Author Topic: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed  (Read 4645 times)

Cano101

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$1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« on: March 03, 2021, 12:44:25 PM »
Hello,

Through the good fortune of a hot real estate market, my partner and I have just come into a massive windfall of approx $1m. Up until now, we have been used self directed broad based Vanguard ETF's and it has worked quite well.

I have reached out to several local financial advisors who charge between 0.85% and 1.15% in fees which includes investment management, tax planning, retirement planning etc. From what I understand, this fee is tax deductible, so at the end of the day I'm looking at approx 0.5-0.6% for these services compared to the 0.22% MER I currently pay for Vanguard ETF's. I am Canadian so the ultra low 0.03% type index funds aren't available to me.

The group I am looking at has a public blog that I have followed for 5+ years and is a group I trust/have learned from immensely without actually being a client.

I consider myself a reasonably informed investor - I monitor finance and investment blogs and these forums, but I'm not particularly advanced. Am I overthinking going with an investor for what seems like a marginal % difference (0.3-0.4% vs self directed)? I know the mantra is to reduce those costs, but is it worth it given the other services added and the peace of mind going forward? This seems like a once in a lifetime amount of money, and we have a long timeframe (we are 33 and 31), so I want to make sure I am making sound decisions.

Thanks in advance and please let me know if you need any additional information!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 12:52:59 PM by Cano101 »

Rob_bob

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2021, 12:59:03 PM »
At your age I would do it myself with a few index funds.  Pay an hourly fee for tax planning or DIY and retirement planning is easy as you are in accumulation phase, i.e. invest in broad market index funds.

Keep reading, listening and asking questions to learn as you go.

reeshau

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2021, 01:02:39 PM »
At your age I would do it myself with a few index funds.  Pay an hourly fee for tax planning or DIY and retirement planning is easy as you are in accumulation phase, i.e. invest in broad market index funds.

Keep reading, listening and asking questions to learn as you go.

+1

There is nothing different at this level of wealth than before.  If you want advice or service, pay for that explicitly, and you will understand its value.  You will also be able to judge it in the future, if you want to continue or use the service again.  If it is tied up into one fee for a bundle, you will have a gnawing feeling of dissatisfaction, but no clear action available to deal with it.

You can manage this yourself.  The simple portfolio still works fine.  Spend $500-$1,000 for an expert second opinion, taking into account insurance, family goals, etc.  Then move with confidence until your next leg up.

To add the stick: you asked if .3 to .4% is worth it.  On $1M, that's $3,000 - $4,000.  Per year.  If that much really doesn't mean anything to you, donate it.  Or send it to me.  I will figure out a better way to use it than your financial advisor.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 01:08:25 PM by reeshau »

bwall

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2021, 01:12:45 PM »
At your age I would do it myself with a few index funds.  Pay an hourly fee for tax planning or DIY and retirement planning is easy as you are in accumulation phase, i.e. invest in broad market index funds.

Keep reading, listening and asking questions to learn as you go.

+1

There is nothing different at this level of wealth than before.  If you want advice or service, pay for that explicitly, and you will understand its value.  You will also be able to judge it in the future, if you want to continue or use the service again.  If it is tied up into one fee for a bundle, you will have a gnawing feeling of dissatisfaction, but no clear action available to deal with it.

You can manage this yourself.  The simple portfolio still works fine.  Spend $500-$1,000 for an expert second opinion, taking into account insurance, family goals, etc.  Then move with confidence until your next leg up.

To add the stick: you asked if .3 to .4% is worth it.  On $1M, that's $3,000 - $4,000.  Per year.  If that much really doesn't mean anything to you, donate it.  Or send it to me.  I will figure out a better way to use it than your financial advisor.

+1.

There is no information available to you from a financial advisor with $1m that is not also available to you at $250k or $100k. You just pay more for the same information.

No need to buy the same product year after year.

Read up, study up, become a more knowledgable person and you will reap dividends far greater than you can ever imagine.

celerystalks

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2021, 01:20:16 PM »
Avoid financial advisors. They provide nothing in return for their fees except for headaches and lower returns. 

Get tax advice from an accountant.
Get retirement advice from bogleheads, jlcollins, and MMM.

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2021, 01:31:29 PM »
Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I'm wondering if someone can talk me through this mental hangup I'm having:

When I plug in the numbers at https://www.begintoinvest.com/expense-ratio-calculator/, I get:

$1m returning 6% at 0.55% fee vs 0.22% fee over a 20 year period results in approx $230 000 difference on a $3m+ portfolio. Aren't we starting to split hairs a bit at this point? If on my own I return 6% using what I learn online and he returns 6.2%, we're at breakeven. If I make a rebalancing error or follow poor advice, it's a far bigger mistake than $230 000.

