar fines against most conventional financial institutions is completely ridiculous. And, I say this as no fan of Coinbase, nor Binance, nor FTX, nor any other multi-crypto exchange.
Maybe so, but the cost of running a crypto exchange to the same standards as a heavily regulated U.S. bank would seemingly add an astronomical amount of cost. Those costs of compliance would have to be borne by customers, and now we loop back to the question of whether crypto is better than fiat.

In the grand currency vs. securities debate, this is the risk of the currency side. Crypto as a currency requires banks with all the overhead costs, reserve requirements, FDIC inspections, and disclosures. 

I don't foresee regular people using crypto without a "helper" organization like a bank any more than I see regular people trading stocks without a broker and recording peer to peer transfers of shares directly at the clearing houses. It just won't happen. It's too technical. If cryptocoins are a currency, then governments will ban, block, or seize any unregulated "bank".

maizefolk

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1928 on: November 29, 2023, 03:29:00 PM »
Maybe so, but the cost of running a crypto exchange to the same standards as a heavily regulated U.S. bank would seemingly add an astronomical amount of cost. Those costs of compliance would have to be borne by customers, and now we loop back to the question of whether crypto is better than fiat.

Indeed it does add a great deal to the costs, which is why transaction fees at CoinBase are so much higher than many non-US based exchanges.

But here we loop back to your original question of whether there is any mainstream and law abiding firms that allow users to transact in cryptocurrency.

The answer is yes. The services they offer cost more than folks flying by the seat of their pants and incorporated in overseas tax havens. The companies offering the service don't do super flashy things that make headlines as much as Binance or FTX did, but they are out there, doing as good a job as most major banks of following applicable laws.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1929 on: November 29, 2023, 04:27:45 PM »
Fines being issued and people going to jail are signs of a system that is taking care of its corruption and illegal activities problems.

A lack of enforcement actions indicate an unregulated space. E.g. countries that never seem to convict politicians of corruption are 100% corrupt and markets where there are no enforcement actions are unregulated spaces filled with scams.

Fines being issued and people going to jail are also signs of fraud and corruption within that system. It is perfectly clear that most significant financial institutions have some fraudulent, corrupt and sometimes just careless things going on.

Holding Coinbase up as a terrible villain because they were fined, while making excuses for similar fines against most conventional financial institutions is completely ridiculous. And, I say this as no fan of Coinbase, nor Binance, nor FTX, nor any other multi-crypto exchange.
Maybe so, but the cost of running a crypto exchange to the same standards as a heavily regulated U.S. bank would seemingly add an astronomical amount of cost. Those costs of compliance would have to be borne by customers, and now we loop back to the question of whether crypto is better than fiat.

Yeah, probably [shrug] - I'm just not all that interested in these multi-crypto exchanges, so don't have much of an opinion.

In the grand currency vs. securities debate, this is the risk of the currency side. Crypto as a currency requires banks with all the overhead costs, reserve requirements, FDIC inspections, and disclosures. 

I don't foresee regular people using crypto without a "helper" organization like a bank any more than I see regular people trading stocks without a broker and recording peer to peer transfers of shares directly at the clearing houses. It just won't happen. It's too technical. If cryptocoins are a currency, then governments will ban, block, or seize any unregulated "bank".

Bitcoin is a good enough SoV 'bank' for me right now. Bitcoin 'as a currency' like that looks like Legal Tender, and I think we're a loooong way from that in our regions.

I don't foresee regular people trading stocks without telephoning their suited-up bowler-hatted high-fee stockbroker, it's just too technical - said my Dad. Don't underestimate tomorrow's technology.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1930 on: November 29, 2023, 11:33:04 PM »
The issue of quantum computing has a lot less to do with mining and a lot more to do with the potential to crack the private keys of many bitcoin wallets given knowledge of their public keys.
Mining, private keys, bank security and government secrets all involve cryptography that - in theory - quantum computing could crack.  In practice, it has been stuck in research labs for 25 years.

That seems like a weak argument.

The first perceptrons (artificial neural networks) were created in 1958. As recently as 2014, just getting a computer to figure out if a bird was in a picture or not was extremely difficult if not impossible.

