Author Topic: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?  (Read 27944 times)

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2022, 04:28:40 PM »
ARKK is -23% YTD as of market close on Feb 4.
https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/arkk/performance

Since DaTrill broke the ice on the contrarian view... when asking for "ARKK" holders - do negative shares count?  There's a new ETF called "SARK" which holds short exposure to everything in ARKK.

DaTrill

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #101 on: February 08, 2022, 11:07:25 AM »
The more important measure is the dollar investor return, which estimates how much the average investors has gained/lost in the investment.  This is a more valid measure of how much value ARK has increased or destroyed for investors and it's a historic loss for ARK investors.  All ARK funds did is run up illiquid stocks, this is not stock picking and there is no way to unwind this trade without more losses.

SARK and any short ETF needs to be investigated with great care as what the investment proclaims and what the investment delivers can be starkly different and only be determined by reading the prospectus. 

IMHO, investments that enrich the managers and impoverished investors should not be allowed in regulated markets.  Other insidious investments are any leveraged 2x, 3x ETFs also don't deliver on what most investors assume and IMHO, should be banned along with strategies that have no exit plan for investors.  Owners/managers of companies bought by ARK were provided great exit points, but investors will be left holding the bag.         

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2022, 02:32:07 AM »
Do you really want this idiot managing your money?


MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #103 on: February 12, 2022, 06:30:02 AM »
Other insidious investments are any leveraged 2x, 3x ETFs also don't deliver on what most investors assume and IMHO, should be banned along with strategies that have no exit plan for investors.
I made a shit ton of money off DPST, which is 3x regional banks, after the market left it in the toilet in 2020.  So my vote is naturally for keeping it.  For anyone who hates 2x/3x ETFs and doesn't want to be tempted, Vanguard doesn't allow them.  My Vanguard account has options and margin enabled, and they still won't allow it.  If ETFs are restricted, they're no longer ETFs - they can't trade freely on the stock market.  So I'd favor keeping them, but also keeping the warnings put up when investors initiate a purchase at many brokerages.

DaTrill

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2022, 01:41:44 PM »
Count yourself lucky.  Leverage funds at most likely ETN and not ETFs.  Leverage funds only deliver the intraday returns and not the entire return on the investment.  For example, if I stock closes at $100, then bad news is released and opens at $90, then closes at $91, the short leveraged holder will lose $1X(leverage) and not gain $9X(leverage).  I've attempted to explain this, but usually just refer individuals read the prospectus (50+ pages) or call the provider to find out what the money is actually held from their investment (in a pool).     

DaTrill

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mistymoney

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2022, 02:02:25 PM »
Whether or not you think her funds are misguided, I'd hardly call Cathie Wood an idiot.

waltworks

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2022, 02:10:38 PM »
She has been super successful at extracting money from investors, so I'd also not call her an idiot.

I'd never, ever invest in one of her funds. But that's because I know smart people mostly lose money trying to pick stocks just like dumb people.

-W

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2022, 03:12:43 PM »
I'm very comfortable calling her an idiot and a charlatan.

She got extremely lucky riding on the coattails of the epic Tesla runup, but there is nothing else in her track record to suggest that she can recreate the magic in a bottle another time.

Everything else she touches turns to shit. Last year, even with Tesla as her biggest holding solidly up and the wider market solidly up (in fact, in one of the easiest years you could ever imagine), she managed to lose a tonne of money. That takes some doing.

She think that if a company ticks her "innovation" checkbox then its an automatic buy, and it doesn't matter what price you pay for it.  She doesn't seem to fundamentally understand that there is a world of difference between a good asset and a good investment. The quality of an asset isn't what determines if something is a good or bad investment, it's the the price you pay.

She outperformed in the run up simply because she was holding very risky high beta stocks. In a strong bull market, granted, you can expect to outperform with such stock selection. In a bear market you get crushed.

ARKK's 5 year Sharpe ratio is now running at a rather mediocre 0.9 vs 1.28 for the QQQ - ergo, you want a high risk play, you are better off just leveraging by your desired risk factor into the Qs.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 03:15:10 PM by vand »

Blender Bender

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2022, 03:23:05 PM »
I would not give her my money.

