Author Topic: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.  (Read 41230 times)

JLee

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #400 on: May 19, 2021, 03:48:41 PM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #401 on: May 19, 2021, 04:06:06 PM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Of course that is not a free market. How was that not apparent from my reply?

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #402 on: May 19, 2021, 04:20:05 PM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Of course that is not a free market. How was that not apparent from my reply?

Has anything approaching the type of free market that you advocate for existed in human history?

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #403 on: May 19, 2021, 04:43:53 PM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Of course that is not a free market. How was that not apparent from my reply?

Has anything approaching the type of free market that you advocate for existed in human history?

Perfectly free? No. It's a spectrum. But now this is a different topic. I am not even advocating for a world with no government, and never have.

You are arguing that the slave trade is an example of free-market economics. I say no, and its really far on the opposite end of the spectrum.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 04:47:39 PM by Simpleton »

JLee

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #404 on: May 19, 2021, 04:47:40 PM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Of course that is not a free market. How was that not apparent from my reply?

Has anything approaching the type of free market that you advocate for existed in human history?

Perfectly free? No. It's a spectrum. But now this is a different topic.

You are arguing that the slave trade is an example of free-market economics. I say no, and its really far on the opposite end of the spectrum.

To be clear, you are now stating that a free market has never existed.

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #405 on: May 19, 2021, 05:11:15 PM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Of course that is not a free market. How was that not apparent from my reply?

Has anything approaching the type of free market that you advocate for existed in human history?

Perfectly free? No. It's a spectrum. But now this is a different topic. I am not even advocating for a world with no government, and never have.

You are arguing that the slave trade is an example of free-market economics. I say no, and its really far on the opposite end of the spectrum.

By your definition then, nothing appears to be an example of free-market economics.  Dig deep enough and it will always be possible to find a scenario that will violate the rules you're working with - which define the free market holistically by incorporating a great many subjective non-market related variables.  That's why I was asking if anything even approaching a 'free market' had existed in human history.

Your response leads me to conclude that the concept becomes largely meaningless when applied this way.  Which makes me wonder exactly what someone who advocates for a 'free market' is really talking about.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #406 on: May 19, 2021, 09:30:23 PM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Workers today have a choice. They can work, for an agreed amount. Or they can not work and get nothing, but be obliged to do nothing.

Now a 'free market' can't cure all society's ills. It doesn't prevent, for example, a free market bargain for person A to hire person B to murder person C. In that sense, persons A and B have formed a 'free market agreement' but person C is not very happy about the bargain. That's not a failure of the free market as such, but it is justification for having laws which prevent murder.

Generally I think issues of money should be left wholly to the free market, so that those with greater work ethic and talent can derive greater reward, subject to rules around:
- Everyone having free education, shelter and healthcare
- Well, that's about it.

Politically a minimum wage is required because all parties support it. Personally I don't see a need so long as people have the right to free education, shelter and healthcare (call it universal basic services).

Anyway there are so many ways to use the gig economy to subvert the min wage, and as a libertarian, I'm fine with that. As long as you have the basic services I've outlined above, I don't see why anyone should be 'guaranteed' min wage. Of course, that doesn't compel you to work for less than min wage. The alternative is to not work, not get paid a cent and subsist on the universal basic services.

I would be interested to know why people object to my system, where everyone has a measure of basic dignity and comfort.

Telecaster

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #407 on: May 19, 2021, 09:34:16 PM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Oh FFS.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #408 on: May 19, 2021, 10:56:57 PM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Of course that is not a free market. How was that not apparent from my reply?

Has anything approaching the type of free market that you advocate for existed in human history?

Perfectly free? No. It's a spectrum. But now this is a different topic. I am not even advocating for a world with no government, and never have.

You are arguing that the slave trade is an example of free-market economics. I say no, and its really far on the opposite end of the spectrum.

By your definition then, nothing appears to be an example of free-market economics.  Dig deep enough and it will always be possible to find a scenario that will violate the rules you're working with - which define the free market holistically by incorporating a great many subjective non-market related variables.  That's why I was asking if anything even approaching a 'free market' had existed in human history.

Your response leads me to conclude that the concept becomes largely meaningless when applied this way.  Which makes me wonder exactly what someone who advocates for a 'free market' is really talking about.

You are a charlatan.

Slaves are not free.

You are intentionally complicating that fact to prove a point.

That is fucking disgusting morally.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #409 on: May 19, 2021, 11:02:49 PM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Oh FFS.

You are the asshole arguing that slavery is a free market. Black people probably disagree with you.

Fuck your position. Fuck you for insinuating I think the way you do. Fuck you for trying so desperately to conflate YOUR logic with MY position.

Again, Fuck you for deciding my pro-market ideals are pro-slavery. Fuck your asshole argument.


MOD NOTE: Please read forum rule #1
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 11:56:16 AM by arebelspy »

Telecaster

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #410 on: May 19, 2021, 11:05:57 PM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Oh FFS.

You are the asshole arguing that slavery is a free market. Black people probably disagree with you.

Fuck your position. Fuck you for insinuating I think the way you do. Fuck you for trying so desperately to conflate YOUR logic with MY position.

Again, Fuck you for deciding how I feel.

^ Always the gentleman.

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #411 on: May 19, 2021, 11:12:59 PM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Oh FFS.

You are the asshole arguing that slavery is a free market. Black people probably disagree with you.

Fuck your position. Fuck you for insinuating I think the way you do. Fuck you for trying so desperately to conflate YOUR logic with MY position.

Again, Fuck you for deciding how I feel.

^ Always the gentleman.

Please, tell me more about how you feel slavery is a free market.

What a bullshit argument. What a bullshit sideshow. What a bullshit distraction from actual policy discussion.

Please, this line of argument makes me respect your position so much more! Keep going, you are winning!


MOD NOTE: Please read forum rule #1
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 11:56:26 AM by arebelspy »

Telecaster

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #412 on: May 19, 2021, 11:15:54 PM »
Where did I call you a Nazi? Where did I say how you feel?   Where did I say anything you claim I said? 

But noted that you called me an asshole for saying absolutely nothing that you claim I said.  I bet you're a delight at parties. 

Simpleton

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #413 on: May 19, 2021, 11:20:49 PM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Of course that is not a free market. How was that not apparent from my reply?

Has anything approaching the type of free market that you advocate for existed in human history?

Perfectly free? No. It's a spectrum. But now this is a different topic. I am not even advocating for a world with no government, and never have.

You are arguing that the slave trade is an example of free-market economics. I say no, and its really far on the opposite end of the spectrum.

By your definition then, nothing appears to be an example of free-market economics.  Dig deep enough and it will always be possible to find a scenario that will violate the rules you're working with - which define the free market holistically by incorporating a great many subjective non-market related variables.  That's why I was asking if anything even approaching a 'free market' had existed in human history.

Your response leads me to conclude that the concept becomes largely meaningless when applied this way.  Which makes me wonder exactly what someone who advocates for a 'free market' is really talking about.

You are backpeddling hard here. In my mind I have won major points here.

I am not backpeddling at all. I am not and have never argued any point other than the fact that slavery is not a free market. All other insinuations are yours.

I stand by 100% of my posts, including the one about all markets being on a spectrum.

Slavery and the slave trade is not free-market. My "concept" is not meaningless.

I stand by all my prior posts. If you post anything which can be answered by positions I have taken prior, I will assume you are someone who is not seriously engaged in this discussion. Rest assured I will quote. This may seem unfair but I have taken particular care to actually read the positions of people I argue with, and not re-engage the same point repeatedly.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 11:28:36 PM by Simpleton »

Telecaster

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #414 on: May 19, 2021, 11:45:20 PM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Oh FFS.

You are the asshole arguing that slavery is a free market. Black people probably disagree with you.

Fuck your position. Fuck you for insinuating I think the way you do. Fuck you for trying so desperately to conflate YOUR logic with MY position.

Again, Fuck you for deciding my pro-market ideals are pro-slavery. Fuck your asshole argument.

I hate to interrupt a perfectly good rant, but I wasn't responding to you. 

So if you think my one comment means all that to you personally...more power to ya, I guess?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #415 on: May 19, 2021, 11:56:53 PM »
Perhaps instead of making snide remarks, answer my question of why, if we have universal basic services (I know you don't have that in America, but we have it in Australia), there should be any interference whatsoever in the employment market.

What do you care if the market says someone is worth 1c an hour and another person is worth $1 trillion per second, so long as everyone has shelter, warmth and food?

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #416 on: May 20, 2021, 04:52:01 AM »

Where do you stand on slavery?  Plenty of slave owners were freely exchanging money for slaves.  Only government imposed market limits ended up preventing the slave trade in the United States as the free market was very pro-slavery.    Seems like distortions of the free market are necessary and that striving for the freest possible market is a flawed approach.


