Author Topic: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion  (Read 27436 times)

OneCoolCat

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #250 on: August 15, 2017, 04:01:26 PM »
If you build your own rig it would take you approximately 9 months to pay off your equipment and cover electricity cost.  However, if you would have built a rig about 6 months ago you would have paid it off in 3 months tops.  People with $2,000 rigs were mining $800 a month a couple months ago.  Its now about $300 (electricity is probably $40-$50 per month extra depending upon your rate).
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maizeman

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #251 on: August 15, 2017, 04:18:38 PM »
@OneCoolCat, those numbers have gotta be ZEC or ETH mining right? The price/difficulty of bitcoin mining doesn't change that rapidly anymore does it?

@CanuckExpat, it's a good question. I'm out of town all week but would be interesting to run the numbers once I am back on my home computer. Could compare to putting the same amount of money I spent on mining equipment right into the cyptocurrency (right now I know I'd come out way behind just because bitcoin has been on a big run up in price), or into stock/bond index funds.

One important question to resolve, would you say it makes more sense to only consider the potential increase/decrease in value of the investment, or the total value of the investment? The money I spent building my miner is gone (maybe I could get a couple of hundred bucks for the parts if I wanted to mess around on ebay), which my charts show me starting off more than $1,000 in the hole. For an investment in the currencies themselves (or a stock index fund) I'd still be able to get my original investment out at any time (less any capital losses).

@lifeanon

Your analysis assumes that the mining is being uses as a method of buying bitcoins (or other currencies) which lumps together two very different financial questions: whether it makes financial sense to mine BTC/ETH/ZEC/etc and whether it makes sense to hold BTC/ETH/ZEC for appreciation. I'm currently doing some of both, but it could very easily be that once we're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight, one (either one) will have made financial sense and the other did not. So I'm trying to separate out the two effects as I go along.
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lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #252 on: August 15, 2017, 06:06:09 PM »
Does opportunity cost really work this way for mining?  One can buy one BTC for x dollars or etc or bannanas or babbage coins today.  At least for BTC, difficulty keeps going up and the reward steadily goes down with each Halving. So going forward one doesn't really know what one can get from mining.  As a year or two go by its likely your miner may no longer be cutting edge/competitive. Maybe one can say that one must be willing to switch to a more profitable crypto currency?

I'm not really sure I get what you're saying. The miner I have today will absolutely become obsolete some day. That doesn't mean that it won't mine me more bitcoin than I spent on it. Unless there is some drastic change in the difficulty and massive unexpected jump in the network hash rate, then I expect to make more bitcoin with my miner than I spent on it. I paid for the miner with bitcoin, so disregarding the price of bitcoin at any point in time, then I will fully expect by the time my miner becomes obsolete that I will end up with more bitcoin than I spent. Determining success or failure in the end would ultimately depend solely on the value of the bitcoin that I mined at some point in the future.

The big question about profitibility then becomes chiefly about what happens to the price of bitcoin. The only way to analyze success or failure is with the benefit of hindsight. Since both mining and investing success in bitcoin both depend upon the appreciation of bitcoin, then the main difference between the two is the mining difficulty during the mining period.

Therefore, I'd say that the biggest difference between mining bitcoin versus investing in bitcoin is that mining bitcoin is a little more risky since if the price of bitcoin plummets to the point where mining is longer profitable, then the sunken cost of the mining equipment purchase becomes much more difficult to recoup in a market devoid of willing purchasers of obsolete mining equipment. Also, with an upfront investment purchase of bitcoin, if the price begins to plummet, once can simply sell the bitcoin and limit the downside risk.

That being said, mining bitcoin also has much more upside since in general you can mine more bitcoin than was spent (say 150% of the original investment give or take with today's difficulty and an efficient miner). That means, if holding the bitcoin long and the price appreciates even modestly, the gains will outpace those that would've been realized had one just simply invested the money instead.