But also there could be some misunderstanding/expectations mismatch. Investors thought that ARK is a vehicle to make money. Wrong. ARK is a vehicle to bet on very risky technologies / narrow stocks.

I'm ignoring here the fact that her bet had no chance to work well since she inflated small tech companies stock by throwing huge $ on them, creating a huge distortions. So, bad execution, no chance of making it working. Bad implementation. Also the cryptos...

Another thought I had about her. She made it clear that she is religious/god something. This explain the outcome: only the insiders made good money. Low ethics.

Blender Bender

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2022, 03:41:31 PM »
Would i call her an idiot? Not fully. She is not much worse than other her peers. I would call her naive, just got lucky at some point in time.
I kind of respect her to sticking to her guns. Wait a second, this is a bad trait, she is not learning...

One thing stands out to me. She is so sure of herself that it is to me mind blowing. Like a cult leader that must be always sure.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 04:46:58 PM by ArnoldK »

goodmoneygoodlife

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #111 on: March 06, 2022, 08:25:01 AM »
Most funds don't beat the market long-term.

This fund has not been an exception to this rule.

I used to be bullish on the fund but their dumping of PLTR and concentrating more on TSLA makes no sense to me from either:
1. Their thesis of '5-year horizon'. They are re-allocating way too much for their supposed long plays.
2. Diversification perspective. They say they want to concentrate more money on higher-conviction stocks when the market is bad....why? That makes a risky situation even more risky (you have to be a lot more correct about the rebound) and that's no longer investing in innovation, but investing based on market whims.

Some of the things they make sense to me but a lot of things are seemingly contradictory.

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #112 on: March 07, 2022, 03:20:05 AM »
These funds could essily get cut by three quarters imo.

Those recently piling in are the "buy the top" crowd who 12 months ago had never even heard of Cathie Wood.

Ask yourself do you really want to be buying with them? Suggest you google Janus fund for a lesson from history


vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #113 on: March 07, 2022, 05:14:52 AM »
Still no sign of capitulation yet, as - unbelievably - ARKK continues to attract net inflows of $568m over the last month
https://etfdb.com/etf/ARKK/#fund-flows

As stupid and unconvincing as she sounds every time she gets airtime on CNBC, I guess her regular pep talks are required to keep the lemming buying

And her investors are just as stupid:

$16.5bn net inflows vs $12.2bn AUM means that the typical investor in ARKK is -27% under water
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 05:16:55 AM by vand »

Painters Brush

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #114 on: April 17, 2022, 10:05:13 AM »
If you feel that ARK funds will increase in value, you owe it to yourself to read this Twitter thread and consider it seriously.

I think the author makes an interesting and thoughtful case. Get both sides of the argument.

https://twitter.com/ttp_cap/status/1380634961594699776?s=21&t=4AzJ6J_G12nxO5rOuw4Jow

ChpBstrd

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #115 on: April 18, 2022, 06:52:42 AM »
If you feel that ARK funds will increase in value, you owe it to yourself to read this Twitter thread and consider it seriously.

I think the author makes an interesting and thoughtful case. Get both sides of the argument.

https://twitter.com/ttp_cap/status/1380634961594699776?s=21&t=4AzJ6J_G12nxO5rOuw4Jow

That's a great thread that taught me something about bull stampedes, the influencer economy, momentum investing, the politics of lying, and efficient markets hypothesis, all in a very compact format.

bacchi

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2022, 09:34:09 AM »
If you feel that ARK funds will increase in value, you owe it to yourself to read this Twitter thread and consider it seriously.

I think the author makes an interesting and thoughtful case. Get both sides of the argument.

https://twitter.com/ttp_cap/status/1380634961594699776?s=21&t=4AzJ6J_G12nxO5rOuw4Jow

That's a great thread that taught me something about bull stampedes, the influencer economy, momentum investing, the politics of lying, and efficient markets hypothesis, all in a very compact format.

It makes sense with Wood's outrageous claims (Tesla to $3000!) but why hasn't it worked lately? Pretty much since that tweet was posted, ARKK has fallen. Was Ark screaming "Look at me, look at me" too much and people started ignoring it? Or has the money that would've gone into ARKK instead gone into crypto and NFTs and meme stocks?


MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2022, 10:02:02 AM »
If you feel that ARK funds will increase in value, you owe it to yourself to read this Twitter thread and consider it seriously.

I think the author makes an interesting and thoughtful case. Get both sides of the argument.

https://twitter.com/ttp_cap/status/1380634961594699776?s=21&t=4AzJ6J_G12nxO5rOuw4Jow

That's a great thread that taught me something about bull stampedes, the influencer economy, momentum investing, the politics of lying, and efficient markets hypothesis, all in a very compact format.
It makes sense with Wood's outrageous claims (Tesla to $3000!) but why hasn't it worked lately? Pretty much since that tweet was posted, ARKK has fallen. Was Ark screaming "Look at me, look at me" too much and people started ignoring it? Or has the money that would've gone into ARKK instead gone into crypto and NFTs and meme stocks?
Some of my investments in Nov/Dec 2021 overlapped with ARKK, so I had a ring side seat to watch those stocks get beaten up.  I would say most of the beat down is from the Fed's interest rate hikes, which you can see in the 1 year graph of ARKK's price.  Since the Fed's policy does not favor these stocks, I don't own them now.

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2022, 10:13:14 AM »
No I have been short her fund for the last couple of years. If you look at her portfolio it is a collection of the worst non  profitable bubble shitcos out there. Shorting her fund is a convenient way of sorting a basket of the worst, and collecting her excessive management fee on top.

Even owning tesla - which hasnt collapsed yet, hasnt saved her performance - it has been truly dreadful since last February.

Good luck.

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #119 on: April 21, 2022, 05:27:08 PM »
Here are ARK's holdings:
https://cathiesark.com/ark-funds-combined/complete-holdings

With few exceptions, her stock picking has sucked nuts. Most of her holdings are in deep loss territory.  Her single noticeable success was Tesla.

Unfortunately, most of the investors who bought last year will likely NEVER get their money back. 

Let's say lightning strikes twice and her 2nd biggest holding Teledoc, does a x10 over the next couple of years. That would take it from being a $1bn in net assets to $10bn.   but TDOC is only 7% of the portfolio. A x10 would boost the overall portfolio by about 63%, but she needs roughly a 200% return to get back the the levels that many investors were buying at, so she needs lightning to strike another 3 or 4 times... how likely do you think that is? At the moment everything she is holding is going down.. it's the nature of these high risk stocks that most of them will fail.  Realistically, most will continue to go down, and she'll need 6 or 7 Teslas to make up for all the ones that don't make it.

As a stock picker you get a Tesla once or twice in your lifetime. She got hers, and then proceeded to blow it on dross that will never come good.


Mr. Boh

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #120 on: April 28, 2022, 07:19:40 AM »
Nice work vand! I reread this entire thread and it seems to me you have been exactly right. I kind of feel bad for the ark investors but at least they were warned.

js82

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #121 on: April 28, 2022, 08:19:10 AM »
Most funds don't beat the market long-term.

If you extend out the time horizon long enough, it's not merely difficult to beat the market, it eventually becomes mathematically impossible.

As a fund beats the market over time, it:

1) becomes a progressively larger part of the market
2) unless the managers close it to new investors, new money makes it a progressively larger fraction of the market, because investors will chase high-performing funds.

At T = infinity you can't beat the market, because if you beat the market continuously and don't have investors pulling their cash out (and why would they if you're beating the market), you'll eventually end up owning the entire market at some very long time horizon.

This is similar to the reason why Buffett/Berkshire Hathaway has been struggling to match its past returns in more recent years - when you get big enough you eventually reach the point that there just aren't enough sufficiently large outperformers left relative to the size of your portfolio for crushing the market to be a reasonable long-term expectation for a huge entity.

