Author Topic: Timing the market again.....  (Read 1917 times)

joenorm

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Timing the market again.....
« on: March 04, 2025, 07:27:58 AM »
It just so happens that I am currently in the process of selling 3 rental properties.

When it's all said and done I will have around $250K to invest.

I know we don't time the market(generally I do not) but with tariffs enacted today and the stock market falling and a general feeling of uncertainty looming, is there a different approach for current times?

On the flip side maybe today in particular is a great time to plunk a big chunk in the market, seeing how it has dropped.

Thoughts on current times?

ScreamingHeadGuy

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2025, 07:40:03 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/27/the-inspiring-story-of-the-worst-market-timer-ever.html

This has been around for a while, now, and you could probably find a more updated analysis.

joenorm

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2025, 08:05:25 AM »
I know I know, I have read all that stuff before.

Just hard not to think the current times are different

ChpBstrd

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2025, 08:30:12 AM »
It kinda depends...

Are you a retiree needing a steady and uninterrupted source of income?
Are you far from retirement and seeking long-term capital growth?
Are you investing for a short period of time before buying a home, starting a business, buying more rentals, etc?
Are you a value investor who got into the properties because they were a good value, got out because they are no longer a good value, and looking for the next bargain?
Do you intend to leave an estate for your heirs or favorite charities?

These answers might make the question a moot point, if for example, your situation and goals call for a 3-year agency bond yielding 4.5%, a CD ladder, or a preferred stock portfolio yielding 6% or selling covered put options.

ATtiny85

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2025, 09:07:32 AM »
Buy into your asset allocation when you have money.

LD_TAndK

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2025, 10:24:04 AM »
If you want to reduce your downside risk, dollar cost average. Invest 10k per month for the next 25+ months for example. You'll probably end up with less money overall but reduce the risk of seeing your investment halve.

Don't stay out of the market trying to time the crash.

vand

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2025, 10:57:20 AM »
If you don't invest your next $250k exactly the same way as your next $250 then you need to revisit your asset allocation.


Rob_bob

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2025, 12:14:41 PM »
If I had a lump sum to invest I would be happier to invest during a market pull back than a rally.

If I had serious concerns over the economy I would DCA but in big chunks like in thirds.  That is basically what I did in 2007 when I had a major lump sum, I got some in near the top, some more on the way down and the last on the way up.

theoverlook

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2025, 03:10:50 PM »
"I know market timing doesn't work, but maybe it'll work this time!"

I actually am also nervous, like you, at this moment feeling all historic-y and such. But it's impossible to predict what the market will do. What I would do if I had $250k to drop into the market all at once right now? I don't know! I've been trickling in for so long that I'm comfortable with that, but $250k at once might feel like a "should I be buying land and ammo" moment. Which, no, you shouldn't.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2025, 04:48:36 PM »
My goal would be avoiding regret, not the theoretical optimum performance.  You can pick a time horizon, and "dollar cost average" into the market over that horizon.  Or pick bite-sized chunks you will buy periodically.

The best argument for keeping a cash reserve is that Warren Buffet is doing just that - Berkshire has the largest cash pile in its history.  I assume he's waiting for overly high prices to correct, at which point he'll buy.

SilentC

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2025, 05:01:00 AM »
My goal would be avoiding regret, not the theoretical optimum performance.  You can pick a time horizon, and "dollar cost average" into the market over that horizon.  Or pick bite-sized chunks you will buy periodically.

The best argument for keeping a cash reserve is that Warren Buffet is doing just that - Berkshire has the largest cash pile in its history.  I assume he's waiting for overly high prices to correct, at which point he'll buy.

Not only does he have the biggest cash pile in history, the fair value of his public equities portfolio declined by 20% in 2024.  In other words he’s really taken a hack saw to his portfolio.  Happy investing!

ChpBstrd

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2025, 06:50:55 AM »
ImmediateAnnuities.com is offering me, based on my age, gender, and state, a 6.03% payment for the rest of my life, with the first 10 years of payments due to my beneficiaries if I die within those 10 years. So your $250k would translate into $15,075 of income for life, or at least a decade. Comparably safe bonds are only yielding about 4.5% now.

There is a certain appeal here for someone like myself, with a portfolio at about 20x spending. The one reason I can't retire at this moment is because of the risk that a bad sequence of stock market returns lurks in the future*. The annuity offers a positive real return compared to our current 3% CPI, and could insulate some large percentage of my income from market swings. If I could do that, I could shrink the risk of SORR.   

