Poll

Given the outperformance of US Stocks over the last 10 years, what is your prediction on forward returns & your asset allocation?

US continues to outperform & my asset allocation reflects this belief (< 20% international).
25 (39.1%)
US continues to outperform, but I have a global asset allocation (at least 20% international).
23 (35.9%)
International outperforms & my asset allocation reflects this belief (> 40% international).
7 (10.9%)
International outperforms, but I still maintain > 60% US Stocks
9 (14.1%)

Total Members Voted: 64

Author Topic: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years  (Read 3784 times)

HeadedWest2029

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Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« on: January 09, 2023, 02:50:22 PM »
As a reference, US / International is roughly 60 / 40 right now

solon

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2023, 02:53:30 PM »
I think this is like trying to predict anything else in the stock market, i.e. impossible.

US/Int'l
Growth/Income
Stocks/Real Estate

Which will perform better? Any answer you might give is little more than a guess.

HeadedWest2029

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2023, 02:59:36 PM »
I ask because I think ex-US will outperform for the next 10 years.  It just feels like this has to mean revert.  However, I still maintain the global market cap ratio because behaviorally it's harder to do something unusual (like tilting international) AND be wrong. 

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2023, 03:06:24 PM »
My TSP (government 401k account) has about 10% in international funds but with most of the rest in the S&P500 it's still a fairly large international exposure. Apple, Tesla, Microsoft, etc. all have significant international revenue. I think US will probably outperform over the next decade but for last quarter the I Fund in my TSP had an 18% return vs. 7.5% for the C Fund (S&P 500) and 5% for the S Fund (other 20% of the US stock market outside the S&P 500 - mostly mid- and small-cap stocks).

Scandium

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2023, 04:41:39 PM »
I wish I knew the answer... I've maintained the global market ratio, about 60-65% US. Unfortunately during my investing career since 2010 international has performed dogshit. Especially 2013-2023 US has crushed international. Have go go back to 1986-92 to see international actually meaningfully outperform, only to lag embarrassingly during the US bull market in the 90s! I'm honestly getting tired of seeing 40% of my portfolio drag so badly.  And it's not like it does much for diversification anyway. Almost any event that cause US stocks to crash, international will crash by about the same.

Currently considering reducing to 20-30% international, is that "market timing"...? maybe? As you say, after such a long time of lagging US, is now the time international will outperform for the next decade?!

PDXTabs

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2023, 05:19:33 PM »
I try to stay global market cap weighted, so it is hard to answer this poll.

Radagast

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2023, 07:50:50 PM »
I maintain a 50/50 US/international allocation. Partly unrelated, I also think international will outperform the 2020s. US and international have alternated decades since the 1980s, and when they haven't it worked out poorly (Japan was ahead in both 1970s and 1980s, and that resulted in a huge bubble they still haven't recovered from).

EverythingisNew

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2023, 09:30:49 PM »
I think international will outperform in the 10year long run, but I also think international is risky because the stocks can be de-listed (China) or there could be a geopolitical issue in a certain country (Russia). Where did you get this 40/60 ratio? It seems higher international than the average US investor. Even though I think international will outperform, I think I should invest in my own country primarily.

less4success

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2023, 10:00:06 PM »
Every year or two, I see investment firms predict the performance of various asset classes for the next 5 or 10 years. They always predict emerging markets will perform the best… but it never actually happens.

I know international and emerging markets have had periods of outperformance in the past, but I’ve never benefitted from it.

I’m still planning to stick to my current allocation, but if things don’t turn around in the next decade or two, I might finally give up.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 10:02:09 PM by less4success »

PDXTabs

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2023, 10:26:19 PM »
I think international will outperform in the 10year long run, but I also think international is risky because the stocks can be de-listed (China) or there could be a geopolitical issue in a certain country (Russia). Where did you get this 40/60 ratio? It seems higher international than the average US investor. Even though I think international will outperform, I think I should invest in my own country primarily.

I assume that OP chose 60% because the US is currently ~60% of the FTSE Global All Cap Index. But as a slight aside there are countries that aren't included in this index, particularly the FTSE frontier markets.

I do worry a little bit about the China/Russia problem. In my 401k I own FSGGX and take the risk of owning China/Russia. In my taxable brokerage I own VEA+FRDM which doesn't have the China/Russia problem.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 10:30:00 PM by PDXTabs »

Heliios

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2023, 10:37:58 PM »
As has been pointed out, the US makes up about 60% of the global market cap. If the US continues to outperform international, will it grow to 70% of the global cap? 80%? 90%? At some point, either the US becomes hegemonic (or most companies decide to incorporate in the US for whatever reason) or there is some reversal of the trend. I'll admit that instead of the truly agnostic 60/40, I'm about 85/15 US to international, because... home team bias I guess. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see international outperform at some point. International also has a higher dividend yield so the total return in recent decades, while quite poor, isn't as bad as an index chart might suggest.

SilentC

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2023, 05:42:11 AM »
I think this is like trying to predict anything else in the stock market, i.e. impossible.

US/Int'l
Growth/Income
Stocks/Real Estate

Which will perform better? Any answer you might give is little more than a guess.

You can’t know, but you can assess a skewed probability and bet accordingly.  If something has mean reverted several times in a century you wouldn’t bet on eventual mean reversion?  Sure it could be randomness like flipping “heads” several times in a row but it costs almost nothing to re-allocate an index portfolio in an IRA so why not do it if the signal is fairly strong?

Scandium

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2023, 10:19:22 AM »
You can’t know, but you can assess a skewed probability and bet accordingly.  If something has mean reverted several times in a century you wouldn’t bet on eventual mean reversion?  Sure it could be randomness like flipping “heads” several times in a row but it costs almost nothing to re-allocate an index portfolio in an IRA so why not do it if the signal is fairly strong?

Is it?

SilentC

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2023, 11:06:34 AM »
You can’t know, but you can assess a skewed probability and bet accordingly.  If something has mean reverted several times in a century you wouldn’t bet on eventual mean reversion?  Sure it could be randomness like flipping “heads” several times in a row but it costs almost nothing to re-allocate an index portfolio in an IRA so why not do it if the signal is fairly strong?

Is it?