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2022, 08:52:09 AM »
TDOC -48% :D

She is certainly innovating new ways of losing money.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 09:03:46 AM by vand »

Mr. Boh

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #123 on: May 05, 2022, 10:29:42 AM »
I read this article today "Elon Musk, Cathie Wood Say Passive Funds Have Gone Too Far." It made me laugh but it also made me think of this thread.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-05/elon-musk-and-cathie-wood-say-passive-investing-has-gone-too-far


shureShote

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #124 on: May 05, 2022, 10:54:25 AM »
I read this article today "Elon Musk, Cathie Wood Say Passive Funds Have Gone Too Far." It made me laugh but it also made me think of this thread.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-05/elon-musk-and-cathie-wood-say-passive-investing-has-gone-too-far

That was pretty comical. I don't feel too bad for folks who have jumped on and lost a bunch. One sad fact is that she (like others) continue to make a lot of money and thus can sustain for a long time. And then, she will make some move that is pure luck (even idiots get lucky...) and all the bad performance will be forgotten and a new set of victims will dump their money in. It's good work if you can get it, that's for sure.

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #125 on: May 06, 2022, 12:46:36 PM »
These funds could essily get cut by three quarters imo.

Those recently piling in are the "buy the top" crowd who 12 months ago had never even heard of Cathie Wood.

Ask yourself do you really want to be buying with them? Suggest you google Janus fund for a lesson from history



Mid-40 handle.
In real terms we are just about -75% now.



I have to confess that even I am quite shocked at the rapid implosion that ARKK has suffered.  It takes some special talent to underperform so badly, because it would be almost impossible to replicate this last 14 months just by picking stocks at random no matter how hard you tried.

The fact that ARK actually charges its investors huge fees with the promise of making them money while actually losing them money is a quite brilliant business model.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 12:51:44 PM by vand »

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #126 on: May 07, 2022, 01:04:10 PM »
This is interesting to read in retrospect. Especially love reading all the posts in 2021 and then corresponding the prices to them.

I was one of the people that put a small amount of my portfolio ($2000) into ARKK at the top when it was worth around $156. I knew nothing about the fund other than it was investing in "innovative and future thinking stocks". I thought it wouldnt hurt to diversify my portfolio a bit with such a thing. A few weeks later it had dropped to $120 I heard the Animal Spirits podcast warning about how people wernt going to be able to get out of the exits fast enough and I sold at around $125 In the end I am lucky to only have had a small amount of my money in it. I wish I had read this thread before hand. Another good lesson in not trying to be a stock picker, even with a little "play" money.

After that event I havnt bought or sold a single fund or stock, I've just stuck to my allocations and stopped checking my balances. I always do better when I ignore things. Like when I pulled out 1% of my portfolio at the bottom of the COVID crash to have on hand for "emergency spending money" because I was scared I might be layed off from my job due to budget cuts (which is pretty much the opposite of what happened in the months after that). I knew it was bad to react to the market in that way but I still did it.

This is just a word of warning for new investors - you always think you will be the rational actor, you tell yourself you have a strategy and you are going to stick to it, but when SHTF it is a lot more difficult than you think to act in such a way. Its best to really ignore any extreme events and hype in the market and be boring.

mistymoney

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #127 on: May 09, 2022, 11:46:27 AM »
This is interesting to read in retrospect. Especially love reading all the posts in 2021 and then corresponding the prices to them.

I was one of the people that put a small amount of my portfolio ($2000) into ARKK at the top when it was worth around $156. I knew nothing about the fund other than it was investing in "innovative and future thinking stocks". I thought it wouldnt hurt to diversify my portfolio a bit with such a thing. A few weeks later it had dropped to $120 I heard the Animal Spirits podcast warning about how people wernt going to be able to get out of the exits fast enough and I sold at around $125 In the end I am lucky to only have had a small amount of my money in it. I wish I had read this thread before hand. Another good lesson in not trying to be a stock picker, even with a little "play" money.

After that event I havnt bought or sold a single fund or stock, I've just stuck to my allocations and stopped checking my balances. I always do better when I ignore things. Like when I pulled out 1% of my portfolio at the bottom of the COVID crash to have on hand for "emergency spending money" because I was scared I might be layed off from my job due to budget cuts (which is pretty much the opposite of what happened in the months after that). I knew it was bad to react to the market in that way but I still did it.

This is just a word of warning for new investors - you always think you will be the rational actor, you tell yourself you have a strategy and you are going to stick to it, but when SHTF it is a lot more difficult than you think to act in such a way. Its best to really ignore any extreme events and hype in the market and be boring.

