Author Topic: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?  (Read 114064 times)

FrugalFukuoka

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #100 on: September 09, 2021, 06:09:07 PM »
I'm in at
99 shares ASTR @ 10.91
59 shares RKLB @ 16.43

Just got into RKLB yesterday when the market opened, got lucky there with my quickest 25%+ gain ever. Mostly cancelled out though by my losses on ASTR (that went sideways..literally).

BicycleB

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #101 on: September 09, 2021, 06:33:00 PM »
I'm in at
99 shares ASTR @ 10.91
59 shares RKLB @ 16.43

Just got into RKLB yesterday when the market opened, got lucky there with my quickest 25%+ gain ever. Mostly cancelled out though by my losses on ASTR (that went sideways..literally).

Hello, @FrugalFukuoka!

LOL sympathetically on ASTR. I experienced the sideways movement too.

Also, cool screen name. :)




Dancin'Dog

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #102 on: September 09, 2021, 08:12:08 PM »
I didn't get in on the RKLB blast off, but I did mention it to my penny stock gambler 84 y/o mom Wednesday morning before going to visit her for lunch.  When I arrived at her place she told be that she'd sold off something that hadn't been moving and picked up 1500 shares pf RKLB at $15.60  Needless to say, she's had a very happy couple of days. 

Herbert Derp, thanks for sharing RKLB with us. 

FrugalFukuoka

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #103 on: September 09, 2021, 09:54:16 PM »
I'm in at
99 shares ASTR @ 10.91
59 shares RKLB @ 16.43

Just got into RKLB yesterday when the market opened, got lucky there with my quickest 25%+ gain ever. Mostly cancelled out though by my losses on ASTR (that went sideways..literally).

Hello, @FrugalFukuoka!

LOL sympathetically on ASTR. I experienced the sideways movement too.

Also, cool screen name. :)

Thanks!

LOL, fingers crossed with that one. I am still hopeful however, as long as SpaceX isn't going public, I reckon small successes for ASTR will translate into worthwhile stock movements.

Radagast

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2021, 10:33:13 PM »
I traded in 1 share GME plus spare cash for 26 RKLB at 18.??. Worst buy posted yet, oh well. To the moon!!!...literally1!!!!!11

BicycleB

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #105 on: September 09, 2021, 11:54:13 PM »
I traded in 1 share GME plus spare cash for 26 RKLB at 18.??. Worst buy posted yet, oh well. To the moon!!!...literally1!!!!!11

Gamestop is by definition full of games, but at 250,000 miles to the moon, you're playing the long game now. :)

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #106 on: September 11, 2021, 02:32:20 PM »
Good news regarding Astra! Chris Kemp says that despite the recent launch failure, Astra anticipates no changes or delays to its launch schedule for the rest of the year, which consists of two launches.

They plan to make a statement next week explaining the root cause of the engine failure, and how they are going to fix it on their next rocket! Fantastic news!

Quote from: Chris Kemp
I believe that next week we're going to be providing a very detailed overview of the findings. We obviously do need to address an issue. I think what we'll be sharing next week is what that issue was, how we were able to definitely find that root cause, and the change that we are making to rocket seven so that we can ensure a successful flight. I have no updates as to any changes to our plans as a result of what we've learned, which I think is great news.

Chris Kemp mentioned this in a talk yesterday which I think is worth listening to:
https://event.webcasts.com/viewer/event.jsp?ei=1492693&tp_key=464473055e

The part where he talks about the findings from the launch failure is at 16:00. There is also a very interesting segment starting at 22:05 where he discusses Astra's plans to essentially turn the second stage of their rocket into a satellite bus which incorporates Apollo Fusion's ion engine.

Typically, a rocket's second stage would consist of engines, fuel tanks, avionics and sensors, and a payload area. Astra's idea is to take all of the expensive avionics and sensors from the second stage and combine them with an Apollo Fusion engine to create a small spacecraft. This way, the second stage will just consist of some fuel tanks and engines which can separate from the "brains" of the second stage which becomes its own independent satellite.

This saves a lot of cost and weight, since in the past both the second stage and the satellite needed their own separate brains. Since the brainy part of the second stage is a satellite, the payload bay will no longer be needed, saving even more cost and weight. Instead, Astra's second stage satellite will become the platform which is sold to customers, who will no longer need to design and build their own satellites from scratch.

This makes a lot of sense, and is very similar to what Rocket Lab is doing with their "kick stage" and Photon satellite bus. Where Rocket Lab seems to differ, however, is they have designed the Photon satellite bus to be deployed as an independent payload rather than incorporating it completely into the second stage of Electron. In this way, Photon will be compatible with not just Electron, but Neutron as well, and even launch vehicles from other companies such as SpaceX. Someday, we might see a SpaceX Starship deploy a multitude of Photons!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 03:40:57 PM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2021, 07:59:14 PM »
Here is an interesting article which explains more about how the New Zealand Covid lockdown is delaying Rocket Lab's launches:
https://spacenews.com/pandemic-delaying-rocket-lab-launches/

Hopefully the lockdown will end soon!

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2021, 09:16:07 PM »
I wanted to take some time to discuss my thoughts on investing in the space industry. I am super enthusiastic about investing in space because simply put, space is huge. I mean, what's bigger than space? In any case, the space industry is projected to reach well over $1 trillion in annual revenue by the end of the decade. This is why I've chosen to invest a large amount of money into the space industry.

