Author Topic: Things I don't understand about bitcoin  (Read 950 times)

L.A.S.

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Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« on: March 14, 2017, 05:02:31 AM »
I've tried to read  technical information on bitcoin over and over again.  And I still don't fully grasp it.  Somehow the coins are mined, not minted?  There is an ever growing database called a block chain that records every transaction!?  Somehow, they go in wallets that are completely secure so long as you have a private key, except that there was a huge bitcoin theft from Mt. Gox a few years ago.  Super-technical questions aside, here are some of the issues I can't seem to resolve.

1.) Why is there only one? What's to stop a competitor from creating a competing crypto-currency.  As far as I know, bitcoin has no exclusive right.  And if there can be two, then why not 1000+ competing currencies.  With precious metals there are only a handful of elements.  With fiat currency there are a limited number of sovereigns, and a limited number worth owning.

2.) Acceptance is purely optional.  No one can be forced to accept bitcoin.  The true value of a fiat currency is that a sovereign can force a private individual within it's jurisdiction to settle a debt in it, and that the sovereign will accept it to settle a public tax debt.  Hence "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" written on U.S. paper currency.  The effect is that the fiat currency can be used to stop the legal process that would otherwise result in the confiscation of real assets.  But, no one can force anyone to supply a bitcoin to stop such a legal proceeding (with the exception of contracting ahead of time, but not all debts are contract debts).

3.) It's secure... But for how long?  Taking into account the ever increasing computing power, at what point will it be simple to brute-force into bitcoin wallets.  The blockchain is a public ledger so I assume someone could download the whole thing and set a stable of computers against determining the private key for high value bitcoin wallets until they are cracked.  With the exponential advance of computing power, i.e. Moore's Law, how far away are we really?

4.)It's anonymous...But for how long?  There is an ever increasing collection of specific and personal info on the web.  I assume if a bitcoin wallet is never used no one would know who owns it.  But, once someone figures out who owns enough bitcoin wallets they cross check it against the block-chain, and could reconstruct every transaction that a person has ever made.  At least with physical cash, it can be negotiated solely in meat-space, with little durable record of the transaction.

Does anyone have any answers to these questions?  Do you have any philosophical or technical questions of bitcoin yourself?



Doubleh

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2017, 05:53:46 AM »
I can't add anything bitcoin specific, but I do have a fun fact about legal tender as regards point 2.

Legal tender as a concept exists in England and Wales, much as it does in the USA, but not in Scotland. Bank of England notes can be used in Scotland, as can the ones issued by a number of Scottish banks. But none of them have the status of legal tender, acceptance is always optional. In spite of this it seems to work just fine, which suggests that the tender argument is probably a bit of a red herring. In effect any fiat currency has value only because - and only to the extent that - anyone has faith in it and so will accept it. The legal tender aspect may underpin this, but is not necessary.

Of course it is equally a mistake to single fiat currencies out here, gold equally only has value insomuch as anyone will accept it; it does have some intrinsic value for industrial uses, but anything above this relatively low value is purely down to convention

lekhaka

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 05:54:29 AM »
I can only answer some of these so here goes:

Quote
Somehow the coins are mined, not minted?

This is because the system is designed so that new currency is created only by performing the needed updates to the ledger. We want the ledger to be updated reliably, and some people will do this because they get rewarded. This process is called mining.

Quote
Somehow, they go in wallets that are completely secure so long as you have a private key, except that there was a huge bitcoin theft from Mt. Gox a few years ago

As far as I know only interfaces between bitcoin and fiat have been compromised, not bitcoin itself. Mt. Gox was an exchange or something, and I assume the stolen funds were held by the site in escrow, and not actually in people's bitcoin wallets, hence why they were able to be stolen. It's commonly known best practice to never leave your savings/investment funds in an exchange.

Quote
1.) Why is there only one?

You're quite right, it's not the only one. There are a huge number of "alt-coins". Here's one list: http://coincap.io/ Bitcoin is the largest simply due to the schelling effect of being the first.