I don't think it is even that complicated - any action could be the best depending on furture outcomes, which are unknown. So making decisions for unknown events is a losing proposition. So best to have a blanket plan that covers most eventualities and you'll be good 98% of the time.

The 2% is pretty near impossible to plan around I think.

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #128 on: May 09, 2022, 12:12:59 PM »
I'm tempted to suggest after such a savage fall that we are reaching capitulation, but I see no sign of it yet in investor behaviour.

People are still buying into this tripe.

+$511m net inflows in the last week, and +$800m over the last month.

https://etfdb.com/etf/ARKK/#fund-flows

What was the saying about this being a definition of insanity?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #129 on: May 09, 2022, 01:42:02 PM »
People are still buying into this tripe.

+$511m net inflows in the last week, and +$800m over the last month.

https://etfdb.com/etf/ARKK/#fund-flows
It's ... accelerating?!

I guess from their perspective it's just buying the dip?  None of these investors were around for the global financial crisis.  I wonder if they think all crashes are like March 2020, ending the year up +20%?

Back in Nov 2021 I bought some individual stocks that overlap with ARKK.  Some may even be good buys if held 5 years... but a bear market with 7-9% inflation is not kind to companies that consistently lose money.  These may have been growth companies in 2021, but they're shrink companies now.

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #130 on: May 11, 2022, 06:18:26 PM »
These two geniuses, eh?




vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #131 on: December 19, 2022, 01:40:36 PM »
Broken clock is no longer correct.  The sooner ARK investors figure this out the better off they will be.  She is the Henry Blodgett of this era, will never learn and keep saying the same thing until she writes her tell-all book 10+ years from now.

People mocked her for her early on-board Tesla investment too. Sure, no guarantee of success going forward, but also way too early to say she’s selling snake oil. Her funds are down over the last six months, who cares, she’s very clear that ARK invests on a 5 year horizon. Tesla went mostly sideways for years....until it didn’t. Those in then know that ignored the SP movement and focused on the company’s performance were rewarded. That’s the nature of investing in disruptive technology. No need to argue it though, let’s check back in a few years.

And that 5yr horizon is now a 4yr horizon since people piled in a year ago. 5 years is a very short period of time to setting expectations for your investors when most of your companies have never turned so much a a penny of profit.

On one hand you have Vanguard saying "do what we recommend and you should earn 3-4% for the next 10 years."

"On the other hand you have Cathie saying do what I recommend and you should earn 30-40% for the next 5 years."

Its possible both these could be accurate, but much more likely that one of them will be spectacularly wrong.

For all of Buffett and Munger's warts, they have never been stupid enough to start predicting their future performance, they always simply promise to do what best do is in their own power, which is to research and buy good companies at prices which provide a reasonable margin of safety based on the best estimate of the future cashflows of the business. They know how difficult it is to sustain even any positive excess return over time.

Someone who bought ARK-K Innovation Fund five years ago is up 390% on their investment. That’s a 78% annual return even after the recent drop! Same for ARK-G, if you bought five years ago, you’re up 309% or 61% annual return. Remind me again of the problem here? Let’s check in again in a few years because it's easy to kick ARK and Cathie when tech is dipping and ARK funds got overheated with new investors piling on. They were due for a retraction. Doesn’t mean Cathie is a fraud. Past performance suggests Cathie and crew know what they're doing. Wall Street analysts set price targets all the time, usually one-year targets. Not sure why Cathie is getting singled out for offering guidance for a five-year horizon. Much like with Elon/Tesla, it comes off as personal somehow.

According to MorningStar, ARKK's 5yr annualised return is 34.38%

Of course that's a fantastic return. Except that hands up anyone in the room who was invested with them back in Jan 2017? No? Didn't think so. It's easy to pick out fund AFTER they have grown and say "look how well the holders have done" but the reality is that nobody puts any sort of meaningful amount of money into a fund before it has had its stellar performance period. People pile into funds after they have had a massive run up.

What a difference not-quite-a-year makes.   

The rolling annualized 5yr return has fallen from +34.38% at the start of the year to -4% today.

And now only a +400% return needed to get back to its Feb '21 peak.