In my opinion, investing in space now is like investing in the Internet in 1997. However, there were issues with investing in the Internet in 1997. Investors understood the potential of the Internet back then, just as we do with space today. Unfortunately, investor enthusiasm at that time outstripped the maturity of the underlying technologies, which led to the Dot-com bubble of 2000. Also, most Internet companies at that time ended up going bankrupt, making it even harder for investors.

Space investors should be rightly concerned about investing into a bubble, although I don't think we have hit anywhere near the hype that was going on in the Dot-com bubble of 2000. If hype about space companies continues to increase despite a lack of actual revenue and actual real world results, I don't think investing is a good idea. It will be important to watch and see if companies like Rocket Lab and Astra grow their revenue like they plan to. But so far, so good. Rocket Lab's technology is real, and revenue growth seems to be on track. In the case of Astra, we'll have to wait and see.

Another key difference between the space industry of today and the Internet industry of 1997 is that space is hard. As I've mentioned before, to build a successful space company you need many years of R&D and tens to hundreds of millions of dollars of capital. Companies like Rocket Lab, Astra, Virgin Orbit, SpaceX, and Blue Origin have been at this for the better part of two decades. Only serious companies with serious products and real results have been able to make it this far.

The barrier to entry into the space industry of today is sky high compared to the barrier to entry into the Internet industry of 1997. Back then, founders could attract millions of dollars of investor capital with nothing more than a PowerPoint presentation. As a result, it was very difficult to distinguish the real Internet companies from the posers. Plus, the market was literally flooded with Internet companies, making it very hard to pick a winner even among the serious companies. This is not the case in the space industry of today, where the high barrier to entry has ensured that there are only a relative handful of much higher quality companies to invest in. All of these new space companies have to pass an intense gauntlet of R&D and effort to even participate in this arena, and investors can easily research these companies and vet them out. Furthermore, new competition is largely shut out due to the aforementioned high barrier to entry.

Once some of the existing space companies build platforms, it may lead to a new wave of space companies which can bypass most of the current barriers to entry to the industry. At this point, choosing the correct companies to invest in will become much more difficult--but it is always a safe bet to invest in the companies who own the platform!

In conclusion, this is why I think investing in the space industry is such a unique opportunity. The potential for the industry is enormous, and the barrier to entry means that it is much easier to pick the winners when the pool of companies to choose from is so small. Furthermore, there is such huge enthusiasm about space exploration in the general public, meaning that successful space companies are going to get a ton of attention compared to successful companies in other industries. If nothing else, excitement is guaranteed!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 12:01:49 AM by Herbert Derp »

maizefolk

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2021, 09:27:14 PM »
It's an interesting analogy between the internet and space.

However a less positive comparison between the two is that the internet was clearly going to be able to support a LOT of successful companies, because internet companies could do lots and lots of different things. Paypal, youtube, ebay, google, facebook, airbnb, reddit, lyft, flickr, expedia, and pets.com all operated in completely different markets even though they all are/were internet companies and some of them ended up owning each other.

Right now almost all the space are competing in the launch market. There may be room for 2-3 successful "platform builders" but I suspect there will be far fewer survivors from the current crop of space companies than there were from either the first or second generation of internet startups.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #110 on: September 12, 2021, 09:45:57 PM »
Yeah, I think that the barrier to entry is currently too high to support the kind of diversity of companies that we've seen in the Internet industry. The way I see things developing, the handful of space launch companies in operation today will consolidate into an even smaller handful of 2-3 companies who are able to build successful platforms in space. Once these platforms are mature, it will lead to a second wave of expansion in the space industry consisting of companies who are able to build on these platforms. As a result, the companies who own and control these 2-3 platforms will be able to cement their positions and become the largest and most successful companies in the entire industry. This mirrors what we've seen with large tech platform companies in the Internet industry. As an investor, my strategy is to invest in these space platform companies at the earliest possible point in order to maximize my profits.


Back in 1997, who could have predicted that Amazon would have become a dominant platform company in the Internet economy? The barrier to entry was too low back then, and there were simply too many companies to choose from. This time it’s different, and only a handful of companies have the opportunity to become the first big space platform.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 10:03:47 PM by Herbert Derp »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2021, 03:01:14 PM »
Space is a platform, just like the internet. While launch providers may be the most visible part of the space industry, they're not the only part. Just like web hosting is only a part of the internet.

There's a group planning to build a massive development here in Albuquerque to build satellites that would basically surveil the entire world in near real-time. In addition to building the satellites here and flying them out on aircraft to be launched elsewhere (perhaps our state's $250 million dollar boondoggle Spaceport America) the plan is to have a huge data center to store and analyze all that data. The implications of having something like Google Maps/Google Earth that is updated daily or hourly are staggering.

https://tgi-hq.com/

However, I've remained highly skeptical that anything would actually come of it. New Mexico has a history of attracting big job announcements that end up never materializing. And based on this story that just came out last week, it looks like I'll probably be proven right: https://www.bizjournals.com/albuquerque/news/2021/09/07/theia-group-inc-sued-for-300-million.html

Quote
the first phase of the development is estimated to encompass about 4.1 million square feet, making it larger than the One World Trade Center in New York City. And “at least” 1,000 workers would be needed for an assembly facility on site, Theia vice president James Reid Gorman said in a November 2020 interview.