So consider this to be a floor on the types of returns you can accept, and a very-low-risk alternative to stocks, at a level of return that exceeds long-range forecasts of equity returns from the likes of Vanguard

*I suppose a second reason is that bonds are not currently yielding about 8%. If they were, I could simply adopt a 100% bond portfolio, withdraw 5%, and let the other 3% compound to address future inflation. The reason I (unfortunately) stayed mostly out of the market in late 2022 through early 2023 was to exploit this free-ticket-to-early-retirement scenario if it happened. Didn't pan out, but was probably worth the shot.

joenorm

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2025, 07:28:09 AM »
Thanks for all the replies.

As far as time in the market, I am 41 now so figure I have 10 years minimum until retirement. I haven't been able to get my shit together enough to do a case study here, but I'd like to.

When people say Warren Buffett is holding cash, what does that actually mean? He obviously doesn't have briefcases in his basement. So what does "cash" mean on that scale?

I'm not even a doom and gloom guy at all. But I cannot help feel a little creeped out by what's going on in the white house. Not to mention listening to predictions of AGI becoming smarter than the average human within the next two years. How the heck does that affect the market.

Feels like a true paradigm shift may be coming. Granted, it's totally possible the market will just keep trucking along like always.


solon

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2025, 07:44:36 AM »
I know we shouldn't time the market, but should we time the market?

FireLane

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2025, 07:44:47 AM »
When people say Warren Buffett is holding cash, what does that actually mean? He obviously doesn't have briefcases in his basement. So what does "cash" mean on that scale?

It's probably in money market instruments, which are short-term, very-low-risk securities issued by governments and corporations to meet their day-to-day funding needs. It could be Treasury bills or commercial paper.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2025, 08:21:07 AM »
I know we shouldn't time the market, but should we time the market?
I mean, if you have time, maybe consider timing the market?

And by time, I mean a willingness to work a long time longer.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2025, 08:21:20 AM »
I think "macro timing" is reasonable for some folks, however DJT and the MAGA crowd worry me more than the usual debt cycles, so any allocation adjustments I make will be minor in scale.

During the 2008 crisis I did a cash-deal for a house that has served us very well. I also made an allocation shuffle toward more equities for the pandemic crash and was happily surprised by speedy recovery.

joenorm

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2025, 08:33:13 AM »
I know we shouldn't time the market, but should we time the market?

Everyones favorite response

dcheesi

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2025, 08:37:33 AM »
When people say Warren Buffett is holding cash, what does that actually mean? He obviously doesn't have briefcases in his basement. So what does "cash" mean on that scale?

It's probably in money market instruments, which are short-term, very-low-risk securities issued by governments and corporations to meet their day-to-day funding needs. It could be Treasury bills or commercial paper.
And this is one of the things about trying to hunker down in "safe" investments. If you really think things are going to go that badly, where is your money really safe?

Either our federal and financial systems will weather this storm, and eventually recover, or else they may fail catastrophically, at which point even T-bills might not be worth the paper they're (theoretically) printed on. In the former scenario, the usual arguments against market-timing apply; in the latter, nowhere is necessarily "safe", so I don't see a point in up-ending your whole portfolio chasing the illusion of safety in a particular asset class.

The only thing I think might be prudent is diversification, to hedge against unexpected losses in one or more sectors. But that's prudent in "normal" circumstances as well.

LightStache

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2025, 10:03:39 AM »
I think "macro timing" is reasonable for some folks, however DJT and the MAGA crowd worry me more than the usual debt cycles, so any allocation adjustments I make will be minor in scale.

During the 2008 crisis I did a cash-deal for a house that has served us very well. I also made an allocation shuffle toward more equities for the pandemic crash and was happily surprised by speedy recovery.


This is kind of my approach, which I consider semi-passive. I exited US large cap ETFs Q3/Q4 and rotated into cash/bonds.

I've watched the Atlanta Fed GDP Nowcast for years and I don't remember a plunge like the past week. It's volatile though, so I expect a rebound to some extent. Things are looking fragile. Even if the tariffs are reversed, the policy uncertainty will inhibit business investment.