At this rate you wouldn't rule out even Tesla sinking below her average buying price.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #132 on: December 19, 2022, 01:51:08 PM »
So the moral of the story is we can’t judge the wisdom of an investment from its past returns?

We never figured out how to get that message through to people holding Bitcoin, Tesla, AARK, or COIN. It was utterly impossible.

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #133 on: December 19, 2022, 02:26:42 PM »
So the moral of the story is we can’t judge the wisdom of an investment from its past returns?

We never figured out how to get that message through to people holding Bitcoin, Tesla, AARK, or COIN. It was utterly impossible.

Personally I firmly believe that is just the way it has to be.  The point of public capital markets is to efficiently allocate scarce resources, and for that to happen money usually has to be lost from the least productive areas, so the process might as well start by taking it from those who are the most careless and have such demonstrably little respect for money.

A private investor's first line of defence should always be: don't be a sucker.   If you buy into hype, sorry, but you are a sucker.

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #134 on: December 19, 2022, 02:33:07 PM »
We never figured out how to get that message through to people holding Bitcoin, Tesla, AARK, or COIN. It was utterly impossible.
Fund managers are judged on AUM, and while ARKK performance has been terrible (-65% YTD), the outflows and inflows are roughly equal.  That's a huge accomplishment, to not have massive outflows with that level of losses.

I think ARKK has further to fall as recession risk is priced in - I hold ARKK put options.  But when ARKK and the S&P 500 finish crashing, which one has more potential for recovery?

I would caution ARKK holders that 2020-2021 was unique, and stocks like Zoom (ZM) may not see those valuations for a very long time.  I don't think ARKK ($35.22/sh) can triple to $100/sh over the next few years.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #135 on: December 19, 2022, 04:06:44 PM »
I bought a handful of shares of an ARK space fund (ARKX) as it seemed to be one of the few ways to get exposure to the space industry since SpaceX is private and the NASA contractors are all just giant defense contractors that are dinosaurs when it comes to the space industry.

Looks like it's down 42% since I bought - though Rocket Lab is down 68% since I bought a few shares of that around the same time (spring 2021). Fortunately, both investments were just a few hundred dollars I had sitting in a taxable account.

Scandium

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #136 on: December 23, 2022, 06:25:54 AM »
I bought a handful of shares of an ARK space fund (ARKX) as it seemed to be one of the few ways to get exposure to the space industry since SpaceX is private and the NASA contractors are all just giant defense contractors that are dinosaurs when it comes to the space industry.

Looks like it's down 42% since I bought - though Rocket Lab is down 68% since I bought a few shares of that around the same time (spring 2021). Fortunately, both investments were just a few hundred dollars I had sitting in a taxable account.
Looked into it. Just found it funny it's holding John Deere. Space farming!

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #137 on: December 27, 2022, 08:37:20 AM »
Alright. Time for some critical reappraisal.

This thing is now printing with a 20-something handle - meaning that a holder from peak has suffered a -85% peak to trough real drawdown. Unbelieveable.  Many holdings have suffered a -90% or worse peak to trough drawdown

But as we know in investing, that is all in the past and it is the future that counts.  While my dim opinion of Cathie Wood has not changed in the slightest, I think we could be closer to the final lows than some perma bears may suspect.  Net fund flows, while they have been positive over the whole of 2022 have been negative in the lasts 6 months, and especially in the last 6 weeks or so, indicating that many investors have reached exasperation and just want to get out - always a reassuring sign.

While I can't say that I have any confidence that ARKK won't fall further, such is its beta to the overall market, I think the risk/reward on offer for this type of long duration play is much better from these levels. Could end 2023 at $15 or $50 and neither would surprise me much.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #138 on: December 29, 2022, 10:54:22 AM »
But as we know in investing, that is all in the past and it is the future that counts.  While my dim opinion of Cathie Wood has not changed in the slightest, I think we could be closer to the final lows than some perma bears may suspect.  Net fund flows, while they have been positive over the whole of 2022 have been negative in the lasts 6 months, and especially in the last 6 weeks or so, indicating that many investors have reached exasperation and just want to get out - always a reassuring sign.