On one hand, $10k/year average seems ridiculous even with all of the "value added" tax planning type services, but on the other, is an extra ~0.3% really that outrageous to manage everything?

yachi

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2021, 01:33:11 PM »
You can can also use VCN, it's an All-Canada Vanguard Index, you can get it with a MER of 0.06%. It doesn't have exposure to US securities, so I see why you're going with something different.
I think you're doing the comparison wrong, because these financial advisors don't run their own funds, so they're likely quoting only their own fees.  I think you should be comparing 0.22% if you invest it yourself vs 0.5%+0.22% to 0.6%+0.22% if your Financial Advisor invests it for you (assuming he/she chooses all Vanguard ETF's with 0.22% MER).  But typically financial advisors will have a myriad of products they'll recommend, that undoubtedly will come with higher underlying costs.

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2021, 01:42:29 PM »
I will certainly clarify this, but based on my understanding, the 0.85% is "all in". They don't sell financial products, and for the most part they are investing in broad based ETF's themselves. They characterize themselves as "aggressively conservative" - targetting 6-7% returns. In other words, they would be doing more or less what I'm doing, hopefully with better precision/diversification/tax planning. If they can do that 0.2% better than me, does it not start to become a very close call?

bacchi

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2021, 01:44:38 PM »
I will certainly clarify this, but based on my understanding, the 0.85% is "all in". They don't sell financial products, and for the most part they are investing in broad based ETF's themselves. They characterize themselves as "aggressively conservative" - targetting 6-7% returns. In other words, they would be doing more or less what I'm doing, hopefully with better precision/diversification/tax planning. If they can do that 0.2% better than me, does it not start to become a very close call?

Why would they consistently do 0.2% better than you if you're using the same funds?

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2021, 01:50:50 PM »
I will certainly clarify this, but based on my understanding, the 0.85% is "all in". They don't sell financial products, and for the most part they are investing in broad based ETF's themselves. They characterize themselves as "aggressively conservative" - targetting 6-7% returns. In other words, they would be doing more or less what I'm doing, hopefully with better precision/diversification/tax planning. If they can do that 0.2% better than me, does it not start to become a very close call?

Why would they consistently do 0.2% better than you if you're using the same funds?

Maybe I was speaking a bit loosely when I said the same funds. Obviously they are not using the "3 fund portfolio" from Canadian Couch Potato. What I meant was that this isn't a firm that's going to short the market or overweight me in Tesla for example. I would expect their allocations to be more precise than my current 40/30/30 and rebalancing more frequent than my current. I could be wrong of course, but that's why I'm asking for a second opinion from the smart folks here!

yachi

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2021, 02:16:06 PM »
Are you really subject to a 47.8% to 41.1% tax rate?

reeshau

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2021, 02:34:19 PM »
$1m returning 6% at 0.55% fee vs 0.22% fee over a 20 year period results in approx $230 000 difference on a $3m+ portfolio. Aren't we starting to split hairs a bit at this point?

Again--It's just a Lambo.   Or a ticket on Virgin Galactic.  Or a nice cabin in the woods, on a lake.  I'm patient--You can send it to me in 20 years.

Oh, by the way:  you are in your 30's.   You will live a lot longer than 20 years.  Try that difference for 50 or 60 years.  I also think you are shortchanging the difference in fees.  I wouldn't be surprised if you are still at the top range of their fees at $1M.  The rate would reduce as the balance increases.  (Of course, the actual fee charged still goes up)  so the difference is really (1.15% - .22%) = .93%

It is understandable to be intimidated, as your wealth has increased suddenly.  Just know that the game has not changed in the meantime.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 02:55:22 PM by reeshau »

ysette9

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2021, 02:51:43 PM »
In the US we have flat fee-only fiduciary financial advisors who will charge you a few thousand dollars to put together a financial plan. If you want more advising you pay on an hourly basis. I know of the XY Planning Network and Garrett Planning network which offer advisors under this model. Certainly you can find something similar in Canada.

We have over $3M invested and I do it myself. I have had check ins with a few financial advisors along the way to make sure we are on a reasonable path. I have also posted case studies here and on the Bogleheads forum. If you are interested and learning and doing it yourself it is very doable.

If you aren’t, that is ok as well, but for heaven’s sake, get a fiduciary you pay at an hourly rate, not someone who wants to take a percentage of assets under management.

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2021, 03:15:50 PM »
$1m returning 6% at 0.55% fee vs 0.22% fee over a 20 year period results in approx $230 000 difference on a $3m+ portfolio. Aren't we starting to split hairs a bit at this point?

Again--It's just a Lambo.   Or a ticket on Virgin Galactic.  Or a nice cabin in the woods, on a lake.  I'm patient--You can send it to me in 20 years.