Yes.  Go look at JPM guide to markets, or analyze the CAPE ratios or relative PEs and tell me it looks like a coin toss on 10 year returns.  Edit - for international vs US

Scandium

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2023, 11:56:48 AM »
You can’t know, but you can assess a skewed probability and bet accordingly.  If something has mean reverted several times in a century you wouldn’t bet on eventual mean reversion?  Sure it could be randomness like flipping “heads” several times in a row but it costs almost nothing to re-allocate an index portfolio in an IRA so why not do it if the signal is fairly strong?

Is it?

Yes.  Go look at JPM guide to markets, or analyze the CAPE ratios or relative PEs and tell me it looks like a coin toss on 10 year returns.  Edit - for international vs US

I'm pretty sure I read the exact same thing in 2012-13, and international has done terrible compared to total US for 10+ years. US has had "OMG PE too high!" compared to most developed countries since the financial crisis rebound, but so far that has not gone the way the predictors have predicted.. My 40% international has cost me dearly. Maybe international will finally do well this decade? We'll see.

SilentC

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2023, 01:02:40 PM »
You can’t know, but you can assess a skewed probability and bet accordingly.  If something has mean reverted several times in a century you wouldn’t bet on eventual mean reversion?  Sure it could be randomness like flipping “heads” several times in a row but it costs almost nothing to re-allocate an index portfolio in an IRA so why not do it if the signal is fairly strong?

Is it?

Yes.  Go look at JPM guide to markets, or analyze the CAPE ratios or relative PEs and tell me it looks like a coin toss on 10 year returns.  Edit - for international vs US

I'm pretty sure I read the exact same thing in 2012-13, and international has done terrible compared to total US for 10+ years. US has had "OMG PE too high!" compared to most developed countries since the financial crisis rebound, but so far that has not gone the way the predictors have predicted.. My 40% international has cost me dearly. Maybe international will finally do well this decade? We'll see.

I hear what you were saying, but try thinking about it this way.  Having large allocations to other countries prevents very bad outcomes, like if you were living in Germany and started investing 15 years ago in a 100% EU portfolio that would have sucked! If MMM and J Collins were living in Germany 15 years ago it’s fairly likely they would have said to invest locally for all the same reasons people only invest in US like tax and transaction efficiencies, and then the FI movement would have gone nowhere because of a lack of instant gratification that many got from double digit S&P compounding and having 90% of their wealth in S&P.  Funny to think about really.  Or Japan or any other number of countries that have had lost decades or worse, like the US back in the 60s. 

I would have said the odds on bet was international 5 years ago and so far that has not panned out, but it doesn’t mean it was the wrong way to bet.  Most successful investors look for bets where the risk-reward is slightly skewed in their favor and making lots and lots of bets like that over time to where eventually they are like the casino.  Moreso than 5 years ago I think international is the best odds bet so I’m overweight.  It’s very subjective but dollar strength has been cyclical and intl vs US performance has been cyclical so I’m wagering the cyclicality will continue.  If I’m wrong I FI slower but it could be catastrophic if I’m right and the US has a lost decade while I end up compounding mid single digit in a blended portfolio.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2023, 01:33:49 PM »
I don't see stocks in the US versus ex-US as an apples to apples comparison.

Whereas policy in the US is tilted toward maximizing returns to shareholders, other countries have other values, like system stability, equality, privacy, economic autonomy, etc. Chinese stocks, for example, are a completely different beast than US stocks because they exist in a country where corporations must serve the government's interests instead of vice versa. European IT firms exist within a regulatory paradigm that emphasizes the privacy of individuals, and therefore cannot do the sort of things Meta and TikTok and your bank do. These policy differences lead to big differences in returns to shareholders.

Also, there is no other country I'm aware of that has adopted consumerism and workaholism as its culture to the extent of the US. Americans work extremely hard to out-earn each other and to afford more plastic junk. People with disabilities, pregnant women, 70-year-olds - all must work or face homelessness or death from untreated medical conditions or exposure. The result is an economy that cycles through money very quickly, turning human lifespans into corporate profits with greater efficiency than anywhere else.

International may outperform from low levels as they become more like the US, but my money is on the system that compels people to start their 1 hour commutes at 5 a.m. and neglect their children so they can afford to buy 3 streaming services, a third-row SUV instead of a compact sedan, and an iPhone 14.

It's no way to live, but it's a great place to invest.

PDXTabs

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2023, 01:38:14 PM »
Or Japan or any other number of countries that have had lost decades or worse, like the US back in the 60s.

You don't have to go back to the 60s. The 2000s saw negative real returns in the SP-500 after dividend reinvestment.

SilentC

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2023, 02:50:21 PM »
I don't see stocks in the US versus ex-US as an apples to apples comparison.

Whereas policy in the US is tilted toward maximizing returns to shareholders, other countries have other values, like system stability, equality, privacy, economic autonomy, etc. Chinese stocks, for example, are a completely different beast than US stocks because they exist in a country where corporations must serve the government's interests instead of vice versa. European IT firms exist within a regulatory paradigm that emphasizes the privacy of individuals, and therefore cannot do the sort of things Meta and TikTok and your bank do. These policy differences lead to big differences in returns to shareholders.

Also, there is no other country I'm aware of that has adopted consumerism and workaholism as its culture to the extent of the US. Americans work extremely hard to out-earn each other and to afford more plastic junk. People with disabilities, pregnant women, 70-year-olds - all must work or face homelessness or death from untreated medical conditions or exposure. The result is an economy that cycles through money very quickly, turning human lifespans into corporate profits with greater efficiency than anywhere else.

International may outperform from low levels as they become more like the US, but my money is on the system that compels people to start their 1 hour commutes at 5 a.m. and neglect their children so they can afford to buy 3 streaming services, a third-row SUV instead of a compact sedan, and an iPhone 14.

It's no way to live, but it's a great place to invest.

I agree with most of what you said but I think it’s changing super fast, and going from shareholder friendly super hardworking to slightly less hardworking and shareholder friendly could be devastating to US stocks if that happens (I’m not investing on this basis, just food for thought).  I did investment banking early on out of school and it was a badge of honor to put in 80+ hour weeks to make 100k salary at 22 and now you have people at Goldman, the pinnacle of banks crying about work-life balance.  Productivity is falling.  Kids I’m mentoring in business school are asking me about how to find work life balance meaning a 45 hour work week for single 22-23 year old graduates, which is an absolute 180 from pre Covid times.  Also people are having dogs instead of kids … it’s starting to feel like we are drifting towards a European lifestyle of short work weeks and pressured population growth.  But who knows maybe a few more years past Covid Gen Z and younger millennials will fall back in line?  Also the WTF level of handouts and debt forgiveness feels unsupportive of the hard work mentality.