So I'm sure that in the ten years after 2014, neural net basted artificial intelligence won't change the way we live in any noticeable way. After all, at this point it has been stuck in research labs for 56 years.

Note: This isn't an argument that quantum computers will change the way we live dramatically. It is an argument that given technology being stuck in research labs for decades isn't convincing evidence to conclude the technology won't change the way we will dramatically.
You quoted me talking only about quantum computers and then said nothing about quantum computers.  Machine learning is not quantum computing.

Experts on quantum computing:
https://quantumzeitgeist.com/20-influential-individuals-driving-the-quantum-technology-revolution/

First expert in that list (Robert "Bob" Sutor) talking about quantum computing one month ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwAHhy52jY
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 11:38:55 PM by MustacheAndaHalf »

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1931 on: November 29, 2023, 11:52:56 PM »
Coinbase and Gemini are large U.S. based exchanges.  These exchanges have two levels of fees, based on using a simple or advanced interface.

Someone who just wants to buy X amount of crypto can use a simple interface, and get charged 1.49% at Gemini.  I had trouble locating Coinbase's current web fees.
https://www.gemini.com/fees/web-fee-schedule

Or they can use an advanced interface that looks like a stock market.  If they want a trade immediately, they are a "taker" of an existing order, and pay the higher fee.  If they patiently add an order that is not immediately traded, they are a "maker" of a new order, and pay a lower fee when it finds a buyer/seller.

https://www.gemini.com/fees/activetrader-fee-schedule
https://exchange.coinbase.com/fees

TL;DR - trade crypto paying 1.5% for simple, 0.4% when impatient and 0.2% if patient.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1932 on: November 30, 2023, 05:59:11 AM »
You quoted me talking only about quantum computers and then said nothing about quantum computers.

I quoted you dismissing a technology as having been stuck in the research lab for 25 years and pointed out that other technologies that are changing our world in big ways today had been stuck in research labs for even longer.

Edit: Note that this doesn't mean quantum computing will change our world in a big way in the future. It only illustrates that your statement that it has been stuck in research labs for 25 years isn't useful evidence to support the claim that quantum computing won't change our world in the future.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 06:16:20 AM by maizefolk »

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1933 on: December 01, 2023, 12:25:04 AM »
You quoted me talking only about quantum computers and then said nothing about quantum computers.

I quoted you dismissing a technology as having been stuck in the research lab for 25 years and pointed out that other technologies that are changing our world in big ways today had been stuck in research labs for even longer.

Edit: Note that this doesn't mean quantum computing will change our world in a big way in the future. It only illustrates that your statement that it has been stuck in research labs for 25 years isn't useful evidence to support the claim that quantum computing won't change our world in the future.
Are you claiming that machine learning came solely from perceptrons, and not from the development of computers?  I could claim pocket calculators come from the abacus, and took 2,000 years to develop, using the same misplaced origin.  In reality, ChatGPT was too expensive to create 10 years ago, but unrelated demand for computing brought down costs until ChatGPT became a practical reality.  Computing power and cost was the bottleneck, not perceptrons.

Quantum computers are based on creating and using quantum states before the whole thing collapses.  Quantum computing can't simply wait for greater computing power, and then suddenly crack Blockchain addresses.  Every missing piece, from qubits to software to networks, needs to be researched, developed and improved.  Quantum computing has been 2-3 years from a breakthrough for over a decade.  The other poster, who warned of Bitcoin being at risk of hacking by quantum computing, is relying on hype rather than expert opinion.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1934 on: December 01, 2023, 08:45:58 AM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.) The use of AI and traditional supercomputers to aid in the design of quantum computers is another unknown variable. And besides quantum computers there are other 'orders of magnitude' advances being researched in traditional computing such as the emulation of biological neural networks.

Will bitcoin as implemented be useful for the generational transfer of wealth? I think it is something for long-horizon bitcoiners to consider. I am sure there are many people who have no idea there could be such future risks. If a first supercomputer hack occurs, it will be such big news. We would see a drop faster than that FTT token, I would think.

Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1935 on: December 01, 2023, 12:44:58 PM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.) The use of AI and traditional supercomputers to aid in the design of quantum computers is another unknown variable. And besides quantum computers there are other 'orders of magnitude' advances being researched in traditional computing such as the emulation of biological neural networks.

Will bitcoin as implemented be useful for the generational transfer of wealth? I think it is something for long-horizon bitcoiners to consider. I am sure there are many people who have no idea there could be such future risks. If a first supercomputer hack occurs, it will be such big news. We would see a drop faster than that FTT token, I would think.

As discussed earlier, any supercomputer capable of breaking Bitcoin is capable of breaking just about anything and everything. A bad actor could wreak havoc right across the board. However, the chance of a fully-formed Bitcoin/everything breaker suddenly plugging in without warning seems remote in the greatest extreme. Bitcoin Miners and Bitcoin people in general have great interest in any and all technolgical developments that might affect Bitcoin. If just one Bitcoiner, or even just one person with a conscience, got to hear about it . . .

I'm as concerned about this scenario as I am concerned about NKorea suddenly, out of the blue, launching a new weapon that's so far advanced that the rest of the world is defenceless against it. It's theoretically possible, but . . .

Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1936 on: December 01, 2023, 02:21:17 PM »
The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.

We didn't create physical reality and time, so we're stuck with 'em.  Sure.

But if your life is on the line every single time you cross the road, there's a pretty big fucking problem that needs to be fixed.  This can be handled with traffic laws, legal enforcement, better vehicle regulation, better road design, better driver education, signs and on road devices.  Road deaths are acknowledged to be an issue though.

We fucking designed Bitcoin.  So why aren't we fixing this obvious problem?

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1937 on: December 01, 2023, 03:42:59 PM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.) The use of AI and traditional supercomputers to aid in the design of quantum computers is another unknown variable. And besides quantum computers there are other 'orders of magnitude' advances being researched in traditional computing such as the emulation of biological neural networks.

Will bitcoin as implemented be useful for the generational transfer of wealth? I think it is something for long-horizon bitcoiners to consider. I am sure there are many people who have no idea there could be such future risks. If a first supercomputer hack occurs, it will be such big news. We would see a drop faster than that FTT token, I would think.

As discussed earlier, any supercomputer capable of breaking Bitcoin is capable of breaking just about anything and everything. A bad actor could wreak havoc right across the board. However, the chance of a fully-formed Bitcoin/everything breaker suddenly plugging in without warning seems remote in the greatest extreme. Bitcoin Miners and Bitcoin people in general have great interest in any and all technolgical developments that might affect Bitcoin. If just one Bitcoiner, or even just one person with a conscience, got to hear about it . . .

I'm as concerned about this scenario as I am concerned about NKorea suddenly, out of the blue, launching a new weapon that's so far advanced that the rest of the world is defenceless against it. It's theoretically possible, but . . .

Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.
I've thought about the super-fast encryption breaker problem too, because some outcomes might put an expiration date on our entire financial system.

The simple solution for username/password or username/biometric logins (i.e bank or brokerage accounts) is to have a time delay for each username's subsequent password attempt. A ten or twenty second delay, or a delay that gets longer with each incorrect password attempt, can extend the time it takes a brute force attack to locate a password to many years of trying random combinations.

This simple method is immune to the increasing speed of the hacker's equipment. However an AI information skimmer could do better by generating a few million potential passwords out of your personal information revealed online - year of birth, favorite things, favorite authors or characters, school mascot, sayings, word patterns, old passwords obtained from previous hacks, etc, thus generating a smaller solution set and guessing many password within a few months of trying, even with the time delays. An AI could also screen out possible passphrases that are not pronounceable, dramatically limiting the solution set.

With biometrics, there could be genetic patterns that could be assumed from information revealed online that reduce the solution set. An AI might find all sorts of patterns to make itself a better password cracker - patterns our sciences have never discovered. Maybe blue eyed people with type AB blood never have a certain pattern in their retinas?