At least this is based on my own mining experience. YMMV. The biggest variation in one's outcomes would likely be electricity costs. If electricity costs are expensive, then in an investment scenario one could invest the money that would've been spent on electricity for mining to continue purchasing bitcoin dollar cost averaging along the way. This could greatly diminish the benefit of mining over a pure investment strategy.

calpolyjohn

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #253 on: August 17, 2017, 02:34:02 PM »
For new people, coinbase has an Auto invest feature you can setup weekly/monthly in the 3 major coins. It is by far the easiest way to get started. Just sign up for their website, link a checking account, and turn on auto invest for the coin(s) you want. No need to learn all this complex mining if you don't want to. Until there is an official ETF, this is a good start.

I'm very new to this, so I apologize if this is a dumb question.  I bought 8 ETH using coinbase this week.  My plan is a long term hold just in case it goes crazy like BTC and its a small part of my portfolio I'm willing to risk big losses with.  My question - is it safe to keep in coinbase?

Thanks 

RetroFIRE

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #254 on: August 17, 2017, 08:08:33 PM »
Following!  Great discussion all!

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #255 on: August 18, 2017, 06:07:25 AM »
I'm very new to this, so I apologize if this is a dumb question.  I bought 8 ETH using coinbase this week.  My plan is a long term hold just in case it goes crazy like BTC and its a small part of my portfolio I'm willing to risk big losses with.  My question - is it safe to keep in coinbase?

Thanks

I'll assuming your personal cyber-security is strong here (strong passwords, two-factor authentication enabled, secure browsing habits, etc), because if you're Coinbase account is ever compromised then someone could empty your wallet and you'd lose your funds with little recourse.

So assuming that isn't a concern (truthfully it should be though), then it mostly comes down to your risk appetite. The risk being how much do you trust Coinbase to continue to operate in the foreseeable future. They are one of the most reputable and largest exchanges around, so they are certainly very trust-worthy and have received tons of funding. There's also the risk that regulations in any given state could cause them to stop serving customers in those states, but usually in those cases they'll allow customers to withdraw funds until a certain deadline...but you never know.

Also, the above was all in regards to whether or not your ethereum is "safe". But "safe" could also mean ensuring your digital currency follows the proper blockchain. There is always the risk of a fork with digital currencies where changes to the code could cause blocks mined under those differences to create separate chains. In this case, because your crypto-currencies is held by an exchange, you technically don't own the private key to those coins. Therefore, you're at the mercy to how the exchange determines what chain the coins you own will follow. If they make the wrong choice or don't give you an option, then that could cause you to lose the value of your investment unnecessarily. Things like this can all be mitigated simply by owning your own private keys in a wallet you own.

The way I see it is Coinbase can be used similar to how you would a checking account. I keep some spending bitcoin in Coinbase each month and have a bitcoin debit card (Shift) linked to my Coinbase account that I use for spending. They make spending bitcoin directly with other merchants very easy. However, just like with a checking account, any large amount of funds that you don't see yourself spending for a long period of time, is it worth the given risks above? Especially considering that there is very little effort needed to completely mitigate that risk. That effort being to simply install some wallet software on your computer to store your bitcoin instead and then secure your wallet seed physically somewhere. So any money beyond what I see myself spending short-term I move to my personal wallet for long term safe-keeping.

I know you said you purchased ethereum, but the same idea applies.


TLDR: Coinbase is not a bank account for storing large sums of money. But for small funds or for spending money, then they're sufficient as long as you take the necessary cyber-security precautions.

Aggie1999

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #256 on: August 18, 2017, 08:21:33 AM »
Good advice by the previous poster. I'll re-enforce by saying that one should NEVER leave substantial coins in online wallets. Way to many instances in the past of the online wallet operators taking off with the money.

No clue on Ethereum but one of the safest ways to protect bitcoins is do an offline wallet on a computer never connected to the Internet. Put a strong password on that wallet and then print out the keys without a password and store the print out in a safe deposit box. That away if the off line computer gets stolen/destroyed/etc you can always recover. Also, if you kick the bucket whoever has access to your safe deposit box can recover using the print out without having to know the password.

effigy98

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #257 on: August 18, 2017, 06:48:12 PM »
Get a hardware wallet like with one of these: https://www.ledgerwallet.com/products/ledger-nano-s or print your wallet private keys on paper but not near any cameras or anything and put in a safe or safety deposit box. Hardware and paper is probably the most secure right now. Do not keep too much money on exchanges, that is what you always hear about when you see news about bitcoin hacks. Nobody hacks the actually blockchain/coins, its the exchanges.