Oh, by the way:  you are in your 30's.   You will live a lot longer than 20 years. Try that difference for 50 or 60 years.  I also think you are shortchanging the difference in fees.  I wouldn't be surprised if you are still at the top range of their fees at $1M.  The rate would reduce as the balance increases.  (Of course, the actual fee charged still goes up)  so the difference is really (1.15% - .22%) = .93%

It is understandable to be intimidated, as your wealth has increased suddenly.  Just know that the game has not changed in the meantime.

Thanks for the bolded part in particular. In my head, I used the timeframe for when I expect to retire, but as you point out, I may have 50+ years, in which case I end up paying a STAGGERING $2.4 million.

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2021, 03:18:52 PM »
In the US we have flat fee-only fiduciary financial advisors who will charge you a few thousand dollars to put together a financial plan. If you want more advising you pay on an hourly basis. I know of the XY Planning Network and Garrett Planning network which offer advisors under this model. Certainly you can find something similar in Canada.

We have over $3M invested and I do it myself. I have had check ins with a few financial advisors along the way to make sure we are on a reasonable path. I have also posted case studies here and on the Bogleheads forum. If you are interested and learning and doing it yourself it is very doable.

If you aren’t, that is ok as well, but for heaven’s sake, get a fiduciary you pay at an hourly rate, not someone who wants to take a percentage of assets under management.

Thank you - it is reassuring to hear from someone who has done it. Something in my head just clicks when I hit a million thinking "ok - this is big money now, don't screw it up and you are set for life". In reality, the same logic applies to any amount of money.

I definitely have the time/interest to figure it out - I probably spend ~10 hours a week on forums/articles/books about personal finance/saving/investing, so maybe what makes the most sense is to dedicate a larger than normal chunk of that about ETF allocation and then pay the $1k or whatever to have an hourly fee-based advisor give it the once over?

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2021, 03:20:15 PM »
Are you really subject to a 47.8% to 41.1% tax rate?

Yes, unfortunately the tax bracket I'm in is in the mid 40% range. It's of course a very nice problem to have, and part of the reason why we have excellent schools, roads, health care, etc, but it sure does make a $100k+ salary seem like nothing!

FLBiker

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2021, 06:00:26 PM »
I agree with the advice you've gotten so far.  We recently hit a little over a $1m in our investments (only slightly due to a windfall -- the last $100K came from selling our house) and we didn't change anything.  I consider myself fairly knowledgeable with investment stuff, but the more I've learned the simpler it has gotten.  I used to pick stocks, have actively managed funds, and I don't do any of that anymore.  That said, I totally appreciate that a big change can spur you to get a second opinion -- I'd just echo the recommendation that you pay for this second opinion on an hourly basis, rather than as an ongoing %.

We recently moved from the US to Canada.  We have a decent amount of money, and a variety of accounts (403b, 457b, roth IRAs, etc.) so I wanted to talk to some folks about things we needed to do beforehand, things we needed to be careful of, etc.  I did my own research beforehand (largely here, bogleheads and finiki).  Once I thought I understood things, I reached out to a pay by the hour financial planner for a (free) initial consultation and she basically told me I was correct in what I understood and didn't need her services.  I also reached out to a tax accountant and he also confirmed my understanding.  We are going to use him, though, to do our first tax returns (because I'm currently still paid by a US company so it's a little weird).  I've also asked him a couple of other tax related questions, which he bills me for at his hourly rate.  It has been really great for my peace of mind.

I have no affiliation with them, and I haven't used their services, but I really liked the person I spoke to from Spring Financial Plans: (https://springplans.ca/).  And they are also part of a network of Canadian advice-only advisors, which is where I would start my search for a financial advisor, if I were looking for one: https://www.adviceonlyplanners.ca/find-a-planner

Andy R

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2021, 06:56:36 PM »
There is no rule that you need to pay for ongoing services. You have the option to go with an advisor that gives you a plan based on your circumstances, which for the investment part uses passive indexing, which you then execute on your own.

The real use of an advisor is in the non-investment stuff, such as:
- defining financial goals
- budgeting & cash flow management
- debt management
- projections based on whether you can meet your goals using your available positive cash flow available
- what types of insurance may be useful, and if so what type and how much
- tax efficiency
- etc..

cchrissyy

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2021, 08:02:55 PM »
Congrats! bottom line is no this portfolio size does not mean you should start paying for AUM services.

In other words, they would be doing more or less what I'm doing, hopefully with better precision/diversification/tax planning. If they can do that 0.2% better than me, does it not start to become a very close call?

The assumption here is that they deliver better returns than you would otherwise earn.  That's unfounded. They might be the same returns. They are likely to be even worse!