One 2020 research report from real estate firm Colliers International says the project is estimated to cost between $8 billion and $10 billion to construct throughout a decade. When the project was announced in November 2020, Mayor Tim Keller said the city "almost thought it was too big to be true."

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2021, 04:43:30 PM »
Space is a platform, just like the internet. While launch providers may be the most visible part of the space industry, they're not the only part. Just like web hosting is only a part of the internet.

There's a group planning to build a massive development here in Albuquerque to build satellites that would basically surveil the entire world in near real-time. In addition to building the satellites here and flying them out on aircraft to be launched elsewhere (perhaps our state's $250 million dollar boondoggle Spaceport America) the plan is to have a huge data center to store and analyze all that data. The implications of having something like Google Maps/Google Earth that is updated daily or hourly are staggering.

There's actually a lot of companies doing this. Maxar, BlackSky, Planet, Albedo, Alba Orbital, Pixxel, Capella Space, etc. At least in the case of BlackSky, they are already using Rocket Lab components in their satellites.

I did some searching and couldn't find much info about these Theia Group guys. Certainty, whoever they are, they are not ready for a $10 billion construction project. If a company is going to be successful doing satellite imaging, it's probably one of the more established ones like Maxar, Planet, or BlackSky. I hope BlackSky does well, and that they continue to use Rocket Lab hardware in their satellites.

Speaking of space companies to keep an eye on, Maxar Technologies (MAXR) is definitely one to watch. They have a diverse portfolio of products centered on spacecraft and satellites. They are a clear leader in commercial satellite imaging--you may have seen some of their images capturing the US retreat from Afghanistan, which were broadly published. They have been selected by NASA to provide power and propulsion for the Lunar Gateway space station. They are also building a commercial space platform around the satellite bus they have developed, which puts them in competition with Rocket Lab and Astra who also want to build satellite bus platforms.

Some downsides to Maxar is that it has been around for a long time, and competitors like BlackSky portray it as a slow and inefficient Old Space company. Also, it has a massive amount of debt.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 07:55:58 PM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #113 on: September 14, 2021, 12:51:36 PM »
Thought this was interesting, RKLB was #8 trending on Reddit the last week:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RKLB/comments/po742o/rklb_8_trending_on_reddit_the_last_week/

The stock has huge meme potential!

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #114 on: September 19, 2021, 04:05:19 PM »
Bad news for Astra investors. The announcement regarding engine fixes that was supposed to happen this week did not occur. Very disappointing. Maybe next week?

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #115 on: September 20, 2021, 07:28:34 PM »
Some interesting articles on Rocket Lab:

https://news.yahoo.com/why-rocket-lab-best-space-143143494.html
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4455962-rocket-lab-rklb-stock-space-new-frontier

This is definitely a long term hold. As the second article points out, we have the better part of the decade to go before Rocket Lab really comes into itself. I think that the recent run-up in the stock price is premature, and I'm glad that the stock has pulled back. However, this run-up in the price really shows how excited investors are about the stock. If you thought this was a big bump in the price, just wait until Rocket Lab starts to show actual results rather than just make forward looking statements!

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #116 on: September 21, 2021, 04:53:58 PM »
In an interesting turn of events, it looks like Astra has purchased the rights to manufacture Firefly's Reaver engines in-house for their upcoming rockets:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/21/22670063/astra-firefly-reaver-rocket-engine-ip-agreement

You can look at this both positively and negatively. On one hand, this new engine should take Astra closer to realizing its goal of being able to send a 500kg payload to a 500km orbit. On the other hand, this seems like evidence that Astra's current in-house engine designs are such a developmental dead-end that they had to resort to using another company's engine design.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 04:55:32 PM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #117 on: September 25, 2021, 01:39:55 AM »
Rocket Lab just got handed $24MM of free money from the US Government for R&D work on Neutron:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLab/comments/puvnl5/rocket_lab_awarded_space_force_contract_for_upper/

This is apparently for “upper stage resiliency enhancements”. What other reason for upper stage resiliency would there be other than making the upper stage reusable? I can’t wait to learn more about Neutron!

markbike528CBX

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #118 on: September 25, 2021, 05:26:05 AM »
For those of who want to look deeper into technical issues or just want to rocket-geek.
Generally https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com

Neutron updates:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=53408.0

@Herbert Derp, there are other things than reusability. Space is hard, even without reusability.

From the thread above,
Quote
by TrevorMonty on 25 Sep, 2021 01:08

RL to receive $24m towards US development. I think its to improve in orbit capabilities ie restarts and endurance. Saves adding expensive kick stage.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1441536030176333826?s=19

edit
Rocketlab.  Board
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=82.0
« Last Edit: September 25, 2021, 05:34:50 AM by markbike528CBX »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #119 on: September 25, 2021, 09:34:15 PM »
Good point about the second stage resiliency. I think the speculations about second stage reusability are optimistic, but what rocket that looks like it was designed in the 2050’s isn’t fully reusable? Come on, Peter!

BobTheBuilder

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2021, 06:12:55 AM »
Really like your posts here and didn't know about the nasaspaceflight site until now, thank you!

