Author Topic: Series I Bonds Question  (Read 116634 times)

Scandium

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Re: Series I Bonds Question
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2023, 12:04:46 PM »
I'm seeing 1.3% as the new fixed rate, for 5.27 combined rate.  I'll definitely be making the change for the $30k of my EF that is in Ibonds.  Will be a great place to hold my EF until I either use it, or don't need it anymore.

I saw that as well, and not quite sure what to do now frankly. I have 10k in 0% base IBonds, which I should redeem, and some I redeemed earlier. But the 5.27% rate is not very tempting considering the alternatives. 1.3% above inflation for 30 years is decent. But if (big if) the fed meet their goal and get back to 2% inflation in the next couple years, these bonds would only yield 3.3%. But the 10 year TIPS have a base rate of 2.4%, plus inflation. And 5 or 10 year treasuries around 4.8%, possibly going higher.
The nice thing is that you can cash out the I bond now and wait til almost the end of the month to decide without losing any potential I bond interest.

That said, TIPS look interesting - is the variable similar to what's on an I bond? If so, it's a no-brainer to go TIPS instead.

TIPS work a bit different. I'm not an expert, i've never owned any.
I believed they're adjusted using same CPI, but it's not continuous "%- yield" like the Ibond. It's applied to the face value/price of the bond (e.g. it goes up 3% if 3% inflation), and the yield (current 2.4%) is based on that.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tips.asp

If you hold to maturity I think the result would be the same as an Ibond with the same base rate. But I'm not 100% on that.. You can also re-sell your tips, so that would get complicated, but I don't plan on doing that.

The advantage of Ibonds as Radagast points out is you don't have to choose 5,10 or more year maturity like with TIPS. You get 30 and can jump out before. With TIPS there's a chance you'd loose value doing that. And once your TIPS mature you can't extend those high rates.

Interesting bogleheads discussion on TIPS volatility, if not held to maturity. Some lost ~50% of value in 12 months!
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=415657

Maybe we need a separate thread on how to best take advantage of these high rates, for longest.
10 year treasuries: 4.8%
10 year tips: 2.4% + inflation
I-bonds: 1.3% + inflation
??
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 12:16:14 PM by Scandium »

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Re: Series I Bonds Question
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2023, 12:47:01 PM »
I-bonds where a good idea when rates were zero and there was a significant risk of capital loss with TIPs or Treasuries. Now that rates are hovering around 5%, there is an opportunity for capital appreciation in TIPs and Treasuries and you are compensated a bit more for holding (at least if inflation heads back to around 2% where the fed is targeting). I am rotating 30k of I-bonds into short term 1-2 year treasuries/CDs right now and plan to move to intermediate term corporate bonds if we get into a recessionary situation. My thinking is the yield curve is still inverted, or at least not compensating you appropriately for duration risk. ST treasuries will appreciate modestly if rates are cut, but long term rates should stay around their current rates as a ST rate cut will result in a more typical graduated yield curve. Corporates, especially piciking and choosing in the BBB range, should become more attractive when the economy is strained compared to treasuries.

TLDR - stay in 1-2 yr liquid treasuries yielding 5.3%+. A ST rate cut from 5% to 2.5% will result in a 2-5% capital gain that can be redeployed in 5-10yr corporates yielding 7-9%.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Series I Bonds Question
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2023, 01:47:08 PM »
I-bonds where a good idea when rates were zero and there was a significant risk of capital loss with TIPs or Treasuries. Now that rates are hovering around 5%, there is an opportunity for capital appreciation in TIPs and Treasuries and you are compensated a bit more for holding (at least if inflation heads back to around 2% where the fed is targeting). I am rotating 30k of I-bonds into short term 1-2 year treasuries/CDs right now and plan to move to intermediate term corporate bonds if we get into a recessionary situation. My thinking is the yield curve is still inverted, or at least not compensating you appropriately for duration risk. ST treasuries will appreciate modestly if rates are cut, but long term rates should stay around their current rates as a ST rate cut will result in a more typical graduated yield curve. Corporates, especially piciking and choosing in the BBB range, should become more attractive when the economy is strained compared to treasuries.

TLDR - stay in 1-2 yr liquid treasuries yielding 5.3%+. A ST rate cut from 5% to 2.5% will result in a 2-5% capital gain that can be redeployed in 5-10yr corporates yielding 7-9%.
IDK, I think history says long term rates such as the 10y yield will reprice long before the recession is declared. For example:

The 10y yield fell 205bp from June 2007 until recession started in December 2007 (6mos).
The 10y yield fell 183bp from February 2000 until recession started in March 2001 (12mos).
The 10y yield fell 66bp from May 1990 until recession started in June 1990 (1mo).

Those drops occurred before anyone knew for sure that a recession was coming, and recessions aren't even announced by the NBER until at a minimum half a year has passed - sometimes longer. So my concern is by the time a recession is apparent, a lot of the gains in long-term bonds will have already occurred. If one's plan was to switch from short-term to long-term at that point when recession becomes apparent, one would miss out on the majority of the gains and end up underwater during the mid-recession bond slump / yield rally that occurred in each of those 3 previous recessions.

I think there are two games one could play if one knew a recession was on the way:
1) Long-term bonds until recession is being felt. Then go to short-term bonds for a few months. Then pivot to stocks.
2) Short-term bonds until at least a year after the start of recession. Then pivot to stocks.

I think either strategy historically works well, with the specifics of each recession dictating which approach would be optimal.

Scandium

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Re: Series I Bonds Question
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2023, 11:41:11 AM »

I think there are two games one could play if one knew a recession was on the way:
1) Long-term bonds until recession is being felt. Then go to short-term bonds for a few months. Then pivot to stocks.
2) Short-term bonds until at least a year after the start of recession. Then pivot to stocks.

That's the key here! And a big IF. If everyone "knows" a recession is coming (in say 6 months), they would sell now, thus starting the recession, but then the recession has already started, so everyone would buy.. It's a Heinsberg recession. Knowing about it, changes it.

I'm not betting that I can tell that for certain. I've had zero interest in bonds, because well, rates have been zero. But now locking them in at a guaranteed 5% for 5-10 years? That's much more attractive. I don't doubt that a few good days in the market could far eclipse those bond returns, but consistently over 5+ years is perhaps less likely. I think I'll stick to buying individual bonds though, the funds still don't seem appealing, since they'll have constantly changing yields, and will fluctuate in value (i.e. the 40% drops we've just see!) I'm even less sold on bonds funds than I was before! which was not at all, so that's pretty impressive.