"Free market, an unregulated system of economic exchange, in which taxes, quality controls, quotas, tariffs, and other forms of centralized economic interventions by government either do not exist or are minimal"


Sorry to bring this back up, but it took me awhile to find the issue with your premise.

You are declaring government regulation on free markets as the only solution for slavery. People, I believe, are taking issue with this because it is ultimately a misdirection when used as a proof for free market regulation as being a necessity. I will say that I agree that some free market regulation is a necessity, and that regulation of the slave trade as a free market regulation just shows that free markets can be regulated to the good - not that this is a requirement.

The government knows that a private citizen owning a nuclear weapon is a bad thing. So, a citizen having a nuclear weapon is illegal. A citizen buying or selling a nuclear weapon is illegal. It's not free market regulation that is stopping the owning of nuclear weapons, although it can be used to catch and stop people who buy them - it's not intrinsically a free market regulation that's making it illegal.

The reason I believe people (myself included) are having such a visceral reaction to this relation to the slave trade argument you are making is that ultimately, it is misdirecting the focus of the problem. Slave markets where people were bought and sold is abhorent and makes me want to gag. However, it's not the worst of the worst part of slavery. The worst of the worst part of slavery is that people kidnapped other people and forced them to work for them, endure inhumane treatments, raped them, etc. etc. This would have been just as abhorent if the people who kidnapped Africans and brought them over had then set up plantations and lived out lives doing exactly what the people they sold slaves to did.

The issue was that slavery is intrinsically evil. Tying it to a free market issue which is not in any way necessary to declare it intrinsically evil appears to be a deflection to the free market as if a regulation to something that is universally declared repugnant now (when free-market regulation was not even necessary in that manner to stop it) is using an emotional deflection, to me, just because slavery is universally reviled. I do not in any way believe you are meaning it like this, but it feels like a "Nazi deflection" of Nazis did this or believed this just to use the universally repugnant nature of slavery when it is not necessary or necessarily applicable to the free market. Again, just because people viewed kidnapping and forced labor as OK, the root of the problem was still that people were being kidnapped and weren't free - not the free market - which again, using your definition is about economic exchange. Even if you took a broader definition of economic exchange and said slavery makes slaves exchange the economy of their work to the slave owners and therefore it has applicability, this still does not take into account the beatings, torture, rape, etc. that has nothing to do with economic exchange. Forcing someone to do labor on your behalf for free is disgusting, but even that doesn't encompass the totality of American slavery and thus free markets as an issue is still not really the whole root of the problem.

All that to say, yes, free market restrictions were used somewhat against slave trade. Even then, though, they weren't the ending of it in America. Going back to the bolded point you made - it took the Civil War for that, and the Civil War didn't result in slave trade (the free market side of it) being abolished - it resulted in slavery itself being abolished.

All that to be said, yes, the free market could "allow" slavery. The free market can also be used to restrict and fight against things that are issues (thinking climate change and other things). Regulation of the free market is not a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that the analogy holds water, in my opinion.

pecunia

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #417 on: May 20, 2021, 05:53:53 AM »
"What do you care if the market says someone is worth 1c an hour and another person is worth $1 trillion per second, so long as everyone has shelter, warmth and food?"

Jeepers - Paying someone that little is kinda like slavery isn't it?  Maybe that was your point in this long slavery discussion.

"All that to be said, yes, the free market could "allow" slavery. The free market can also be used to restrict and fight against things that are issues (thinking climate change and other things). Regulation of the free market is not a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that the analogy holds water, in my opinion."

Yeh - I think this guy is right.  Markets are creations of people.  A market by itself has no morals.  It only reflects the morals of the folks running the market.  The US produces a lot of weapons and sells them to countries on the free market.  Last week it was announced a big sale to Israel which will probably use the weapons to go hunting Palestinians.  Last year they were selling to the Saudis that were hunting Yemen folk.  The market doesn't care.  You can be selling those weapons or snake oil medicine.

There's some people out there that have this idea that somehow markets are somehow a wholesome and good thing, nah.  That's just silly.  They are just a means of exchange.

Markets ain't gonna fix societal problems.  People gotta roll up their sleeves and do it.  You know like all those abolitionists in the mid 1800s.  It's like the health care thing in the US.  Don't depend on "market forces" to inject morality into the health care industry.

Side issue:  Some folks think markets are the most efficient way to allocate resources.  I don't think that idea is right either.  Markets do help produce innovation which is one of the best things about them.  They give incentives to get the goods out there and to produce better goods.

Maybe if the slavery thing was still around we would have genetically enhanced slaves, eh?





ender

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #418 on: May 20, 2021, 06:29:13 AM »
Honestly, this slavery conversation is basically a godwin's law situation in my mind and completely distracting from a far more interesting conversation.

There are far more interesting examples out there that are much more relevant since, assuming most folks are in the western world, slavery hasn't been part of our direct economic markets in many years.

EvenSteven

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #419 on: May 20, 2021, 07:36:16 AM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Workers today have a choice. They can work, for an agreed amount. Or they can not work and get nothing, but be obliged to do nothing.

Now a 'free market' can't cure all society's ills. It doesn't prevent, for example, a free market bargain for person A to hire person B to murder person C. In that sense, persons A and B have formed a 'free market agreement' but person C is not very happy about the bargain. That's not a failure of the free market as such, but it is justification for having laws which prevent murder.

Generally I think issues of money should be left wholly to the free market, so that those with greater work ethic and talent can derive greater reward, subject to rules around:
- Everyone having free education, shelter and healthcare
- Well, that's about it.

Politically a minimum wage is required because all parties support it. Personally I don't see a need so long as people have the right to free education, shelter and healthcare (call it universal basic services).

Anyway there are so many ways to use the gig economy to subvert the min wage, and as a libertarian, I'm fine with that. As long as you have the basic services I've outlined above, I don't see why anyone should be 'guaranteed' min wage. Of course, that doesn't compel you to work for less than min wage. The alternative is to not work, not get paid a cent and subsist on the universal basic services.

I would be interested to know why people object to my system, where everyone has a measure of basic dignity and comfort.

"Slavery" isn't a market at all. The slave trade, as practiced in the United States prior to 1865, was a free market. You could also have a hypothetical system for a slave trade that was not a free market. What makes a market "free" or "regulated" is the amount of government restrictions placed on the buyer and seller.

Whether a market is "free" or "regulated" has nothing to do with the morality of what is being bought and sold, and I don't know why people are turning it into one.

ETA: As a non-hypothetical example of non-free-market slavery, I think you could put China's treatment of the the Uyghur in that category.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 07:49:38 AM by EvenSteven »

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #420 on: May 20, 2021, 07:38:37 AM »
You are not answering the question.  Yes or no?

Of course that is not a free market. How was that not apparent from my reply?

Has anything approaching the type of free market that you advocate for existed in human history?

Perfectly free? No. It's a spectrum. But now this is a different topic. I am not even advocating for a world with no government, and never have.

You are arguing that the slave trade is an example of free-market economics. I say no, and its really far on the opposite end of the spectrum.

By your definition then, nothing appears to be an example of free-market economics.  Dig deep enough and it will always be possible to find a scenario that will violate the rules you're working with - which define the free market holistically by incorporating a great many subjective non-market related variables.  That's why I was asking if anything even approaching a 'free market' had existed in human history.

Your response leads me to conclude that the concept becomes largely meaningless when applied this way.  Which makes me wonder exactly what someone who advocates for a 'free market' is really talking about.

You are a charlatan.

I don't believe I've falsely claimed to have special knowledge or skill, but am willing to be proven wrong.  Or are you redefining this word to mean something else?  Or was this merely an personal insult?


Slaves are not free.

Agreed.  I've not once argued that they are.


You are intentionally complicating that fact to prove a point.

No, I don't believe I am.  In fact, in the post you replied to I didn't even mention slavery.  I was discussing the definition of 'free market' that you had just given . . . which argued that a market where a soldier can be freely hired is not a free market and that a market where museums that had purchased ancient artifacts is not free market.

From that holistic definition I am forced to conclude that effectively no market can be free.  For example:

- A guy buys some electronic parts, builds himself a radio, and then wants to sell it?  Uh-oh.  One of those electronic parts was made in a sweat shop in Asia.  The market stopped being free.
- A guy grows vegetables on his farm and wants to sell them?  Uh-oh.  That land used to belong to native peoples who were displaced.  The market stopped being free.
- A guy buys some old clothes second hand from the salvation army.  Uh-oh.  One of those pieces of clothing was made with Egyptian cotton . . . which was made by exploiting poor people in Egypt.  The market stopped being free.
- A guy buys a car and goes for a drive.  On the way he purchases some gas.  Uh-oh.  Some of that gas came from Saudi Arabia . . . which banned slavery in the '60s, but is still widely reported to have slaves.  Buying that gas supports therefore supports a state that abuses human rights.  Dammit.  The market stopped being free again.