Quote
3.) It's secure... But for how long?
Latest word is that bitcoin is anticipated to remain safe even with the new quantum algorithms. This is a bit too technical for me so maybe someone else can answer this. Personally I think it's on an order of magnitude large enough that you'd notice human civilisation being drastically different before you need to worry about moving your bitcoins.

Quote
4.)It's anonymous...But for how long?
It's not inherently anonymous. You can maximize anonymity by following the best practice of never reusing addresses. Remember, in bitcoin a wallet is not a single address. It's an abstract concept referring to the fact that you hold control over some coins. Whenever you spend a coin you either spend all of it, or only part of it splitting the coin and creating a new "change" coin which you retain control. From the outside all you see are bunch of coins moving around and splitting, not even knowing if any of the coins you see belong to the same person.

That said, some of those alternate versions of bitcoin have been designed with anonymity specifically in mind, and deal with it in a much more user friendly way, actually allowing you to reuse addresses safely.

steveo

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 06:27:54 AM »
Here is my go at this:-

Question 1:- There are heaps of crypto-currencies.
Question 2:- Yep. No one has to accept Bitcoin.
Question 3:- I don't think that you have the security part right. Your wallet can be off-line. If computing power increases and wallets can be hacked into I think the power of crptography will also increase and therefore wallets will be secure. Wallets can also be held off-line or on paper.

If you are talking about hacking the blockchain it would require a whole bunch of computing power being held by one monopoly. They could then fork the chain and print money. This to me is pretty unlikely.

Question 4:- It's not really anonymous. All the transactions are available within the blockchain. It wouldn't be that hard to backtrack seeing that I bought some bitcoin (or part) and I used that to buy something else.

I reckon bitcoin or maybe better put cryptocurrencies are great. To me they have the potential to revolutionise the way banking and money transfers are completed. To me it gives me a lot more control. I don't believe in speculating in cryptocurrencies but I can't wait until I can purchase for instance Vanguard funds or maybe even something better via bitcoin or similar. Vanguard could for instance put the index and record everything on the blockchain and you could buy a piece of that.

I heard Bill Gates talking about how much easier it makes money transfers to poor communities. If you have Internet access you can do this dirt cheap and for small amounts.

daverobev

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2017, 08:51:24 AM »
Legal tender as a concept exists in England and Wales, much as it does in the USA, but not in Scotland. Bank of England notes can be used in Scotland, as can the ones issued by a number of Scottish banks. But none of them have the status of legal tender, acceptance is always optional. In spite of this it seems to work just fine, which suggests that the tender argument is probably a bit of a red herring. In effect any fiat currency has value only because - and only to the extent that - anyone has faith in it and so will accept it. The legal tender aspect may underpin this, but is not necessary.

Can you expand on the status in Scotland - you say 'acceptance is optional', but you have to pay your taxes in Pounds Sterling, which is the fiat currency of the UK. Are you just talking specifically about the banknotes being printed by a number of banks in Scotland vs only the BofE in the rest of the UK?

I mean... shops in England have been known to refuse Scottish bank notes, and more likely the further from Scotland you get. I guess those non-BofE notes are not legal tender in the rest of the UK.
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L.A.S.

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2017, 06:21:06 AM »
I can only answer some of these so here goes:

Quote
Somehow the coins are mined, not minted?

This is because the system is designed so that new currency is created only by performing the needed updates to the ledger. We want the ledger to be updated reliably, and some people will do this because they get rewarded. This process is called mining.

Quote
Somehow, they go in wallets that are completely secure so long as you have a private key, except that there was a huge bitcoin theft from Mt. Gox a few years ago

As far as I know only interfaces between bitcoin and fiat have been compromised, not bitcoin itself. Mt. Gox was an exchange or something, and I assume the stolen funds were held by the site in escrow, and not actually in people's bitcoin wallets, hence why they were able to be stolen. It's commonly known best practice to never leave your savings/investment funds in an exchange.

Quote
1.) Why is there only one?

You're quite right, it's not the only one. There are a huge number of "alt-coins". Here's one list: http://coincap.io/ Bitcoin is the largest simply due to the schelling effect of being the first.