Also there is a new bitcoin documentary on Netflix that is pretty interesting.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 06:50:20 PM by effigy98 »

Buckthundaz

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #258 on: August 18, 2017, 07:14:36 PM »
Any sentiments on BTC v. BCH  re: hash rate?

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #259 on: August 18, 2017, 08:03:33 PM »
Any sentiments on BTC v. BCH  re: hash rate?

A ton of overblown chatter going on, especially on Reddit, regarding BTC and BCH hashrate. Most of it isn't really even true. All kinds of crazy talk like miners are going to move over to BCH and BTC is going to come to a halt and fail. Meanwhile BTC hashrate is at an all time high. BCH will absolutely become more profitable to mine and its hashrate will increase as well, but not to the detriment of BTC. A lot of this nervous chatter is only happening because the BCH network is speeding up as the price climbs as well (driving mining profitability up), but meanwhile SegWit has yet to activate on the BTC network which will take place next week. Once that activates then the talk about BCH overtaking BTC will die down for sure.

Plus, to add to all the drama, the 2X BTC1 hardfork in November has received a lot of attention for BTC the last couple days. People just need to chill out though. November is still a ways out and a lot is going to be happening with BTC until then. So no need to get ahead of ourselves and talk about the possibility of another hardfork. The truth is that a lot of money is on the line for all the stakeholders in play and when it comes to running a business, they likely won't want to be doing anything that will jeopardize the value of the currency that their business depends on. So while some businesses may be pushing the idea of another hardfork, at this point in time it is still to early to determine what will happen.

In the end, after all this drama shakes out we will still have a solid BTC foundation that is resistant to any type of shake-up coming from a loud minority. This will only serve to drive the value of BTC up even further just like when BTC remained stable through the BCH hardfork.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 08:07:12 PM by lifeanon269 »

B_M

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #260 on: August 19, 2017, 09:55:09 AM »
What's folks opinion on cloud mining? It's pricked my interest but seems so straightforward I'm doubting it. Given the high cost of the coins at the moment it obviously seems good but just wondering what other folks think.
Been looking at this:
https://pool.bitcoin.com/index_en.html?
 

Roland of Gilead

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #261 on: August 19, 2017, 10:19:50 AM »
It seems that some company like Amazon could kill all of the other crypto-currencies in a relatively short time by coming up with their own version which is actually backed by Amazon store credit.   Amazon is so valuable to me right now that I would take $500 of Amazon credit in lei of $400 hard cash if I were selling someone a used lawnmower or something.  I know that Amazon already has gift cards but these are not as secure as a crypto-currency?  If Amazon developed an exchange like Coinbase and established their own crypto-currency, it would just shoot to first place.

maizeman

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #262 on: August 19, 2017, 11:57:29 AM »
It seems unlikely that cloud mining is ever going to be a way to turn an immediate profit because the folks building and maintaining the machine are generally only going to sell it to you if they figure you're paying more than they could make running it for themselves.* But there could always be exceptions, so that's a general analysis, not running the numbers on any particular scenario. It'd be interesting to compare the cost of one of these machines to buying hashrate on one of the 3rd party aggregators (like nicehash) where you can essentially rent out other people's miners on a minute by minute basis. Hopefully you're getting a much better deal by essentially committing to an indefinite contract.

OTOH, cloud mining (or any kind of mining) where you don't sell the coins as you mine them is one way to speculate that the cost of bitcoins will rise in the future. If that's your goal you could also take the amount of money you were going to spend on your remote mining rig and just buy the currency with it.

