Author Topic: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion  (Read 92277 times)

phil22

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #900 on: January 26, 2018, 05:24:33 PM »
"so micropayments shouldn't be used because micropayments aren't used...? nobody uses micropayments because it's not really an option yet, as cryptocurrencies are relatively new and the big ones have scaling problems."

...

Seriously: what is the point of engaging, if this is what comes back as a response? I wrote a clear and short explanation of why I believe companies have gone with a subscription model, added in an explanation of why I think it actually benefits consumers as well, and brought in supporting evidence that the subscription model is the best one available for businesses even when the subscription is completely free. In return, I get...strawman arguments and selective and misleading quotations, and no effort to discuss what I actually said. It's incredibly frustrating.

you wrote that companies today use subscription models, and gave a few reasons.  but you didn't compare subscriptions to micropayments.  what you should have said is "companies like subscription models, not micropayments, because paying subscribers often don't even use the service.  this boosts profit margins for companies."  you said almost everything but that.

from a customer's point of view, subscription models suck because if you don't use the product, you still pay.  that's why consumers would want microservices.


phil22

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #901 on: January 26, 2018, 05:35:53 PM »
At the risk of sounding dismissive: did you read the damn post at all?
...
Seriously: what is the point of engaging, if this is what comes back as a response?
...
I get...strawman arguments and selective and misleading quotations, and no effort to discuss what I actually said. It's incredibly frustrating.

the frustrating dismissive response here was me mentioning how cryptocurrencies could potentially be used for micropayments, and your response is essentially "nobody should use micropayments".

i should have just ignored your post.  sorry for responding.

waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #902 on: January 26, 2018, 07:22:35 PM »
the frustrating dismissive response here was me mentioning how cryptocurrencies could potentially be used for micropayments, and your response is essentially "nobody should use micropayments".

i should have just ignored your post.  sorry for responding.

I have to say, Phil, he's (she's?) right - you really did seem to ignore the context of the post. You're backing off of that now with some new idea about how subscriptions *aren't* ideal for consumers which is interesting - but that wasn't what you said originally. You quoted without context and you're coming off as bit of a loon. Chill out.

Also, you never addressed my question about why cryptos are so much better for micropayments. I see no reason you couldn't do micropayments with any currency you want. What makes cryptos so much better for this?

-W

runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #903 on: January 27, 2018, 01:35:27 AM »
"so micropayments shouldn't be used because micropayments aren't used...? nobody uses micropayments because it's not really an option yet, as cryptocurrencies are relatively new and the big ones have scaling problems."

...

Seriously: what is the point of engaging, if this is what comes back as a response? I wrote a clear and short explanation of why I believe companies have gone with a subscription model, added in an explanation of why I think it actually benefits consumers as well, and brought in supporting evidence that the subscription model is the best one available for businesses even when the subscription is completely free. In return, I get...strawman arguments and selective and misleading quotations, and no effort to discuss what I actually said. It's incredibly frustrating.

you wrote that companies today use subscription models, and gave a few reasons.  but you didn't compare subscriptions to micropayments.  what you should have said is "companies like subscription models, not micropayments, because paying subscribers often don't even use the service.  this boosts profit margins for companies."  you said almost everything but that.

from a customer's point of view, subscription models suck because if you don't use the product, you still pay.  that's why consumers would want microservices.

So what you really wanted was for me to make your argument for you. Come on, this is ridiculous. You still haven't read what I wrote, because every point I made about the advantages of subscription models was an advantage specifically compared to micropayments. For customers, it means their costs are far more predictable and they can subscribe to a provider of a consistently good product, meaning less time and money spent trying to find something good. For businesses, the principal benefit is that the subscription model means far more predictable revenue streams and better options for forward planning. You can fume all you want about businesses growing fat on subscriptions from people who don't use the product, but that's not a part of any sane business plan I've ever seen. It's an incidental effect, not the plan.

And my response wasn't "nobody should use micropayments". It was that nobody does, because the subscription model is a better option.

Tonyahu

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #904 on: January 27, 2018, 11:12:18 AM »
It's debatable whether the largest exchange had spent the previous few months furiously working to prop up the price in other years.

I think it's pretty clear that the price of bitcoin has been systematically manipulated by bad actors.  This probably shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

It's a completely unregulated market in what are essentially penny stocks, and we've all seen how that story ends.  The whole model is to promote positive media coverage to scare up new investor money with fomo on the next big thing, but there is no underlying value behind the asset.  Every part of that sentence is exactly like penny stocks.  How quickly we forget.

It's especially egregious to me that THIS community, of all places, has penny stock promoters.  The whole thrust of this forum's financial advice is that you can't pick the next big thing, but you can reliably get rich by regularly investing in boring dependable assets that represent aggregate performance.  You minimize risk by sharing it.   

The entire cryptocurrency space looks like a cynical cash grab by brazen criminals.  The exchanges are corrupt.  The product is imaginary and the revenue stream is non-existent.  Just like with booming penny stocks, all they have is a clever idea and an overhyped media presence, which they use to fleece the late comers.  It's an elaborate scam.