Re shareholder friendliness, we seem to be a leader but the pendulum could be ready to swing there.  Look at the popularity of ESG and possible ESG disclosure requirements coming, share buyback taxes for corporations, threats of windfall profit taxes etc.  edit - grammar
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 04:26:45 PM by SilentC »

Scandium

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2023, 09:17:50 AM »
You can’t know, but you can assess a skewed probability and bet accordingly.  If something has mean reverted several times in a century you wouldn’t bet on eventual mean reversion?  Sure it could be randomness like flipping “heads” several times in a row but it costs almost nothing to re-allocate an index portfolio in an IRA so why not do it if the signal is fairly strong?

Is it?

Yes.  Go look at JPM guide to markets, or analyze the CAPE ratios or relative PEs and tell me it looks like a coin toss on 10 year returns.  Edit - for international vs US

I'm pretty sure I read the exact same thing in 2012-13, and international has done terrible compared to total US for 10+ years. US has had "OMG PE too high!" compared to most developed countries since the financial crisis rebound, but so far that has not gone the way the predictors have predicted.. My 40% international has cost me dearly. Maybe international will finally do well this decade? We'll see.

I hear what you were saying, but try thinking about it this way.  Having large allocations to other countries prevents very bad outcomes, like if you were living in Germany and started investing 15 years ago in a 100% EU portfolio that would have sucked! If MMM and J Collins were living in Germany 15 years ago it’s fairly likely they would have said to invest locally for all the same reasons people only invest in US like tax and transaction efficiencies, and then the FI movement would have gone nowhere because of a lack of instant gratification that many got from double digit S&P compounding and having 90% of their wealth in S&P.  Funny to think about really.  Or Japan or any other number of countries that have had lost decades or worse, like the US back in the 60s. 

I would have said the odds on bet was international 5 years ago and so far that has not panned out, but it doesn’t mean it was the wrong way to bet.  Most successful investors look for bets where the risk-reward is slightly skewed in their favor and making lots and lots of bets like that over time to where eventually they are like the casino.  Moreso than 5 years ago I think international is the best odds bet so I’m overweight.  It’s very subjective but dollar strength has been cyclical and intl vs US performance has been cyclical so I’m wagering the cyclicality will continue.  If I’m wrong I FI slower but it could be catastrophic if I’m right and the US has a lost decade while I end up compounding mid single digit in a blended portfolio.

Echo above; I don't think US vs Germany, or other Europeans countries is an accurate comparison. Germany is half the size of Texas alone, and about the same as california. Germany has 1/4 the population of the US as a whole, and both TX and CA has about half the German population by themselves. The GDP of CA alone is almost the same as Germany. Yes slightly more accurate to compare US to all of EU. Though US GDP is about 30% greater than the EU! The US is massive and diverse in climate, geography, people and industry, it's a continent disguised as a country. If the German MRM ("Herr Geld Schnurrbart"!) suggested 90-100% allocation to EU stocks that would still be more concentrated than 90% US. Especially once you look at sector and size factors.

Structurally as @ChpBstrd says there are big difference, both in Germany and the EU. Germany famously consists of massive, stogy industrial companies, and a huge slow-growth Mittelstand sector (supplying those big industries). And pathetically few new growth and IT businesses. Several other countries in the EU suffer from the same concentrations, government control and lack of innovation. Yes, partially because they don't have the ruthless (some might say inhumane) capitalism of the US.

And I'm not even one of those suggesting "100% US, USA the best!". I've had 40% international for 10 years now, though as mentioned I'm considering go to the lower end of 30% now (selling low..?). But I agree there is cyclicality to it, and at some point international must do better (it must right???). But at portfolio visualizer it's hard to spot many instanced of that going back to the 70s! It's also hard to imagine a market where both US and EU don't go up at the same time, or both go down. Everything is so interconnected these days anyway.

Scandium

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2023, 09:27:00 AM »
I agree with most of what you said but I think it’s changing super fast, and going from shareholder friendly super hardworking to slightly less hardworking and shareholder friendly could be devastating to US stocks if that happens (I’m not investing on this basis, just food for thought).  I did investment banking early on out of school and it was a badge of honor to put in 80+ hour weeks to make 100k salary at 22 and now you have people at Goldman, the pinnacle of banks crying about work-life balance.  Productivity is falling.  Kids I’m mentoring in business school are asking me about how to find work life balance meaning a 45 hour work week for single 22-23 year old graduates, which is an absolute 180 from pre Covid times.  Also people are having dogs instead of kids … it’s starting to feel like we are drifting towards a European lifestyle of short work weeks and pressured population growth.  But who knows maybe a few more years past Covid Gen Z and younger millennials will fall back in line?  Also the WTF level of handouts and debt forgiveness feels unsupportive of the hard work mentality.


This narrative don't quite hold up since the US is number 10 in productivity per capita, behind four European countries. All with much stronger welfare systems!
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-productive-countries

Turns out when a majority of your population is well-education by government, and not starving, saddle with debt their whole lives, sick with preventable diseases and exposed to pollution they work hard and spend money! Who would have thought!

My unsupported theory is that a large part of US economy is rent-seeking scams where people just take money from each other in a circle and don't produce anything. More so than anywhere outside banana republics and kleptocracies' (that are not the US..) 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 09:29:33 AM by Scandium »

Log

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2023, 09:35:33 AM »
...policy in the US is tilted toward maximizing returns to shareholders, other countries have other values, like system stability, equality, privacy, economic autonomy, etc...

^^^

That plus lower fee on VTI has swayed me. I started out in 100% VT for the perceived safety of diversification, but I really just don't expect international will outperform US any time soon. Their policies create a better society. Ours create better returns. If I'm gonna stick it out here for the money rather than escape to Europe, I might as well commit.

ETA:
Quote
My unsupported theory is that a large part of US economy is rent-seeking scams where people just take money from each other in a circle and don't produce anything. More so than anywhere outside banana republics and kleptocracies' (that are not the US..)