By this method of defining it, 'free market' appears to be an impossible standard and thus a meaningless term.  This is what I was hoping you would expand upon in your reply.

EvenSteven

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #421 on: May 20, 2021, 07:45:30 AM »


From that holistic definition I am forced to conclude that effectively no market can be free. 



I'm glad to see you finally coming around to acceptance of my proof:

Quote
I think I can solve this whole kurfuffle. A "market" is a set of conditions under which something is bought and sold. If something is being bought and sold, it must have a price. If it has a price, then it is not free.

Therefore, a "free market" is a contradiction in terms, and cannot logically exist. Ipso facto, etcetera etcetera.

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #422 on: May 20, 2021, 08:07:40 AM »

Where do you stand on slavery?  Plenty of slave owners were freely exchanging money for slaves.  Only government imposed market limits ended up preventing the slave trade in the United States as the free market was very pro-slavery.    Seems like distortions of the free market are necessary and that striving for the freest possible market is a flawed approach.


"Free market, an unregulated system of economic exchange, in which taxes, quality controls, quotas, tariffs, and other forms of centralized economic interventions by government either do not exist or are minimal"


Sorry to bring this back up, but it took me awhile to find the issue with your premise.

You are declaring government regulation on free markets as the only solution for slavery.

Not quite.  I'm declaring that government regulation on free markets was the solution for slavery in the 1800s, and that to date it seems to have been the most effective way of preventing slavery.

If you look at countries where slavery still exists in great numbers ( India (8 million), China (3.86 million), Pakistan (3.19 million), North Korea (2.64 million), Nigeria (1.39 million), Indonesia (1.22 million), Democratic Republic of the Congo (1 million), Russia (794,000) and the Philippines (784,000) - https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims), it occurs when the ruling government refuses to intervene in the trade of slaves and allows the market to do what it wants.

People, I believe, are taking issue with this because it is ultimately a misdirection when used as a proof for free market regulation as being a necessity. I will say that I agree that some free market regulation is a necessity, and that regulation of the slave trade as a free market regulation just shows that free markets can be regulated to the good - not that this is a requirement.

Way back when this discussion started, that was indeed my original point - that all regulation of the free market is not necessarily bad/to be avoided and that some regulation is good.  Simpleton disagreed with this.

The government knows that a private citizen owning a nuclear weapon is a bad thing. So, a citizen having a nuclear weapon is illegal. A citizen buying or selling a nuclear weapon is illegal. It's not free market regulation that is stopping the owning of nuclear weapons, although it can be used to catch and stop people who buy them - it's not intrinsically a free market regulation that's making it illegal.

I don't follow this example.

Preventing the purchase and sale of a weapon is a clear regulation of the free market.  The regulation is in place because it greatly disincentives attempts to purchase or sell the prohibited weapon (people will get arrested).  This then alters the way the market would operate freely.


The reason I believe people (myself included) are having such a visceral reaction to this relation to the slave trade argument you are making is that ultimately, it is misdirecting the focus of the problem. Slave markets where people were bought and sold is abhorent and makes me want to gag. However, it's not the worst of the worst part of slavery. The worst of the worst part of slavery is that people kidnapped other people and forced them to work for them, endure inhumane treatments, raped them, etc. etc. This would have been just as abhorent if the people who kidnapped Africans and brought them over had then set up plantations and lived out lives doing exactly what the people they sold slaves to did.

The issue was that slavery is intrinsically evil. Tying it to a free market issue which is not in any way necessary to declare it intrinsically evil appears to be a deflection to the free market as if a regulation to something that is universally declared repugnant now (when free-market regulation was not even necessary in that manner to stop it) is using an emotional deflection, to me, just because slavery is universally reviled. I do not in any way believe you are meaning it like this, but it feels like a "Nazi deflection" of Nazis did this or believed this just to use the universally repugnant nature of slavery when it is not necessary or necessarily applicable to the free market. Again, just because people viewed kidnapping and forced labor as OK, the root of the problem was still that people were being kidnapped and weren't free - not the free market - which again, using your definition is about economic exchange. Even if you took a broader definition of economic exchange and said slavery makes slaves exchange the economy of their work to the slave owners and therefore it has applicability, this still does not take into account the beatings, torture, rape, etc. that has nothing to do with economic exchange. Forcing someone to do labor on your behalf for free is disgusting, but even that doesn't encompass the totality of American slavery and thus free markets as an issue is still not really the whole root of the problem.

Agreed - slavery is abhorrent and evil.  Agreed - those kidnapped and forced into slavery were not free.

But the definition of a free market makes no allowance for morality.  A free market isn't good or evil.  It's not judgmental.  It just allows trade of goods without restriction.  It is up to societies to decide upon and governments to impose moral decisions through policing and trade restrictions.

Someone who expects a free market to behave in a moral way seems to fundamentally misunderstand what the term 'free market' means.



All that to say, yes, free market restrictions were used somewhat against slave trade. Even then, though, they weren't the ending of it in America. Going back to the bolded point you made - it took the Civil War for that, and the Civil War didn't result in slave trade (the free market side of it) being abolished - it resulted in slavery itself being abolished.

All that to be said, yes, the free market could "allow" slavery. The free market can also be used to restrict and fight against things that are issues (thinking climate change and other things). Regulation of the free market is not a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that the analogy holds water, in my opinion.

If you trade rubber car tires on the open market, and I pass a law that says it's illegal to own rubber car tires because of the pollution they cause . . . your ability to continue your trade has been infringed upon by a government restriction to the market.

There isn't a line being drawn between preventing slavery and preventing slaves from being sold on the market.  Both interfere with the freedom of the market to do something that it would otherwise be allowed to do - which pretty clearly makes it government market interference.

jeromedawg

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #423 on: May 20, 2021, 08:30:49 AM »
I've gotten lost in this thread but as a skimmed through it, I started realizing ppl were conflating freedom with free. I'm thinking the slave trade example probably wasn't a good one to use...it's obviously inflamed some people :T

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #424 on: May 20, 2021, 08:45:38 AM »


From that holistic definition I am forced to conclude that effectively no market can be free. 



I'm glad to see you finally coming around to acceptance of my proof:

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I think I can solve this whole kurfuffle. A "market" is a set of conditions under which something is bought and sold. If something is being bought and sold, it must have a price. If it has a price, then it is not free.

Therefore, a "free market" is a contradiction in terms, and cannot logically exist. Ipso facto, etcetera etcetera.

I mostly agree with your conclusion, but not the logic you used to get there.  :P

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #425 on: May 20, 2021, 10:51:28 AM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Workers today have a choice. They can work, for an agreed amount. Or they can not work and get nothing, but be obliged to do nothing.

Now a 'free market' can't cure all society's ills. It doesn't prevent, for example, a free market bargain for person A to hire person B to murder person C. In that sense, persons A and B have formed a 'free market agreement' but person C is not very happy about the bargain. That's not a failure of the free market as such, but it is justification for having laws which prevent murder.

Generally I think issues of money should be left wholly to the free market, so that those with greater work ethic and talent can derive greater reward, subject to rules around:
- Everyone having free education, shelter and healthcare
- Well, that's about it.

Politically a minimum wage is required because all parties support it. Personally I don't see a need so long as people have the right to free education, shelter and healthcare (call it universal basic services).

Anyway there are so many ways to use the gig economy to subvert the min wage, and as a libertarian, I'm fine with that. As long as you have the basic services I've outlined above, I don't see why anyone should be 'guaranteed' min wage. Of course, that doesn't compel you to work for less than min wage. The alternative is to not work, not get paid a cent and subsist on the universal basic services.

I would be interested to know why people object to my system, where everyone has a measure of basic dignity and comfort.

"Slavery" isn't a market at all. The slave trade, as practiced in the United States prior to 1865, was a free market. You could also have a hypothetical system for a slave trade that was not a free market. What makes a market "free" or "regulated" is the amount of government restrictions placed on the buyer and seller.

Whether a market is "free" or "regulated" has nothing to do with the morality of what is being bought and sold, and I don't know why people are turning it into one.

ETA: As a non-hypothetical example of non-free-market slavery, I think you could put China's treatment of the the Uyghur in that category.

The slave trade was a free market amongst traders. Not amongst slaves. Slaves were considered a chattel.

Whereas an employer and employee relationship (or contractor and principal) has no chattel mixed in. Both parties are trading something (services).

So the analogy of an employment market falls apart at that basic level.

Still no one has answered my question of, if universal basic services are provided, why we should ever intervene in a labour market (including by setting a minimum wage).

To me, the simplest thing is to let people's abilities dictate their outcomes.

EvenSteven

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #426 on: May 20, 2021, 11:34:39 AM »
A free market is one where i'm not forced to do any work unless I want to receive payment which is mutually agreed.

