Author Topic: Aaaaand the bear market is over  (Read 9007 times)

DreamFIRE

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #100 on: January 19, 2019, 04:44:15 PM »

right so its not the wall that is fundamentally opposed, it's the cost and the perception that Trump was going to send Mexico an invoice and they were going to willingly pay it.  That was what I assumed as well, but looking back it was a bad assumption given how complex negotiations can be between countries.

and it's not like the cost of the wall and maintenance of the wall will be a  sunk cost, there are other areas of our country and economy that may benefit from it.  Not to mention saftey and taking measures to uphold the law.
  I'm a supporter of Trump and many of his policies including a boarder wall. I have no problem with immigrants, I'm married to one. But everyone should come in legally, and we should know who they are.
 As far as Mexico paying for the wall, I never thought that Mexico was going to write a check, and anyone that did think that just plain forgot to wear there thinking cap.
  It was just rhetoric concerning trade policy, plain and apparently not so simple.

Agreed.  Illegal immigration costs the country trillions of dollars over the long run.

We don't even need Mexico to pay for the wall because the wall will pay for itself.  I think the shutdown has cost the country more than the $5 billion Trump wants for the wall.

One thing I've noticed from the left is that they always seem to assume that building a wall means all of the other enforcement mechanisms go away.  That's illogical.  The wall doesn't solve everything by itself, but it's just one important piece of the border security and immigration enforcement pie.

BTDretire

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #101 on: January 19, 2019, 05:21:06 PM »

right so its not the wall that is fundamentally opposed, it's the cost and the perception that Trump was going to send Mexico an invoice and they were going to willingly pay it.  That was what I assumed as well, but looking back it was a bad assumption given how complex negotiations can be between countries.

and it's not like the cost of the wall and maintenance of the wall will be a  sunk cost, there are other areas of our country and economy that may benefit from it.  Not to mention saftey and taking measures to uphold the law.
  I'm a supporter of Trump and many of his policies including a boarder wall. I have no problem with immigrants, I'm married to one. But everyone should come in legally, and we should know who they are.
 As far as Mexico paying for the wall, I never thought that Mexico was going to write a check, and anyone that did think that just plain forgot to wear there thinking cap.
  It was just rhetoric concerning trade policy, plain and apparently not so simple.

Agreed.  Illegal immigration costs the country trillions of dollars over the long run.

We don't even need Mexico to pay for the wall because the wall will pay for itself.  I think the shutdown has cost the country more than the $5 billion Trump wants for the wall.

One thing I've noticed from the left is that they always seem to assume that building a wall means all of the other enforcement mechanisms go away.  That's illogical.  The wall doesn't solve everything by itself, but it's just one important piece of the border security and immigration enforcement pie.
At this point we have all seen the 2009 video of Schumer, he had very good a arguments for immigration reform, and now that Trump is president he wants none of it. Doesn't want Trump to get the credit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8z2L42qedM&t=148s
 You can watch all 4 parts with a search of
>Schumer (Part (x) of 4) - 6th Annual Immigration Law and< x= 1, 2,3 or 4.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #102 on: January 19, 2019, 05:28:04 PM »
In my humble opinion, this stopped being about the wall last December.  It's now all about whether we want to crown Trump king, or whether we wish to remain a democratic republic with separate but equal branches of government.

The last senate voted in a spending bill that the new house has also now passed.  The will of the American people has been clearly expressed, whether you personally agree with it or not.  Now one executive, and one senate majority leader, stand in the way of the will of the people becoming law; opening up the government, so that the innocent hostages can feed their families, and get paid for work they've already done. 

How does forcing federal employees to work for free, perhaps indefinitely, somehow equal the moral high ground?  How does their suffering, our fellow citizens, further the cause of border security in whatever form it might take?

Trump is clearly saying, "surrender your democracy, or I will starve your citizens and wreck your economy."  You don't negotiate with that.  You don't split the difference with that.  You fight it like your freedom depends on it, simply because it does depend on it.

If the democrats cave now, you can expect the executive to hold federal employees hostage from here on out in order to force unilateral policy decisions down the collective throats of congress.  There is little the Democrats offer on policy decisions that I can agree with.  But they now have no choice in this shutdown matter.  They can't negotiate policy with a hostage-taker while he still holds the hostages captive; otherwise, the hostage taking will never end.