So account-level time delays are a useful way to keep brute force hackers out of individual accounts, but they don't stop the hacker from trying a new username with each password combination in an attempt to breach any one account in the system. In large systems with potentially billions of users, the odds increase for the cracking program to randomly luck into at least one correct username/password combination, even if the odds are astronomical. The defender cannot set the whole system to time delay with each wrong password guess or else it could be locked up by anyone and thus would always be locked. If nothing comes up on the first attempt of a billion unique usernames plus a billion possible passwords, the hacker can roll again after the 10-20 second delay has passed, and so on. Even with an escalating time delay, the hacker has a reasonable chance of getting into somebody's account because they can throw very large numbers at very steep odds. Being that somebody or reimbursing that somebody may be a cost of doing business.

At its core, the problem is our authentication data must be small enough to be convenient. The size of "convenient" means memorable in a human brain (containing dozens of other passwords) or portable as part of a human body (but then unchangeable if breached). The size of "convenient" doesn't change much, but the capabilities of brute force or AI-led password guessing attempts are constantly increasing. In theory, this dynamic leads to a crossover point where hacking capabilities exceed the possible security level of any convenient form of authentication data.

At that time we would no longer have a reliable way to trade in electronic formats, which could mean worldwide economic collapse if it happened fast enough. There is no guarantee offensive tech won't evolve faster than defensive tech, or the rules of our slow-moving economic systems.

Time delays could still be part of the answer, but at some point the brute force or AI-led attacks come so constantly that all user accounts are always at the maximum time delay. The maximum time delay can only be as high as a user is willing to tolerate. 20-30 seconds perhaps? One minute to make a sale?

Another possible solution is three-factor: username + passphrase + biometric, for example. I don't see this as a good solution because it's even less convenient and more costly than a time delay, and because it is essentially an extended password, which only kicks the can down the road. Plus the biometric element can never be changed, even if compromised. If we assume our data will eventually be compromised - as passwords currently are, then the biometric part is a false security blanket.

We could end up living in a world where we all carry around physical tokens containing authentication chains dozens of petabytes in size just to access each time-delayed account. Losing such a device might mean losing your money, unless some meatspace identity verification procedure was applied. Such a system would be far less efficient than our current world of 12-character-passwords-by-email. Yet it would get around the "convenient size" limitation and allow electronic commerce to continue despite quantum computing and ubiquitous AIs with near-infinite cryptographic cracking power.

We're currently using layers of cryptographic scrambling on as many of these elements as possible to prevent in-transit interception, but cryptography is essentially a problem of processing speeds and intelligence, and we can't hide behind these fast-falling barriers forever.

Cryptocurrencies deserve credit as an initial attempt to address this looming issue, but the method of hiding keys behind usernames, passwords, and website businesses built by shady characters in legal gray areas has been a disaster for so many people who have had their accounts and wallets hacked. If anything, all the false security of cryptocurrency only made it easier to steal. I bet there are technical lessons to be learned beneath the FOMO-throwing-money-at-obvious-frauds layer.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1938 on: December 01, 2023, 05:44:21 PM »
The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.

We didn't create physical reality and time, so we're stuck with 'em.  Sure.

But if your life is on the line every single time you cross the road, there's a pretty big fucking problem that needs to be fixed.  This can be handled with traffic laws, legal enforcement, better vehicle regulation, better road design, better driver education, signs and on road devices.  Road deaths are acknowledged to be an issue though.

We fucking designed Bitcoin.  So why aren't we fixing this obvious problem?

What problem ? The problem of living in reality where cause-->effect ? Your life is on the line with every breath and every heart beat - never mind crossing the damned road. It's a fundamental matter of principle, not a problem that can be fixed.

I'm in favour of traffic laws, good roads, etc. They're all good ideas and can reduce the risks.
I'm in favour of the technologies making Bitcoin more user-friendly, etc. for the same reasons.
However, reality remains the final arbiter. Your actions are final and have consequences, and time is uni-directional.
If you get hit by a car, you got hit by a car. No ifs or buts - it's done and it can't be undone.
If you pay me Bitcoin, the Bitcoin is mine. No ifs or buts - it's done and it can't be undone.