^Seconded. There's a whole great essay about the American glorification of grifting and scams in the book Trick Mirror, would highly recommend. When a society's highest value is consumerism, people are more willing to compromise their morals for money.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 09:38:08 AM by Log »

SilentC

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2023, 09:50:41 AM »
I agree with most of what you said but I think it’s changing super fast, and going from shareholder friendly super hardworking to slightly less hardworking and shareholder friendly could be devastating to US stocks if that happens (I’m not investing on this basis, just food for thought).  I did investment banking early on out of school and it was a badge of honor to put in 80+ hour weeks to make 100k salary at 22 and now you have people at Goldman, the pinnacle of banks crying about work-life balance.  Productivity is falling.  Kids I’m mentoring in business school are asking me about how to find work life balance meaning a 45 hour work week for single 22-23 year old graduates, which is an absolute 180 from pre Covid times.  Also people are having dogs instead of kids … it’s starting to feel like we are drifting towards a European lifestyle of short work weeks and pressured population growth.  But who knows maybe a few more years past Covid Gen Z and younger millennials will fall back in line?  Also the WTF level of handouts and debt forgiveness feels unsupportive of the hard work mentality.


This narrative don't quite hold up since the US is number 10 in productivity per capita, behind four European countries. All with much stronger welfare systems!
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-productive-countries

Turns out when a majority of your population is well-education by government, and not starving, saddle with debt their whole lives, sick with preventable diseases and exposed to pollution they work hard and spend money! Who would have thought!

My unsupported theory is that a large part of US economy is rent-seeking scams where people just take money from each other in a circle and don't produce anything. More so than anywhere outside banana republics and kleptocracies' (that are not the US..)

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2022/productivity-down-1-4-percent-real-hourly-compensation-down-3-4-percent-over-past-year.htm#:~:text=over%20past%20year-,Productivity%20down%201.4%20percent%2C%20real%20hourly%20compensation,3.4%20percent%2C%20over%20past%20year&text=From%20the%20third%20quarter%20of,percent%20increase%20in%20hours%20worked

The rate of change is important not the ranking.  You lose more money on a stock when things go from excellent to good than when things go from bad to bad.  Looking at OECD stacked rankings from 2021 is also not that helpful/backward looking and US productivity at 9/30 is down 3.4% y/y worst since the 1980s.  No one expects productivity from EU but they expect it from the US so muddling productivity is priced into EU stocks and productivity growth was priced into U.S. stocks.  Maybe this is partly why S&P is underperforming EFA lately even in USD basis (Intl is trouncing in local currency return %s on a 1 year basis).

mistymoney

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2023, 11:59:20 AM »
I find the distinction losses meaning increasingly over time. Are there any companies in the sp500 that are not multinational?

Radagast

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2023, 12:41:23 PM »
I find the distinction losses meaning increasingly over time. Are there any companies in the sp500 that are not multinational?
If the distinction is meaningless, then why has VFIAX tripled while VTIAX 1.5x'ed over the past 10 years? Isn't that a pretty meaningful distinction? I might have a very different definition of a meaningful investing result than you do.

PDXTabs

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2023, 12:49:52 PM »
I find the distinction losses meaning increasingly over time. Are there any companies in the sp500 that are not multinational?

Perhaps all SP500 companies are multinationals, but not all multinationals are SP500 companies. Here are some companies that to the best of my knowledge are not in the SP500 but are in ex-US ETFs:
Samsung
Shell
AstraZeneca
Novo Nordisk
Novantis
Toyota
BP
Siemens
TSMC

SilentC

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2023, 01:02:21 PM »
Where the company generates its revenues is just one variable.  Would you pay a higher multiple of earnings for a US company with half of its sales and profits in the US and half in China, or a Chinese company with half of its sales and profits in the US and half in China?

gary3411

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2023, 08:57:33 PM »
Productivity is great and all, but in the end, it's only a part of the equation with regards to return on investments. The ultimate driver of returns in stocks is profit. Some countries may have terrific productivity, but the profits are sucked up by various entities before being distributed to shareholders, therefore, providing lousy returns. This is why even though the US isn't the most productive country per capita and probably never will be, it is expected that it will keep the environment that allows profits to be distributed to shareholder, resulting in more highly valued stocks.

This environment can certainly change. There are policy proposals and politicians constantly trying to make the distribution of profits to shareholders more difficult. Luckily, to this point, they have been held off for the most part. But if that day ever comes and the US becomes as unfriendly to profit as these other countries, where will the returns come from? Will international become valued more now? Or will returns just suck everywhere? Or some third option? (Crypto?) Something to think about and keep an eye on.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 09:02:57 PM by gary3411 »

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2023, 09:26:20 PM »
https://www.callan.com/research/2021-classic-periodic-table/#

Follow the coloured squares, and diversify. You might tell from my spelling that I only have a 30% US allocation.

From that table, every 4-5 years is when Dev ex-US and Emerging beats Large Cap.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 09:35:44 PM by Heckler »

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2023, 07:11:00 AM »
Replying to follow, I've waffled from 100% VTSAX to 100% VTWAX and back again over the past 2 years, chasing returns and locking in losses. Trying to find a balance that will keep me from doing that, I'm thinking 75/25 VTSAX/VTIAX might be the middle ground where I'll be okay with either performing better, but I haven't pulled the trigger to get back in yet.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2023, 10:29:06 AM »
https://www.callan.com/research/2021-classic-periodic-table/#

Follow the coloured squares, and diversify. You might tell from my spelling that I only have a 30% US allocation.

From that table, every 4-5 years is when Dev ex-US and Emerging beats Large Cap.

It's interesting to see emerging markets equity at the top multiple years, but also at the bottom multiple years. Those wild swings mean a lot of down 25% requiring a 50% gain to recover.

Heckler

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2023, 06:27:48 PM »

It's interesting to see emerging markets equity at the top multiple years, but also at the bottom multiple years. Those wild swings mean a lot of down 25% requiring a 50% gain to recover.

But when you buy more at the bottom, the top swings back in pretty quickly.  That's why EM only gets 3% allocation in my books.  It's excellent training in buy-low sell-high. 

Heckler

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2023, 06:32:38 PM »
Replying to follow, I've waffled from 100% VTSAX to 100% VTWAX and back again over the past 2 years, chasing returns and locking in losses. Trying to find a balance that will keep me from doing that, I'm thinking 75/25 VTSAX/VTIAX might be the middle ground where I'll be okay with either performing better, but I haven't pulled the trigger to get back in yet.