In the same way these advisors have to pitch you on their services to get you to sign up, which is where they invite you to assume equal or better returns, once you are enrolled these folks have an incentive to make your portfolio needlessly complex, because it makes it look like they are "doing something" and like investing is complicated and hard to handle yourself. that way you feel positive about them and unwilling to leave. To that end, they have an incentive to put you into investments you would not have chosen.  Am I making sense here? We see this a lot in portfolio reviews where a person would have been well-served by adopting a simple portfolio and leaving it alone, but instead, their adviser has them in a dozen or more funds which alltogether mimic the broader market, except with higher fees and inefficiencies.

Heckler

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2021, 10:15:59 PM »

I definitely have the time/interest to figure it out - I probably spend ~10 hours a week on forums/articles/books about personal finance/saving/investing, so maybe what makes the most sense is to dedicate a larger than normal chunk of that about ETF allocation and then pay the $1k or whatever to have an hourly fee-based advisor give it the once over?

1M or 1K balance, the concepts are the same.  Except for taxes, as your RSP and TFSA likely won't cover that high an amount.

It sounds like you've already educated yourself and are on the right track.  Now it's just a nerve wracking cash injection that's causing you to doubt.  Don't. 

I do have to correct one fallacy - you do have access to ultra low cost ETFs on the US market, such as VTI (aka VTSAX), VXUS, VEA, IEMG.  You just need to convert funds to USD to buy them in a self directed account, and the cost effective way to do it is Norbert's gambit.   I hold only my 25% US index portion in VTI, all my other holdings are in $CAD ETFs from Ishares Canada (Blackrock) or Vanguard.

Figure out your asset allocation according to your risk tolerance and stick with it, no matter the total amount. 
Figure out your asset location for ideal taxes (Canadian Qualified equities in taxable, bonds in RSP, US in RSP or taxable and claim the tax credits, international in TFSA)

these are my go-to's:
https://www.taxtips.ca/
https://canadiancouchpotato.com/2021/01/22/couch-potato-portfolio-returns-for-2020/
https://www.finiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

https://canadiancouchpotato.com/2010/03/05/put-your-assets-in-their-place/


We just started our taxable account, working on figuring out taxes and tax credits outside RSPs - I'm thinking a one time fee tax accountant would be more useful than a 1% financial advisor.

Heckler

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2021, 10:16:47 PM »
And I'm happy to take the Lambo instead, you won't have to ship it over the border.  ;)

Heckler

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2021, 10:24:41 PM »
and Behavioural finance knowledge is far more important, where a financial adviser might try to stop you jumping of a cliff, they can't actually stop you from selling low.  Do you need to buy a safety net?

https://canadiancouchpotato.com/category/behavioral-finance/



Father Dougal

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2021, 02:47:20 AM »
Don't kid yourself that the management fee will include the fees of the underlying funds.

The advisor will put you in a range of funds in the name of diversification (probably most of them unlisted mutual funds with fees higher than Vanguard) to try to make it difficult for you to leave without triggering capital gains tax and to maximise the commissions they get on selling the funds. The total fees are probably going to be a lot higher than the 10k per year you expect, but you won't see most as they are being charged directly to the funds.

You probably know more about investing than the advisor. The advisor will know more than you about getting cash out of clients.

Maybe you could ask them for an example of the portfolio they would be recommending for you? That would be fun.

I manage everything myself and keep it low cost. If the portfolio is large it doesn't change the investing method for me, but I understand your concern. Whatever you do, you need to be happy with it, so don't give yourself a hard time if that means you prefer an advisor. Good luck.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 07:45:45 AM by Father Dougal »

theoverlook

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2021, 08:20:03 AM »
This marks the first time I've seen $230,000 referred to as "splitting hairs."

shinn497

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2021, 09:17:43 AM »
I actually would advocate for a financial advisor if that is something you want. Most of investing is behavioural. The more money you  have , the greater the chance you make a behavioural mistake. In addition, some financial advisors have access to funds, like from DFA, that others don't.

Would I do it at 1 million? Maybe maybe not. 5 million and it would start to make more sense and even more at 10 million.

BlueHouse

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2021, 09:23:25 AM »
Just here to add that I never felt confident investing my own money but since joining MMM, reading the JL Collins series and basic investopedia articles, as well as having a written Investment Policy, I am extremely confident with the choices I make.  uncertainty is a huge burden and removing it from the equation is liberating.  Sure, there's still plenty of uncertainty in what will happen in the future, but I am confident that my choices are the best for me right now. 

My choices:  pretty darn close to the lazy-man portfolio.  Very simple. 

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2021, 10:55:41 AM »
This marks the first time I've seen $230,000 referred to as "splitting hairs."

Thanks for your contribution. Very helpful analysis!