There is a partial solution if you want one. It's called Virtual Reality, like Frogger, where you can die crossing the road and come back to life and have another go. Most of us find these worlds unsatisfying though - ironically, because everything is inconsequential/pointless.
Similarly, you can use your fiat bank (for Visa, bank transfers, online payments, etc.) which is it's own Virtual Reality where physical laws don't count. What counts is banking rules and the authorisation decisions of powerful banker overseers. This can be seen as a comforting safety net but it comes at multiple costs, eg. these trusted overseers demand to be paid handsomely, can make mistakes, have conflicts-of-interests, can take liberties, etc.
The overseers are the final arbiter. Your actions are not final, they must be authorised and may be denied or reversed, etc.
If your Frog gets hit by a car, never mind - have another go. Forget it ever happened, maybe you were jostled so it shouldn't count anyway . . . or maybe . . .
If you transfer some $ to me, they might appear in my account - only to disappear again. Maybe an overseer says you broke some rule, maybe an overseer says I broke some rule, or maybe . . .

When it comes to crossing the road, I choose reality, immutability - and I accept the consequences of my actions, including those of my mistakes. Similarly, I like the idea of reality, immutability for my money.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1939 on: December 01, 2023, 07:42:29 PM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.) The use of AI and traditional supercomputers to aid in the design of quantum computers is another unknown variable. And besides quantum computers there are other 'orders of magnitude' advances being researched in traditional computing such as the emulation of biological neural networks.

Will bitcoin as implemented be useful for the generational transfer of wealth? I think it is something for long-horizon bitcoiners to consider. I am sure there are many people who have no idea there could be such future risks. If a first supercomputer hack occurs, it will be such big news. We would see a drop faster than that FTT token, I would think.

As discussed earlier, any supercomputer capable of breaking Bitcoin is capable of breaking just about anything and everything. A bad actor could wreak havoc right across the board. However, the chance of a fully-formed Bitcoin/everything breaker suddenly plugging in without warning seems remote in the greatest extreme. Bitcoin Miners and Bitcoin people in general have great interest in any and all technolgical developments that might affect Bitcoin. If just one Bitcoiner, or even just one person with a conscience, got to hear about it . . .

I'm as concerned about this scenario as I am concerned about NKorea suddenly, out of the blue, launching a new weapon that's so far advanced that the rest of the world is defenceless against it. It's theoretically possible, but . . .

Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.
I've thought about the super-fast encryption breaker problem too, because some outcomes might put an expiration date on our entire financial system.

The simple solution for username/password or username/biometric logins (i.e bank or brokerage accounts) is to have a time delay for each username's subsequent password attempt. A ten or twenty second delay, or a delay that gets longer with each incorrect password attempt, can extend the time it takes a brute force attack to locate a password to many years of trying random combinations.

This simple method is immune to the increasing speed of the hacker's equipment. However an AI information skimmer could do better by generating a few million potential passwords out of your personal information revealed online - year of birth, favorite things, favorite authors or characters, school mascot, sayings, word patterns, old passwords obtained from previous hacks, etc, thus generating a smaller solution set and guessing many password within a few months of trying, even with the time delays. An AI could also screen out possible passphrases that are not pronounceable, dramatically limiting the solution set.

With biometrics, there could be genetic patterns that could be assumed from information revealed online that reduce the solution set. An AI might find all sorts of patterns to make itself a better password cracker - patterns our sciences have never discovered. Maybe blue eyed people with type AB blood never have a certain pattern in their retinas?

So account-level time delays are a useful way to keep brute force hackers out of individual accounts, but they don't stop the hacker from trying a new username with each password combination in an attempt to breach any one account in the system. In large systems with potentially billions of users, the odds increase for the cracking program to randomly luck into at least one correct username/password combination, even if the odds are astronomical. The defender cannot set the whole system to time delay with each wrong password guess or else it could be locked up by anyone and thus would always be locked. If nothing comes up on the first attempt of a billion unique usernames plus a billion possible passwords, the hacker can roll again after the 10-20 second delay has passed, and so on. Even with an escalating time delay, the hacker has a reasonable chance of getting into somebody's account because they can throw very large numbers at very steep odds. Being that somebody or reimbursing that somebody may be a cost of doing business.