Bitcoin is antithetical to everything this website represents.  This is probably the wrong place to shill for it.  And yet here we are, listening to poster after poster pushing their fomo agenda with promises of instant gratification.  Get real, peeps.

1. Please re-read the opening post of this thread.
2. Cease posting in here.

Thank you.

sol

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #905 on: January 27, 2018, 11:21:35 AM »
1. Please re-read the opening post of this thread.
2. Cease posting in here.

Oh I'm so sorry.  Did I not quietly acquiesce to your ridiculous demands?

Here's a tip.  If you start a thread asking people to talk about how great slavery is, you're probably going to find a few posts you don't agree with there, too. 

This is a forum about financial advice.  Starting a thread to give people bad financial advice is unlikely to go unchallenged.  I think I will not sit quietly, despite your good manners.  Which really are lovely, btw, thanks for that.


runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #906 on: January 27, 2018, 11:27:18 AM »
You want this thread to stick purely to discussing holdings and avoid any critical commentary of cryptocurrencies as a whole?

That particular horse has long since bolted, written a white paper, set up its own cryptocurrency, strategically hyped HorseCoin on social media, and sold half its holdings just before HorseCoin's value collapsed.

Not to mention that there's something deeply unpleasant about seeing demands that people stop posting negative stuff when there still isn't a cogent explanation for how someone bought a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin by first buying it in Tether, or why Tether can't provide any evidence that this billion dollars exists. This isn't even a discussion of whether cryptocurrency is in a bubble anymore: it's a question of whether its price is being inflated by criminal behaviour, and there's credible circumstantial evidence that it is.

Padonak

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #907 on: January 27, 2018, 11:51:31 AM »
1. Please re-read the opening post of this thread.
2. Cease posting in here.

Oh I'm so sorry.  Did I not quietly acquiesce to your ridiculous demands?

Here's a tip.  If you start a thread asking people to talk about how great slavery is, you're probably going to find a few posts you don't agree with there, too. 

This is a forum about financial advice.  Starting a thread to give people bad financial advice is unlikely to go unchallenged.  I think I will not sit quietly, despite your good manners.  Which really are lovely, btw, thanks for that.

Crypto shills are shaming us no coiners because they are running out of greater fools and getting desperate. They need a bunch of greater fools to hold the bag full of shitcoins when this bubble finally bursts.

waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #908 on: January 27, 2018, 12:28:37 PM »
You got out, right Tony? You had a bunch of threads asking about investing over the last 6 weeks ago. Hope you sold and put the money to work in less risky ways.

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Bicycle_B

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #909 on: January 27, 2018, 12:34:27 PM »
I don't hold any crypto, but feel this thread's original purpose had value.  In addition, a variety of discussions have occurred through the thread that are not criticism of cryptocurrency in general, but instead are reasoned opinions about the value and nature of particular cryptocurrencies.  I think that a thread focused on stating crypto holdings and discussing the specific characteristics and valuation of particular currencies is a reasonable thing to ask.

Stating a zero holding of crypto and expounding once that the reason is because you think all cryptocurrency is a shell game is something you can reasonably do once in the thread, because it differentiates your position from one like mine - I hold no crypto, but am an agnostic of sorts who is genuinely curious.  But repeated posting of a general crypto-sucks opinion is going too far in thread.  Crypto holders should have a place to talk where they can come to their own conclusions without others badgering them.  MMM's founder already posted his opinion elsewhere.  Let the crypto holders work through this in peace.

Tonyahu, you yourself have shown on more than one thread that you have been both active in crypto and actively considering sale of some cryptocurrency for the purpose of buying fiat-denominated investments.  I'm hoping for the best for you.  Any updates you'd be willing to share about your crypto holdings? 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 12:38:13 PM by Bicycle_B »

runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #910 on: January 28, 2018, 01:48:27 AM »
"Crypto holders should have a place to talk where they can come to their own conclusions without others badgering them."

It's debatable whether that place should be on the MMM forum. As you note, MMM himself is quite clear that he has no faith in the pricing of cryptocurrencies, and sol has also given a very clear explanation for why he/she regards crypto as fundamentally inimical to MMM principles. A thread focused entirely on positive or neutral discussion of crypto makes about as much sense as a thread called "Show Us Your Brand New SUV" where nobody's allowed to point out that brand new SUVs are a terrible waste of money.

This is a forum based on a website that routinely tells people they deserve a punch in the face for their poor financial decisions. It is absolutely not a place for a discussion that doesn't allow sustained criticism of a poor financial decision.

BattlaP

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #911 on: January 28, 2018, 01:56:14 AM »
Empty ‘Amen’ post. Well said.

bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #912 on: January 28, 2018, 06:43:08 AM »
Great post runbikerun. 

shadow

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runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #914 on: January 30, 2018, 02:44:05 PM »
Everything in that article screams "this is going to be an almighty shitshow". There isn't a single reassuring detail.

jmecklenborg

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #915 on: January 30, 2018, 03:46:56 PM »
Crypto shills are shaming us no coiners because they are running out of greater fools and getting desperate. They need a bunch of greater fools to hold the bag full of shitcoins when this bubble finally bursts.