The debt limit comes up in March.  If Trump gets his way with this disgraceful budget tactic, you can bet that Trump will hold all social security recipients hostage for whatever his next vanity project is.  Social security doesn't get paid without passing a new debt limit.  Any one of you with aged relatives care to explain to them how, next April, the ongoing fight over the wall is somehow more important than them receiving their social security checks and eating?

Full disclosure, I'm a centrist with republican leanings.  But I will never forgive the Republican party for forcing me to vote a full Democratic ticket -- for the first time in my life -- in the next election.  Last month I converted from a never-Hillary voter to an anyone-but-Trump voter.   And if Mitch McConnell doesn't stop licking Trump's boots pretty damn soon, and do his job, I won't be very far at all from becoming a never-Republican voter as well.  McConnell is collecting a regular paycheck for not doing his job, while he is perfectly content to support Trump forcing federal employees to work for free, and wrecking the small businesses that depend on those federal employees spending part of their paycheck in those businesses.

</RANT>

#SaveTheDemocracyFirst
#ArgueAboutEverythingElseLater
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 09:29:37 PM by ILikeDividends »

pecunia

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #103 on: January 19, 2019, 09:29:09 PM »
--SNIP--

Full disclosure, I'm a centrist with republican leanings.  But I will never forgive the Republican party for forcing me to vote a full Democratic ticket -- for the first time in my life -- in the next election.  Last month I converted from a never-Hillary voter to an anyone-but-Trump voter.   And if Mitch McConnell doesn't stop licking Trump's boots pretty damn soon, and do his job, I won't be very far at all from becoming a never-Republican voter as well.  McConnell is collecting a regular paycheck for not doing his job, while he is perfectly content to support Trump forcing federal employees to work for free, and wrecking the small businesses that depend on those federal employees spending part of their paycheck in those businesses.

</RANT>

So - Who do you really blame?  Trump - Let's just say he's more than a bit erratic.  Blaming him would be like blaming a piece of furniture for being the wrong color.  McConnell - He could bust the dam, get a vote and get the country moving again.  He has led the do nothing Senate quite a while.  Has he demonstrated a willingness to help the American people?  Or - The Democrats; Politics is the art of compromise.  Is giving in to a "wall" so bad?  I am beginning to wonder if any of them put the people first.

How long would it take to build such a wall?  How long would it take to design and plan this wall?  Shouldn't this wall be studied well before construction begins?  The wall could be approved, sections built and cancelled after Trump is voted out of office in 2020.  Far less money would be spent on this wall than was agreed to be given back to the rich in the last tax cut.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #104 on: January 19, 2019, 09:40:32 PM »
So - Who do you really blame?
Trump, first, for deciding to take American citizens hostage as a bargaining chit on a policy issue that even his own Republican government couldn't agree on last year.  And McConnell, second, for enabling that decision to continue with no end in sight.

And please, let's not dance around the fact that Trump proudly took credit for shutting the government down in front of the whole world.  It's a matter of public record, so I'm not willing to debate that fact, if that's where you want to go with this.

Quote
How long would it take to build such a wall?  How long would it take to design and plan this wall?  Shouldn't this wall be studied well before construction begins?  The wall could be approved, sections built and cancelled after Trump is voted out of office in 2020.  Far less money would be spent on this wall than was agreed to be given back to the rich in the last tax cut.
All good questions that should be decided by the duly elected legislature -- after the government is opened.

Now, a question for you.  What do any of your points have to do with wrecking the lives of American citizens, endangering food supply and food safety for all of us (Dept of Agriculture), FDA, Air Traffic Control, DHS, and border security personel, among others, who are not getting paid right now?

How does that "Make America Great Again"?

You don't compromise with someone who insists that you surrender your freedom as a precondition for negotiation.  You just don't.  That shouldn't be a red vs blue issue.  Set Trump's hostages free, and then argue to your heart's content about the wall after doing that.

I am definitely not a Democrat.  But my eyes are wide open.  Apart from a pitifully few good Republicans, Democrats are the only party standing in opposition of an overthrow of our democracy by a want-to-be dictator right now.

