Author Topic: Stop worrying about the 4% rule  (Read 370895 times)

PizzaSteve

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1450 on: June 09, 2018, 01:01:21 PM »
I guess I will just have to use it as a rough guide but I find answers like "just go back to work" really frustrating as that is not what I want to be doing if I decide to retire early.

Work sucks overall and alot of folks on FI sites claim to love it, maybe they do but I have to say I don't fit into that at the moment.

Let's agree work sucks.

Your choices are:

1. work extra years now to save/invest beyond a reasonable 4%WR
2. stop at 4%WR and face a small risk you might have to do some part-time work later

Option 1 means a 100% chance of doing a bunch more of that work that sucks. Option 2 most likely won't happen. Personally that leads me to choose Option 2.
Good points made.  That said, work suckage is a relative thing.  Once its gone you appretiate some of its qualities, such as 1) adding productively to society, 2) opportunity and requirement to meet with and interact with people unlike you, you might otherwise meet (good to see and understand that people unlike you exist in society) and perhaps mentor/build relationships with them that are valuable, 3) direct opportunitiy to see and observe non mustacian people to create anecdotes for 'shame threads'....where will you get more material for `heard at work', if not working?, 4) earning money is a feel good thing that can be hard to say good bye too.

Anyway, just a thought that while some aspects of work can suck, we can also try to appretiate all the learning opportunities that work provides.  I have learned a lot from my sucky work experiences, how to be more mindful and in control of myself, deal with bad people, etc.   Many life experiences, including work, misfortune, illness, have plenty to learn from their challenges.  The easiest path is not always the best for our soul, so consider that some people will choose to work beyond 4% for multiple reasons, not just to never run out of sufficient funds.

A pretty obvious point, perhaps and maybe off topic.  Likely I will remove it later to keep the thread on the math and not the retirement psychology we will face on trigger day....still dealing with that myself.
All posts are opinions of the author subject to independent verification by the reader.  No representations of fact are asserted regarding commercial products or services.

DreamFIRE

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1451 on: June 09, 2018, 09:33:15 PM »
Good points made.  That said, work suckage is a relative thing.

I was tempted to reply earlier on that topic and about enjoying life.  I agree about working, and I actually like the majority of a given work week on my job.  But there was also a comment about FIREing and enjoying life.  People should be able to enjoy life while working as well, not hanging onto FIRE to finally enjoy life.

Quote
The easiest path is not always the best for our soul, so consider that some people will choose to work beyond 4% for multiple reasons, not just to never run out of sufficient funds.

Exactly.  But from the financial perspective, if someone's 4% is calculated on barebone just to pay the necessary expenses, then they better save extra for discretionary spending so that they're not "just getting by" in FIRE.

Jamese20

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 135
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1452 on: June 10, 2018, 03:33:45 AM »
I guess I will just have to use it as a rough guide but I find answers like "just go back to work" really frustrating as that is not what I want to be doing if I decide to retire early.

Work sucks overall and alot of folks on FI sites claim to love it, maybe they do but I have to say I don't fit into that at the moment.

Let's agree work sucks.

Your choices are:

1. work extra years now to save/invest beyond a reasonable 4%WR
2. stop at 4%WR and face a small risk you might have to do some part-time work later

Option 1 means a 100% chance of doing a bunch more of that work that sucks. Option 2 most likely won't happen. Personally that leads me to choose Option 2.
Good points made.  That said, work suckage is a relative thing.  Once its gone you appretiate some of its qualities, such as 1) adding productively to society, 2) opportunity and requirement to meet with and interact with people unlike you, you might otherwise meet (good to see and understand that people unlike you exist in society) and perhaps mentor/build relationships with them that are valuable, 3) direct opportunitiy to see and observe non mustacian people to create anecdotes for 'shame threads'....where will you get more material for `heard at work', if not working?, 4) earning money is a feel good thing that can be hard to say good bye too.