Slavery is not a free market. The slave had to work. He couldn't say, "I don't want to be your slave, and in return you can not interfere with me, but you also don't have to pay me." The slave had no choice.

Workers today have a choice. They can work, for an agreed amount. Or they can not work and get nothing, but be obliged to do nothing.

Now a 'free market' can't cure all society's ills. It doesn't prevent, for example, a free market bargain for person A to hire person B to murder person C. In that sense, persons A and B have formed a 'free market agreement' but person C is not very happy about the bargain. That's not a failure of the free market as such, but it is justification for having laws which prevent murder.

Generally I think issues of money should be left wholly to the free market, so that those with greater work ethic and talent can derive greater reward, subject to rules around:
- Everyone having free education, shelter and healthcare
- Well, that's about it.

Politically a minimum wage is required because all parties support it. Personally I don't see a need so long as people have the right to free education, shelter and healthcare (call it universal basic services).

Anyway there are so many ways to use the gig economy to subvert the min wage, and as a libertarian, I'm fine with that. As long as you have the basic services I've outlined above, I don't see why anyone should be 'guaranteed' min wage. Of course, that doesn't compel you to work for less than min wage. The alternative is to not work, not get paid a cent and subsist on the universal basic services.

I would be interested to know why people object to my system, where everyone has a measure of basic dignity and comfort.

"Slavery" isn't a market at all. The slave trade, as practiced in the United States prior to 1865, was a free market. You could also have a hypothetical system for a slave trade that was not a free market. What makes a market "free" or "regulated" is the amount of government restrictions placed on the buyer and seller.

Whether a market is "free" or "regulated" has nothing to do with the morality of what is being bought and sold, and I don't know why people are turning it into one.

ETA: As a non-hypothetical example of non-free-market slavery, I think you could put China's treatment of the the Uyghur in that category.

The slave trade was a free market amongst traders. Not amongst slaves. Slaves were considered a chattel.

Whereas an employer and employee relationship (or contractor and principal) has no chattel mixed in. Both parties are trading something (services).

So the analogy of an employment market falls apart at that basic level.

Still no one has answered my question of, if universal basic services are provided, why we should ever intervene in a labour market (including by setting a minimum wage).

To me, the simplest thing is to let people's abilities dictate their outcomes.

Sure, just like the computer chip market is free amongst traders, but not amongst computer chips. The slaves were not market participants, they couldn't just be like, "well, I'd quite rather not prefer to be sold for $400 to that gentleman with the whip, instead I'll be sold for $500 dollars to that fair looking woman in the buggy." Because they were, ya know, slaves.

Let's go at it from this direction: which government regulations in the US in the early 1800s made the slave trade a regulated market rather than a free market?

pecunia

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #427 on: May 20, 2021, 11:47:05 AM »
This is the only law I remember.  It was a long time ago after all:

The Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves of 1807 (2 Stat. 426, enacted March 2, 1807) is a United States federal law that provided that no new slaves were permitted to be imported into the United States. It took effect on January 1, 1808, the earliest date permitted by the United States Constitution.

This meant the US only had a domestic supply.  If slavery were still around today, some folks might call that protectionism.


EvenSteven

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #428 on: May 20, 2021, 11:59:03 AM »
This is the only law I remember.  It was a long time ago after all:

The Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves of 1807 (2 Stat. 426, enacted March 2, 1807) is a United States federal law that provided that no new slaves were permitted to be imported into the United States. It took effect on January 1, 1808, the earliest date permitted by the United States Constitution.

This meant the US only had a domestic supply.  If slavery were still around today, some folks might call that protectionism.

Thank you! This is the first example of a government regulation that would have an impact on whether or not the slave trade was a free market or a regulated market. In light of this law, I would say that the international slave trade was not a free market, and the US domestic market was a free market.

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #429 on: May 20, 2021, 12:34:17 PM »
This is the only law I remember.  It was a long time ago after all:

The Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves of 1807 (2 Stat. 426, enacted March 2, 1807) is a United States federal law that provided that no new slaves were permitted to be imported into the United States. It took effect on January 1, 1808, the earliest date permitted by the United States Constitution.

This meant the US only had a domestic supply.  If slavery were still around today, some folks might call that protectionism.

Thank you! This is the first example of a government regulation that would have an impact on whether or not the slave trade was a free market or a regulated market. In light of this law, I would say that the international slave trade was not a free market, and the US domestic market was a free market.

That's interesting!  I didn't know that there were already market controls on the slave trade before the civil war.  Wikipedia says that the act was commonly circumvented and poorly enforced unfortunately (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_Prohibiting_Importation_of_Slaves#Effectiveness_and_prosecutions_for_slaving).

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The act outlawing the slave trade in 1808 furnished another source of demand for fast vessels, and for another half century ships continued to be fitted out and financed in this trade by many a respectable citizen in the majority of American ports. Newspapers of the fifties contain occasional references to the number of ships sailing from the various cities in this traffic. One account stated that as late as 1859 there were seven slavers regularly fitted out in New York, and many more in all the larger ports.

Telecaster

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #430 on: May 20, 2021, 03:12:32 PM »
This is the only law I remember.  It was a long time ago after all:

The Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves of 1807 (2 Stat. 426, enacted March 2, 1807) is a United States federal law that provided that no new slaves were permitted to be imported into the United States. It took effect on January 1, 1808, the earliest date permitted by the United States Constitution.

This meant the US only had a domestic supply.  If slavery were still around today, some folks might call that protectionism.

If I'm not mistaken, the Confederacy had the same rule.  However the Confederacy guaranteed slave transport between the slave states.  In other words, the Confederate states couldn't regulate movement of slaves across their borders.   

pecunia

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #431 on: May 20, 2021, 06:17:44 PM »
If slavery were legal today, would it be a paying proposition?  There are rules and regulations for humane treatment of animals.  I don't think slaves would be exempted.  This would mean decent lodging, food and health care would need to be provided to avoid penalties.  Hiring a minimum wage employee would avoid those expenses and there would be no acquisition and disposal costs. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #432 on: May 20, 2021, 07:11:28 PM »
If slavery were legal today, would it be a paying proposition?  There are rules and regulations for humane treatment of animals.  I don't think slaves would be exempted.  This would mean decent lodging, food and health care would need to be provided to avoid penalties.  Hiring a minimum wage employee would avoid those expenses and there would be no acquisition and disposal costs.

Given the number of people currently in slavery, it does still seem to be worth it to many.  India (8 million), China (3.86 million), Pakistan (3.19 million), North Korea (2.64 million), Nigeria (1.39 million), Indonesia (1.22 million), Democratic Republic of the Congo (1 million), Russia (794,000) and the Philippines (784,000) - https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #433 on: May 20, 2021, 07:30:16 PM »
If slavery were legal today, would it be a paying proposition?  There are rules and regulations for humane treatment of animals.  I don't think slaves would be exempted.  This would mean decent lodging, food and health care would need to be provided to avoid penalties.  Hiring a minimum wage employee would avoid those expenses and there would be no acquisition and disposal costs.

By hiring a minimum wage employee I assume you mean engaging a contractor via a gig economy service.

Min wage at least here in Australia is way too high ($20/hour + payroll tax + superannuation of 10% + WorkCover insurance). Easier to just contract out and ask workers to supply their own materials and serve as contractors. This is why the gig economy has been so successful.


Radagast

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #434 on: May 20, 2021, 07:35:12 PM »
Commodities are not participants - this seems to be the part you're getting stuck on.
If they were not participants, what were they doing? Non-participation? Where did all the cotton come if the slaves were on strike?
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survived moved onto other free market activities. Guvmint also allowed the former slaves to enter the market, which they weren't previously a part of. That's why it was not a free market before the government interference, but it was a free(er) market after.

I agree, the end of the slave trade increased the number of participants in the market.  I disagree that additional government regulations and limits on what could be traded resulted in a 'free market'.  Please see the 'free market' definition given above.

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'Semantics' is the branch of knowledge concerning the meaning of words.  By definition, tax is not theft.  These words have different meanings.  By definition, slavery is not tax.  The meaning of words matters - and the use of poetic metaphor (as appears to be done with the two previous examples) is improper in a discussion aiming to convey precise meaning.

We are discussing the precise meaning of 'free market' in order to determine whether a 'free market' necessarily prevents slavery.
They have different meanings, but (involuntary) tax and theft both make a market unfree. The part that they have in common which causes an unfree market, they also have in common with slavery. Regardless of what you call it, it leads to the implication that slavery is also an unfree market.