If I was getting $250K in cash, I'd drop it in short term treasuries and wait at least a quarter before deciding whether to start DCA'ing. Psychologically I just wouldn't feel good about throwing money at something like VTI/VOO.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2025, 10:09:28 AM »
When people say Warren Buffett is holding cash, what does that actually mean? He obviously doesn't have briefcases in his basement. So what does "cash" mean on that scale?

It's probably in money market instruments, which are short-term, very-low-risk securities issued by governments and corporations to meet their day-to-day funding needs. It could be Treasury bills or commercial paper.
And this is one of the things about trying to hunker down in "safe" investments. If you really think things are going to go that badly, where is your money really safe?

Either our federal and financial systems will weather this storm, and eventually recover, or else they may fail catastrophically, at which point even T-bills might not be worth the paper they're (theoretically) printed on. In the former scenario, the usual arguments against market-timing apply; in the latter, nowhere is necessarily "safe", so I don't see a point in up-ending your whole portfolio chasing the illusion of safety in a particular asset class.

The only thing I think might be prudent is diversification, to hedge against unexpected losses in one or more sectors. But that's prudent in "normal" circumstances as well.
Scenario analysis involves thinking of possible macro outcomes as a spectrum, not a binary. For example:

Best 1......20 Worst

1. A deal is made removing most tariffs after just 3 months, a modest tax bill is passed, inflation stays under control, and the Fed starts making rate cuts. 300k government employees lose their jobs but are quickly absorbed by the private sector. Immigrant deportations are no more effective than they were in the past. Core PCE hits 2% at the end of 2025, with annual GDP and wage growth near 3%. Stocks zoom upward as corporate profits and margins grow, amid less competition from startups who sat out the risk.

5. Tariffs on either Canada or Mexico are mitigated, but not eliminated. A tax bill expands the deficit, but bond markets mostly swallow the bill. Rates stay steady all year. 500k government employees lose their jobs. The immigrant population is reduced by deportations, causing some local labor shortages and raising costs for construction, hospitality, restaurants, agriculture, and meat processing.

10. Currently announced tariffs stay permanent and are expanded to include most worldwide markets. A massive tax bill is passed, and bond markets seize up like they did for Liz Truss, as the flow of dollars from exporters into the treasury market is disrupted at the same time as the US deficit picture explodes. 10 year treasury yields hit 7.5%, mortgages hit 10%, and job losses start to mount. Trump reverses the tariffs as his approval rating hits 35% and announces stimulus checks.

20. Tariffs and a sudden slowdown in consumption disrupt global financial flows, causing a bond seizure and the failure of financial institutions that had bet heavily on currencies, derivatives, or swaps. 12% mortgages cause the housing market to collapse, dragging down more financial institutions and causing an acute liquidity crisis. Trump's new Federal Reserve chair, a 23 year old conservative vlogger, cuts the FFR to zero, while his 3rd treasury secretary, a political donor, prints dollars to keep the government afloat. As unemployment passes 20% and inflation passes 10%, Trump's approval rating holds at 50%, because, as in 2024, people believe what their phones say rather than their own eyes and wallets. Democrats remain politically inept, wringing their hands on the internet about the injustice of it all, but not organizing. As the next Great Depression begins, the ruling party uses the chaos to solidify power, and in the 2028 elections, Elon Musk allegedly wins 90% of the vote as the Supreme Court - with 2 new Trump nominees - declines to look into the constitutional legality of Congress's resolution that Musk was born in the U.S. Musk's vice president, a 19 year old Instagram influencer named Dwayne Camacho, becomes the first political leader to fire a gun into the ceiling of the US Senate chambers during a speech, causing a round of laughter from Republican lawmakers as Democrats flee. Meanwhile, yachts full of valuables and guns chug out of Miami harbor every night, bound for Mexico and Caribbean islands.

BrandonP

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2025, 11:07:42 AM »
When people say Warren Buffett is holding cash, what does that actually mean? He obviously doesn't have briefcases in his basement. So what does "cash" mean on that scale?

It's probably in money market instruments, which are short-term, very-low-risk securities issued by governments and corporations to meet their day-to-day funding needs. It could be Treasury bills or commercial paper.
And this is one of the things about trying to hunker down in "safe" investments. If you really think things are going to go that badly, where is your money really safe?