Anyway, just a thought that while some aspects of work can suck, we can also try to appretiate all the learning opportunities that work provides.  I have learned a lot from my sucky work experiences, how to be more mindful and in control of myself, deal with bad people, etc.   Many life experiences, including work, misfortune, illness, have plenty to learn from their challenges.  The easiest path is not always the best for our soul, so consider that some people will choose to work beyond 4% for multiple reasons, not just to never run out of sufficient funds.

A pretty obvious point, perhaps and maybe off topic.  Likely I will remove it later to keep the thread on the math and not the retirement psychology we will face on trigger day....still dealing with that myself.

I think the things you have posted mostly start to get realised when you actually dont need the money - until then, i think most would find it difficult in most circumstances to see the benefits.

after all, they wouldn't call it "work" if it was in reality, some really wonderful thing to do :) having said that I would probably start to feel that trigger day myself you are describing - I really do think work becomes so much more enjoyable when you do not need the money and until you get there, you never fully realise its benefits?

SwordGuy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4017
  • Location: Fayetteville, NC
    • Flipping Fayetteville
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1453 on: June 10, 2018, 08:41:01 AM »
But from the financial perspective, if someone's 4% is calculated on barebone just to pay the necessary expenses, then they better save extra for discretionary spending so that they're not "just getting by" in FIRE.

We calculated 2 numbers.

An FI number, which meant we could survive indefinitely without jobs. 

A FIRE number, which meant we could fund the life we choose to live indefinitely without jobs.

You can shed a lot of stress when you reach the first number, and shed your jobs without worry when you reach the second number. 

(Well, mathmatically without worry, but in reality, there may well be some worry, because we're people not calculators.)


maizeman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2366
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1454 on: June 10, 2018, 08:45:17 AM »
after all, they wouldn't call it "work" if it was in reality, some really wonderful thing to do :)

Extremely low effort post below:


Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1455 on: June 10, 2018, 05:32:22 PM »
Good points made.  That said, work suckage is a relative thing.  Once its gone you appretiate some of its qualities, such as 1) adding productively to society, 2) opportunity and requirement to meet with and interact with people unlike you, you might otherwise meet (good to see and understand that people unlike you exist in society) and perhaps mentor/build relationships with them that are valuable, 3) direct opportunitiy to see and observe non mustacian people to create anecdotes for 'shame threads'....where will you get more material for `heard at work', if not working?, 4) earning money is a feel good thing that can be hard to say good bye too.

Anyway, just a thought that while some aspects of work can suck, we can also try to appretiate all the learning opportunities that work provides.  I have learned a lot from my sucky work experiences, how to be more mindful and in control of myself, deal with bad people, etc.   Many life experiences, including work, misfortune, illness, have plenty to learn from their challenges.  The easiest path is not always the best for our soul, so consider that some people will choose to work beyond 4% for multiple reasons, not just to never run out of sufficient funds.

A pretty obvious point, perhaps and maybe off topic.  Likely I will remove it later to keep the thread on the math and not the retirement psychology we will face on trigger day....still dealing with that myself.

I wouldn't argue there were positives to some aspects of working. After 33yrs of work [in my case] if I haven't gotten the benefit/appreciation from them yet another decade chained to a desk isn't going to make that happen.  If I was one of these lucky bastards ERing after 5yrs at some magical software engineering gig maybe I'd feel I missed out.

Most of us have been programmed from nearly birth to work and power the economic engine of society. By the time you have saved up enough to hit a 4%WR you'll have done a lot of work. So my general advice is to get the hell out. From the perspective of someone who has always been working it's hard and scary to quite and see what you and your life are like without that career/job. It's always easier to stay chained to the desk. So people look for almost any rationale they can to OMY.