Trump is an existential threat.  McConnell is aiding and abetting.  Neither one of them are upholding their oath of office.  The wall might matter someday, but please agree with me, at the very least, that a wall right now most certainly isn't more important than feeding your elder relatives right now.  They will be the next Trump hostages in the not-too-distant future if you don't raise your voice in opposition of Trump's dictatorial demands right now.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 05:00:51 AM by ILikeDividends »

sol

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2019, 10:34:13 PM »
You don't compromise with someone who insists that you surrender your freedom as a precondition for negotiation.  You just don't.  That shouldn't be a red vs blue issue.  Set Trump's hostages free, and then argue to your heart's content about the wall.

Just imagine the situation if democrats in 2008 had not won a supermajority in the Senate, and Obama had demanded that republicans pass the Affordable Care Act or else he was going to close the United States government and put a few million folks out of work.  The howls of derision from Fox would have made the current kerfuffle look like a picnic brunch.  Just the mere suggestion that a president might do such a thing would have been called treason.

pecunia

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #106 on: Today at 05:36:52 AM »
So - Who do you really blame?
Trump, first, for deciding to take American citizens hostage as a bargaining chit on a policy issue that even his own Republican government couldn't agree on last year.  And McConnell, second, for enabling that decision to continue with no end in sight.

And please, let's not dance around the fact that Trump proudly took credit for shutting the government down in front of the whole world.  It's a matter of public record, so I'm not willing to debate that fact, if that's where you want to go with this.

Quote
How long would it take to build such a wall?  How long would it take to design and plan this wall?  Shouldn't this wall be studied well before construction begins?  The wall could be approved, sections built and cancelled after Trump is voted out of office in 2020.  Far less money would be spent on this wall than was agreed to be given back to the rich in the last tax cut.
All good questions that should be decided by the duly elected legislature -- after the government is opened.

Now, a question for you.  What do any of your points have to do with wrecking the lives of American citizens, endangering food supply and food safety for all of us (Dept of Agriculture), FDA, Air Traffic Control, DHS, and border security personel, among others, who are not getting paid right now?

How does that "Make America Great Again"?

You don't compromise with someone who insists that you surrender your freedom as a precondition for negotiation.  You just don't.  That shouldn't be a red vs blue issue.  Set Trump's hostages free, and then argue to your heart's content about the wall after doing that.

I am definitely not a Democrat.  But my eyes are wide open.  Apart from a pitifully few good Republicans, Democrats are the only party standing in opposition of an overthrow of our democracy by a want-to-be dictator right now.

Trump is an existential threat.  McConnell is aiding and abetting.  Neither one of them are upholding their oath of office.  The wall might matter someday, but please agree with me, at the very least, that a wall right now most certainly isn't more important than feeding your elder relatives right now.  They will be the next Trump hostages in the not-too-distant future if you don't raise your voice in opposition of Trump's dictatorial demands right now.

America has been running downhill for many years before Trump.  Trump is just a symptom.  He is not the disease.  Democrats will oppose Trump until their corporate masters tell them to stop.  Why they have allowed it so long is beyond me.  There must be money to be made somehow.  Same with McConnell.

I guess it is like the big tax cut they did last year.  The corporate types make money by not paying taxes and then can loan money to the government to cover the shortfall.  And you pay for their windfall.  The corporate types will be able to loan the government money to get things on track after this is over.  Corporations are probably loaning money to the families that are out of work.  I guess the country is presently being run by a sort of Aristocracy who really don't care about the ordinary people.  Trump was born with a silver spoon in his mouth so you can't expect him to understand.  McConnell has been bought for a long time.

Will it make the country "great" again?  No, but it will certainly help opportunists of some stripe who rub their hands with glee during this type of chaos.  The dogs of profit are salivating. 

What does making the country "great" really mean?  Is it great for short term opportunists?  Is it great for the military industrial complex? 

It is smart in these days to keep your eyes wide open as you are doing.

We are off track.  This is to be about the upcoming bear market.  Maybe we've still got 2019.

DS

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #107 on: Today at 08:38:29 AM »
Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.