Ouch.  Please write yourself an IPS.  Figure out a balance (don't forget about fixed income too), buy into it and then continue to buy the one that's at its lows as time goes on.  It works.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement#Asset_allocation_targets_and_rebalancing_ranges

Nobody knows if US or International will outperform tomorrow, let alone the next 10 years.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 06:35:49 PM by Heckler »

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2023, 06:40:50 PM »
...policy in the US is tilted toward maximizing returns to shareholders, other countries have other values, like system stability, equality, privacy, economic autonomy, etc...

^^^

That plus lower fee on VTI has swayed me. I started out in 100% VT for the perceived safety of diversification, but I really just don't expect international will outperform US any time soon. Their policies create a better society. Ours create better returns. If I'm gonna stick it out here for the money rather than escape to Europe, I might as well commit.

But Europe is only ~16% of the global stock market. You aren't just missing out of Europe. You are also missing out on Japan (the second largest market in the world), South Korea, Taiwan, Canada, Chile, Mexico, etc.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2023, 06:46:58 PM by PDXTabs »

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2023, 06:44:05 AM »
Replying to follow, I've waffled from 100% VTSAX to 100% VTWAX and back again over the past 2 years, chasing returns and locking in losses. Trying to find a balance that will keep me from doing that, I'm thinking 75/25 VTSAX/VTIAX might be the middle ground where I'll be okay with either performing better, but I haven't pulled the trigger to get back in yet.

Ouch.  Please write yourself an IPS.  Figure out a balance (don't forget about fixed income too), buy into it and then continue to buy the one that's at its lows as time goes on.  It works.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement#Asset_allocation_targets_and_rebalancing_ranges

Nobody knows if US or International will outperform tomorrow, let alone the next 10 years.

Oh I believe you. Read the entire wiki, plus the Bogleheads books as well.

I wrote in my IPS years ago "world market cap" as the basis for my stock allocation, but that didn't stop me from going back to all US when international continued to lag year after year, it's hard to watch when news sources only ever cite the growth of the US indices and it's much greater than you're getting. Hence the finding the right balance bit.

It's weird, but I feel like being world market cap and watching US overperform year after year is more painful than being all US and watching international overperform, probably that home-team bias. So far the posts in this thread have me thinking about getting back into international, but at a smaller allocation like 25%, which won't drag the portfolio as bad as VTWAX's 45% if international continues to lag US-only.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2023, 07:35:16 AM »
I continue to reduce my VTIAX contrary to the Vanguard president’s recent advice. Feels like no returns for 20 years. In addition to the points above about how US economy benefits from geography, size, diversity, scams/rent seeking, lobbying, there’s also the fact that the world’s money is invested in the US. Somewhat ironic then to look outside of US for returns when you’re inside the golden calf. Geopolitically, too, there’s no place I’d rather be. I often ask myself, how many more years can the US be on top? 10? 20? 30? In any event I think it’s a long horizon.

Yes I believe in emerging markets but there is just SO much development that has to happen and SO much corruption and inequality to overcome. Living in the US and saturated with profitably negative social media (which has been one of our recent successful exports) makes us blind to the incredible difficulties other countries face.

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2023, 08:13:04 AM »
Replying to follow, I've waffled from 100% VTSAX to 100% VTWAX and back again over the past 2 years, chasing returns and locking in losses. Trying to find a balance that will keep me from doing that, I'm thinking 75/25 VTSAX/VTIAX might be the middle ground where I'll be okay with either performing better, but I haven't pulled the trigger to get back in yet.

Ouch.  Please write yourself an IPS.  Figure out a balance (don't forget about fixed income too), buy into it and then continue to buy the one that's at its lows as time goes on.  It works.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement#Asset_allocation_targets_and_rebalancing_ranges

Nobody knows if US or International will outperform tomorrow, let alone the next 10 years.

Oh I believe you. Read the entire wiki, plus the Bogleheads books as well.

I wrote in my IPS years ago "world market cap" as the basis for my stock allocation, but that didn't stop me from going back to all US when international continued to lag year after year, it's hard to watch when news sources only ever cite the growth of the US indices and it's much greater than you're getting. Hence the finding the right balance bit.

It's weird, but I feel like being world market cap and watching US overperform year after year is more painful than being all US and watching international overperform, probably that home-team bias. So far the posts in this thread have me thinking about getting back into international, but at a smaller allocation like 25%, which won't drag the portfolio as bad as VTWAX's 45% if international continues to lag US-only.

I hear you. My world market cap of ~40% ex-US has been painful over the last 15 years.. Quick estimate in portfolio visualizer my total is 20% lower than it could have been. Sometimes I've been lazy and just done 50-50 when contributing to vanguard, so it has not actually slipped to over 45% international. I just rebalanced to 33% in my IRA, and will probably set to ~1/3 international from now on. Pretty much following your reasoning; there's more "gain" to being overweight US, than there is "loss" from not having international allocation. Looking at backtesting 1986-2022, international has actually outperformed quite a few times, but not enough to come out ahead. The drops are also more dramatic, and more frequent. The increased volatility and market swings don't seem to pay off.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 09:37:02 AM by Scandium »

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2023, 09:30:36 AM »
I don't see stocks in the US versus ex-US as an apples to apples comparison.

Whereas policy in the US is tilted toward maximizing returns to shareholders, other countries have other values, like system stability, equality, privacy, economic autonomy, etc. Chinese stocks, for example, are a completely different beast than US stocks because they exist in a country where corporations must serve the government's interests instead of vice versa. European IT firms exist within a regulatory paradigm that emphasizes the privacy of individuals, and therefore cannot do the sort of things Meta and TikTok and your bank do. These policy differences lead to big differences in returns to shareholders.

Also, there is no other country I'm aware of that has adopted consumerism and workaholism as its culture to the extent of the US. Americans work extremely hard to out-earn each other and to afford more plastic junk. People with disabilities, pregnant women, 70-year-olds - all must work or face homelessness or death from untreated medical conditions or exposure. The result is an economy that cycles through money very quickly, turning human lifespans into corporate profits with greater efficiency than anywhere else.

International may outperform from low levels as they become more like the US, but my money is on the system that compels people to start their 1 hour commutes at 5 a.m. and neglect their children so they can afford to buy 3 streaming services, a third-row SUV instead of a compact sedan, and an iPhone 14.

It's no way to live, but it's a great place to invest.