Reading these forums I don't come across any instances where I think "Boy this guy/gal is really going to suffer because they didn't work enough and get to enjoy enough of those work experience benefits."
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 05:39:10 PM by Retire-Canada »

PizzaSteve

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1456 on: June 10, 2018, 05:38:57 PM »
Good points made.  That said, work suckage is a relative thing.  Once its gone you appretiate some of its qualities, such as 1) adding productively to society, 2) opportunity and requirement to meet with and interact with people unlike you, you might otherwise meet (good to see and understand that people unlike you exist in society) and perhaps mentor/build relationships with them that are valuable, 3) direct opportunitiy to see and observe non mustacian people to create anecdotes for 'shame threads'....where will you get more material for `heard at work', if not working?, 4) earning money is a feel good thing that can be hard to say good bye too.

Anyway, just a thought that while some aspects of work can suck, we can also try to appretiate all the learning opportunities that work provides.  I have learned a lot from my sucky work experiences, how to be more mindful and in control of myself, deal with bad people, etc.   Many life experiences, including work, misfortune, illness, have plenty to learn from their challenges.  The easiest path is not always the best for our soul, so consider that some people will choose to work beyond 4% for multiple reasons, not just to never run out of sufficient funds.

A pretty obvious point, perhaps and maybe off topic.  Likely I will remove it later to keep the thread on the math and not the retirement psychology we will face on trigger day....still dealing with that myself.

I wouldn't argue there were positives to some aspects of working. After 33yrs of work [in my case] if I haven't gotten the benefit/appreciation from them yet another decade chained to a desk isn't going to make that happen.  If I was one of these lucky bastards ERing after 5yrs at some magical software engineering gig maybe I'd feel I missed out.
I agree that everyone's situation is unique. This is likely why I react when people post absolute statements like 'we can all agree work sucks, so we should all quite once we are FI.'  Many on here are teachers, MDs, police...they are helping society, and earning pay for it, not just acting as slaves chained to a desk...
All posts are opinions of the author subject to independent verification by the reader.  No representations of fact are asserted regarding commercial products or services.

Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1457 on: June 10, 2018, 05:42:01 PM »
I agree that everyone's situation is unique. This is likely why I react when people post absolute statements like 'we can all agree work sucks, so we should all quite once we are FI.'  Many on here are teachers, MDs, police...they are helping society not just chained to a desk...

Nobody is saying you or anyone else has to stop working if you don't want to. Retirement [at least in most cases] is voluntary. I would argue a doctor can be chained to a desk as a wage salve just like anyone else. The difference is his/her cage is just more nicely decorated. ;)

I would also argue a lot of people that don't stop working are staying the course not because it's amazing, but because stopping is scary as hell.

PizzaSteve

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1458 on: June 10, 2018, 06:07:00 PM »
I agree that everyone's situation is unique. This is likely why I react when people post absolute statements like 'we can all agree work sucks, so we should all quite once we are FI.'  Many on here are teachers, MDs, police...they are helping society not just chained to a desk...

Nobody is saying you or anyone else has to stop working if you don't want to. Retirement [at least in most cases] is voluntary. I would argue a doctor can be chained to a desk as a wage salve just like anyone else. The difference is his/her cage is just more nicely decorated. ;)

I would also argue a lot of people that don't stop working are staying the course not because it's amazing, but because stopping is scary as hell.
Well, I've both worked after being FI, and have chosen to retire.   So speaking from personal experience I can say that you are wrong in at least instance (my own).  I wasnt 'scared to retire.'  I had plenty of money, but had things to complete, work wise.

That said I woukd hesitate to try to speak for other people, as I cant reasonably speak for them as being 'scared' or not, without actually being them.
All posts are opinions of the author subject to independent verification by the reader.  No representations of fact are asserted regarding commercial products or services.

Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1459 on: June 10, 2018, 06:14:43 PM »
Well, I've both worked after being FI, and have chosen to retire.   So speaking from personal experience I can say that you are wrong in at least instance (my own).  I wasnt 'scared to retire.'  I had plenty of money, but had things to complete, work wise.

That said I woukd hesitate to try to speak for other people, as I cant reasonably speak for them as being 'scared' or not, without actually being them.