Quote
3.) It's secure... But for how long?
Latest word is that bitcoin is anticipated to remain safe even with the new quantum algorithms. This is a bit too technical for me so maybe someone else can answer this. Personally I think it's on an order of magnitude large enough that you'd notice human civilisation being drastically different before you need to worry about moving your bitcoins.

Quote
4.)It's anonymous...But for how long?
It's not inherently anonymous. You can maximize anonymity by following the best practice of never reusing addresses. Remember, in bitcoin a wallet is not a single address. It's an abstract concept referring to the fact that you hold control over some coins. Whenever you spend a coin you either spend all of it, or only part of it splitting the coin and creating a new "change" coin which you retain control. From the outside all you see are bunch of coins moving around and splitting, not even knowing if any of the coins you see belong to the same person.

That said, some of those alternate versions of bitcoin have been designed with anonymity specifically in mind, and deal with it in a much more user friendly way, actually allowing you to reuse addresses safely.

Thank you for the answers in your reply.  They are clarifying. 

As to 1.) I guess I should have googled this. The link you supplied is interesting.   

L.A.S.

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2017, 06:56:49 AM »
Legal tender as a concept exists in England and Wales, much as it does in the USA, but not in Scotland. Bank of England notes can be used in Scotland, as can the ones issued by a number of Scottish banks. But none of them have the status of legal tender, acceptance is always optional. In spite of this it seems to work just fine, which suggests that the tender argument is probably a bit of a red herring. In effect any fiat currency has value only because - and only to the extent that - anyone has faith in it and so will accept it. The legal tender aspect may underpin this, but is not necessary.

Can you expand on the status in Scotland - you say 'acceptance is optional', but you have to pay your taxes in Pounds Sterling, which is the fiat currency of the UK. Are you just talking specifically about the banknotes being printed by a number of banks in Scotland vs only the BofE in the rest of the UK?

I mean... shops in England have been known to refuse Scottish bank notes, and more likely the further from Scotland you get. I guess those non-BofE notes are not legal tender in the rest of the UK.

I did not know this about Scottish bank notes.  Perhaps some of the problems with their acceptance outside of Scotland is because they are not legal tender, and this diminishes their perceived value vis-a-vis BoE notes?

I checked at the BoE website: http://edu.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-tender/

It looks like in Scotland Royal Mint coins are legal tender.  I assume that this means that the fiat currency of England, the British Pound Sterling, is the fiat currency of Scotland as well? If it is not the fiat currency, then what currency are taxes collected in?  When a creditor gets a judgment in court, and absent a preexisting agreement, what currency will the court compel payment in? 

Also, I think a fiat currency can still have true value outside of its home jurisdiction, so long as there are few barriers to its flow back to that jurisdiction where it can be used to settle debts.  For example, just about anyone with dollars can trade with American companies and individuals.  The foreigner may not be able to legally settle debts in their home country with dollars, but because Americans must have dollars to settle their debts the foreigner can obtain valuable goods and services for those dollars. Perhaps the foreigner could import those goods back home and exchange them for fiat currency of their home jurisdiction.   So, I think, outside the U.S. the dollar has value based on what it can buy from people who have debts that can be settled in dollars. 

Getting back to bitcoin, I think its unlikely that a government would demand or compel payment or acceptance in bitcoins anytime soon.  There seems to be governing value in being able to control the money supply of a fiat currency.  But, I can imagine a group of merchants deciding that they are going to demand bitcoins as payment.  I guess in this instance, the value of a bitcoin would be based on the value of goods or services which it could buy from those who demand it.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2017, 02:51:38 PM »
Can I add a question?

5) Is there any reason to purchase a crypto-currency unless you are (a) money laundering, or (b) betting on appreciation of the currency?

steveo

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2017, 03:58:20 PM »
Can I add a question?

5) Is there any reason to purchase a crypto-currency unless you are (a) money laundering, or (b) betting on appreciation of the currency?