I agree with most of what you said but I think it’s changing super fast, and going from shareholder friendly super hardworking to slightly less hardworking and shareholder friendly could be devastating to US stocks if that happens (I’m not investing on this basis, just food for thought).  I did investment banking early on out of school and it was a badge of honor to put in 80+ hour weeks to make 100k salary at 22 and now you have people at Goldman, the pinnacle of banks crying about work-life balance.  Productivity is falling.  Kids I’m mentoring in business school are asking me about how to find work life balance meaning a 45 hour work week for single 22-23 year old graduates, which is an absolute 180 from pre Covid times.  Also people are having dogs instead of kids … it’s starting to feel like we are drifting towards a European lifestyle of short work weeks and pressured population growth.  But who knows maybe a few more years past Covid Gen Z and younger millennials will fall back in line?  Also the WTF level of handouts and debt forgiveness feels unsupportive of the hard work mentality.

Re shareholder friendliness, we seem to be a leader but the pendulum could be ready to swing there.  Look at the popularity of ESG and possible ESG disclosure requirements coming, share buyback taxes for corporations, threats of windfall profit taxes etc.  edit - grammar

There are a number of ways to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, and there are always people trying.

One method of change might be your concern about a cultural shift away from workaholism. However, I see American culture as fairly stable in that regard. Imagine how big this concern looked in the 1970s when there were literal hippies walking around, the smell of pot was everywhere, and unemployment was high. Well, actually the infamously workaholic 1980s and 1990s were right around the corner, cars and houses were getting fancier as the majority of people attempted to status signal, and women's entry into the workforce was about to drive societal economic efficiency beyond levels that were ever thought possible.

Another method to kill the goose would be if the US changed its form of government and became a one-party state like, say, Turkyie, Russia, Venezuela, El Salvador, Cuba, or Hungary. Single party or single person political domination almost never leads to good long-term shareholder returns because there are no checks and balances on corruption, because capital flees to more free places, because of brain drain, and a lot of other reasons. Sustaining one-party rule in the face of growing discontent requires creating a structure of corruption from the lowest police officer to the highest government officials, and this web of corrupted people protect the regime as a way of protecting their relative advantage in having access to illicit funds. Eventually this drains the economy and saps people's incentive to work.

There could still be a cultural shift toward uneconomic behaviors. For example, suppose half the population was caught up in a religious fervor or a new cult (this has happened historically - see the Roman Empire and Christianity or modern Turkyie under Islamist rule) that led them to not work as hard, to deprive their children of education, remove women from economic life, to make conspicuous economic sacrifices, accept lower living standards, or to focus on conflict with some "other" group of people internally or externally. Perhaps the simplest manifestation of this risk would be if the US experienced a civil war or insurgency. A collapse in government efficacy might lead to a situation like people in Hati are facing. A less dramatic version of a cultural shift would be for the legalization of cannaboids leading to half the population becoming unambitious, reducing productivity growth and business formation.

Finally, a big war or series of wars could devastate the US economy, government finances, and dollar. After enough time on a war footing, competing countries take over production of domestic economy items, and the US would be left with a massive debt and loss of reserve currency status. This is how the British Empire ended. Ray Dalio has some ideas on this scenario.

But I don't see any of these things happening. US culture is stable because it awards power to the sorts of people who keep it stable, the sorts of folks who hire lobbyists to keep the laws to their advantage and the sorts of folks whose money sets the media/social media / cultural values narratives. US culture has also moved more toward consumption of ads, which convey consumeristic values, which drives economic demand higher and higher, which leads even the most independent among us to keep up with the Joneses in some ways. We could face some insurgency/terrorism, but in the US context any resulting anxiety might simply compel people to consume and work more. People in even the most dysfunctional of cultures resist changing them.

Nonetheless, cultures DO change, and the above risk factors are something to watch for. I've considered that in the scenarios outlined above, a lot of wealth might flow out of the US and into things like Eurobonds, Southeast Asian banks and real estate, Indian stocks, etc. looking for a refuge. 1/6/21 got me thinking about the possibilities for quick changes.

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2023, 11:59:28 AM »
I don't see stocks in the US versus ex-US as an apples to apples comparison.

Whereas policy in the US is tilted toward maximizing returns to shareholders, other countries have other values, like system stability, equality, privacy, economic autonomy, etc. Chinese stocks, for example, are a completely different beast than US stocks because they exist in a country where corporations must serve the government's interests instead of vice versa. European IT firms exist within a regulatory paradigm that emphasizes the privacy of individuals, and therefore cannot do the sort of things Meta and TikTok and your bank do. These policy differences lead to big differences in returns to shareholders.

Also, there is no other country I'm aware of that has adopted consumerism and workaholism as its culture to the extent of the US. Americans work extremely hard to out-earn each other and to afford more plastic junk. People with disabilities, pregnant women, 70-year-olds - all must work or face homelessness or death from untreated medical conditions or exposure. The result is an economy that cycles through money very quickly, turning human lifespans into corporate profits with greater efficiency than anywhere else.

International may outperform from low levels as they become more like the US, but my money is on the system that compels people to start their 1 hour commutes at 5 a.m. and neglect their children so they can afford to buy 3 streaming services, a third-row SUV instead of a compact sedan, and an iPhone 14.

It's no way to live, but it's a great place to invest.

I agree with most of what you said but I think it’s changing super fast, and going from shareholder friendly super hardworking to slightly less hardworking and shareholder friendly could be devastating to US stocks if that happens (I’m not investing on this basis, just food for thought).  I did investment banking early on out of school and it was a badge of honor to put in 80+ hour weeks to make 100k salary at 22 and now you have people at Goldman, the pinnacle of banks crying about work-life balance.  Productivity is falling.  Kids I’m mentoring in business school are asking me about how to find work life balance meaning a 45 hour work week for single 22-23 year old graduates, which is an absolute 180 from pre Covid times.  Also people are having dogs instead of kids … it’s starting to feel like we are drifting towards a European lifestyle of short work weeks and pressured population growth.  But who knows maybe a few more years past Covid Gen Z and younger millennials will fall back in line?  Also the WTF level of handouts and debt forgiveness feels unsupportive of the hard work mentality.

Re shareholder friendliness, we seem to be a leader but the pendulum could be ready to swing there.  Look at the popularity of ESG and possible ESG disclosure requirements coming, share buyback taxes for corporations, threats of windfall profit taxes etc.  edit - grammar

There are a number of ways to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, and there are always people trying.