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My intent isn't really to discuss cows, it's to point out the inherent problem with changing the meaning of 'free market' to include 'freedom of commodities sold in the market'.
I think you were really intending to imply that we call cattle a free market, but they share all the characteristics of slavery, and therefore we should call slavery a free market. The problem is that it works in reverse: what they have in common is lack of freedom. If you were being honest with yourself you would say that makes them both unfree. Instead you are getting hung up on meanings of words and trying to say that they are both free.
You previously made a similar attempt using transgender people. We say transgender people are participants in a free market but they do not appear as free as some other people, and therefore we should say slavery is a free market. No, the obvious connection they all have is lack of freedom. You should just come out and say that means slavery is not a free market, but you are stating the reverse.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 11:37:52 PM by Radagast »

Radagast

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #435 on: May 20, 2021, 07:43:44 PM »
The market was free, but individuals that were forced to be slaves were not participants, and they could not voluntarily produce or consume.

The government intervention didn't make the market more free by giving individuals agency and allowing them to begin to participate in the free market. It did make the market less free by taking away control of the labor supply from slave owners.

Remember - it is a very good thing that the government intervened, provided the protection of human rights to these individuals that had been slaves, and took away the freedom of businesses to treat individuals as slaved. This gave humans/individuals agency. It also absolutely was government intervention in the market.
Slaves were neither commodities nor consumers, they were producers. If they weren't participants, where did all the cotton entering the market come from? If they could not voluntarily produce or consume, how could they be free? If they made a huge contribution to the markets but were not free, how could they have been part of a free market?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 11:41:53 PM by Radagast »

EvenSteven

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #436 on: May 20, 2021, 07:56:37 PM »
The market was free, but individuals that were forced to be slaves were not participants, and they could not voluntarily produce or consume.

The government intervention didn't make the market more free by giving individuals agency and allowing them to begin to participate in the free market. It did make the market less free by taking away control of the labor supply from slave owners.

Remember - it is a very good thing that the government intervened, provided the protection of human rights to these individuals that had been slaves, and took away the freedom of businesses to treat individuals as slaved. This gave humans/individuals agency. It also absolutely was government intervention in the market.
Slaves were neither commodities nor consumers, they were producers. If they weren't participants, where did all the cotton entering the market come from? If they could not voluntarily produce or consume, how could they became free? If they made a huge contribution to the markets but were not free, how could they have been part of a free market?

And if a candy bar costs $1.99, how can there possibly be a free market for candy bars? A dollar ninety-nine ain't free!

Radagast

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #437 on: May 20, 2021, 08:11:07 PM »
The slave owners were restricting the participation of slaves in the market, not the government. We all agree this wasn't a good thing, but that doesn't change the fact that it was happening because of a lack of government intervention. And in fact, the whole country had to go to war in order to intervene with this behavior.
[It's purely a statement about government intervention in trade.
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"Free market, an unregulated system of economic exchange, in which taxes, quality controls, quotas, tariffs, and other forms of centralized economic interventions by government either do not exist or are minimal."
Hello neo von retorch and GuitarStv. What if it turned out that government regularly sent soldiers from military scouting companies to track down escaped slaves? What if government agents found and arrested people helping slaves escape? Suppose that a government made laws making it illegal to teach slaves reading and writing, because that might cause them to regard themselves as non-slaves. Let's say that a government sent the state militia and federal troops to put down slave rebellions. What if a group of slaves freed themselves and took over the ship upon which they had been enslaved, and the government sent the navy to kill them all because slaves cannot have freedom? Suppose that slave traders wanted to use slaves to farm a piece of land, and the government-sponsored militia cleared off the people who were already there for them. Take a case were one group of slave traders was jealous of slave traders from another country, and government sent the entire navy to kill the rivals.

You are saying that all of those actions are entirely compatible with a free market if they were done be private enterprise, but if the government did them, then suddenly the market would become unfree, because it was the government?

If the government actually did all those things, would mean that, by your definition, slavery was actually not a free market?

Radagast

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #438 on: May 20, 2021, 11:18:45 PM »
You appear to be using an unusual and non-standard definition of 'free-market'.  The one that I'm using is:
"Free market, an unregulated system of economic exchange, in which taxes, quality controls, quotas, tariffs, and other forms of centralized economic interventions by government either do not exist or are minimal"
Free market = no GOVERNMENT control of what the people controlling businesses and currency do; how they produce, who they sell to, how much they sell for, etc.
Hello again. I was hoping to win the argument that slavery is not a free market, because it was not a free market for the slaves. This argument goes like this: slavery was both manifestly unfree, and inextricably entwined with the market. Every aspect of a slave's life was unfree, including the economic aspect. However, the products slaves made were traded throughout the market, and this made the market unfree.

You seem to be discounting whether or not the market was free from the slaves perspective, so let's look at how free it was for the traders.

The slave trade started under the direct control of monarchs. It was a government enterprise, so not a free market by your definition. Then in transitioned to mercantilism, where government set the rules of every aspect of the trade, so still not a free market by your definition. By this point, tariffs derived from the trade of slaves and from the sale of products made by slaves were the largest and most important revenue streams to every empire or wannabe empire. Then, governments realized that freeing the slave traders would maximize tariff revenue. Of course the government was still heavily involved in suppressing rebellions and keeping out rival nations. Tariffs were not a minor inconvenience, they were the entire point of freeing the slave traders. So by your definition, slavery was still not a free market because of heavy government intervention and tariff revenue maximization.  So by your definition, the slave market was at no point anything approaching a free market. And then slavery ended (because governments realized that freeing the slaves would increase tariffs even further).

Slavery - not a free market from any perspective, including that of the slave traders, or by any definition, including the one you provided.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 11:45:12 PM by Radagast »

BicycleB

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #439 on: May 20, 2021, 11:45:10 PM »
To be a free market, the human beings involved need to participate freely. Enslaved human beings are by definition not free, yet without them, there cannot be a market in slaves. Therefore any slave market is by definition not free.

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #440 on: May 21, 2021, 02:55:29 AM »
Where do you stand on slavery?  Plenty of slave owners were freely exchanging money for slaves.  Only government imposed market limits ended up preventing the slave trade in the United States as the free market was very pro-slavery.    Seems like distortions of the free market are necessary and that striving for the freest possible market is a flawed approach.


"Free market, an unregulated system of economic exchange, in which taxes, quality controls, quotas, tariffs, and other forms of centralized economic interventions by government either do not exist or are minimal"


Sorry to bring this back up, but it took me awhile to find the issue with your premise.

You are declaring government regulation on free markets as the only solution for slavery.

Not quite.  I'm declaring that government regulation on free markets was the solution for slavery in the 1800s, and that to date it seems to have been the most effective way of preventing slavery.

If you look at countries where slavery still exists in great numbers ( India (8 million), China (3.86 million), Pakistan (3.19 million), North Korea (2.64 million), Nigeria (1.39 million), Indonesia (1.22 million), Democratic Republic of the Congo (1 million), Russia (794,000) and the Philippines (784,000) - https://reliefweb.int/report/world/which-countries-have-highest-rates-modern-slavery-and-most-victims), it occurs when the ruling government refuses to intervene in the trade of slaves and allows the market to do what it wants.


But it was not...and that's where I am confused. The North won the Civil War. It outlawed not just the free market part of slavery, if you will, the slave trade, the buying and selling of slaves. It simply did not allow people to even keep the people they had already kidnapped. It was made just as illegal for John Smith, owner of one slave, to keep the person he was de facto kidnapping as it was for a plantation owner to purchase someone who had been brought in from Africa. The slave trade is, in my opinion, clearly the "free market" aspect of slavery. That was banned, certainly, but the real ending of slavery came about when it was correctly defined that you couldn't have someone kidnapped indefinitely.

The government knows that a private citizen owning a nuclear weapon is a bad thing. So, a citizen having a nuclear weapon is illegal. A citizen buying or selling a nuclear weapon is illegal. It's not free market regulation that is stopping the owning of nuclear weapons, although it can be used to catch and stop people who buy them - it's not intrinsically a free market regulation that's making it illegal.
I don't follow this example.

Preventing the purchase and sale of a weapon is a clear regulation of the free market.  The regulation is in place because it greatly disincentives attempts to purchase or sell the prohibited weapon (people will get arrested).  This then alters the way the market would operate freely.


Absolutely - preventing the purchase and sale of nuclear weapons is a regulation of the free market and can be used to stop the "spread" of nuclear weapons. However, it doesn't have to be. Nuclear weapons are illegal, and if the government finds an email you wrote telling someone you have some nuclear weapons, they're going to come by, bust down your doors, and take them because the very act of owning them is illegal. My point is that, yes, you can regulate free markets to prevent this from happening (find out a sale is happening and stop it). You also can stop it by simply raiding someone who has a stockpile of them because the very act of having them is illegal. It would be silly, in my mind, to declare, oh, you're regulating free markets because you stop a sale of nuclear weapons when you would just as easily have had them taken had the government known about them and you were going to keep them in the basement just in case. One does not equal or require the other.