I sold, I'm completely out. 

My furnace went out the first week of December and my transmission blew on Christmas morning. -$11,000 for the month.  The heating/cooling place didn't accept bitcoin and neither did the Ford dealership. 

effigy98

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #916 on: January 30, 2018, 05:14:12 PM »
Things in stock market that are sketchy/corrupt/not cool :
- unregulated exchanges
 -blatant price manipulation by exchanges
 -concentration of majority of any coin with a very small group of people
-concentration of mining groups
- insider trading prohibitions of the stock market do not apply in crypto
- bots manipulating prices
-coordination of buying/selling by whales

Funny how most of this can be changed to talk about most finanical markets... Humans are mostly corrupt and out for themselves. That is natural and normal. We as a society can deny that all we want, but it is just the way it is. I personally would prefer algorithms to take over and evolve over time to remove as much "human" as possible to provide fairness and transparency to our markets and reward system. We are getting closer and this is a pretty amazing start of a revolution.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 05:20:36 PM by effigy98 »

bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #917 on: January 30, 2018, 08:05:24 PM »
Things in stock market that are sketchy/corrupt/not cool :
- unregulated exchanges
 -blatant price manipulation by exchanges
 -concentration of majority of any coin with a very small group of people
-concentration of mining groups
- insider trading prohibitions of the stock market do not apply in crypto
- bots manipulating prices
-coordination of buying/selling by whales

Funny how most of this can be changed to talk about most finanical markets... Humans are mostly corrupt and out for themselves. That is natural and normal. We as a society can deny that all we want, but it is just the way it is. I personally would prefer algorithms to take over and evolve over time to remove as much "human" as possible to provide fairness and transparency to our markets and reward system. We are getting closer and this is a pretty amazing start of a revolution.

This is wrong.

The stock market has had a century of regulation and progress.  The corruption/manipulation in the stock market is barely detectable compared to crypto.

You'll never remove the human aspect.  Algorithms don't evolve and take over on their own - there are humans behind every line of code.

Consider addressing the issues rather than turn around every argument that pokes holes in your fantasy crypto utopia.

phil22

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #918 on: January 30, 2018, 08:59:24 PM »
Consider addressing the issues rather than turn around every argument that pokes holes in your fantasy crypto utopia.

cryptos are traded on shallow, heavily-manipulated markets run on exchanges prone to hacks, theft, and general incompetence.  tether looks to be fraudulently propping up a good chuck of the market.  many of the newer coins are simply scams.  many coins are having scaling issues as the size of the user base grows.  many coins have power consumption issues.  yes, they are a terrible "investment."  putting money into a crypto "portfolio" is a terrible idea.

all that being said... cryptocurrencies are not going to magically go "poof" and disappear one wednesday morning.  i don't know if this counts as a "fantasy crypto utopia" but they are here to stay, and things arguably couldn't get much worse for cryptos.  judging by the vitriol from the anti-crypto crowd here i doubt we can agree on that much.

waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #919 on: January 30, 2018, 09:13:20 PM »
I'm not anti-crypto. I'm *pro* crypto. I want to pay for stuff (and get paid for stuff) without paying 2-5% to various stupid middlemen.

However all the existing implementations are a miserable failure at doing this, many of the popular ones seemingly by design. I don't want to "invest" in currency and hold onto it in the hopes it'll gain value, I want a nice easy to use cheap secure *tool* for making transactions.

I think the "anti" crypto folks are just as annoyed as I am that people have fallen for what appears to be a con. Nobody is against an inexpensive and secure way to pay for things, but millions of people bidding up the value of the various tokens such that they're unusable for transactions, IMO, makes that outcome *less* likely.

-W

anisotropy

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #920 on: January 30, 2018, 10:02:37 PM »

all that being said... cryptocurrencies are not going to magically go "poof" and disappear one wednesday morning.  i don't know if this counts as a "fantasy crypto utopia" but they are here to stay, and things arguably couldn't get much worse for cryptos.  judging by the vitriol from the anti-crypto crowd here i doubt we can agree on that much.

Few years ago, during the previous pot hype, I traded shares of various pot companies of the day: PHOT, FITX, etc. At the end of the pump/dump cycle, for whatever it's worth, I left some money on the table in each of these companies just to see if I would get lucky and maybe one of them would actually hit it big.

Today, most of them are still around. They are "here to stay" you could argue, but most of them are worth perhaps 1% of what they were valued during the hype. The pot frenzy is renewed, but with a different list of candidates. I fail to see how it is different from the current crypto scene, especially if we are talking about coins.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 10:06:40 PM by anisotropy »

worldtraveler

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #921 on: January 30, 2018, 10:11:12 PM »
Capital One 360 now blocking purchases of bitcoin from my account onto coinbase. This is the exact reason why we need crypto in our lives. Who are they to tell me how I can or can't spend my hard earned money. A few years ago I was also hassled by a bank, who made me feel like a terrorist due to a large cash deposit. I closed my account with them at the time. No reason for this bull-shit.