At its core, the problem is our authentication data must be small enough to be convenient. The size of "convenient" means memorable in a human brain (containing dozens of other passwords) or portable as part of a human body (but then unchangeable if breached). The size of "convenient" doesn't change much, but the capabilities of brute force or AI-led password guessing attempts are constantly increasing. In theory, this dynamic leads to a crossover point where hacking capabilities exceed the possible security level of any convenient form of authentication data.

At that time we would no longer have a reliable way to trade in electronic formats, which could mean worldwide economic collapse if it happened fast enough. There is no guarantee offensive tech won't evolve faster than defensive tech, or the rules of our slow-moving economic systems.

Time delays could still be part of the answer, but at some point the brute force or AI-led attacks come so constantly that all user accounts are always at the maximum time delay. The maximum time delay can only be as high as a user is willing to tolerate. 20-30 seconds perhaps? One minute to make a sale?

Another possible solution is three-factor: username + passphrase + biometric, for example. I don't see this as a good solution because it's even less convenient and more costly than a time delay, and because it is essentially an extended password, which only kicks the can down the road. Plus the biometric element can never be changed, even if compromised. If we assume our data will eventually be compromised - as passwords currently are, then the biometric part is a false security blanket.

We could end up living in a world where we all carry around physical tokens containing authentication chains dozens of petabytes in size just to access each time-delayed account. Losing such a device might mean losing your money, unless some meatspace identity verification procedure was applied. Such a system would be far less efficient than our current world of 12-character-passwords-by-email. Yet it would get around the "convenient size" limitation and allow electronic commerce to continue despite quantum computing and ubiquitous AIs with near-infinite cryptographic cracking power.

We're currently using layers of cryptographic scrambling on as many of these elements as possible to prevent in-transit interception, but cryptography is essentially a problem of processing speeds and intelligence, and we can't hide behind these fast-falling barriers forever.

Cryptocurrencies deserve credit as an initial attempt to address this looming issue, but the method of hiding keys behind usernames, passwords, and website businesses built by shady characters in legal gray areas has been a disaster for so many people who have had their accounts and wallets hacked. If anything, all the false security of cryptocurrency only made it easier to steal. I bet there are technical lessons to be learned beneath the FOMO-throwing-money-at-obvious-frauds layer.

Arms races are as old as life itself.
If Quantum Computers can be used to launch a significant attack, it seems likely that Quantum Computers can also be used to mount a significant defence.
AI seems like a different, less predictable, animal. Who knows where that will lead us ?

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1940 on: December 02, 2023, 01:17:00 AM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.)
You listed no breakthroughs, just that you "would say" they exist.  My comment on "2-3 years from a breakthrough" is quantum computing expert Robert Sutor criticizing the hype around quantum computing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwAHhy52jY

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1941 on: December 02, 2023, 02:24:40 AM »
If/when quantum computing gets close to breaking cryptography, that would be a risk to both Bitcoin addresses and the blockchain.  Most cryptography assumes factoring large integers takes far longer than Shor's Algorithm, which is a quantum computing approach to factoring.  Searching for Shor's Algorithm brings up research papers with the numbers 15 and 21 being factored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor%27s_algorithm

Hybrid algorithms use conventional computers to pre-compute a starting point, which lets them use 3 qubits.

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For example, the factorization of 1,099,551,473,989 relied on classical pre-processing to reduce the problem to a three-qubit quantum circuit.  Furthermore, the three numbers factored in this paper (200,099, 291,311, and 1,099,551,473,989) can easily be factored using Fermat's factorization method, requiring only 3, 1, and 1 iterations of the loop respectively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_factorization_records#Records_for_efforts_by_quantum_computers

I interpret this to mean factoring using quantum computing is stuck at using a handful of qubits.  A year ago IBM rolled out a 433 qubit computer, and a month ago Atom Computer announced a 1000 qubit computer.  Why is the capacity of the latest quantum computers a hundred times greater than the number of qubits used to research factoring?

https://newsroom.ibm.com/2022-11-09-IBM-Unveils-400-Qubit-Plus-Quantum-Processor-and-Next-Generation-IBM-Quantum-System-Two
https://atom-computing.com/quantum-startup-atom-computing-first-to-exceed-1000-qubits/

crimp

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1942 on: December 02, 2023, 11:03:08 AM »
I’m not a quantum expert, but the following is my understanding of the distinction.