One method of change might be your concern about a cultural shift away from workaholism. However, I see American culture as fairly stable in that regard. Imagine how big this concern looked in the 1970s when there were literal hippies walking around, the smell of pot was everywhere, and unemployment was high. Well, actually the infamously workaholic 1980s and 1990s were right around the corner, cars and houses were getting fancier as the majority of people attempted to status signal, and women's entry into the workforce was about to drive societal economic efficiency beyond levels that were ever thought possible.

Another method to kill the goose would be if the US changed its form of government and became a one-party state like, say, Turkyie, Russia, Venezuela, El Salvador, Cuba, or Hungary. Single party or single person political domination almost never leads to good long-term shareholder returns because there are no checks and balances on corruption, because capital flees to more free places, because of brain drain, and a lot of other reasons. Sustaining one-party rule in the face of growing discontent requires creating a structure of corruption from the lowest police officer to the highest government officials, and this web of corrupted people protect the regime as a way of protecting their relative advantage in having access to illicit funds. Eventually this drains the economy and saps people's incentive to work.

There could still be a cultural shift toward uneconomic behaviors. For example, suppose half the population was caught up in a religious fervor or a new cult (this has happened historically - see the Roman Empire and Christianity or modern Turkyie under Islamist rule) that led them to not work as hard, to deprive their children of education, remove women from economic life, to make conspicuous economic sacrifices, accept lower living standards, or to focus on conflict with some "other" group of people internally or externally. Perhaps the simplest manifestation of this risk would be if the US experienced a civil war or insurgency. A collapse in government efficacy might lead to a situation like people in Hati are facing. A less dramatic version of a cultural shift would be for the legalization of cannaboids leading to half the population becoming unambitious, reducing productivity growth and business formation.

Finally, a big war or series of wars could devastate the US economy, government finances, and dollar. After enough time on a war footing, competing countries take over production of domestic economy items, and the US would be left with a massive debt and loss of reserve currency status. This is how the British Empire ended. Ray Dalio has some ideas on this scenario.

But I don't see any of these things happening. US culture is stable because it awards power to the sorts of people who keep it stable, the sorts of folks who hire lobbyists to keep the laws to their advantage and the sorts of folks whose money sets the media/social media / cultural values narratives. US culture has also moved more toward consumption of ads, which convey consumeristic values, which drives economic demand higher and higher, which leads even the most independent among us to keep up with the Joneses in some ways. We could face some insurgency/terrorism, but in the US context any resulting anxiety might simply compel people to consume and work more. People in even the most dysfunctional of cultures resist changing them.

Nonetheless, cultures DO change, and the above risk factors are something to watch for. I've considered that in the scenarios outlined above, a lot of wealth might flow out of the US and into things like Eurobonds, Southeast Asian banks and real estate, Indian stocks, etc. looking for a refuge. 1/6/21 got me thinking about the possibilities for quick changes.

Very interesting themes to think about.  And yes who would have thought 1/6/21 would have happened!

HeadedWest2029

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2023, 12:22:51 PM »
When people say the last 10 years as an international investor has been painful, yes, I agree.  However, I'd argue 10 years isn't really long for a long-term investor.  International outperformed for FORTY years from 1969 to 2009 before US stocks went on a tear https://www.longtermtrends.net/msci-usa-vs-the-world/.  That doesn't meant that it has to revert of course, but international outperforming the past wasn't necessarily a blip on the radar.

Also, US outperformance has a lot to do with the strength of the dollar and for the first time in awhile the USD is softening vs other currencies.  If you look at a chart of EURO vs the USD, the US stock outperformance pretty cleanly maps to the falling value of EURO to USD.  https://www.macrotrends.net/2548/euro-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart  Notice how the recent 3 month ex-US stock market outperformance also coincides with the fall in USD.  Same thing happened in the 2000s...EURO was ripping and ex-US outperformed US. 

PDXTabs

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2023, 12:34:09 PM »
Also, there is no other country I'm aware of that has adopted consumerism and workaholism as its culture to the extent of the US. Americans work extremely hard to out-earn each other and to afford more plastic junk.

I don't know about the consumerism and plastic junk, but in Japan they actually have a word for working yourself to death: Karoshi. My brother who spent most of his career in Asia (Japan, China, Singapore) consistently got less paid vacation than I did in the USA as a white collar professional. Guardian: Japanese woman 'dies from overwork' after logging 159 hours of overtime in a month.

Obviously, I don't think that working your people to death is good for business. But have you ever actually talked to someone who works in South Korea as a white collar professional? It's more workaholic than the USA. Speaking of which, that's where Samsung is.

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2023, 02:21:48 PM »
When people say the last 10 years as an international investor has been painful, yes, I agree.  However, I'd argue 10 years isn't really long for a long-term investor.  International outperformed for FORTY years from 1969 to 2009 before US stocks went on a tear https://www.longtermtrends.net/msci-usa-vs-the-world/.  That doesn't meant that it has to revert of course, but international outperforming the past wasn't necessarily a blip on the radar.

Also, US outperformance has a lot to do with the strength of the dollar and for the first time in awhile the USD is softening vs other currencies.  If you look at a chart of EURO vs the USD, the US stock outperformance pretty cleanly maps to the falling value of EURO to USD.  https://www.macrotrends.net/2548/euro-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart  Notice how the recent 3 month ex-US stock market outperformance also coincides with the fall in USD.  Same thing happened in the 2000s...EURO was ripping and ex-US outperformed US.
There is definitely a huge currency component to the international bet. And a value component and a commodities component.  It’s impossible to truly predict these things which is the argument for looking at big picture quantitative indicators which ultimately lead you having a global portfolio.

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2023, 04:02:37 PM »
I'm not impressed with narratives that explain past 10 years of out performance.
1989: Japan is more innovative, better work culture and productivity, better management, better efficiency, better quality, will dominate. US makes outdated products more suited to 1960, and markets went nearly nowhere for last 25 years. Next 10 years: opposite.
1999: US has way better ideas and more innovative, future growth to sky. Other countries are backwards. Next 10 years: opposite.
2009: US is a warmongering basket case of fraud and mismanagement resulting in well deserved lost decade, treats workers poorly. Future is in growing emerging markets and Eurozone which has better social and fiscal policy plus single currency is bigger and better. Next 10 years: opposite.
2019: International has gone nowhere for 25 years, poor work ethic, noncompetitive, lack of innovation, politically disorganized basket case, losers. US has better work culture, innovation, emphasizes corporate profit above all, more productive. Next 10 years: ?