Nate79

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #922 on: January 30, 2018, 10:17:14 PM »
Capital One 360 now blocking purchases of bitcoin from my account onto coinbase. This is the exact reason why we need crypto in our lives. Who are they to tell me how I can or can't spend my hard earned money. A few years ago I was also hassled by a bank, who made me feel like a terrorist due to a large cash deposit. I closed my account with them at the time. No reason for this bull-shit.
You are not spending your money. You are getting a loan (credit card) to buy something. That credit can be pulled at any time. Buying investments on margin is highly risky and the credit card companies are worried, and rightly so that they will not get paid back.

Feel free to buy this crap using your own money.

Good for them to shut this down.

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worldtraveler

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #923 on: January 30, 2018, 10:19:16 PM »
Capital One 360 now blocking purchases of bitcoin from my account onto coinbase. This is the exact reason why we need crypto in our lives. Who are they to tell me how I can or can't spend my hard earned money. A few years ago I was also hassled by a bank, who made me feel like a terrorist due to a large cash deposit. I closed my account with them at the time. No reason for this bull-shit.
You are not spending your money. You are getting a loan (credit card) to buy something. That credit can be pulled at any time. Buying investments on margin is highly risky and the credit card companies are worried, and rightly so that they will not get paid back.

Feel free to buy this crap using your own money.

Good for them to shut this down.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Huh? I'm not using a credit card. This was to be pulled from my checking account. And come on, you really think credit card companies are worried about me losing my money????? They do charge us 30% or higher, if we don't pay our balance after all!!!!

shadow

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #924 on: January 30, 2018, 10:20:17 PM »
It's fine to be skeptical and have criticisms. The thing that I wonder about is how much research was done before offering these criticisms. Many of the things being questioned, such as databases or engineering scalability issues or security or viability, and other issues have been deeply analyzed. If the google searches are still unconvincing, then maybe we can discuss which aspects.

I don't want to "invest" in currency and hold onto it in the hopes it'll gain value, I want a nice easy to use cheap secure *tool* for making transactions.

You don't have to "invest" or buy in. Just wait and see if something emerges that you'll find useful or not. Right now, alot of different protocols are being experimented and speculated on. There are alot of scams too but also legitimate development. Possibly in the near future, you may even be using a blockchain backend without realizing it.




Nate79

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #925 on: January 30, 2018, 10:33:33 PM »
Capital One 360 now blocking purchases of bitcoin from my account onto coinbase. This is the exact reason why we need crypto in our lives. Who are they to tell me how I can or can't spend my hard earned money. A few years ago I was also hassled by a bank, who made me feel like a terrorist due to a large cash deposit. I closed my account with them at the time. No reason for this bull-shit.
You are not spending your money. You are getting a loan (credit card) to buy something. That credit can be pulled at any time. Buying investments on margin is highly risky and the credit card companies are worried, and rightly so that they will not get paid back.

Feel free to buy this crap using your own money.

Good for them to shut this down.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Huh? I'm not using a credit card. This was to be pulled from my checking account. And come on, you really think credit card companies are worried about me losing my money????? They do charge us 30% or higher, if we don't pay our balance after all!!!!
My bad. I thought you were referring to the recent announcements of credit cards blocking the purchase of bitcoin.

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Travis

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #926 on: January 31, 2018, 09:41:52 AM »
It's fine to be skeptical and have criticisms. The thing that I wonder about is how much research was done before offering these criticisms. Many of the things being questioned, such as databases or engineering scalability issues or security or viability, and other issues have been deeply analyzed. If the google searches are still unconvincing, then maybe we can discuss which aspects.

I don't want to "invest" in currency and hold onto it in the hopes it'll gain value, I want a nice easy to use cheap secure *tool* for making transactions.

You don't have to "invest" or buy in. Just wait and see if something emerges that you'll find useful or not. Right now, alot of different protocols are being experimented and speculated on. There are alot of scams too but also legitimate development. Possibly in the near future, you may even be using a blockchain backend without realizing it.

And there's the reason for the criticisms.  This thread has been going on for 6 months and was started not to discuss or debate the value of the underlying technology, but rather showcase "OMG, look at all the money I'm making!"  Either intentionally or through a Freudian slip, you acknowledge speculation is going on.  That's not a positive thing in discussing investments for most folks.  That deep analysis you mentioned has been found wanting. Billions of dollars are disappearing from this niche market their hacks and ponzi schemes and the oversight of this niche is not yet equipped to handle it.  Any attempts at forming regulation of these markets by national bodies is met with tin-foil derision.  The same people who complained that 2008 happened because of greed and not enough regulation are now boasting how unregulated crypto is the wave of the future.  Facebook is now longer allowing crypto advertising because of the rampant speculation and murky waters of this market.  They don't want to be associated with it right now and I can't blame them.
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shadow

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #927 on: January 31, 2018, 11:15:36 AM »
It's fine to be skeptical and have criticisms. The thing that I wonder about is how much research was done before offering these criticisms. Many of the things being questioned, such as databases or engineering scalability issues or security or viability, and other issues have been deeply analyzed. If the google searches are still unconvincing, then maybe we can discuss which aspects.