Buying drugs on Alphabay or whatever. You can also use it for other purchases but you could use normal currencies for that. Money transfers are a great idea as well. If you want to pay me say $20 via an international transfer and it'd probably cost $20 to transfer the money. Do that via bitcoin and it's basically free.

I honestly think crypto currencies are great. Imagine your cash being held via yourself rather than a bank and you can transfer all your money without any bank or government involvement. It's completely decentralised with no institutionalised BS.

It may take a while for it to come to fruition but imagine a world wide currency with minimal/basically no barriers to transfer between people and everyone holding it makes it safe. It's also bigger than that because for instance you can record all transactions on it. So I said earlier have an index fund that is compiled and traded on a blockchain. It could take away the need for Vanguard for instance and provide cheaper fees. I'm only speculating here but I really think it's a great idea.

It's like any peer to peer idea as an example torrenting. Everyone contributing to the system makes it work really really well.

Mr Mark

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2017, 07:16:57 AM »
Also great for buying tinfoil so the Fed's don't know you're lining your mobile home with it. Use the off cuts for the hat for when you go outside to check the booby traps. /s
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MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2017, 09:22:38 AM »
Unlike stocks and bonds, bitcoin doesn't pay you anything.  Many people are probably viewing it as a speculative, greedy investment.

Mt Gox, the infamous bitcoin exchange, got it's assets hacked.  I believe it was something like an incorrect request that could be repeated to draw out bitcoin.  The rules setup by the Mt Gox website were flawed, and lead to the loss of it's assets.

One defense against that is keep your assets in your own digital wallet.  Another is to trust that recent exchanges keep most of their assets offline, in "cold storage", where hacking can't get immediate access to them.

I lost interest in bitcoin because there wasn't much (legit) to do with bitcoin.  Maybe some restaurants accept it, and some legit websites.

Doubleh

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2017, 01:50:00 AM »
LAS, for clarification the fiat currency is the same throughout the UK (United Kingdom which includes Scotland Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland) and is the British Pound Sterling ISO code GBP.

Pound notes printed by the Bank of England have legal tender status in England and Wales, but not in Scotland or Northern Ireland. There are seven private banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland which print their own pound notes, and these form the bulk of cash used in these two places. None of these notes have the status of legal tender anywhere, but they are commonly used in their respective territories.

In each case the notes have value because of convention; they are commonly accepted because those who accept them believe that others will accept them, regardless of legal tender status. My point is that the importance of legal tender status sounds compelling on the face of it, but is not necessary for a currency to be valuable.

If I take a trip from London to Edinburgh and when I arrive try to buy a cup of coffee with my Bank of England notes they will almost certainly be accepted, because they are pretty common even though they don't have tender status in Scotland. If I bring Royal Bank of Scotland notes home to London with me I may have difficulty spending them, as they are uncommon in England and people will be concerned about how they will spend them, and lack of familiarity means they are less able to spot a forgery. But I should be able to find somewhere I can use them, maybe a larger store. They are still GBP notes after all and are valid currency. Worst case I can deposit them at the bank, but I would always expect to get the full face value of the note.

marty998

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2017, 02:05:46 AM »
Bitcoin isn't going to replace dollars and cents. The blockchain technology will revolutionise the financial services industry.

It may take a while for it to come to fruition but imagine a world wide currency with minimal/basically no barriers to transfer between people and everyone holding it makes it safe. It's also bigger than that because for instance you can record all transactions on it. So I said earlier have an index fund that is compiled and traded on a blockchain. It could take away the need for Vanguard for instance and provide cheaper fees. I'm only speculating here but I really think it's a great idea.

It's like any peer to peer idea as an example torrenting. Everyone contributing to the system makes it work really really well.

The first steps towards this are already being taken. Share registries and clearing houses are in the firing line. Your usual settlement delays between purchase and delivery of share/unit ownership will be eliminated and completed in real time.


lekhaka

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2017, 02:08:17 AM »
5) Is there any reason to purchase a crypto-currency unless you are (a) money laundering, or (b) betting on appreciation of the currency?