Either our federal and financial systems will weather this storm, and eventually recover, or else they may fail catastrophically, at which point even T-bills might not be worth the paper they're (theoretically) printed on. In the former scenario, the usual arguments against market-timing apply; in the latter, nowhere is necessarily "safe", so I don't see a point in up-ending your whole portfolio chasing the illusion of safety in a particular asset class.

The only thing I think might be prudent is diversification, to hedge against unexpected losses in one or more sectors. But that's prudent in "normal" circumstances as well.
Scenario analysis involves thinking of possible macro outcomes as a spectrum, not a binary. For example:

Best 1......20 Worst

1. A deal is made removing most tariffs after just 3 months, a modest tax bill is passed, inflation stays under control, and the Fed starts making rate cuts. 300k government employees lose their jobs but are quickly absorbed by the private sector. Immigrant deportations are no more effective than they were in the past. Core PCE hits 2% at the end of 2025, with annual GDP and wage growth near 3%. Stocks zoom upward as corporate profits and margins grow, amid less competition from startups who sat out the risk.

5. Tariffs on either Canada or Mexico are mitigated, but not eliminated. A tax bill expands the deficit, but bond markets mostly swallow the bill. Rates stay steady all year. 500k government employees lose their jobs. The immigrant population is reduced by deportations, causing some local labor shortages and raising costs for construction, hospitality, restaurants, agriculture, and meat processing.

10. Currently announced tariffs stay permanent and are expanded to include most worldwide markets. A massive tax bill is passed, and bond markets seize up like they did for Liz Truss, as the flow of dollars from exporters into the treasury market is disrupted at the same time as the US deficit picture explodes. 10 year treasury yields hit 7.5%, mortgages hit 10%, and job losses start to mount. Trump reverses the tariffs as his approval rating hits 35% and announces stimulus checks.

20. Tariffs and a sudden slowdown in consumption disrupt global financial flows, causing a bond seizure and the failure of financial institutions that had bet heavily on currencies, derivatives, or swaps. 12% mortgages cause the housing market to collapse, dragging down more financial institutions and causing an acute liquidity crisis. Trump's new Federal Reserve chair, a 23 year old conservative vlogger, cuts the FFR to zero, while his 3rd treasury secretary, a political donor, prints dollars to keep the government afloat. As unemployment passes 20% and inflation passes 10%, Trump's approval rating holds at 50%, because, as in 2024, people believe what their phones say rather than their own eyes and wallets. Democrats remain politically inept, wringing their hands on the internet about the injustice of it all, but not organizing. As the next Great Depression begins, the ruling party uses the chaos to solidify power, and in the 2028 elections, Elon Musk allegedly wins 90% of the vote as the Supreme Court - with 2 new Trump nominees - declines to look into the constitutional legality of Congress's resolution that Musk was born in the U.S. Musk's vice president, a 19 year old Instagram influencer named Dwayne Camacho, becomes the first political leader to fire a gun into the ceiling of the US Senate chambers during a speech, causing a round of laughter from Republican lawmakers as Democrats flee. Meanwhile, yachts full of valuables and guns chug out of Miami harbor every night, bound for Mexico and Caribbean islands.

Sadly the worst doesn't seem that far fetched....

LightStache

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2025, 11:24:11 AM »
@ChpBstrd 20 is brutally imaginative!!

So what you're saying is I should invest in a yacht based in Miami?

ChpBstrd

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2025, 01:29:21 PM »
@ChpBstrd 20 is brutally imaginative!!
Really? I didn't think it was at all implausible that Democrats would do nothing but complain into the internet, no matter how bad it gets.

Don't buy the yacht. Buy where the yachts are going. One of these $42k quarter-acre lots in the Caymans might not be a bad move!
https://www.cireba.com/cayman-islands-real-estate-listings/minprice_35211/maxprice_387324/filterby_PLH

LightStache

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Re: Timing the market again.....
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2025, 08:37:44 PM »
@ChpBstrd 20 is brutally imaginative!!
Really? I didn't think it was at all implausible that Democrats would do nothing but complain into the internet, no matter how bad it gets.

Don't buy the yacht. Buy where the yachts are going. One of these $42k quarter-acre lots in the Caymans might not be a bad move!
https://www.cireba.com/cayman-islands-real-estate-listings/minprice_35211/maxprice_387324/filterby_PLH

I didn't mean to suggest implausible, just dark and detailed :D

Love the Caymans land idea. I guess OP has a good answer about how to invest that $250K! j/k