I don't want to "invest" in currency and hold onto it in the hopes it'll gain value, I want a nice easy to use cheap secure *tool* for making transactions.

You don't have to "invest" or buy in. Just wait and see if something emerges that you'll find useful or not. Right now, alot of different protocols are being experimented and speculated on. There are alot of scams too but also legitimate development. Possibly in the near future, you may even be using a blockchain backend without realizing it.

And there's the reason for the criticisms. 

Not clear what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that my comment about how some of the criticisms indicate a lack of research is the reason for criticisms? Or do you mean "there's a reason for criticisms?" If you mean the latter, no disagreement on my part. There are plenty of valid criticisms.

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This thread has been going on for 6 months and was started not to discuss or debate the value of the underlying technology, but rather showcase "OMG, look at all the money I'm making!"  Either intentionally or through a Freudian slip, you acknowledge speculation is going on.  That's not a positive thing in discussing investments for most folks.

The people that believe in crypto, are curious what others are paying attention to and why. To me, it's more about about the discussion surrounding crypto and less about "look at how much I'm making." It's always been about speculation for me; I never indicated otherwise or attempted to hide it. If I want to take a small position speculating on something I believe has promise, I don't see that as a bad thing. Someone is always taking the risk somewhere, whether individually or collectively. I don't argue or deny traditional investments and I would not encourage people to actually take from this and invest into crypto.

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That deep analysis you mentioned has been found wanting.

The scalability issue has been a known problem and is something widely researched. The questions about how blockchain would affect and alleviate issues with databases and other tech have been examined. The issues about bitcoin have been acknowledged and researched and various crypto have sprung up filling in the gaps. Also, from the crypthusiast perspective, they discuss crypto in general and not really bitcoin, but bitcoin gets thrown in there alot.

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Billions of dollars are disappearing from this niche market their hacks and ponzi schemes and the oversight of this niche is not yet equipped to handle it.

I agree, this is true. There are various sophisticated scams ongoing, and various issues with oversight and governance. Hence, the speculation and risk.

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Any attempts at forming regulation of these markets by national bodies is met with tin-foil derision. 

I have a neutral stance on this and am observing how it plays out. There are already regulation taking shape. Kyc laws, fintech legislation, ico, etc.

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The same people who complained that 2008 happened because of greed and not enough regulation are now boasting how unregulated crypto is the wave of the future.

Not my position.

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Facebook is now longer allowing crypto advertising because of the rampant speculation and murky waters of this market.  They don't want to be associated with it right now and I can't blame them.

I don't have too much of an opinion on this other than it seems to me they want to protect users against fraud and scams.

Travis

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #928 on: January 31, 2018, 12:05:37 PM »
It's fine to be skeptical and have criticisms. The thing that I wonder about is how much research was done before offering these criticisms. Many of the things being questioned, such as databases or engineering scalability issues or security or viability, and other issues have been deeply analyzed. If the google searches are still unconvincing, then maybe we can discuss which aspects.

I don't want to "invest" in currency and hold onto it in the hopes it'll gain value, I want a nice easy to use cheap secure *tool* for making transactions.

You don't have to "invest" or buy in. Just wait and see if something emerges that you'll find useful or not. Right now, alot of different protocols are being experimented and speculated on. There are alot of scams too but also legitimate development. Possibly in the near future, you may even be using a blockchain backend without realizing it.

And there's the reason for the criticisms. 

Not clear what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that my comment about how some of the criticisms indicate a lack of research is the reason for criticisms? Or do you mean "there's a reason for criticisms?" If you mean the latter, no disagreement on my part. There are plenty of valid criticisms.

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This thread has been going on for 6 months and was started not to discuss or debate the value of the underlying technology, but rather showcase "OMG, look at all the money I'm making!"  Either intentionally or through a Freudian slip, you acknowledge speculation is going on.  That's not a positive thing in discussing investments for most folks.

The people that believe in crypto, are curious what others are paying attention to and why. To me, it's more about about the discussion surrounding crypto and less about "look at how much I'm making." It's always been about speculation for me; I never indicated otherwise or attempted to hide it. If I want to take a small position speculating on something I believe has promise, I don't see that as a bad thing. Someone is always taking the risk somewhere, whether individually or collectively. I don't argue or deny traditional investments and I would not encourage people to actually take from this and invest into crypto.

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That deep analysis you mentioned has been found wanting.

The scalability issue has been a known problem and is something widely researched. The questions about how blockchain would affect and alleviate issues with databases and other tech have been examined. The issues about bitcoin have been acknowledged and researched and various crypto have sprung up filling in the gaps. Also, from the crypthusiast perspective, they discuss crypto in general and not really bitcoin, but bitcoin gets thrown in there alot.

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Billions of dollars are disappearing from this niche market through hacks and ponzi schemes and the oversight of this niche is not yet equipped to handle it.