160 Astra and a short put on Astra for Oct 15th, 10$ -> will probably be 260 Astra in 3 weeks :-D
300 RKLB and a bull call spread 20/25 Oct 15th

Will periodically sell puts to purchase more stock until I hit at least 10k. Yes I will take that risk.

This is one of those long-run opportunities. Hopefully we can look back on 2021 and pat our shoulders when the real hype starts with LUNA and MARS in the years to come.
Can't wait for the future :-)

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #121 on: September 26, 2021, 11:59:19 AM »
Personally, I'm very disappointed with Astra's lack of communication about the launch failure, even when Chris Kemp personally promised that there would be an announcement. Some people are suggesting that Astra's shift to Firefly's Reaver engine reeks of desperation.

So basically, Astra's launch failed because one of their engines failed. Chris Kemp then comes out and promises an update explaining how they will fix their engines. Then, complete silence from Astra. Instead, the only thing we hear is that Astra has licensed the IP of Firefly's Reaver engines--which by the way, also failed. It is very telling that Astra couldn't even license engines with a proven track record. Not very encouraging.

Also, one of Astra's key employees just left the company. Combined with the other misleading things I've heard from Astra, it is really testing my patience with the company. They had better get their act together, and soon. Astra is supposed to launch again in October--let's see if they come through.

In other news, Peter Beck gave an interesting interview with Sharesies that is available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_df95t1jc

Peter makes a lot of not so subtle digs against Astra in that interview, see if you can find all of them!

My favorite excerpt from that video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_df95t1jc&t=403s

Quote from: Peter Beck
Rocket Lab's an interesting company in the fact that we don't just build rockets. We're most well known for the Electron launch vehicle, but that was always intended to be the first product in the start. In fact, the very second Electron that we ever flew, the kick stage on that Electron had flat recesses in it for the express purpose of later on putting solar panels in to make that a satellite. From, very early on, we were thinking about building an end-to-end space company.

If you look at the space industry, the way to think about it is three pillars of value:
  • Launch, which is about a 10 billion dollar total addressable market
  • Satellites or space systems is about a 20 billion dollar total addressable market
  • Applications, or all the things that we use from space, that's about a 320 billion dollar total addressable market

You can see, if you can get yourself into that applications space in a very competitive way, then that's a great place to be. Whoever holds the key to space has tremendous ability to be very competitive in all those other areas. As a company, we do launch, we also build satellites, and ultimately we'll be moving into applications where we actually provide services from space.

My second and third favorite excerpts are Peter Beck's thoughts on Rocket Lab's competition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_df95t1jc&t=1526s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_df95t1jc&t=773s

Quote from: Peter Beck
It depends on what you want to call competition. We don't classify anything as competition unless they're actually delivering stuff to orbit. Until then, it's classified as emerging competition. Look, there's a lot of people in the small launch space that are trying. But for as long as I can remember, that has been the case. We've tracked 140 small launch startups since 2015. There's still 140 something small launch startups, but as of yet there's only been one, which is Virgin Orbit, that has made it to orbit other than Rocket Lab. I don't want to sound as arrogant as thinking that nobody else will make it, but I think there's a massive difference between trying to get there, getting there, and even a bigger difference between getting there and doing it reliably and regularly.

...

There's a lot of emerging or potential competitors in this market. There's a bunch of companies, even one that's gone public from the launch side of it. The reality is that the first private company to ever put a satellite into orbit was SpaceX, and the second private company to ever put a satellite into orbit was Rocket Lab. So, although there's a bunch of people trying, this is tough. This is a really, really tough thing to do. Even in the last few weeks, there's been two companies that have blown up rockets trying to get there. One company in particular has tried six times in a row and still hasn't gotten to orbit yet. So it is really, really hard. Getting your first rocket to orbit is hard. Getting your 10th or your 20th rocket to orbit is like hard squared--there needs to be like an exponential term on the hardness. It's very, very, very difficult.

So we're not as naïve to think that there aren't going to be competitors that come along in the future, but if you look at where we are and where everybody else is, there is quite a large gap. We continue to move out with new launch vehicles, reusability, satellites--there's a long tail here. As pure competitors go, I would say that we're in a really unique spot right now. From the spacecraft side as well, we offer a really unique offering.

What we're trying to do here is build an end-to-end space company, perhaps one of the first. We do see a lot of competitors trying to copy what we do. Other competitors are now trying to move into building spacecraft, but you've got to get your rocket working before you can build your spacecraft. Other competitors are now talking about building big rockets before they build their little rockets.

The thing for investors to look at in this industry is that this industry is tremendously exciting, and a lot of people promise a lot of stuff, but what investors should be looking for is execution. How many contracts are signed, how many payloads go to orbit, how many satellites work, those kinds of things. It is an industry that is very high profile and very exciting, but you have to filter through some of that to see who's delivering.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2021, 01:37:44 PM by Herbert Derp »

alcon835

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2021, 03:01:44 PM »
The hard part during this stage of things is to figure out whether to double and triple down or to bail out completely. Is ASTRA around the corner from a successful launch or are they a company that will fail and fail and fail until they finally disappear from history.

It's hard to know.

ASTR has been trading for almost exactly 1 year and it's currently at -6% for the year. If this bad news continues, this is probably a the high for awhile. If they launch something in October, this could be the all time low.

I'm planning to stick with ASTR a bit longer, but invest more heavily into other places. I didn't buy these stocks to see a meaningful return in 2021, I'm looking for a 10-year time horizon.