While I can't say that I have any confidence that ARKK won't fall further, such is its beta to the overall market, I think the risk/reward on offer for this type of long duration play is much better from these levels. Could end 2023 at $15 or $50 and neither would surprise me much.
I think our highest-odds scenario is a recession lasting roughly 10-18 months starting in mid-or-late 2023 that will bring the S&P500 to a PE ratio of about 15-16 (in terms of 2022 earnings) compared to the current 20. That means I'm thinking in terms of "what do I wish I or my family had done in the 1991, 2000-2003, 2008-2009, and 2020 recessions/corrections?"

The answer in all four cases was "I wish I/we had bought tech stocks near the bottom." Tech stocks had the fastest growth after all four recessions, I believe. So according to this logic, ARKK might be just the ticket after everyone has given up on it.

However, what gives me pause is the speculative quality of many ARKK holdings. Many of their holdings were unprofitable in the best of times, are burning investors' cash now, and are dependent upon future cash infusions which will not be available during the recession*. I wonder if companies like TDOC, SHOP, or PD will be around in a couple of years. If a handful of ARKK companies turn into penny stocks, it will be hard for the fund's winners to make up for the loss, even if they multiply in value.

So if ARKK is the bleeding edge of speculative tech, it could be possible the maximum returns will be somewhere lower on the risk spectrum - sort of like how junk bonds aren't always the highest yielding bond class.

VGT and VUG, for example, concentrate on mature and highly profitable tech companies. QQQ is tech-heavy but lets the market do the weighting, while being less vulnerable to any one or two companies blowing up. VBK has a good chance of catching the next great small cap growth stock that becomes a big cap. Any one of these has a lower ER - in some cases 10x lower - than ARKK's 0.75%. That's a lot to pay for a portfolio of only 30 stocks in an era of commission-free trading. Why not just click "buy" 30x and not pay so much for Cathie to click "buy" for you?

It probably makes sense to pivot into tech/growth within the first 6-9 months of a recession, which translates to right about the time a recession becomes apparent in the unemployment and GDP data. Stocks can, and often do, rise through a recession unless there is a cataclysm like the Great Depression, GFC, or 2000 stock meltdown going on.


Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinmckenna/2022/04/01/how-stocks-perform-before-during-and-after-recessions-may-surprise-you/?sh=2b2fef1f249d

*Yes, I am aware of how growth companies manage negative earnings to avoid tax liability, and I am aware of the value of R&D / marketing investments early in a company's trajectory, but to some extent that might not matter when the SHTF.

vand

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #139 on: December 29, 2022, 12:16:01 PM »
But as we know in investing, that is all in the past and it is the future that counts.  While my dim opinion of Cathie Wood has not changed in the slightest, I think we could be closer to the final lows than some perma bears may suspect.  Net fund flows, while they have been positive over the whole of 2022 have been negative in the lasts 6 months, and especially in the last 6 weeks or so, indicating that many investors have reached exasperation and just want to get out - always a reassuring sign.

While I can't say that I have any confidence that ARKK won't fall further, such is its beta to the overall market, I think the risk/reward on offer for this type of long duration play is much better from these levels. Could end 2023 at $15 or $50 and neither would surprise me much.
I think our highest-odds scenario is a recession lasting roughly 10-18 months starting in mid-or-late 2023 that will bring the S&P500 to a PE ratio of about 15-16 (in terms of 2022 earnings) compared to the current 20. That means I'm thinking in terms of "what do I wish I or my family had done in the 1991, 2000-2003, 2008-2009, and 2020 recessions/corrections?"

The answer in all four cases was "I wish I/we had bought tech stocks near the bottom." Tech stocks had the fastest growth after all four recessions, I believe. So according to this logic, ARKK might be just the ticket after everyone has given up on it.

However, what gives me pause is the speculative quality of many ARKK holdings. Many of their holdings were unprofitable in the best of times, are burning investors' cash now, and are dependent upon future cash infusions which will not be available during the recession*. I wonder if companies like TDOC, SHOP, or PD will be around in a couple of years. If a handful of ARKK companies turn into penny stocks, it will be hard for the fund's winners to make up for the loss, even if they multiply in value.