I agree, this is true. There are various sophisticated scams ongoing, and various issues with oversight and governance. Hence, the speculation and risk.

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Any attempts at forming regulation of these markets by national bodies is met with tin-foil derision. 

I have a neutral stance on this and am observing how it plays out. There are already regulation taking shape. Kyc laws, fintech legislation, ico, etc.

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The same people who complained that 2008 happened because of greed and not enough regulation are now boasting how unregulated crypto is the wave of the future.

Not my position.

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Facebook is no longer allowing crypto advertising because of the rampant speculation and murky waters of this market.  They don't want to be associated with it right now and I can't blame them.

I don't have too much of an opinion on this other than it seems to me they want to protect users against fraud and scams.

Re: criticisms: I highlighted "speculation and scams" because that's where a lot of the criticism stems from.  The chief criticisms of the crypto-market are that it is a speculative bubble not yet (or maybe ever?) backed by enough of a lasting business model that justifies current market cap in addition to current regulatory and security flaws.
Re: speculation: The number of posts denying this on this and many other financial threads across the internet fuels the criticism.  I appreciate that you're up-front about your position; however, the number of people on this forum let alone the rest of the world who have been convinced this is a valid investment on par with traditional equities is troubling. 
Re: crypto is not necessarily bitcoin: agreed. The difference gets lost far too often in discussions though. Bitcoin is more or less the standard-bearer of the market and where it goes, the discussion goes with it.
Re: regulatory concerns. I wasn't saying those opinions were necessarily yours, but they comprise enough of the pro-stance that I felt it needed to be said.
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powskier

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #929 on: February 01, 2018, 12:18:03 AM »
Things in stock market that are sketchy/corrupt/not cool :
- unregulated exchanges
 -blatant price manipulation by exchanges
 -concentration of majority of any coin with a very small group of people
-concentration of mining groups
- insider trading prohibitions of the stock market do not apply in crypto
- bots manipulating prices
-coordination of buying/selling by whales

Funny how most of this can be changed to talk about most finanical markets... Humans are mostly corrupt and out for themselves. That is natural and normal. We as a society can deny that all we want, but it is just the way it is. I personally would prefer algorithms to take over and evolve over time to remove as much "human" as possible to provide fairness and transparency to our markets and reward system. We are getting closer and this is a pretty amazing start of a revolution.
If you are going to quote a post of mine and change words in it, you should fuvcking make it clear that you changed words in it,simply bolding  those words isn't enough.

powskier

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #930 on: February 01, 2018, 12:20:57 AM »
Things in stock market that are sketchy/corrupt/not cool :
- unregulated exchanges
 -blatant price manipulation by exchanges
 -concentration of majority of any coin with a very small group of people
-concentration of mining groups
- insider trading prohibitions of the stock market do not apply in crypto
- bots manipulating prices
-coordination of buying/selling by whales

Funny how most of this can be changed to talk about most finanical markets... Humans are mostly corrupt and out for themselves. That is natural and normal. We as a society can deny that all we want, but it is just the way it is. I personally would prefer algorithms to take over and evolve over time to remove as much "human" as possible to provide fairness and transparency to our markets and reward system. We are getting closer and this is a pretty amazing start of a revolution.

This is wrong.

The stock market has had a century of regulation and progress.  The corruption/manipulation in the stock market is barely detectable compared to crypto.

You'll never remove the human aspect.  Algorithms don't evolve and take over on their own - there are humans behind every line of code.

Consider addressing the issues rather than turn around every argument that pokes holes in your fantasy crypto utopia.
In my post I wrote all of those things about crypto exchanges, and effigy 98 replaced those words with "stock market". This is bullshit.

powskier

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #931 on: February 01, 2018, 12:24:47 AM »
Things in crypto space that are sketchy/corrupt/not cool :
- unregulated exchanges
 -blatant price manipulation by exchanges
 -concentration of majority of any coin with a very small group of people
-concentration of mining groups
- insider trading prohibitions of the stock market do not apply in crypto
- bots manipulating prices
-coordination of buying/selling by whales

Plenty of these items are well covered in articles by Bloomberg, NYT, WAPO, etc , I am not going to provide links someone with more time on their hands can if they wish.  Blockchain can indeed prevent corruption, improve transparency, etc, etc but the entire crypto space is full of people taking advantage of others in ways that are clearly illegal ( although likely done) in other markets. Have fun , make some money if you wish ( I am) but don't drink so much Kool aid that you end up drowning. The post government/banking libertarian utopia that many crypto enthusiasts expect is highly unlikely. Some applications of blockchain technology will likely become valuable and of great use, but to be clear the entire market itself is just about a transfer of wealth from the many to the few. Same as the rest of finances. Make sure to take gains and only gamble what you can afford to lose, or don't play.
Here is my post as it was, before effigy98 quoted it making a significant change without actually making clear the change he had made, this is a very deceptive way to make a point. I am sure Putin or Trump would love to hire you effigy98.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #932 on: February 01, 2018, 02:36:49 AM »
^^^

Powskier,
If only the forum was logged on some kind of, say, distributed blockchain ledger, then this type of malicious manipulation couldn't happen
;-)
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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #933 on: February 01, 2018, 01:26:23 PM »
^^^

Powskier,
If only the forum was logged on some kind of, say, distributed blockchain ledger, then this type of malicious manipulation couldn't happen
;-)

If you're trying to make an actual point instead of just a joke then you failed. Here in the regular old-fashioned database we have powskier's original post, unalterable by anyone except him or the mods. It's also still perfectly possible to take something stored on the blockchain, alter it, and claim that it's from the original poster (though, like here, if anyone bothers to try to verify that they'll see it isn't true).