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2021, 10:59:15 AM »

I definitely have the time/interest to figure it out - I probably spend ~10 hours a week on forums/articles/books about personal finance/saving/investing, so maybe what makes the most sense is to dedicate a larger than normal chunk of that about ETF allocation and then pay the $1k or whatever to have an hourly fee-based advisor give it the once over?

1M or 1K balance, the concepts are the same.  Except for taxes, as your RSP and TFSA likely won't cover that high an amount.

It sounds like you've already educated yourself and are on the right track.  Now it's just a nerve wracking cash injection that's causing you to doubt.  Don't. 

I do have to correct one fallacy - you do have access to ultra low cost ETFs on the US market, such as VTI (aka VTSAX), VXUS, VEA, IEMG.  You just need to convert funds to USD to buy them in a self directed account, and the cost effective way to do it is Norbert's gambit.   I hold only my 25% US index portion in VTI, all my other holdings are in $CAD ETFs from Ishares Canada (Blackrock) or Vanguard.

Figure out your asset allocation according to your risk tolerance and stick with it, no matter the total amount. 
Figure out your asset location for ideal taxes (Canadian Qualified equities in taxable, bonds in RSP, US in RSP or taxable and claim the tax credits, international in TFSA)

these are my go-to's:
https://www.taxtips.ca/
https://canadiancouchpotato.com/2021/01/22/couch-potato-portfolio-returns-for-2020/
https://www.finiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

https://canadiancouchpotato.com/2010/03/05/put-your-assets-in-their-place/


We just started our taxable account, working on figuring out taxes and tax credits outside RSPs - I'm thinking a one time fee tax accountant would be more useful than a 1% financial advisor.

Thank you very much for the resources. I've been following the CCP portfolio to date, but I will need to be more on top of it re: rebalancing and tax efficiency as we branch out from our TFSA's/RRSP's.

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2021, 11:01:51 AM »
I actually would advocate for a financial advisor if that is something you want. Most of investing is behavioural. The more money you  have , the greater the chance you make a behavioural mistake. In addition, some financial advisors have access to funds, like from DFA, that others don't.

Would I do it at 1 million? Maybe maybe not. 5 million and it would start to make more sense and even more at 10 million.

That's actually the part I feel most comfortable with. Swings (even the ~40% I saw last year) don't really affect me much emotionally and I rarely look at my portfolio. What does affect me is the pervasive thought that I'm investing sub-optimally or missing out on value added by an advisor. This thread was a nice reminder that this is non-existent in most cases. Ironically, the higher your net worth becomes, the more it costs to have a FA manage it!

Cano101

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2021, 11:04:06 AM »
Don't kid yourself that the management fee will include the fees of the underlying funds.

The advisor will put you in a range of funds in the name of diversification (probably most of them unlisted mutual funds with fees higher than Vanguard) to try to make it difficult for you to leave without triggering capital gains tax and to maximise the commissions they get on selling the funds. The total fees are probably going to be a lot higher than the 10k per year you expect, but you won't see most as they are being charged directly to the funds.

You probably know more about investing than the advisor. The advisor will know more than you about getting cash out of clients.

Maybe you could ask them for an example of the portfolio they would be recommending for you? That would be fun.

I manage everything myself and keep it low cost. If the portfolio is large it doesn't change the investing method for me, but I understand your concern. Whatever you do, you need to be happy with it, so don't give yourself a hard time if that means you prefer an advisor. Good luck.

I followed up yesterday and indeed you are correct - the total amount is 0.85 plus 0.2 MER of the underlying funds. That was a massive red flag in and of itself, as I asked him that question on the phone and he gave the opposite answer. I also asked him what type of portfolio he would likely put me in given my circumstances (defined benefit pension, 30+ year investing horizon, 200k+ income, and it sounded like 60/40 - 70/30, which struck me as ridiculously conservative for my situation.

reeshau

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2021, 11:46:01 AM »
I also asked him what type of portfolio he would likely put me in given my circumstances (defined benefit pension, 30+ year investing horizon, 200k+ income, and it sounded like 60/40 - 70/30, which struck me as ridiculously conservative for my situation.

Yes! He should have at least taken your pension into account as a bond substiute!  He either is not authorized to deviate from the firm's standard formulas, doesn't know any better (as @Father Dougal says) or doesn't care enough about your portfolio to put in the work.

If you want to think about it in asset allocation terms, you can reverse-calculate your pension payout into an annuity or bond portfolio that would pay that, and add it to your stache.  This method is distorted in today's low interest rate market, so if you do, use an academic calculator with a "normal" rate, rather than actual current quotes.