Like someone mentioned, there's no risk of assets being seized or frozen. I kid not, after the US election, some pretty rational people I know decided to look into contingency plans just in the unlikely case that the US destabilizes or turns dictatorial. Again, rational people, as in they did not expect a high chance of this happening, but was curious anyway.

After not finding any reliable way to store assets in traditional fiat that would be perfectly safe from the long arms of a hypothetical evil government, they realized the value of bitcoin....

Now into real-world examples: China. Sure, some of the money is probably of dubious origin, but if you were a legitimate millionaire in China and feared that the regime had an excuse to confiscate your funds, you can see the value of bitcoin. I believe China has the largest bitcoin market now.

MoonLiteNite

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2017, 05:19:41 AM »
1.) Why is there only one? What's to stop a competitor from creating a competing crypto-currency.  As far as I know, bitcoin has no exclusive right.  And if there can be two, then why not 1000+ competing currencies.  With precious metals there are only a handful of elements.  With fiat currency there are a limited number of sovereigns, and a limited number worth owning.
There are several, really bitcoin is the big guy, then 2 other decent sized ones and a handful of other little ones. Bitcoin is the big one now, but there is a chance they could fall, like myspace and another will become the big dog.

2.) Acceptance is purely optional.  No one can be forced to accept bitcoin.  The true value of a fiat currency is that a sovereign can force a private individual within it's jurisdiction to settle a debt in it, and that the sovereign will accept it to settle a public tax debt.  Hence "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" written on U.S. paper currency.  The effect is that the fiat currency can be used to stop the legal process that would otherwise result in the confiscation of real assets.  But, no one can force anyone to supply a bitcoin to stop such a legal proceeding (with the exception of contracting ahead of time, but not all debts are contract debts).
Kinda the point of bitcoin, it is freedom driven, nobody HAS to do anything. It is all based on volunteers :)

3.) It's secure... But for how long?  Taking into account the ever increasing computing power, at what point will it be simple to brute-force into bitcoin wallets.  The blockchain is a public ledger so I assume someone could download the whole thing and set a stable of computers against determining the private key for high value bitcoin wallets until they are cracked.  With the exponential advance of computing power, i.e. Moore's Law, how far away are we really?
It will be secure for a LONG LONG LONG time several billions of years with current tech. Now the "wallets" they are only as secure as the key to hide them. Also the vaults/websites, only as secure as those sites.

4.)It's anonymous...But for how long?  There is an ever increasing collection of specific and personal info on the web.  I assume if a bitcoin wallet is never used no one would know who owns it.  But, once someone figures out who owns enough bitcoin wallets they cross check it against the block-chain, and could reconstruct every transaction that a person has ever made.  At least with physical cash, it can be negotiated solely in meat-space, with little durable record of the transaction.
Same as above, for a LONG LONG LONG LONG time. Unless you have another breach in security. A program watching you log into a bit coint wallet, or a hidden camera in your room. Or a virus on your computer, etc....

MoonLiteNite

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2017, 05:21:37 AM »
Can I add a question?

5) Is there any reason to purchase a crypto-currency unless you are (a) money laundering, or (b) betting on appreciation of the currency?

So i can play "illegal" poker. Last time i played with USD the government stole my money for 3 freakn years!
Also just keeps the government off of it. Nobody can take it, nobody can steal it. It is mine and mine to give away, or trade away.

gp_

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2017, 09:09:28 AM »
5) Is there any reason to purchase a crypto-currency unless you are (a) money laundering, or (b) betting on appreciation of the currency?

most people look at cryptocurrencies in the wrong way. yes, they are a payment utility, but each one exists for a different reason.

example:
ethereum - smart contracts for business. many fortune 500 companies are building enterprise software versions on the ethereum blockchain.
ripple - secure, instant, and nearly free global financial transactions of any size with no chargebacks (1/3 of the banks in japan are using/experimenting with ripple)
golem - renting out unused computing power (from everyone in the network) to create a decentrailized, open sourced "super computer".

each of these companies have their own token, or "coin" as a reward in regards to the service they provide.