The reason I believe people (myself included) are having such a visceral reaction to this relation to the slave trade argument you are making is that ultimately, it is misdirecting the focus of the problem. Slave markets where people were bought and sold is abhorent and makes me want to gag. However, it's not the worst of the worst part of slavery. The worst of the worst part of slavery is that people kidnapped other people and forced them to work for them, endure inhumane treatments, raped them, etc. etc. This would have been just as abhorent if the people who kidnapped Africans and brought them over had then set up plantations and lived out lives doing exactly what the people they sold slaves to did.

The issue was that slavery is intrinsically evil. Tying it to a free market issue which is not in any way necessary to declare it intrinsically evil appears to be a deflection to the free market as if a regulation to something that is universally declared repugnant now (when free-market regulation was not even necessary in that manner to stop it) is using an emotional deflection, to me, just because slavery is universally reviled. I do not in any way believe you are meaning it like this, but it feels like a "Nazi deflection" of Nazis did this or believed this just to use the universally repugnant nature of slavery when it is not necessary or necessarily applicable to the free market. Again, just because people viewed kidnapping and forced labor as OK, the root of the problem was still that people were being kidnapped and weren't free - not the free market - which again, using your definition is about economic exchange. Even if you took a broader definition of economic exchange and said slavery makes slaves exchange the economy of their work to the slave owners and therefore it has applicability, this still does not take into account the beatings, torture, rape, etc. that has nothing to do with economic exchange. Forcing someone to do labor on your behalf for free is disgusting, but even that doesn't encompass the totality of American slavery and thus free markets as an issue is still not really the whole root of the problem.
Agreed - slavery is abhorrent and evil.  Agreed - those kidnapped and forced into slavery were not free.

But the definition of a free market makes no allowance for morality.  A free market isn't good or evil.  It's not judgmental.  It just allows trade of goods without restriction.  It is up to societies to decide upon and governments to impose moral decisions through policing and trade restrictions.

Someone who expects a free market to behave in a moral way seems to fundamentally misunderstand what the term 'free market' means.


I agree with what you're saying here. All I am saying is that we don't need the free market to solve the slave problem. We never needed it, and that is why it was a poor example. What we needed was for the existing laws on kidnapping to be enforced (assuming there were laws applicable, I am certainly no expert) or for laws to be written about not being able to kidnap or maintain a kidnapped person. That's literally all that was needed because the real issue was the kidnapping not the sale.


All that to say, yes, free market restrictions were used somewhat against slave trade. Even then, though, they weren't the ending of it in America. Going back to the bolded point you made - it took the Civil War for that, and the Civil War didn't result in slave trade (the free market side of it) being abolished - it resulted in slavery itself being abolished.

All that to be said, yes, the free market could "allow" slavery. The free market can also be used to restrict and fight against things that are issues (thinking climate change and other things). Regulation of the free market is not a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that the analogy holds water, in my opinion.
If you trade rubber car tires on the open market, and I pass a law that says it's illegal to own rubber car tires because of the pollution they cause . . . your ability to continue your trade has been infringed upon by a government restriction to the market.

There isn't a line being drawn between preventing slavery and preventing slaves from being sold on the market.  Both interfere with the freedom of the market to do something that it would otherwise be allowed to do - which pretty clearly makes it government market interference.

This is a good summation, and why I feel the free market being used here is kind of a red herring. I mean, yes, passing a law banning rubber tires or anything would technically restrict the free market on people who sold tires, but really, don't you see how that's a peripheral issue? The issue is the tire has been banned. I can't use it even on my own. To tack on that if you were selling it, it restricts you too, is true, but the restriction on the selling is a side note. I could say almost literally any law out there banning any crime could restrict "free trade," but it doesn't pass the smell test with me. Most everyone would agree that the government saying that something is illegal to have or to do or whatever doesn't mean it's a free trade restriction just because at some point, money could also come into it. It's the government banning something they feel is bad because it's bad, not because someone at some point could sell it.

Again, back to slavery. If every slave owner had gone out, kidnapped his own slave, and that was that......then it would still have been just as abhorent. The problem wasn't the free trade of slaves, and free trade restrictions didn't solve it. The problem was the kidnapping. Free trade restrictions helped to curtail it, but again, even at the end, the Civil war didn't just restrict them, and it ultimately wasn't free trade restrictions on buying of selling slaves that ended slavery. It was simply ending it.

Really, that's kind of my argument in a nutshell - neither is true - free trade of slaves was not the true problem, and free trade restrictions themselves didn't end slavery. I know you don't believe it was just the buying and selling of slaves that was the problem, and I don't see how you (if you did) came up with the conclusion that it was restricting of free markets that ultimately ended American slavery. Because neither of these is an accurate statement, I don't see how there's any real relation between the slavery and free trade is worth bringing up in regards to the regulation of free trade. There are so many other things that are actually about free trade and show the pros and cons of regulating it. Free trade tied to slavery is all a side issue.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 03:13:22 AM by Wolfpack Mustachian »

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #441 on: May 21, 2021, 07:37:09 AM »
I look away for a few days and the inflation thread turns into a discussion of fair trade slavery?


EvenSteven

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #442 on: May 21, 2021, 07:44:05 AM »
I look away for a few days and the inflation thread turns into a discussion of fair trade slavery?

Can you just imagine those South Carolina hippy slave owners, "Well, I only buy fair trade slaves."

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #443 on: May 21, 2021, 07:54:47 AM »
Commodities are not participants - this seems to be the part you're getting stuck on.
If they were not participants, what were they doing? Non-participation? Where did all the cotton come if the slaves were on strike?
Quote

They were 'participating' in the same way that any other animal classified as livestock 'participates' - or the way that any electronic device 'participates' - or the way that any electric or internal combustion engine 'participates'.  That is to say - they were not participating in the market for slavery (buying/selling of slaves) beyond being the commodity sold.


Quote
survived moved onto other free market activities. Guvmint also allowed the former slaves to enter the market, which they weren't previously a part of. That's why it was not a free market before the government interference, but it was a free(er) market after.

I agree, the end of the slave trade increased the number of participants in the market.  I disagree that additional government regulations and limits on what could be traded resulted in a 'free market'.  Please see the 'free market' definition given above.

Quote
'Semantics' is the branch of knowledge concerning the meaning of words.  By definition, tax is not theft.  These words have different meanings.  By definition, slavery is not tax.  The meaning of words matters - and the use of poetic metaphor (as appears to be done with the two previous examples) is improper in a discussion aiming to convey precise meaning.

We are discussing the precise meaning of 'free market' in order to determine whether a 'free market' necessarily prevents slavery.
They have different meanings, but (involuntary) tax and theft both make a market unfree. The part that they have in common which causes an unfree market, they also have in common with slavery. Regardless of what you call it, it leads to the implication that slavery is also an unfree market.

All tax is involuntary/compulsory.  That's part of the dictionary definition of the word:

Tax - a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions.

Tax is not (typically) theft:
Theft - the act or crime of stealing

Because governments define both property rights and the nature of crime, taxation cannot normally be defined as theft - the exception to this is in the case that the tax being levied by the government violates the rules defined by the government.  Certainly, slavery as it existed in the US in the 1800s could not be considered a tax.

I consider a tax that impacts the free market to be one that is applied when buying/selling in the market.  So a sales tax is a direct market limit on a good, but an income tax is not.  An importation tax (duties) is a direct market limit on a good, but property taxes are not.  While income/property taxes could theoretically have impact upon market value of something, I'd argue that this fits under the 'minimal' definition.

You appear to be arguing above that any government which has any form of tax will prevent a 'free market' from existing.  Which means that a free market has never existed, since taxation in some form or other is used by every government.  Is that a correct understanding of your position?  If you're arguing that a 'free market' has never and can never exist then the status of slavery and the 'free market' becomes an irrelevant question.  This would then appear to be the same line of reasoning that Simpleton was making.

So I'll pose to you the same question that I asked him:
Your response leads me to conclude that the concept of free market becomes largely meaningless when applied this way.  Which makes me wonder exactly what someone who advocates for a 'free market' is really talking about.  Why advocate for a system that can never exist?


Quote
My intent isn't really to discuss cows, it's to point out the inherent problem with changing the meaning of 'free market' to include 'freedom of commodities sold in the market'.
I think you were really intending to imply that we call cattle a free market, but they share all the characteristics of slavery, and therefore we should call slavery a free market. The problem is that it works in reverse: what they have in common is lack of freedom. If you were being honest with yourself you would say that makes them both unfree. Instead you are getting hung up on meanings of words and trying to say that they are both free.
You previously made a similar attempt using transgender people. We say transgender people are participants in a free market but they do not appear as free as some other people, and therefore we should say slavery is a free market. No, the obvious connection they all have is lack of freedom. You should just come out and say that means slavery is not a free market, but you are stating the reverse.