The other way to think about it is just to reduce your annual budget by that amount, when considering the stache you need.  You have to take your asset allocation into account qualitatively, then.

ysette9

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2021, 12:49:18 PM »
In the US we have flat fee-only fiduciary financial advisors who will charge you a few thousand dollars to put together a financial plan. If you want more advising you pay on an hourly basis. I know of the XY Planning Network and Garrett Planning network which offer advisors under this model. Certainly you can find something similar in Canada.

We have over $3M invested and I do it myself. I have had check ins with a few financial advisors along the way to make sure we are on a reasonable path. I have also posted case studies here and on the Bogleheads forum. If you are interested and learning and doing it yourself it is very doable.

If you aren’t, that is ok as well, but for heaven’s sake, get a fiduciary you pay at an hourly rate, not someone who wants to take a percentage of assets under management.

Thank you - it is reassuring to hear from someone who has done it. Something in my head just clicks when I hit a million thinking "ok - this is big money now, don't screw it up and you are set for life". In reality, the same logic applies to any amount of money.

I definitely have the time/interest to figure it out - I probably spend ~10 hours a week on forums/articles/books about personal finance/saving/investing, so maybe what makes the most sense is to dedicate a larger than normal chunk of that about ETF allocation and then pay the $1k or whatever to have an hourly fee-based advisor give it the once over?
I think if this is a subject that intérêts you then that is a great plan. You can write yourself an investment plan. They are often called an investment policy statement. https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
The act of doing the research to figure lit your plan would be a good exercise, and then writing it down will help you stay the course next time the market takes a dump.

I remember that feeling also of feeling like I had graduated to some higher level and needed more complexity with finances after we crossed some invisible threshold. But like you already said, it is really the same stuff with more commas. Yes, once you have the investments and/or income to become an accredited investor there are certain investments that open up to you that we’re otherwise closed, but you don’t need any of that to meet your goals. If plain old index funds are good enough for Warren Buffet to recommend to his widow then they are good enough for me also.

The key thing to keep in mind is that “good enough” really is good enough with investing. As long as you comfortably meet your goals then you have no reason to take on any additional risk or make your portfolio any more complicated.

ericrugiero

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2021, 10:45:28 AM »
The OP's thoughts and concerns make a lot of sense.  After all, if I could pay an extra .2-.5% to make an extra 2% gains, that would be a no brainer.  The gains would be a lot more than the $230K referenced above.  The argument for self managed is that a high percentage of actively managed funds do WORSE than a broad market index.  If you choose to do broad market index funds (because they typically do better) then there is no reason to pay a percentage on top of the small fee. 

I do like the idea of a fee only fudiciary advisor.  One of these days I may look for one.  The biggest concern with one of those is that most of them aren't familiar with FIRE so you will probably find more information here than from a normal advisor. 

GreatLaker

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2021, 07:18:50 AM »
About a decade ago (mid-50s) I was using two commission based advisors. Service and planning were terrible. Their main recommendations were to buy investments that paid them high commissions.

With the help of www.finiki.org, www.financialwisdomforum.org/forum/ and www.canadiancouchpotato.com I started an ETF portfolio, then gradually moved all my accounts over to totally self directed. I have no regrets at all, and am now well into the two comma club.

I had a fee-only plan done by a CFP, then had an update just before retirement to give me more confidence that I had not made an error in any of my retirement projections. I found the plan well worth the fee. I also use a variable percentage withdrawal method to determine how much I can safely spend each year.

I think if someone has a very complex financial situation with a small business, lots of insurance needs, variable income, and complex tax situations using an advisor that manages investments and charges a % of assets managed may make sense.

But for most regular folks that don't mind DIY investing, I think the self-directed investing approach with ETFs makes a lot of sense. Save 15% of gross income / 20% of net income in a low-cost portfolio, always without fail. Plus having a plan done by a fee-only advisor a decade or so before retirement to make sure you are on the right track.

I would never go back to using a commission based or % fee based advisor. Can't see the value at all.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 07:22:48 AM by GreatLaker »

TomTX

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2021, 04:51:59 PM »
Thanks everyone for the responses so far. I'm wondering if someone can talk me through this mental hangup I'm having:

When I plug in the numbers at https://www.begintoinvest.com/expense-ratio-calculator/, I get:

$1m returning 6% at 0.55% fee vs 0.22% fee over a 20 year period results in approx $230 000 difference on a $3m+ portfolio. Aren't we starting to split hairs a bit at this point? If on my own I return 6% using what I learn online and he returns 6.2%, we're at breakeven. If I make a rebalancing error or follow poor advice, it's a far bigger mistake than $230 000.

On one hand, $10k/year average seems ridiculous even with all of the "value added" tax planning type services, but on the other, is an extra ~0.3% really that outrageous to manage everything?