Agreed you can't speak for other people. Although I think it would be the rare high powered professional who would admit they were scared to stop working. If people were 100% honest with themselves and others....and able to work out accurately what is motivating their responses to major life events like FIRE psychiatrists/psychologists would be out of business. Luckily [for the psychiatrists] that's not the case.

I will say personally, as someone who is stoked about FIRE, the prospect of going through that massive life change is daunting and I am definitely scared/apprehensive, but that's just me. And I may be lying. ;)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 06:54:01 PM by Retire-Canada »

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1599
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1460 on: June 10, 2018, 07:51:54 PM »
I will say personally, as someone who is stoked about FIRE, the prospect of going through that massive life change is daunting and I am definitely scared/apprehensive, but that's just me. And I may be lying. ;)

Myself and my wife are spending a lot of time discussing the big change that FIRE will bring onto us. I wouldn't say I'm scared but I think it will be a big change and it's something that I'm at least nervous about.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 02:20:33 AM by steveo »

Exflyboy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5213
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Corvallis, Oregon
  • Expat Brit living in the New World..:)
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1461 on: June 11, 2018, 10:04:26 AM »
It is a big change without a doubt.. But it falls into the "good problem to have" category...:)

Malkynn

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 754
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1462 on: June 11, 2018, 10:20:45 AM »
It is a big change without a doubt.. But it falls into the "good problem to have" category...:)

My personal life motto right now is "a good problem to have is still a problem"
I'm up to my eyeballs in really good problems right now, and the stress can't be ignored or disregarded.

Awesome lives still come with a lot of challenges that realistically need to be anticipated and subsequently dealt with.

OurTown

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 767
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1463 on: June 14, 2018, 02:44:42 PM »
https://www.getrichslowly.org/four-percent-rule/

A few thoughts from J.D. Roth.  Enjoy.

Classical_Liberal

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 934
  • Age: 42
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1464 on: June 14, 2018, 03:25:23 PM »
https://www.getrichslowly.org/four-percent-rule/

From the article
Quote
Last October at Our Next Life, Tanja wrote that the fundamental problem with the 4% rule for early retirement isn’t the 4% rule. “The fundamental problem with any ‘safe’ withdrawal rate is the underlying assumption of level spending over time,” she said.

And you don’t have to be planning for dirtbag years followed by larger-living years, as we are, to be looking ahead to increasing costs in the future. You could be the most disciplined budgeter of all time and still need to plan for your spending to change over time.

The problem, Tanja says, is that many costs — especially costs for large expenses — can outpace inflation. Health care costs, for example, have been skyrocketing for years. So has the cost of higher education. Housing costs too have been increasing faster than inflation (and their historical average).

Meanwhile, Social Security and private pensions have not kept pace with inflation. (That’s one reason that, like many of you, I don’t even consider Social Security when calculating my retirement figures. Yes, I look at my projected benefits now and then. But to me, any future SS payments will be a bonus, not part of my actual calculations.)

False.  Assumptions not based in fact and without statistical support.  People spend less as they age

AdrianC

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 892
  • Location: Cincinnati
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1465 on: June 14, 2018, 05:38:03 PM »
False.  Assumptions not based in fact and without statistical support.  People spend less as they age

From the linked article:
This article examines the spending patterns of households with a reference person age 55 and older.

Be interesting, and more relevant, to see a study of the spending patterns of households with a reference person age 40 and older.

Anyway, expected increases in spending - like healthcare inflation - can be planned for and built into our number. That's what I did.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7176
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1466 on: June 14, 2018, 05:44:52 PM »
False.  Assumptions not based in fact and without statistical support.  People spend less as they age

From the linked article:
This article examines the spending patterns of households with a reference person age 55 and older.

Be interesting, and more relevant, to see a study of the spending patterns of households with a reference person age 40 and older.