So your argument is that it's not possible for a free market to include the trade of any animal?  That does seem to be logically consistent with what you've previously written (adding an additional way to prevent a free market from ever existing).  It does not match with the definition of free market that I was using though:

Free Market - "Free market, an unregulated system of economic exchange, in which taxes, quality controls, quotas, tariffs, and other forms of centralized economic interventions by government either do not exist or are minimal"

There's no mention of 'freedom of chattel or livestock' in this definition, but it appears to be central to your argument here.

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #444 on: May 21, 2021, 08:19:41 AM »
The slave owners were restricting the participation of slaves in the market, not the government. We all agree this wasn't a good thing, but that doesn't change the fact that it was happening because of a lack of government intervention. And in fact, the whole country had to go to war in order to intervene with this behavior.
[It's purely a statement about government intervention in trade.
Quote
"Free market, an unregulated system of economic exchange, in which taxes, quality controls, quotas, tariffs, and other forms of centralized economic interventions by government either do not exist or are minimal."
Hello neo von retorch and GuitarStv. What if it turned out that government regularly sent soldiers from military scouting companies to track down escaped slaves? What if government agents found and arrested people helping slaves escape? Suppose that a government made laws making it illegal to teach slaves reading and writing, because that might cause them to regard themselves as non-slaves. Let's say that a government sent the state militia and federal troops to put down slave rebellions. What if a group of slaves freed themselves and took over the ship upon which they had been enslaved, and the government sent the navy to kill them all because slaves cannot have freedom? Suppose that slave traders wanted to use slaves to farm a piece of land, and the government-sponsored militia cleared off the people who were already there for them. Take a case were one group of slave traders was jealous of slave traders from another country, and government sent the entire navy to kill the rivals.

You are saying that all of those actions are entirely compatible with a free market if they were done be private enterprise, but if the government did them, then suddenly the market would become unfree, because it was the government?

If the government actually did all those things, would mean that, by your definition, slavery was actually not a free market?

This is an interesting tack to take in the discussion.  It's important to remember though, we're talking about a 'free market' in the economic sense not 'freedom' in a general sense. 

- The government finding/returning escaped slaves.  Did this happen enough and was this a significant impact upon the sale price of a slave on the free market?  It's certainly possible that it would increase confidence of slave owners that their property wouldn't be able to easily run away, which could have then translated into higher prices on the market.  Difficult to say precisely though.
- The government agents finding and arresting people helping slaves escape.  I don't believe that this would have any serious impact upon the price of a slave on the free market.
- The government putting down slave rebellions.  Again, I doubt that this would have significant impact upon the price of a slave on the free market . . . especially as despite this attempt, there were instances where slaves were able to escape to freedom (like the Creole case of 1841).
- The government making it illegal to teach slaves to read/write.  This is a form of government interference that would likely have little net impact upon the sale price of a slave.  Some people would see it as a benefit because their slaves would have more difficulty escaping, some would see it as a negative because their slaves would be less useful/capable.
- The government clearing people off from existing land in order to allow slave owners to use it.  This was common practice in the US, slave or no slave.  I'd argue that it was tertiary to the slave market and would have little impact.
- The government supporting one group of slave traders over another.  This seems to be a pretty clear case of market interference.


So no, I wouldn't argue that all of the actions are completely compatible with a free market . . . but most of those listed would have limited impact.  The most egregious one listed appears to be the support of one group of slave traders over another - this is clear market interference.  None of these actions appear to have been significant enough to have prevented the free market from ending slavery though.

I would argue that if any of them above were done by private enterprise, there would be zero interference with the free market - as that would be an example of private actors operating in a free market environment without government interference (the very definition of a free market).

EvenSteven

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #445 on: May 21, 2021, 08:30:15 AM »
[temporary suspension of silliness]

For those who are arguing that the slave trade was a regulated market instead of a free market, do you acknowledge a difference between the labor market of slaves, and the market of slave trading? It seems that there is much argumentation in favor of the labor market of slaves as no being free. I completely agree with this. All those government interventions that Radagast listed are all things that make the labor market of slaves to not be free.

None of them, however, directly relate to whether or not the slave trade market was free.

[/temporary suspension of silliness]

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #446 on: May 21, 2021, 08:36:01 AM »
To be a free market, the human beings involved need to participate freely. Enslaved human beings are by definition not free, yet without them, there cannot be a market in slaves. Therefore any slave market is by definition not free.

I believe that you are making a common mistake here - equating personal 'freedom' with the economic term 'free market'.

Free market - an unregulated system of economic exchange, in which taxes, quality controls, quotas, tariffs, and other forms of centralized economic interventions by government either do not exist or are minimal

By imposing a moral layer to the definition (all human beings involved in trade must be free) you are imposing a regulation that limits the freedom of the market.  But it also causes some confusing additional questions.

What exactly is freedom, and where do you draw the line?  Every person has limits imposed upon their freedom.  If you live in the United States you're not (usually) free to walk into the congress buildings and smear poop on the walls.  You're not free to travel somewhere else (this requires government documentation, application for various permits/visas, etc.)  You're not free to drive on the left side of the road, and treat red lights as green.  You're not free to pay someone for sex, or to ingest certain drugs.
 You aren't free to build a house on unoccupied land in the woods.  You aren't free to pull your kid out of school and fail to educate them.  Obviously none of these are comparable to the limits on freedom experienced by slaves . . . but my point is that there is no easy line that can be pointed to saying 'this person is free' and 'this person is not free'.  There is a gradient of freedom.

So exactly how free does someone need to be in order to participate in a free market?  Tricky question.  It's likely part of why the economic definition of free market doesn't usually include it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #447 on: May 21, 2021, 08:46:24 AM »
This is a good summation, and why I feel the free market being used here is kind of a red herring. I mean, yes, passing a law banning rubber tires or anything would technically restrict the free market on people who sold tires, but really, don't you see how that's a peripheral issue? The issue is the tire has been banned. I can't use it even on my own. To tack on that if you were selling it, it restricts you too, is true, but the restriction on the selling is a side note. I could say almost literally any law out there banning any crime could restrict "free trade," but it doesn't pass the smell test with me. Most everyone would agree that the government saying that something is illegal to have or to do or whatever doesn't mean it's a free trade restriction just because at some point, money could also come into it. It's the government banning something they feel is bad because it's bad, not because someone at some point could sell it.

Again, back to slavery. If every slave owner had gone out, kidnapped his own slave, and that was that......then it would still have been just as abhorent. The problem wasn't the free trade of slaves, and free trade restrictions didn't solve it. The problem was the kidnapping. Free trade restrictions helped to curtail it, but again, even at the end, the Civil war didn't just restrict them, and it ultimately wasn't free trade restrictions on buying of selling slaves that ended slavery. It was simply ending it.

Really, that's kind of my argument in a nutshell - neither is true - free trade of slaves was not the true problem, and free trade restrictions themselves didn't end slavery. I know you don't believe it was just the buying and selling of slaves that was the problem, and I don't see how you (if you did) came up with the conclusion that it was restricting of free markets that ultimately ended American slavery. Because neither of these is an accurate statement, I don't see how there's any real relation between the slavery and free trade is worth bringing up in regards to the regulation of free trade. There are so many other things that are actually about free trade and show the pros and cons of regulating it. Free trade tied to slavery is all a side issue.

This line of reasoning really made me think.  I believe that your point is that while banning ownership of something impacts the market for that item, it's not as direct an interference in the market as preventing trade of something.  Initially I was very much agreeing with you.

But the more I thought about it, the more something was bothering me.

Banning ownership of an item seems to be the most powerful anti-free market step that a government can take.  This makes it illegal not only to offer something for trade, and not only to buy it . . . but also to keep the item (if you already owned it).  It obliterates any chance of a free market existing for that item.  I cannot think of a stronger market interference that the government can make.

"Not only can you not buy or sell slaves, you can't even capture your own slaves.  You can't even keep the ones that you bred.  You can't even keep the ones that you had previously purchased.  This market is utterly ended in every way."

You're arguing that it doesn't directly use the market to end slavery.  I'd argue that it interferes with every aspect of the market to obliterate slavery in all forms.  But I respect your point of view, and understand if you disagree on that point (and think that the reasoning you've used is at least as valid as my own on this).

DiscoverJupiter

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #448 on: May 21, 2021, 04:22:04 PM »
I came here to read about inflation hedging strategies, expecting to see the common talk of commodities, low-interest loans for mortgages or other assets, precious metals, crypto metals, etc., but instead I have about 8.5 pages of non-inflation related chatter.

So naturally I registered an account to chime in!


There are two points I'd like to address:

1. The government's intervention in the slave market and whether the impact led to more market freedom

Yes, naturally as someone pointed out, the government's intervention placed a constraint on the market which reduced overall market freedom.  You can argue that the slaves were not free entities in the market and therefore were participating in an involuntary transaction (hence slavery), but the slave market was in fact defined as the contract between buyers and sellers of commodities just like any other commodity market (e.g., livestock).