There are several, really bitcoin is the big guy, then 2 other decent sized ones and a handful of other little ones. Bitcoin is the big one now, but there is a chance they could fall, like myspace and another will become the big dog.

have you seen what ethereum has been doing? it's value has gone up over 150% in 1 week (this past week). dash too.


gp_

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2017, 09:26:02 AM »
I've tried to read  technical information on bitcoin over and over again.  And I still don't fully grasp it.  Somehow the coins are mined, not minted?  There is an ever growing database called a block chain that records every transaction!?  Somehow, they go in wallets that are completely secure so long as you have a private key, except that there was a huge bitcoin theft from Mt. Gox a few years ago.  Super-technical questions aside, here are some of the issues I can't seem to resolve.

1.) Why is there only one? What's to stop a competitor from creating a competing crypto-currency.  As far as I know, bitcoin has no exclusive right.  And if there can be two, then why not 1000+ competing currencies.  With precious metals there are only a handful of elements.  With fiat currency there are a limited number of sovereigns, and a limited number worth owning.

2.) Acceptance is purely optional.  No one can be forced to accept bitcoin.  The true value of a fiat currency is that a sovereign can force a private individual within it's jurisdiction to settle a debt in it, and that the sovereign will accept it to settle a public tax debt.  Hence "Legal tender for all debts, public and private" written on U.S. paper currency.  The effect is that the fiat currency can be used to stop the legal process that would otherwise result in the confiscation of real assets.  But, no one can force anyone to supply a bitcoin to stop such a legal proceeding (with the exception of contracting ahead of time, but not all debts are contract debts).

3.) It's secure... But for how long?  Taking into account the ever increasing computing power, at what point will it be simple to brute-force into bitcoin wallets.  The blockchain is a public ledger so I assume someone could download the whole thing and set a stable of computers against determining the private key for high value bitcoin wallets until they are cracked.  With the exponential advance of computing power, i.e. Moore's Law, how far away are we really?

4.)It's anonymous...But for how long?  There is an ever increasing collection of specific and personal info on the web.  I assume if a bitcoin wallet is never used no one would know who owns it.  But, once someone figures out who owns enough bitcoin wallets they cross check it against the block-chain, and could reconstruct every transaction that a person has ever made.  At least with physical cash, it can be negotiated solely in meat-space, with little durable record of the transaction.

Does anyone have any answers to these questions?  Do you have any philosophical or technical questions of bitcoin yourself?


1 - yes, there are many. some with more purpose than others. each one exists for a specific purpose (one may be for executing a "smart contract", another "rents" out unused computing power from everyone within the network to create a decentralized, "super computer"), etc. each cryptocurrency is a token / coin given as a "reward" for the given task which is completed.

2 - i somewhat understand your question, however i personally don't approach all cryptocurrencies as currency. again, many of the cryptocurrencies exist as a "reward" for a service they're providing (which is a payment), however, they (the business), aren't creating a new currency. it's their "reward" for completing the transaction / task. does that make sense?

3 - it's extremely secure. you have private keys, 2-step authentication, and best of all, you can generate a new wallet / wallet address at the press of a button. yes, everything is hashed on the blockchain, but you can constantly generate new wallets and addresses should you ever feel they're compromised.

4 - to a degree, yes, you can retrace the steps a person has taken, but it will still be much more difficult vs. the "traditional" way of doing "business". regarding your first question about the multitude of "copycats", there's a cryptocurrency called "dash" which many consider to be more private than bitcoin, which to some, is a huge selling point. dash recently expected a HUGE appreciation in value ($23 to $100 in 1 month).

cryptocurrencies are the future, and are here to stay. some will flourish, others will surely die out.

lekhaka

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Re: Things I don't understand about bitcoin
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2017, 11:32:08 PM »
About the different chains for different purposes...that might be true, but cryptocurrencies are so easily interchangeable for next to no fee. If you're using it as a method of payment, I think practically it doesn't matter, since they are all highly liquid and you'll be able to pay with any crypto after converting it. The part where it matters is if you're speculating on the value of the different blockchains, i.e. if you plan to hold for a long time.