So if ARKK is the bleeding edge of speculative tech, it could be possible the maximum returns will be somewhere lower on the risk spectrum - sort of like how junk bonds aren't always the highest yielding bond class.

VGT and VUG, for example, concentrate on mature and highly profitable tech companies. QQQ is tech-heavy but lets the market do the weighting, while being less vulnerable to any one or two companies blowing up. VBK has a good chance of catching the next great small cap growth stock that becomes a big cap. Any one of these has a lower ER - in some cases 10x lower - than ARKK's 0.75%. That's a lot to pay for a portfolio of only 30 stocks in an era of commission-free trading. Why not just click "buy" 30x and not pay so much for Cathie to click "buy" for you?

It probably makes sense to pivot into tech/growth within the first 6-9 months of a recession, which translates to right about the time a recession becomes apparent in the unemployment and GDP data. Stocks can, and often do, rise through a recession unless there is a cataclysm like the Great Depression, GFC, or 2000 stock meltdown going on.


Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinmckenna/2022/04/01/how-stocks-perform-before-during-and-after-recessions-may-surprise-you/?sh=2b2fef1f249d

*Yes, I am aware of how growth companies manage negative earnings to avoid tax liability, and I am aware of the value of R&D / marketing investments early in a company's trajectory, but to some extent that might not matter when the SHTF.

Right. So I think what you're saying is that.. the recovery will not just mirror the decline. The stocks that lead us up won't be the ones that have got crushed, at least not all of them.   Different sectors will be the place to be, and its quite possible that tech will be a lousy place to be for a longer time than anyone suspects.

I think that's a sensible logic - if everything just goes back to the way it was then nothing really has been fixed, has it?

The cycle tends to start with people only wanting to invest in bluechips and value orientated stocks, but as the recovery develops they become more speculative and start to go crazy on growth and hype stocks.  But that only really happens after the market has been crushed and there is a sea change in sentiment. I don't think we're at that stage yet - people need to believe that the hot plays of the last cycle are dead.

No idea on the timing of the recession tbh. This will be the most widely anticipated recession of all time if it happens, so I would expect it to also be the most front-run recession too.  From a personal point of view, the good lord willing, I have my regular savings going into the market over the next year and would not mind another year where I can accumulate cheaper stocks.

Painters Brush

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #140 on: March 03, 2023, 05:04:34 PM »
Do you really want this idiot managing your money?


She's a troll. No, seriously. She's trolling investors.

If you think those comments were crafted from the basis of research then you and I strongly disagree. She's married to her thesis and like the captain of the Titanic, she's not taking a lifeboat out.

With the proliferation of niche funds/ETFs I wonder how the compensation packages motivate the managers. It would be stupid to compensate someone for beating a dead horse but isn't Assets Under Management an import compensation factor?

The facts of a prospectus are more valuable than a fund manager's opinion. Her comments are now meaningless and quickly forgotten by some who continue to believe. We live in the age of trolls. Trolling works or they'd stop.

Any opinion of ARK should be based on outside analysis and history suggests a rebound(which will likely happen - might be a debatable point) will not likely be worth the wait.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #141 on: March 06, 2023, 03:02:10 PM »
Do you really want this idiot managing your money?


She's a troll. No, seriously. She's trolling investors.

If you think those comments were crafted from the basis of research then you and I strongly disagree. She's married to her thesis and like the captain of the Titanic, she's not taking a lifeboat out.

With the proliferation of niche funds/ETFs I wonder how the compensation packages motivate the managers. It would be stupid to compensate someone for beating a dead horse but isn't Assets Under Management an import compensation factor?

The facts of a prospectus are more valuable than a fund manager's opinion. Her comments are now meaningless and quickly forgotten by some who continue to believe. We live in the age of trolls. Trolling works or they'd stop.

Any opinion of ARK should be based on outside analysis and history suggests a rebound(which will likely happen - might be a debatable point) will not likely be worth the wait.
Are you a SARK investor?

Painters Brush

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Re: Any ARKK/ARKW ETF holders?
« Reply #142 on: March 09, 2023, 02:15:42 PM »
Do you really want this idiot managing your money?


She's a troll...

Are you a SARK investor?

No. I'm not an inverse investor. Kudos to those who make it work.