Still, I'll be keeping a close eye on these broken promises, launch failures, and agreements to use third-party rockets...

BobTheBuilder

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #123 on: September 27, 2021, 02:45:47 PM »
Good points regarding ASTRA. I think right now ROCKET LAB stands apart, too. Judging from other corporations that communicate well and those that don`t, it is usually like you would imagine: good communication = good business. The best thing about investing is IMHO, that you can make believability-weighted decisions. Astra seems higher risk, so a smaller position it is.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #124 on: September 27, 2021, 04:50:35 PM »
I would like to take some time to compare and contrast Rocket Lab and Astra's technical strategies for developing their rockets.

For the sake of this post, let's say that in order to be successful, both companies need a rocket which can lift 300kg to LEO at a cost of $2.5MM per launch.

Currently, Rocket Lab's Electron can lift 300kg to LEO but costs a hefty $5-6MM per launch. In comparison, Astra's Rocket 3.3 costs 2.5MM per launch but can only lift a paltry 50kg to LEO.

So as you can see, the two companies are starting from opposite ends of the problem. Rocket Lab designed a rocket which had the desired performance from the start, but is too expensive. For Rocket Lab to succeed, they need to find a way to drive down the cost of the Electron. They are doing this by optimizing their manufacturing process and increasing the amount of automation in their facility, as well as by pursuing a project to make the Electron's first stage reusable.

On the other hand, Astra designed a rocket which had the desired cost from the start, but the performance is not high enough. For Astra to succeed, they need to increase the performance of the Rocket series. They are doing this by pivoting from Rocket 3 to their upcoming Rocket 4 design, which should have higher performance. Rocket 4 will be significantly larger than Rocket 3 and use Firefly's higher-performance Reaver engines.

At first glance, both of these approaches seem to be perfectly reasonable ways of solving the same problem from opposite directions. But does one approach make more sense than the other? Let's dive in!

From an engineering perspective, I think Rocket Lab's approach is sound. Rocket Lab started with something that works, and is optimizing it to make it more cost efficient. This seems much less risky since after all, their rocket already has the desired performance characteristics. Rocket Lab will also be able to take most of what they've learned from making the Electron reusable and apply that to their next generation Neutron rocket. So not only does investing in reusability help Rocket Lab make the Electron more cost effective, but it also helps them to develop the very same technologies that they need for Neutron. Two birds with one stone!

Astra, on the other hand, started with something that costs less but lacks the desired performance characteristics--and not by a little, but by a huge margin. For Astra to reach their own stated goal of 500kg to LEO, they need to increase their performance by ten times. In order to match Electron's performance, they need to increase by six times. In order for them to achieve this, they basically have to redesign a brand new rocket! Sure, Astra will be able to apply much of what they've learned building Rocket 3 into building Rocket 4, but Rocket 4 is still a brand new rocket with different engines. This is a huge change--you can't just swap out the engines on a rocket and keep everything else the same. Plus, Astra needs to do all of this redesign and performance increase without increasing the cost of their rocket, which seems like quite a bit to ask for. If Astra upgrades their rocket to match Electron's performance, but it also ends up costing as much, then what did Astra truly achieve? So basically, Astra is starting with something that doesn't work but costs a certain amount, and then needs to redesign a brand new rocket which works but still costs the same as the rocket which doesn't work. From an engineering perspective, this development strategy seems fraught with risk.

Astra's technical strategy for cost efficiency also relies on reaching economies of scale by mass producing their rockets, which seems difficult to do if they are in the middle of rapidly iterating towards their performance goal. How can you set up a production line to mass produce a rocket when the design isn't even finalized? It seems that Astra will have to do a lot of iteration on prototypes before they can truly kick off mass production.

Anyway, what do you guys think about Rocket Lab vs Astra's technical approaches for developing rockets with the desired performance and cost? I think that Rocket Lab's approach is much more sound from an engineering perspective, while Astra's approach is very risky. When you build and iterate on something, you always want to start with something that works, and optimize it afterwards! Trying to optimize something which doesn't work to begin with is questionable, to put it lightly. Chris Kemp likes to criticize the Electron and its high-performance carbon fiber body as a Ferrari of rockets which is too expensive to be practical. But I think he's missing the key point--the Electron has the desired performance characteristics, while his Rocket 3 design does not. The already working Electron design can be optimized for cost--exactly how much is up for debate. But what isn't up for debate is that the Rocket 3 design is not performant, and won't be so until it is evolved into the new Rocket 4 design.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 03:11:47 PM by Herbert Derp »

AlanStache

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #125 on: September 28, 2021, 02:40:20 PM »
Agreed.

Premature optimization rarely works out.  Get it working first, then see how much better you need to make it (if at all) once it works you can identify where the bottle necks & fat are. 

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #126 on: October 03, 2021, 07:45:52 PM »
Institutional investors are starting to initiate coverage on Rocket Lab. They are very optimistic!

09/09/2021, Canaccord Genuity, Price Target: $30

09/30/2021, Stifel, Price Target: $22

09/13/2021, Cowen, Price Target: $18

09/17/2021, Deutsche Bank, Price Target: $18

In fact, I challenge anyone to find coverage on Rocket Lab's business outlook which isn't bullish. I haven't seen any. It is rare to see coverage this uniformly positive!