Anyway, expected increases in spending - like healthcare inflation - can be planned for and built into our number. That's what I did.

In all actuality healthcare costs will start to be curbed over time. General services cant outpace inflation forever more players will enter tech will get more involved and people flat out won't continue to pay exorbitant rates. I have a much more optimistic out look on healthcare than most though.
My Miles Journal -Learn to Manufacture spend(MS)

Best bonuses on Credit cards right now
SW Plus Card 50k Bonus - use it with the Companion pass hack!

Personal Capital - Track your spending and Investing

pecunia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 278
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1467 on: June 16, 2018, 08:49:51 AM »
bored of 42:
Quote
In all actuality healthcare costs will start to be curbed over time. General services cant outpace inflation forever more players will enter tech will get more involved and people flat out won't continue to pay exorbitant rates. I have a much more optimistic out look on healthcare than most though.

Good point - I think that more people are becoming aware that they are being ripped off rather than just blindly paying the ferryman.  I think businesses are being aware that they are being ripped off.  I think insurance companies while ripping us off are becoming aware that they too are becoming ripped off.

Retire - Canada:

Quote
Most of us have been programmed from nearly birth to work and power the economic engine of society. By the time you have saved up enough to hit a 4%WR you'll have done a lot of work. So my general advice is to get the hell out. From the perspective of someone who has always been working it's hard and scary to quite and see what you and your life are like without that career/job. It's always easier to stay chained to the desk. So people look for almost any rationale they can to OMY.

I used to think that way until I learned about the 1 percent.  Some of my work goes towards Society and some goes to those guys and I don't like it.  They don't care about me so why should I care about keepin' on workin' and helping them.  I guess you are right.  The smart thing is to get out.

Hey - If I moved a few miles North to Ontario, could I get the health care?


Exflyboy

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5213
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Corvallis, Oregon
  • Expat Brit living in the New World..:)
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1468 on: June 16, 2018, 09:19:23 AM »
As time goes on I see more and more employers acting abusively towards their employees. Seems to me the faster you are done working for people who see you more as a commodity rather than a human being the better!

Once you are FI you don't HAVE to quit but having the option is priceless.

Virtus

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 215
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1469 on: June 16, 2018, 03:22:48 PM »
False.  Assumptions not based in fact and without statistical support.  People spend less as they age

From the linked article:
This article examines the spending patterns of households with a reference person age 55 and older.

Be interesting, and more relevant, to see a study of the spending patterns of households with a reference person age 40 and older.

Anyway, expected increases in spending - like healthcare inflation - can be planned for and built into our number. That's what I did.

In all actuality healthcare costs will start to be curbed over time. General services cant outpace inflation forever more players will enter tech will get more involved and people flat out won't continue to pay exorbitant rates. I have a much more optimistic out look on healthcare than most though.

Yah, that article seems to be a little light on research. It also commits a large logical fallacy by looking at a short-term trend and extrapolating it indefinably into the future. I am referring to the below section:

"...especially costs for large expenses — can outpace inflation. Health care costs, for example, have been skyrocketing for years. So has the cost of higher education."

Medical care cost inflation has been moderating and is around 2%. [1]

The inflation rate for the cost of college has been falling since 1982 and is now around 1.9%. [2]

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CPIMEDSL#0
[2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CUSR0000SEEB#0

Classical_Liberal

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 934
  • Age: 42
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1470 on: June 17, 2018, 12:39:10 AM »
False.  Assumptions not based in fact and without statistical support.  People spend less as they age

From the linked article:
This article examines the spending patterns of households with a reference person age 55 and older.

Be interesting, and more relevant, to see a study of the spending patterns of households with a reference person age 40 and older.

Anyway, expected increases in spending - like healthcare inflation - can be planned for and built into our number. That's what I did.

In all actuality healthcare costs will start to be curbed over time. General services cant outpace inflation forever more players will enter tech will get more involved and people flat out won't continue to pay exorbitant rates. I have a much more optimistic out look on healthcare than most though.