2. What is the role of government in a society that promotes capitalism/free markets?

This answer is quite simple: the government exists to provide constraints on markets/society which prevent negative externalities of transactions.

From the slavery example, the government added a constraint to the market to prohibit the negative externality of involuntary transactions on the part of slaves.  Similarly, the government places constraints on the market for murder because the negative externality there is the death of an unwilling participant.  I think this system is appropriate.

What I do not think is appropriate is the government limiting voluntary transactions.  As such, I believe that minimum wage laws are garbage.  If people are willing to work for wages of $0.00 an hour, they should be able to!  They are choosing to work!  People say the "market sets prices" because in an open market if you have 1 employer and 100 qualified people, the person that will do the work for the lowest wage gets the job.  Conversely, if you have many people offering jobs but nobody wanting to work them, those offering will have to bid against each other to discover the lowest price they can pay which will attract the lowest price someone in the labor pool is willing to accept.  After they discover this price, they will have to continue to do price discovery to determine the price at which the second laborer is willing to accept.  If at any time the laborer's demands out-weight the value that the employer would derive from them, the employer will choose to not hire anyone and close shop (or find an alternative as in the case of the self checkouts mentioned earlier).

In fact, any single government that enacts a constraint on a market such as minimum wage can have profound effects.  Consider a country, A, which has no minimum wage, and country B which has a minimum wage of $1k/second.  Employers in country B have a massive incentive to redirect their capital into R&D of automation to replace their laborers as it will save them $1k/second.  Even if the initial cost is high, they can amortize the expense over a period of time to determine the long-run cost of the decision.  The result is a system that replaces their workers.  But that system was developed by someone, and that someone can now go to country A and sell it to them to replace their workers so long as the long run price of the purchase is lower than the expense of their human capital.  Now if a company in country A is paying $0.00 or $0.01 per year to workers, they won't be interested, but if the price of the automation is less than the price of the human capital, they will be interested!


... that brings us back to the inflation point, and hopefully away from this discussion about slavery markets.

What we have seen in the last year is massive government printing, and that money is being handed out to people to stay home.  In effect, the government is now (I consider unfairly, but that is my opinion) competing for "labor".  I say this because the "labor" the government requires is nothing, but I'm considering it labor because it's essentially adjusting the labor supply curve as people have a preference for leisure over labor.  To simplify things let's consider utility as a function of money and time, U(m, t).

So now that the government is competing for labor, businesses that pre-pandemic paid workers some amount of money that provides less utility to comparable workers than the utility they now derive from the government at the same wage levels must increase the amount of money they are offering people to entice them to come back to work.  Essentially they have to pay people more because they have to convince people that the work is worth more than leisure.  This leads to wage-push inflation: workers demand more pay for the same work, employers meet the demand or go out of business, workers now have more income for the same work and demand more goods, demand for goods rises while supply is constant (actually supply is constrained due to the pandemic so it's even worse), prices rise.

Conclusion: wage increases lead to inflation.  The effect is identical when you raise the minimum wage which is why I personally think that minimum wage laws are horrific.  They lead to fewer people being employed generally, and their inflationary effects are only mitigated by knocking people out of the workforce. 

At the same time as wage-push inflation, we also have demand-pull inflation, especially for yield-returning assets such as houses, stocks, etc. due to the historically low interest rates and crazy amounts of money being printed.  That is one of the reasons that housing prices have dramatically increased (also pandemic so nobody wanted to move [constrained supply] also pandemic so everyone wanted to move out of cities to houses for more space [increased demand]), and one of the reasons the stock market is up so high - people are dumping their excesses into stocks chasing yield.


Conditions which form my strategy regarding inflation:
- I missed the boat on housing prior to their run-up so I won't be taking out another mortgage to hedge against inflation.
- I think the US government is going to try to do everything possible to avoid increasing interest rates because that will naturally force more and more government budget into paying the interest on the insane national debt (MMT is dumb and I think its super dumb) and also a recession.
- I think that we'll never see someone with integrity again like Paul Volcker, and that makes me very sad.

My strategy:
- I dumped my entire bond holdings from the Total Bond Market which was largely if not entirely US based into an Emerging Market Bond.  The expense ratio is higher (.88 or something vs the low .0-something), but this does three things for me:
1. Protects against weakening dollar as now my currency is non-US
2. Protects against inflation in the US crushing fixed-income US Treasuries and other US-based government notes
3. Protects against US-based corporate bonds as, in the case where the government does raise interest rates, I think we'll hit a necessary deep recession and the probability of corporate bonds failing in that scenario is higher

- I also purchased a few hundred shares of TBT which is an ETF that shorts US treasuries and should pump if interest rates go up (and I don't think interest rates will diminish significantly or into negative territory) so I believe I have some downside protection.  At worst that money is stagnate, but it's a small portion of my overall portfolio.



One final thing I want to address that I saw come up previously, regarding CEO pay:
As was pointed out, by buying shares of a company you are implicitly supporting that company's policies.  You have voting rights. If you don't like the board or the CEO, vote to change it.  If you are passively investing in low cost, broad index funds, you are choosing to give up voting rights for a simplified, time-saving, diversified life with the best expected returns.  That is a voluntary transaction!

Personally, I think income tax is garbage, and I think that capital gains taxes on stock investments is ultra-garbage (all cap gains really).  If we didn't have capital gains taxes on stocks, you could much more freely "vote" with your money as you would be able to buy shares in companies and then move that money to other companies based on your personal preferences without having to worry about a tax penalty.  If you want to complain about anything, complain that Washington has placed market constraints on the free market which are having consequences of making the market less efficient.

Crony capitalism is a joke, and I hate it.  We need a consumption-based tax system only, as income taxes are completely unfair.  People working under the table never pay income taxes.  Income taxes reduce take-home pay which reduces investments and innovation.  Consumption taxes force you to pay for things you use!  And the government should ONLY be providing services that people use!  So you should pay based on what you use, which is in effect subsidized by all the people that want to consume far more than you, as it should be since public goods are public. Clown world.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Random thoughts and plans for the coming inflation.
« Reply #449 on: May 21, 2021, 04:57:34 PM »
This is a good summation, and why I feel the free market being used here is kind of a red herring. I mean, yes, passing a law banning rubber tires or anything would technically restrict the free market on people who sold tires, but really, don't you see how that's a peripheral issue? The issue is the tire has been banned. I can't use it even on my own. To tack on that if you were selling it, it restricts you too, is true, but the restriction on the selling is a side note. I could say almost literally any law out there banning any crime could restrict "free trade," but it doesn't pass the smell test with me. Most everyone would agree that the government saying that something is illegal to have or to do or whatever doesn't mean it's a free trade restriction just because at some point, money could also come into it. It's the government banning something they feel is bad because it's bad, not because someone at some point could sell it.

Again, back to slavery. If every slave owner had gone out, kidnapped his own slave, and that was that......then it would still have been just as abhorent. The problem wasn't the free trade of slaves, and free trade restrictions didn't solve it. The problem was the kidnapping. Free trade restrictions helped to curtail it, but again, even at the end, the Civil war didn't just restrict them, and it ultimately wasn't free trade restrictions on buying of selling slaves that ended slavery. It was simply ending it.

Really, that's kind of my argument in a nutshell - neither is true - free trade of slaves was not the true problem, and free trade restrictions themselves didn't end slavery. I know you don't believe it was just the buying and selling of slaves that was the problem, and I don't see how you (if you did) came up with the conclusion that it was restricting of free markets that ultimately ended American slavery. Because neither of these is an accurate statement, I don't see how there's any real relation between the slavery and free trade is worth bringing up in regards to the regulation of free trade. There are so many other things that are actually about free trade and show the pros and cons of regulating it. Free trade tied to slavery is all a side issue.

This line of reasoning really made me think.  I believe that your point is that while banning ownership of something impacts the market for that item, it's not as direct an interference in the market as preventing trade of something.  Initially I was very much agreeing with you.

But the more I thought about it, the more something was bothering me.

Banning ownership of an item seems to be the most powerful anti-free market step that a government can take.  This makes it illegal not only to offer something for trade, and not only to buy it . . . but also to keep the item (if you already owned it).  It obliterates any chance of a free market existing for that item.  I cannot think of a stronger market interference that the government can make.

"Not only can you not buy or sell slaves, you can't even capture your own slaves.  You can't even keep the ones that you bred.  You can't even keep the ones that you had previously purchased.  This market is utterly ended in every way."

You're arguing that it doesn't directly use the market to end slavery.  I'd argue that it interferes with every aspect of the market to obliterate slavery in all forms.  But I respect your point of view, and understand if you disagree on that point (and think that the reasoning you've used is at least as valid as my own on this).

Thanks! I can see now how you think the way you do, as well. It's been an interesting discussion.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!