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #127 on: October 03, 2021, 08:06:55 PM »
In this interview with CNBC on Friday, Peter Beck said that Rocket Lab plans to build, launch, and operate its own satellite constellation! This follows in SpaceX's footsteps with their Starlink constellation. What kind of services do you think Rocket Lab will provide? How do you think the Rocket Lab stock price will react when the plans for the constellation are formally announced?

Quote from: Peter Beck
Ultimately, where we're trying to go is if you have your own rockets, you have your own ability to build satellites in an end-to-end space company, then ultimately you can start to deploy your own infrastructure in orbit through your own constellations.

Radagast

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #128 on: October 03, 2021, 11:21:14 PM »
Ok, the price target is what I paid.
...

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #129 on: October 04, 2021, 01:17:23 AM »
That’s the value of getting in early. Myself and some others in this thread started our positions in RKLB about six months ago, well before the stock started blasting off. If you wait until the stock starts taking off before you invest, you’ll probably get a bad deal. If you are interested in making this kind of speculative investment, your goal should be to build conviction early and invest early.

Also, I’d like to stress that investing in stocks like RKLB is not for the faint-hearted. This is a high-risk speculative investment. Personally, I would not be investing in RKLB unless I could afford to lose every penny and still be financially independent. Which by the way, isn’t possible. Even if RKLB goes to zero, I can recoup about 33% of my losses as a tax write-off. Your risk tolerance may vary.

All that being said, I don’t think it is too late to invest in Rocket Lab, and I still plan to buy more shares in the future—with money that I can afford to lose!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 11:52:53 AM by Herbert Derp »

alcon835

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #130 on: October 04, 2021, 07:21:48 AM »
To echo and add to what Herbert Derp said, most of us got in before the merger, which is where the real early gains were. And of course this is a brave new industry with lots and lots of potential pitfalls and plenty of politics to cause mayhem.

Still, I'm in RKLB and other space companies with the plan to hold and accumulate for the next 10 years. Today's price targets are way, way, way below what I hope RKLB to be worth in a decade!

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #131 on: October 04, 2021, 12:07:29 PM »
Bought some more RKLB on the dip today at 14.74! To the moon!

I think once New Zealand lifts their lockdown and Rocket Lab starts burning through its huge backlog of delayed launches, we’re really going to see some action on the share price. They have about seven rockets just sitting in the hanger ready to go—see this tweet from July!

Speaking of New Zealand, just today they announced that they are shifting gears on their lockdown strategy, and will begin lifting the lockdown and reopening the country soon:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-zealand-easing-covid-lockdown-admits-it-cannot-eradicate-delta-variant/ar-AAP85nl

This should be fantastic news for Rocket Lab, I wonder why the stock is down today?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 12:14:09 PM by Herbert Derp »

Radagast

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #132 on: October 04, 2021, 08:33:09 PM »
I am not a person who develops conviction easily, though I admire yours. I am actually entertained, not concerned. Somehow I ended up with a few hundred dollars which I regarded as entertainment money, and on a random day I decided Rocket Lab was more entertaining than Gamestop. That is a conviction I still have! Even so, I judge RKLB to have more speculative potential the GME at this point. Between those two I am solid in my holding. And if all else fails I have a strong anchoring bias! But, really, I should have exited and entered through limit orders. Also for that same reason an $18 target is good for me, because in practice that will be $18 +/- 50%, and that would allow me to sell at $27 with diligent limit orders if I wanted out.

BicycleB

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #133 on: October 04, 2021, 10:38:58 PM »
Speaking of price targets, ASTR at 7.78 is near its 52 week low. An Article on SeekingAlpha reports that B of A began covering ASTR but gave a bearish analysis, setting a price target of $9.

SeekingAlpha's contributor believes the negative coverage drove the dip in ASTR's price.

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3747930-astra-space-slips-after-bofa-starts-off-coverage-with-a-bearish-view

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #134 on: October 05, 2021, 03:29:56 PM »
Astra's been declining in share price since around September 27th, about a week before Bank of America initiated their coverage. Chris Kemp had promised an update on the engine failure by September 19th which never came.

Almost half of ASTR stock is owned by retail investors:
https://www.wallstreetzen.com/stocks/us/nasdaq/astr/ownership

In my opinion, the stock price is going down because investors are getting antsy about the continued radio silence from Astra regarding the engine failure. Especially retail investors, they are quick to dump stocks in these situations.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 03:34:13 PM by Herbert Derp »

joe189man

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #135 on: October 05, 2021, 04:09:41 PM »
PTF

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #136 on: October 05, 2021, 06:54:39 PM »
By the way, Spire Global (SPIR) just hit an all time low today. They are an interesting space company who operates one of the world's largest satellite constellations. Their satellites collect data on global weather patterns, shipping data, etc, which is then sold to customers for data analytics.

I'll have to do some more research to see if it is worth it to invest, at this price it seems like a steal!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 07:02:28 PM by Herbert Derp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #137 on: October 06, 2021, 07:16:04 AM »
By the way, Spire Global (SPIR) just hit an all time low today. They are an interesting space company who operates one of the world's largest satellite constellations. Their satellites collect data on global weather patterns, shipping data, etc, which is then sold to customers for data analytics.