Powskier: I didn't read effigy's changes as malicious, he just was trying to make an (incorrect) point and didn't quite make the change clear enough.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #934 on: February 02, 2018, 12:06:01 PM »
At what point does everyone figure themselves for a bag holder and sell? Institutional money is fleeing crypto right now.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #935 on: February 02, 2018, 12:43:48 PM »
At what point does everyone figure themselves for a bag holder and sell? Institutional money is fleeing crypto right now.

Like, six months ago?

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #936 on: February 03, 2018, 01:34:59 AM »
At what point does everyone figure themselves for a bag holder and sell? Institutional money is fleeing crypto right now.

You don't understand, man! It's not about the price, man, it's about the philosophy, man, bro! Like.. decentralised.. secure.. *mumble mumble*.. fucking central banks, man! Just ignore the FUDS, bro, goddamn FUDS all over the place at the mo. Just HODL, bro. Just HOLD it. They said it was a bubble back in 2014, man, look at us now! They're running scared, mate. Yo, did you watch the latest Andreatta Andriopolousnesse's youtube clip man? He's, like, just, speaking the truth, bro.

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Padonak

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #937 on: February 03, 2018, 12:52:04 PM »
Crypto "investors" keep saying that unlike fiat money, crypto currencies are not inflationary. I think this is a bunch of bullshit.

Yes, bitcoin and most (not all) crypto currencies are not inflationary because there is a limited supply of each of them as well as limits placed on maximum number of coins that can be mined. However, anybody can fork bitcoin, Etherium and many other coins or issue their own coins and tokens.

If you look at the entire crypto space instead of each coin separately, the number of crypto coins and tokens increases over time while the amount of money people "invest" will not be increasing forever. In fact, as soon as more money is transferred from cryto back to fiat than the money going in the opposite direction, the total amount of fiat chasing crypto will start decreasing. More crypto coins vs less fiat money chasing them means crypto inflation. Maybe it has already started which would explain why crypto prices have dropped recently pretty much across the board.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #939 on: February 04, 2018, 01:07:16 PM »
https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/02/04/168427/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-it-too-late-(bitcoin)/msg1800276/#msg1800276

Reposting an infamous quote From Dec 7, 2017: 
Just watched 12million bought at 17.7k in seconds.  These aren't normal people buying.  This is just the beginning.  The herd is coming

Is the herd still coming, or is the jig up?

worldtraveler

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #940 on: February 04, 2018, 01:08:37 PM »
https://www.newsbtc.com/2018/02/04/168427/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-it-too-late-(bitcoin)/msg1800276/#msg1800276

Reposting an infamous quote From Dec 7, 2017: 
Just watched 12million bought at 17.7k in seconds.  These aren't normal people buying.  This is just the beginning.  The herd is coming

Is the herd still coming, or is the jig up?

Still coming. I've never been more bullish.  I've been through countless ups and downs and have been numb through this last drop.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 01:10:51 PM by worldtraveler »

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #941 on: February 04, 2018, 05:28:46 PM »
It's funny that crypto crashes 50% and all of a sudden the people who didn't like crypto are patting themselves on their backs.  In reality, crypto just lost one months worth of gains and if someone got involved in November 2017 they would still be up a few years of S&P 500 gains.  You're right crypto opponents, this is the end of crypto, it won't recover, and everyone who bought crypto lost everything.  :p

It was fully expected that this would happen sooner or later.  Its not the first time its happened and it won't be the last.  Do what you want but be respectful of others decision to invest a small portion of their investments into a speculative asset.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #942 on: February 04, 2018, 06:46:57 PM »
I think we've established here that crypto is not entitled to a safe place void of criticism here on the forum.  MMM even has a recent article titled 'Why bitcoin is stupid'...

Posts like 'I've never been more bullish' deserve harsh criticism, as they give no reason for such unbridled enthusiasm.  Virtually all the news in the last few weeks has been negative, with governments adopting stronger anti-crypto policies.  We're seeing the unregulated marketplace is ripe for manipulation, scams, and outright theft.