Yah, that article seems to be a little light on research. It also commits a large logical fallacy by looking at a short-term trend and extrapolating it indefinably into the future. I am referring to the below section:

"...especially costs for large expenses — can outpace inflation. Health care costs, for example, have been skyrocketing for years. So has the cost of higher education."

Medical care cost inflation has been moderating and is around 2%. [1]

The inflation rate for the cost of college has been falling since 1982 and is now around 1.9%. [2]

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CPIMEDSL#0
[2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CUSR0000SEEB#0

Right, I think over long periods of time we see mean reversions in these types of things. Unless, of course, there is a fundamental change; think industrial revolution.  If Healthcare keeps up it's current pace it will cost more than GDP relatively soon.  Obviously that can't happen.  Closed systems only have so many resources.  How cost increases start to drop is the only real question (ie will we just have less services?)

Think of it as investing, we will never see CAPE 100 (at least not for the long term), who'd pay a dollar to get 50 cents of earnings? 

pecunia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 278
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1471 on: June 18, 2018, 03:34:31 PM »
Classical_Liberal:
Quote
Right, I think over long periods of time we see mean reversions in these types of things. Unless, of course, there is a fundamental change; think industrial revolution.  If Healthcare keeps up it's current pace it will cost more than GDP relatively soon.  Obviously that can't happen.

There's already been a few times when I have self diagnosed minor ailments with the computer.  Trips to the doctor are expensive.  Can't we expect cost decreases with expert programming?  Doctors are looking for patterns and they use these patterns to make a diagnosis.  Seems like computers can do a lot of this.  Will the necessity of needed medical care be the mother of one or more new inventions?

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7176
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1472 on: June 19, 2018, 07:52:08 AM »
Classical_Liberal:
Quote
Right, I think over long periods of time we see mean reversions in these types of things. Unless, of course, there is a fundamental change; think industrial revolution.  If Healthcare keeps up it's current pace it will cost more than GDP relatively soon.  Obviously that can't happen.

There's already been a few times when I have self diagnosed minor ailments with the computer.  Trips to the doctor are expensive.  Can't we expect cost decreases with expert programming?  Doctors are looking for patterns and they use these patterns to make a diagnosis.  Seems like computers can do a lot of this.  Will the necessity of needed medical care be the mother of one or more new inventions?

they are already working on this.  cameras that can determine if moles need to be biopsied.  eventually that could just be an app on your phone take a picture tells you if it fits the pattern that would need a biopsy - doctors over precribe biopsies for fear of being wrong.  AI helps the medical industry and actually is more efficient than a doctor if symptoms are entered into a system in the not too distant future it should be much better than a doctor at diagnosis - esp. in fringe cases where a doctor may just not have the knowledge. a machine can have all the knowledge.
My Miles Journal -Learn to Manufacture spend(MS)

Best bonuses on Credit cards right now
SW Plus Card 50k Bonus - use it with the Companion pass hack!

Personal Capital - Track your spending and Investing

pecunia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 278
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1473 on: June 19, 2018, 08:10:18 AM »
Boarder42:
Quote
a machine can have all the knowledge.

You know a lot of us let things go too far before we see a doctor as they are expensive.  I could see a machine inexpensively checking you out more often, trending changes in your body and letting you know.  This would be great preventive medicine.

Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1474 on: June 19, 2018, 08:26:28 AM »
We are pretty far off the beaten track for the thread topic, but as a side note I've started using an e-doctor service here in BC. I just log in on my computer and usually within minutes I am video conferencing with a doctor and so far have been totally satisfied with the service. Saves me time and money. Saves the doctor time and money. I am more likely to see a doctor because the hassle is next to zero. So I stay on top of anything that's bothering me rather than waiting until it's a more serious issue. Overall this should be a significant savings to the health care system as it gets adopted more widely.