What managing? Put it in a couple of Vanguard funds and log in once a year to rebalance. You will waste more time talking to the financial advisor trying to prove their worth.

In addition: Other than their marketing, what evidence do you have that a financial advisor will outperform basic indexing?

robartsd

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2021, 05:47:15 PM »
There is nothing different at this level of wealth than before.
There is one key difference...how motivated financial advisors are to get you into the AUM model. Don't fall prey to their marketing.

If you really want some advise from an expert, find a fee only advisor and manage your own assets.

ysette9

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2021, 08:17:07 AM »
I’m listening to a podcast now by Michael kitces, the target audience is other financial advisors. The woman being interviewed works with high net worth clients. The way they break their service buckets down is: regular wealth management services for people in the 3.5-20 million range and special services for the “family office” $20M+ range. According to her the needs her more complex once you cross the $20M mark because you are talking about multi generational wealth planning and the like.

My point being, this feels like a lot of money to you (and to me), but logistically it isn’t at a point where you need to add complexity or cost because it just isn’t that much.

rmendpara

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2021, 09:28:56 AM »
Don't think $1M in early 30s automatically means you'll need an advisor.

If you are higher income and anticipate your invested assets to grow up to $5-10M+ over the coming years, then it may help to have an advisor at some point later to help with estate planning and tax planning more than just your investment management.

In the near term, I'd say managing your own wealth is fairly simple, so long as you are okay with keeping it that way. A fairly simple ETF/fund portfolio with <5 funds can get you most of what an advisor will do. Also, you'll want to consider your 'stomach' to ride market volatility and if having an advisor will help you stay the course rather than panic at the wrong time.

I give this advice as I've recently crossed the $1M net worth mark, also early 30s wife and I, and we interviewed a few advisors recently. My conclusion for our particular situation was to keep our investment plans simple. I manage our Vanguard brokerage account myself (3 funds, VFIAX 65%, VTIAX 25%, VBILX 10%), and the rest is in employer retirement accounts, target date funds 2055.

At some point our net worth may grow to a point where we would benefit from some more long term estate and tax planning which is where I'd seek the help of an advisor or just hire someone on a fee only basis... but well before that I'd want to make sure our kids turn out okay and can handle that type of wealth responsibly.

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2021, 02:57:11 PM »
I will go against the grain here a bit.
Here, we put things into VTSAX or whatever equivalent and, much like boggleheads, get caught up on a 0.03% vs 0.04%. Often.

What OP is suggesting, however is a bit of guidance with things like taxes, fees and other management. Yes, to some of us here, it's stupid simple! But then again, there's two sides to this coin.

Many here can claim how easy it is to simply plan for 4% drawdown, for example. Perhaps after spending a few nights discussing Early Retirement Now's award winning 40something part blog on Sequence of Return Risk, we can discuss how little we know.

Further, a lot less of us on this blog are Canadian, so the data is slightly skewed. We're talking about different Capital Gains, Dividends (qualified, unqualified) Margin vs TFSA vs RRSP etc. Dan at CCP is great, but I find something like Canadianportfoliomanagerblog (Justin Bender, his PwC coworker) is much more in depth. After finding Justin, I slashed fees by about 0.25%, because of level I and II foreign witholding taxes, for example.

Now, before we all jump on a bandwagon of "lowest MER" it's that simple, call it done...perhaps we need to hear a bit more from OP. Is there a small business, how was the $1M windfall gained (tax implications?) What are the needs from the portfolio, what's their appetite of risk.

I don't doubt 99% of advisors are junk, 96% in Canada are non-fee based, so personally biased in having Assets Under Management. Otherwise, like any career, you'll have good advisors just like bad ones. But just like a doctor, you probably won't know until they've operated on your emergency surgery. So what's someone to do? Educate as much as possible. I've mentioned a few things, here. Kitces is also fantastic, and there's a lot of bullshit to shift through to find the right answers, so that takes time.

Alternatively, the fee based route is great. Perhaps someone in the community, like Boomer and Echo? Maybe a tax accountant for tax planning purposes? Specific needs, specific answers, for a fee. But overall, it's very true: no one will ever care about your money as much as you do. Ever.

Finally, confidence. Like many have said here, the 7th digit is just that. Many people here have $2-3M+ and they're very succcessful at managing it themselves. Welcome to a community of like minded and local individuals who can help with those tough answers, have rapport with specialists like tax accountants in your area and can help steer you the right way to answers by yourself or with said specialists. We're here to give you confidence, and tell you when you need to level up to someone specialized. No one size fits all, but we should all be happy to help give you specific confidence points to say, hey, we've been there too.

TomTX

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2021, 03:41:07 PM »
What OP is suggesting, however is a bit of guidance with things like taxes, fees and other management. Yes, to some of us here, it's stupid simple! But then again, there's two sides to this coin.