So expect continued criticism from any post of pure speculation or propaganda.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #943 on: February 04, 2018, 09:08:50 PM »
It's funny that crypto crashes 50% and all of a sudden the people who didn't like crypto are patting themselves on their backs.  In reality, crypto just lost one months worth of gains and if someone got involved in November 2017 they would still be up a few years of S&P 500 gains.  You're right crypto opponents, this is the end of crypto, it won't recover, and everyone who bought crypto lost everything.  :p

It was fully expected that this would happen sooner or later.  Its not the first time its happened and it won't be the last.  Do what you want but be respectful of others decision to invest a small portion of their investments into a speculative asset.

This is more or less exactly why a lot of people are bearish on crypto. Losing over 50% of value in about six weeks and still being ahead compared to less than three months ago is utter batshit lunacy. It should be regarded as a warning sign carved in hundred-metre-high letters made of continuously burning fuel. I'd be less convinced crypto was in a bubble if a 50% drop was a catastrophe wiping out years of steady gains, because that would be consistent with a sudden but not total drop in demand and a reasonable prospect of settling at the new level. What's happening with Bitcoin is the opposite: it's a blindingly obvious sign that there's nothing concrete backing up prices at all.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #944 on: February 05, 2018, 10:34:11 AM »
Heading in the right direction to where it normally should be. This bubble is finally re setting.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #945 on: February 05, 2018, 03:04:49 PM »
Here is a price comparison, of Bitcoin and all altcoins mentioned in the OP, from the date this thread was started to today. 

BTC - $2,616.03… $7,287
ETH - $325.74… $727.07
XMR - $47.59… $191.49
OMG – >$0.50… $9.85
IOTA - $0.50… $1.50
LTC - $44.95… $131.64
FCT - $30.60… $22.46
LSK - $3.27… $16.05
Ardor - $0.26… $0.38
ARK - $0.69… $3.31
NEO - $6.16… $88.12
QTUM - $16.05… $21.65

Basically, despite this bloodbath, unless you were all in on FCT, you would still be very much in the green!
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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #946 on: February 05, 2018, 03:07:47 PM »
Basically, despite this bloodbath, unless you were all in on FCT, you would still be very much in the green!

Awesome! 

So which ones of those coins do you recommend buying today?

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #947 on: February 05, 2018, 03:31:44 PM »
Ugh, son convinced me to buy Bitcoin (not real money, just a few hundred bucks of silly play-money) in December.  This is why you don't take financial advice from kids, no matter how much time they spend on Reddit crypto forums LOL.  I'm gonna hodl, since I considered it lost/gambling money when I spent it.  Maybe I'll forget about it and be a Bitilllionaire in 50 years.  Or maybe Cryp-Top was in... ;)

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #948 on: February 05, 2018, 04:04:32 PM »
Basically, despite this bloodbath, unless you were all in on FCT, you would still be very much in the green!

Awesome! 

So which ones of those coins do you recommend buying today?

I don't make recommendations to people with respect to stocks or crypto.  The only financial recommendation I will make is to invest in the S&P 500 index as your paychecks come in and don't look at it. When I'm asked about crypyo, I will offer my opinion that the crypto markets are not a fit for everyone because 70% drops are not unusual.  I disclose that I personally only put in a very small amount of my money into crypto and suggest that they only invest what you can afford to lose.  I recommend against using crypto as a primary source of investment.  I give responsible advise and advise that I don't know what the future holds as I'm no expert but I personally believe crypto is a good investment for those that can stand deep cuts periodically and not sell at the sight of red.

With that said, I'm not familiar with the tech, teams, development and use-case for many of those cryptos.  On a speculative level, I think they will all probably outperform the stock market by a significant amount within the next three years.  The ones that I am familiar with [ETH, BTC, LSK, IOTA], I expect they will stand a much greater chance of doing this.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #949 on: February 05, 2018, 04:44:44 PM »
The ongoing US regulatory investigation into bitfinex and its use of tether to buy bitcoin (and other coins) without USD backing has basically ended any faith I may have once aspired to have in the crypto market. 

It's looking more and more like the entire cyrptocurrency space is just another fiat currency system, effectively privatized by rogue bankers claiming to destroy the global banking system.  They've created more money out of thin air in the past year than Bear Stearns ever did.  They've manipulated prices, lied to regulators, concealed their bookkeeping, and failed every audit.

I'm kind of sad about it, really.  I think digital currencies are a neat idea and I was hoping they found a good use case.  Unfortunately, like so many cases where there are billions to be made, it looks like criminals took over and rigged the system.  Tether is apparently a fraud, which means every single crypto coin traded for tether isn't priced based on the market, but on deception.

Bitcoin was supposed to have a fixed number of unique tokens, but it is being bought and sold with an unlimited supply of tether, which are theoretically tied to the US dollar but there is zero evidence that is actually true.  There is no gold reserve behind the tether standard.  There is no fiat currency behind the tether standard.  It's looking more and more like there is nothing at all behind tether, except a mostly Chinese hacker group operating through a British Virgin Islands exchange.  There are so many red flags here I'm not quite sure where to start.

There are lots of smart people here.  Some of you know crypto a lot better than I do.  Can someone please explain to me why there are billions of dollars worth of tether flooding into crypto investments without any money behind them?  Is it really just simple market manipulation, like it appears on its face?