I'll have to do some more research to see if it is worth it to invest, at this price it seems like a steal!
Space companies going public through SPACs is a crowded field this year.  Apparently they IPO'ed less than 2 months ago, and the stock only moved when they announced a partnership 2 weeks ago.  But that spike upwards was temporary.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/17/spire-global-space-company-spir-begins-nyse-trading-after-spac-merger.html

Are any of the other space SPACs better deals than Spire Global?  In a crowded field, you can pick and choose.

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #138 on: October 06, 2021, 05:17:32 PM »
Wow! Rocket Lab stock just shot up by over 22% today due to NASA announcing that Rocket Lab will be launching a solar sail mission:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rocket-lab-stock-surges-after-nasa-deal-to-launch-solar-sail-announced-11633554117

This appears to be a one-off mission and there is nothing special about it. Mainly, this is evidence about how sensitive the Rocket Lab share price is to even minor news. Just wait until there is some real news! The stock is ready to blast off!

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #139 on: October 07, 2021, 01:17:15 AM »
This just in, apparently Neutron is designed to be "nearly 100%" reusable:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RocketLab/comments/q2w0dk/neutron_will_be_nearly_100_reusable/

I wonder what that could mean? Do you think Neutron will turn out to be a mini-Starship like Terran R? Regardless of what design Rocket Lab ends up choosing, they have got to be considering Starship and Terran R since those will probably be some of Neutron's top competitors. Also, we already know that Blue Origin is pursuing second stage reuse for New Glenn. Rocket Lab needs to keep up with the times and pursue some form of second stage reuse!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 01:21:43 AM by Herbert Derp »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #140 on: October 12, 2021, 09:11:27 AM »
The update from Astra that we were waiting for has finally arrived:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/astra-explains-previous-failure-sets-october-date-for-next-launch-attempt/

Their next launch could be as early as October 27th. I am glad they finally explained everything, I just wish they had done it sooner!


alcon835

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #141 on: October 13, 2021, 07:11:35 AM »
It's about time! Don't make promises and then go radio silent....

I'm looking forward to seeing the next launch! Here's hoping the thing goes off without a hitch! As has been heavily discussed here, ASTRA has a long way to go before true viability, but a successful launch is badly needed.


BicycleB

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #142 on: October 14, 2021, 09:39:20 AM »
Rocket Lab bought Advanced Solutions Inc., a "Colorado-based software company focused on aerospace needs like simulating missions, testing components, and providing navigation." Deal "valued at $40 million."

Quotes are from Space Business, an industry newsletter by Tim Fernholz from Quartz. It's free. Here's a signup if anyone want it: https://qz.com/emails/space-business/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=space-business&utm_content=3a444ee5-2c3e-11ec-ae8d-165e1fbfded6

Article in Denver Business Journal:
https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2021/10/12/rocket-lab-asi-space-startup-acquisition-colorado.html
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 09:42:14 AM by BicycleB »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #143 on: October 14, 2021, 01:03:17 PM »
Yeah, I saw that. We still don't know why Rocket Lab bought Advanced Solutions, it would be interesting to hear what technology they were interested in and what's the plan to use it!

In other news, Astra just released this interesting interview with some of their key employees. They actually gave some very interesting insights into how Astra operates. It's worth a watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTsKF5E3YDI
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 01:07:00 PM by Herbert Derp »

lutorm

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #144 on: October 17, 2021, 11:47:02 PM »
Over on the private side, SpaceX valuation just hit $100 billon: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/08/elon-musks-spacex-valuation-100-billion.html. That's up 33% since February.

I just can't really get excited about these small sat launchers. Maybe there's a market there, but it won't be anything transformational. If SpaceX can really get Starship working, on the other hand, it will be a complete game changer for how we think of space exploration. However, I'm also not sure I understand the investors so eager to get stock in a company Elon's clearly indicated he's not taking public and that seems likely to keep plowing its profits into R&D forever.


AlanStache

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2021, 07:51:02 AM »
Over on the private side, SpaceX valuation just hit $100 billon: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/08/elon-musks-spacex-valuation-100-billion.html. That's up 33% since February.

I just can't really get excited about these small sat launchers. Maybe there's a market there, but it won't be anything transformational. If SpaceX can really get Starship working, on the other hand, it will be a complete game changer for how we think of space exploration. However, I'm also not sure I understand the investors so eager to get stock in a company Elon's clearly indicated he's not taking public and that seems likely to keep plowing its profits into R&D forever.

Private companies can pay dividends right, and I assume one could sell within the private market place?  Dividends would still have to be on a 10-30 year time horizon. 


Reynold

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #146 on: October 18, 2021, 02:20:51 PM »
If I were to invest in any alternative space company to SpaceX, it would be Rocketlab.  If SpaceX did not exist, I would put substantial money in, because they are likely to blow the doors off Blue Origin (or, as BO is sometimes called in the space forums, Below Orbit), Boeing, and ULA.  Virgin Orbit is not scalable, and Firefly and Astra are behind AND less well funded, though they are both likely to at least reach orbit. 