I'm also not impressed with narratives that don't take changing company valuations and currency valuations into account. This isn't a precise number, and anyone can look it up and correct me. Over the past 10 years US stocks have out performed international by 7% annualized. Of this, 3% was valuation changes, 3% was currency fluctuation, and 1% was better companies doing better. So any explanation about why US companies do better because they are better is 85% wrong (unless it mentions prices growing well out of proportion to underlying company performance, and unpredictable currency changes). If my explanation was demonstrably 85% wrong about the past 10 years, I would not feel very confident about my ability to predict the next 10 years.

Which is to say simply: Where were all the predictions about US companies blinding amazingness in 2010? Why did we have to wait until now to get them?

After all that, I am actually agnostic about which will do better going forward, which is why I am 50/50.

And currency would be a good reason for a US investor to systematically underweight international. Ideally international should be about 25-30% of total portfolio from a currency perspective, but that can fluctuate greatly. Currency changes can be large and persistent, such as the Swiss Franc strengthening for decades and making the Swiss rue investing internationally. If the US dollar will be the Franc of the next 50 years that would be a great reason to stick to the US.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2023, 05:14:24 PM »
We haven’t mentioned perhaps the number one factor behind the United States economy: immigration. Almost half of all Fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrants or their children.

If immigration to the US were to be severely curtailed, I would be extremely concerned.

gary3411

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2023, 07:01:50 PM »
We haven’t mentioned perhaps the number one factor behind the United States economy: immigration. Almost half of all Fortune 500 companies are founded by immigrants or their children.

If immigration to the US were to be severely curtailed, I would be extremely concerned.

Ehh. I'm sure it helps and immigrants bring hard work and ideas in the general sense I feel. But that cohort is already like 30% of working population. So saying 50% did something, with a 30% representation is good, I doubt it's a game changer, and could even be within statistical luck (forgot proper name).

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2023, 09:03:03 PM »
Ya'll have me thinking. But I still don't know what to think. :)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2023, 08:52:56 AM by BicycleB »

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2023, 09:46:34 AM »
https://news.mit.edu/2022/study-immigrants-more-likely-start-firms-create-jobs-0509

Quote
Immigrants to the U.S. are more likely to start businesses than native-born Americans are, according to a study that takes a wide-ranging look at registered businesses across the country.

Co-authored by an MIT economist, the study finds that, per capita, immigrants are about 80 percent more likely to found a firm, compared to U.S.-born citizens. Those firms also have about 1 percent more employees than those founded by U.S. natives, on average.

“Immigrants, relative to natives and relative to their share of the population, found more firms of every size,” says Pierre Azoulay, an economist at the MIT Sloan School of Management and co-author of a published paper detailing the study’s results.

Taking firm creation into account, the results indicate that immigration to the U.S. is associated with a net gain in job availability, contrary to the common perception that immigrants fill jobs that U.S.-born workers would otherwise have.

“The findings suggest that immigrants act more as ‘job creators’ than ‘job takers’ and that non-U.S. born founders play outsized roles in U.S. high-growth entrepreneurship,” the authors write in the paper.

The paper, “Immigration and Entrepreneurship in the United States,” appears in the spring issue of American Economic Review: Insights. The authors are Azoulay, who is the International Programs Professor of Management at MIT Sloan; Benjamin Jones, the Gordon and Llura Gund Professor of Entrepreneurship and a professor of strategy at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management; J. Daniel Kim PhD ’20, an assistant professor of management at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School; and Javier Miranda, a principal economist at the U.S. Census Bureau.


VanillaGorilla

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2023, 10:30:34 AM »
The problem with international diversification is that when the US market crashes the rest of the world follows. So when you need diversification, you don't get it.

I have never found any historical data to suggest to me that holding ex-US equities is valuable, particularly in a FI context.

I'm happy to acknowledge the limitations of the US but I think it's hard for the next 30 years to tilt away from the US. The US is big, innovative, and diverse, with an excellent higher education system. China and India are communistic and corrupt, Europe is entrenched and stagnant. The rest are tiny market caps.

I'm holding US.

PDXTabs

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2023, 10:51:34 AM »
The problem with international diversification is that when the US market crashes the rest of the world follows. So when you need diversification, you don't get it.

I have never found any historical data to suggest to me that holding ex-US equities is valuable, particularly in a FI context.

From the article that you posted:


That grey line, that's my portfolio. And it is even more extreme if you extend it out another three years. EDITed to add: well, maybe not extreme. But grey is positive and blue is negative in real terms.

I'm happy to acknowledge the limitations of the US but I think it's hard for the next 30 years to tilt away from the US. The US is big, innovative, and diverse, with an excellent higher education system. China and India are communistic and corrupt, Europe is entrenched and stagnant. The rest are tiny market caps.

I'm holding US.

You can do whatever you want with your money, but Japan+South Korea+Taiwan is currently something like 9.2% of the total world stock market and just happens to include Samsung, TSMC, and Toyota.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 10:58:19 AM by PDXTabs »

SilentC

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Re: Total US market vs Total International ex-US, the next 10 years
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2023, 10:21:50 PM »
The problem with international diversification is that when the US market crashes the rest of the world follows. So when you need diversification, you don't get it.

I have never found any historical data to suggest to me that holding ex-US equities is valuable, particularly in a FI context.

From the article that you posted:


That grey line, that's my portfolio. And it is even more extreme if you extend it out another three years. EDITed to add: well, maybe not extreme. But grey is positive and blue is negative in real terms.

I'm happy to acknowledge the limitations of the US but I think it's hard for the next 30 years to tilt away from the US. The US is big, innovative, and diverse, with an excellent higher education system. China and India are communistic and corrupt, Europe is entrenched and stagnant. The rest are tiny market caps.

I'm holding US.

You can do whatever you want with your money, but Japan+South Korea+Taiwan is currently something like 9.2% of the total world stock market and just happens to include Samsung, TSMC, and Toyota.

Nice reply PDX.  Not trying to crap on anyone but a lot of people really wear blinders and make assumptions about market history here and this is a great chart to show.  Also people don’t seem to get that when everyone views something as totally obvious (strength of American capitalism etc.) very often it is priced into the stocks and any shift to that view can cause a massive re-rating to valuations. From a FI perspective the global diversification is massively beneficial, there is plenty written about it.