Canada is talking about various pharmacare/dental care programs where the government is the sole buyer and can negotiate amazing rates on drugs and services. Then it gets paid for with taxes and possibly income tested fees. I hope that goes through. It has the potential to save the country and massive massive amount of money and result in a much healthier population when nobody is choosing between rent/food and RX drugs/dental care.


boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7176
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1475 on: June 19, 2018, 09:24:36 AM »
We are pretty far off the beaten track for the thread topic, but as a side note I've started using an e-doctor service here in BC. I just log in on my computer and usually within minutes I am video conferencing with a doctor and so far have been totally satisfied with the service. Saves me time and money. Saves the doctor time and money. I am more likely to see a doctor because the hassle is next to zero. So I stay on top of anything that's bothering me rather than waiting until it's a more serious issue. Overall this should be a significant savings to the health care system as it gets adopted more widely.

Canada is talking about various pharmacare/dental care programs where the government is the sole buyer and can negotiate amazing rates on drugs and services. Then it gets paid for with taxes and possibly income tested fees. I hope that goes through. It has the potential to save the country and massive massive amount of money and result in a much healthier population when nobody is choosing between rent/food and RX drugs/dental care.

yep teladoc is now offered by my insurance company and our company encourages us to use it b/c it lowers costs taht they directly pass on to the rates we pay.
My Miles Journal -Learn to Manufacture spend(MS)

Best bonuses on Credit cards right now
SW Plus Card 50k Bonus - use it with the Companion pass hack!

Personal Capital - Track your spending and Investing

pecunia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 278
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1476 on: June 19, 2018, 07:44:04 PM »
Quote
We are pretty far off the beaten track for the thread topic,

Sure, but the cost of health care is one of the biggest worries stopping people from retirement.  This can upset the most carefully laid 3-4-5 percent fiduciary plan.  It is a major worry with the 4 percent rule.

Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1477 on: June 19, 2018, 07:48:06 PM »
Quote
We are pretty far off the beaten track for the thread topic,

Sure, but the cost of health care is one of the biggest worries stopping people from retirement.  This can upset the most carefully laid 3-4-5 percent fiduciary plan.  It is a major worry with the 4 percent rule.

Not really. It's a budgeting issue. The 4% Rule says if you take 4% inflation adjusted out of your initial stash historical data provides a success rate looking backwards to help assess your plan. The 4% Rule never considered the fact your budget estimate may be incorrect and you spend more than you planned.

pecunia

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 278
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1478 on: June 19, 2018, 07:54:30 PM »
Retire-Canada:
Quote
Not really. It's a budgeting issue.

Says he who has the better and cheaper health care.

Retire-Canada

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5718
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1479 on: June 19, 2018, 08:05:30 PM »
Says he who has the better and cheaper health care.

To be fair. I think if you have one of the better health care insurance plans in the US you get better health care. OTOH everyone in Canada has access to pretty good health care whether they have a lot of money or not. I prefer the latter system even if as a relatively wealthy person I could have better health care under the US system. I'm a one-for-all-and-all-for-one kinda person.

tooqk4u22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
Re: Stop worrying about the 4% rule
« Reply #1480 on: June 20, 2018, 09:33:21 AM »
Says he who has the better and cheaper health care.

To be fair. I think if you have one of the better health care insurance plans in the US you get better health care. OTOH everyone in Canada has access to pretty good health care whether they have a lot of money or not. I prefer the latter system even if as a relatively wealthy person I could have better health care under the US system. I'm a one-for-all-and-all-for-one kinda person.

You are both right in that it is a big concern for most FIRE people in the US AND it is a budgeting issue. 

The problem is that with ever increasing costs, potential changes to the political wills, higher deductibles, poorer access, and cliffs and scales for income it is really difficult to budget the RIGHT amount - it could range from nothing due to subsidies to next year being $25k for a family when factoring deductibles/coinsurance.  I guess the conservative thing is for everyone to budget $25k then to be safe.....boy oh boy that will shred a $40k a year expense budget.