I would do it mostly to have an excuse to follow Rocketlab, though, not because I expect them to make a lot of money long term.  We have to assume that (1) the space industry grows a lot and (2) there are a lot of people who don't want to pay SpaceX for launch because they are competitors for them to have much of a market.  Lets assume that in a year or two, which is pretty fast, they have the Neutron developed as a F9 competitor rocket.  We also assume that the SpaceX Starship has been a failure, or at least no cheaper than a F9.  Rocketlab offers a launch for less than the F9.  SpaceX can just cut their price from ~60M down towards their marginal cost of a launch, which from their statements is probably around $20M.  This is nice from a viewpoint of reducing launch costs for everyone, but its hard to see how Rocketlab makes much money out of it.  The launch industry has also turned out to be fairly inelastic to date, so its not like halving the price doubles the launches.  Maybe that will change?

Or, say Rocketlab launches their own, rival internet space constellation, which has much larger revenue potential than the total launch business.  We'll assume they have costs near that of SpaceX, i.e. 1/3 or less what everyone else is paying for satellites.  They get a few $B in funding to build their own thousands of satellites and get them launched.  Again, they have to undercut SpaceX to get business, and by this time SpaceX has launched and amortized their constellation, they will have millions of subscribers for revenue flow, they can just price match, and nobody ends up making a ton of money. 

I love having all these new space companies coming along and making space interesting again, I just find it difficult to make a specific business case for any of them after SpaceX.  The one advantage I can see is that they may actually return money to shareholders, whereas I would not be surprised if SpaceX funnels all their revenues after Starship/Starlink development into putting people on Mars, which will be a huge money sink for decades.  Potentially worthwhile for humanity, but not making money for investors. 

AlanStache

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #147 on: October 18, 2021, 03:35:54 PM »
If I were to invest in any alternative space company to SpaceX, it would be Rocketlab.  If SpaceX did not exist, I would put substantial money in, because they are likely to blow the doors off Blue Origin (or, as BO is sometimes called in the space forums, Below Orbit), Boeing, and ULA.  Virgin Orbit is not scalable, and Firefly and Astra are behind AND less well funded, though they are both likely to at least reach orbit. 

I would do it mostly to have an excuse to follow Rocketlab, though, not because I expect them to make a lot of money long term.  We have to assume that (1) the space industry grows a lot and (2) there are a lot of people who don't want to pay SpaceX for launch because they are competitors for them to have much of a market.  Lets assume that in a year or two, which is pretty fast, they have the Neutron developed as a F9 competitor rocket.  We also assume that the SpaceX Starship has been a failure, or at least no cheaper than a F9.  Rocketlab offers a launch for less than the F9.  SpaceX can just cut their price from ~60M down towards their marginal cost of a launch, which from their statements is probably around $20M.  This is nice from a viewpoint of reducing launch costs for everyone, but its hard to see how Rocketlab makes much money out of it.  The launch industry has also turned out to be fairly inelastic to date, so its not like halving the price doubles the launches.  Maybe that will change?

Or, say Rocketlab launches their own, rival internet space constellation, which has much larger revenue potential than the total launch business.  We'll assume they have costs near that of SpaceX, i.e. 1/3 or less what everyone else is paying for satellites.  They get a few $B in funding to build their own thousands of satellites and get them launched.  Again, they have to undercut SpaceX to get business, and by this time SpaceX has launched and amortized their constellation, they will have millions of subscribers for revenue flow, they can just price match, and nobody ends up making a ton of money. 

I love having all these new space companies coming along and making space interesting again, I just find it difficult to make a specific business case for any of them after SpaceX.  The one advantage I can see is that they may actually return money to shareholders, whereas I would not be surprised if SpaceX funnels all their revenues after Starship/Starlink development into putting people on Mars, which will be a huge money sink for decades.  Potentially worthwhile for humanity, but not making money for investors.

For the smaller payloads I thought RL's advantage was always that you could the the orbit and launch date you wanted without having to ride share with SpaceX.  But how many people are willing to pay for that and by how much more I dont know but I would assume that is more limited market.

As you say SpaceX is going to put money into getting people to Mars (!!!!) so they may not want to reduce costs to much.  Also Rocket Lab gets the benefit of looking at what worked/did not work for SpaceX.  That is not to say RL has a business advantage now. 


maizefolk

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #148 on: October 18, 2021, 05:10:31 PM »
The launch industry has also turned out to be fairly inelastic to date, so its not like halving the price doubles the launches.  Maybe that will change?

I think the thing all the new launch companies (including spacex) are crossing their fingers for is that demand for launches is actually elastic, just with a significant time delay (it take a long time to build satellites).

At this point if it weren't for StarLink even SpaceX would be having trouble maintaining their launch cadence: there just aren't enough external customers to justify launching as often as they are logistically able to now.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 05:22:27 PM by maizefolk »

Herbert Derp

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Re: Rocket Lab (RKLB) - Finally a decent space company that we can invest in?
« Reply #149 on: October 18, 2021, 05:16:07 PM »
I think the thing all the new launch companies (including spacex) are crossing their fingers for is that demand for launches is actually elastic, just with a significance time delay (it take a long time to build satellites).

At this point if it weren't for StarLink even SpaceX would be having trouble maintaining their launch cadence: there just aren't enough external customers to justify launching as often as they are logistically able to now.

Another key point here is that Rocket Lab has acknowledged this issue. Many of their launches are delayed by months because it takes so long for the customer to get their payload ready. Turning Photon into a turnkey satellite bus platform will greatly simplify the effort needed by their customers to launch satellites on not just their rockets, but anyone's rockets. We've already seen this with Varda Space Industries' plan to launch customized Photons on Falcon 9 rockets.