Quantum annealing machines can’t (efficiently) run Shor’s algorithm. The annealing machines have higher number of qubits but are designed to solve certain kinds of optimization problems.

 Universal quantum computers are harder to scale, require advanced refrigeration, and need lots of error correction. For every logical qubit you can reliably use to compute you need several additional physical qubits to correct errors. The  433 and 1000 figures are likely physical qubits, not logical qubits.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 11:06:43 AM by crimp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1943 on: December 02, 2023, 10:31:57 PM »
Error correction is a much bigger challenge than I realized.  There's 7-qubit-code error correction that divides the number of physical qubits by 7, resulting in logical qubits with tolerable error rates (results are still probabilities).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_error_correction#Models

Quantum computers factoring numbers have have 3 logical qubits, but behind the scenes run on a 21 qubit computer (each group of 7 forming one usable qubit).  This also means I need to be careful which articles I read, as non-experts will confuse needing 3 logical qubits with needing 3 physical qubits (as I initially did).

wantstoinvest

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1944 on: December 03, 2023, 11:20:52 AM »
Any one have any insight on why crypto has been rising in the lat few weeks? Does it change anyones opinion on having a crypto allocation?

maizefolk

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1945 on: December 03, 2023, 02:47:05 PM »
I've read other people claiming the price increase reflects anticipation of the SEC being forced to approve bitcoin ETFs which would (they say) unlock a lot more US consumer demand for purchasing bitcoin.

We're also about five months away from the next halving of the blockchain reward, which has historically been associated with a significant increase in the price of bitcoin as the supply of new bitcoin entering the market drops while demand presumably remains constant.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1946 on: December 03, 2023, 03:08:15 PM »
Any one have any insight on why crypto has been rising in the lat few weeks? Does it change anyones opinion on having a crypto allocation?

Some of Bitcoin's rise is probably due to an inrush of Mustachian purchases resulting from my persuasive arguments here.

Also, the seemingly imminent Spot ETFs expected to bring institutional money in + a general legitimisation/normalisation of Bitcoin.

Also, anticipation of the next halving around April 2024.

Also, signs of more "monetary easing" creeping back in / on the horizon.

All bullish for Bitcoin.

As for the rest of crypto ? Mostly riding coat-tails imo, but I don't really know . . . (and don't much care either).

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1947 on: December 03, 2023, 10:23:21 PM »
I've read other people claiming the price increase reflects anticipation of the SEC being forced to approve bitcoin ETFs which would (they say) unlock a lot more US consumer demand for purchasing bitcoin.
The price of BTC-USD spiked on Oct 23, 2023.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/

Also on Oct 23, 2023 :
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The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals closed the books on a dispute between the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and Grayscale, with a final ruling that effectively orders the agency to scrap its rejection of the asset manager's spot bitcoin ETF application.
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/10/23/grayscale-court-victory-over-sec-in-spot-bitcoin-etf-case-made-final/

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1948 on: December 04, 2023, 12:35:01 AM »
Bitcoin following gold up IMO aswell as anticipation of the ETFs and the halving.  The market is looking for harder assets as it begins to realise that the USA is basically insolvent, the national debt is now rising exponentially and the only choice soon will be to print its way into oblivion.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1949 on: December 04, 2023, 12:11:53 PM »
Bitcoin's market cap rose $75 billion in anticipation of a spot Bitcoin ETF.  I doubt there's $75B of new demand from institutional investors - they can already buy Bitcoin without the ETF.  Combine that with my thesis for a ceiling on market gains, and I think Bitcoin's +38% gains since Oct 20th are excessive.

I've opened a small short position in shares of $MSTR (currently $560/sh), which move closely with the price of Bitcoin.  Does anyone else have negative exposure to Bitcoin?

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!