Taxes? You want a tax accountant, not a financial advisor. Fees and other management? That's simple arithmetic. Fees charged by funds beyond barebones are not worthwhile. Pick low cost, broad based index funds. Set you asset allocation, rebalance once a year.

Done.

markbike528CBX

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2021, 05:02:23 PM »
and Behavioural finance knowledge is far more important, where a financial adviser might try to stop you jumping of a cliff, they can't actually stop you from selling low.  Do you need to buy a safety net?

@Cano101 ,  looks like lots of good advice on this thread.  Nope, you don't need a AUM broker/stealer.

I have seen evidence of some financial advisors telling people not to watch the news and just chill.  Some people need that and it might be worth the fees for them.

If someone (not you)is the type to need hand holding, that person likely will SCREAM at the financial advisor to SELL SELL SELL at the a) slightest hint of down and/or b)at the bottom.
Source: Two financial advisor friends.

BlueHouse

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Re: $1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2022, 04:33:53 PM »
My brother-in-law manages all the finances for himself and his wife (my sis).  Although she has been the major breadwinner, she has zero interest in getting involved in investment planning.  So he does it all.  He's made some big mistakes in the past by investing in individual stocks, but has since found an investor that they trust and that has had satisfactory outcome for them.  Some very close friends of theirs use the same advisor. 

BIL knows I follow MMM and we talk a bit about our portfolios.  Last month, he read a book that his advisor suggested for him and then he suggested I read it too, which I did.  (I think the author is actually BIL's advisor too)  Very mustachian advice.  Very Bogle-y type of investing.  I liked the book and thought it was well written.  In fact, all the things that I SAY I won't do, but then can't stop myself from doing anyway, are addressed with good examples and maybe it will sink in more now.  Prob not, but maybe.  Here's the book, which I do recommend:

https://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Every-Investor-Makes-Avoid/dp/1118929004

Anyway, halfway thru the book, BIL asks what I think, and I say I like it, it's the strategy that I follow, but that I was curious when he was going to get to the part about "now hire me".  BIL says "asset allocation, taxes, estate planning, etc".  (They have much more money than I have).

So I ask him about his asset allocation across different brokerages and he shows me that every one of their accounts (tax-advantaged and taxable alike) has the same allocation between Equities, Bonds, and other non-traditional investments.  I show him some of the advice to get equities in a taxable and bonds in 401K/IRAs instead of each account having similar allocation.  At which point, our convo ends because he can never be wrong. 

Is there any reason not to follow the advice on where to hold equities/bonds?   I'm curious now if there's more to this advice than my simple mind has understood. 

ysette9

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$1m+ Financial Advisor vs. Self Directed
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2022, 05:53:35 PM »
My brother-in-law manages all the finances for himself and his wife (my sis).  Although she has been the major breadwinner, she has zero interest in getting involved in investment planning.  So he does it all.  He's made some big mistakes in the past by investing in individual stocks, but has since found an investor that they trust and that has had satisfactory outcome for them.  Some very close friends of theirs use the same advisor. 

BIL knows I follow MMM and we talk a bit about our portfolios.  Last month, he read a book that his advisor suggested for him and then he suggested I read it too, which I did.  (I think the author is actually BIL's advisor too)  Very mustachian advice.  Very Bogle-y type of investing.  I liked the book and thought it was well written.  In fact, all the things that I SAY I won't do, but then can't stop myself from doing anyway, are addressed with good examples and maybe it will sink in more now.  Prob not, but maybe.  Here's the book, which I do recommend:

https://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Every-Investor-Makes-Avoid/dp/1118929004

Anyway, halfway thru the book, BIL asks what I think, and I say I like it, it's the strategy that I follow, but that I was curious when he was going to get to the part about "now hire me".  BIL says "asset allocation, taxes, estate planning, etc".  (They have much more money than I have).

So I ask him about his asset allocation across different brokerages and he shows me that every one of their accounts (tax-advantaged and taxable alike) has the same allocation between Equities, Bonds, and other non-traditional investments.  I show him some of the advice to get equities in a taxable and bonds in 401K/IRAs instead of each account having similar allocation.  At which point, our convo ends because he can never be wrong. 

Is there any reason not to follow the advice on where to hold equities/bonds?   I'm curious now if there's more to this advice than my simple mind has understood.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement

There is a lot there and personally I think there is room for some disagreement in times like this when bond yields are really low. There are some obvious wins like not sticking equity real estate in a taxable account and trying your best to keep Roth accounts as equity-heavy as possible. I think find placement it is icing on the cake though, the cake being saving a good amount and choosing passive, broad index funds.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 05:55:39 PM by ysette9 »

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