*And this assumes all parties are operating in good faith. There are always some stories about folks who either found they were getting much lower hashrates than promised (potentially running on shared rather than unique hardware), ran into long delays actually getting a machine deployed after paying for it and speculated that the company had been running the machine for their own use for a few months first, or companies that just completely vanish with all their servers when a big uptick in price makes mining more profitable. YMMV
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maizeman

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #263 on: August 19, 2017, 03:07:15 PM »
So embarrassingly my idea build a mining income for income seems to have been a quite poor one, while holding cryptocurrency has really paid off in the last month. Had to reset my y-axis and move the legend to the other side of the graph to make room for all the capital appreciation.



Recent flatness of the mining income line reflects my main miner going down for most of the last week while I was out of town. I'm now in the black overall for the experiment in cryptocurrencies, although as will be explained below, that is really in spite of my attempt to be a miner rather than because of it. ;-)

maizeman I was thinking about your mining experiment, what would it look like if you added a line to account for mining income minus opportunity cost of the hardware? Not sure what the fair equivalent would be, if you sunk the equivalent cost of the hardware into the same coin you mine at the beginning and let it appreciate perhaps

So I started out with approx. ~$1,130 in leftover bitcoins and spent ~$1,430 on my mining equipment in early June. Let's leave aside the existing bitcoin holdings (which are really the only thing that pulled my portfolio into the black).

Right now my mining income is worth $1,050 (so -$380 in the hole).*

If I'd spent the money for my mining gear on bitcoins, I'd have $2,950 today ($1,520 in capital gains, plus initial principal).**
If I'd spent the money for my mining gear on zcash, I'd have $1,320 (-$110 in capital capital losses, plus initial principal).
If I'd spent the money for my mining gear on an S&P index fund I'd have $1,430 (essentially my initial principal)

Now mining continues to be profitable for my machine even net of electricity costs and may well remain so for several months (or maybe even into the winter), so it is quite possible that I'll catch up to the "just buy a buy of zcash" or "be a responsible person and sweep your excess hobby money into your stash to buy index funds." It's quite unlikely I'll catch up to "put it all on bitcoins" but if I'm being honest with myself about my state of mind in early June I was much more excited about zcash than bitcoin so the second scenario was a more likely outcome than the first. Easy with the benefit of hindsight, huh?

*If I'd been selling my mining income as it came in I'd have $530 ($900 in the hole).
**Includes the value of bitcoin cash in addition to bitcoin for bitcoins held in private wallets on the day of the fork.
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bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #264 on: August 19, 2017, 11:14:16 PM »
How does one justify the environmental impact of mining?  I've read that processing BTC transactions takes 1000x+ the power of processing a credit card transaction.  It seems like an anti-mustachian way to make money for this reason.

OneCoolCat

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #265 on: August 20, 2017, 04:41:06 PM »
What happens if you lose or break your hardware wallet?
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waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #266 on: August 20, 2017, 05:19:25 PM »
How does one justify the environmental impact of mining?  I've read that processing BTC transactions takes 1000x+ the power of processing a credit card transaction.  It seems like an anti-mustachian way to make money for this reason.

In the context of your (developed world) lifestyle, it's probably not real meaningful. Is it a waste of electricity? Yes. Is it worse than, say, mining gold (another hoardable "asset")? Certainly not!

-W

Roland of Gilead

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #267 on: August 20, 2017, 07:22:53 PM »
If it drives technology and creates some new inventions or faster processors then the energy consumption might be worth it in the long run anyway.

CanuckExpat

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #268 on: August 20, 2017, 08:33:57 PM »
I've thought about that myself with my own mining as well. With the huge gains that Bitcoin has seen over the last several months, it is hard for mining to keep up with compared to if you had simply investing the up front costs in Bitcoin itself instead of the equipment (I think that's what your getting at).

However, it is hard to (or at least unfair to) calculate in the short term because in the long term mining will win out so long as you are able to mine back all the Bitcoin you spent on the equipment and then some. As long as you can mine back all the Bitcoin spent on your equipment plus a little more, then you'll be able to realize the gains you originally missed out on plus all future gains of the asset if you continue to hold.

@CanuckExpat, it's a good question. I'm out of town all week but would be interesting to run the numbers once I am back on my home computer. Could compare to putting the same amount of money I spent on mining equipment right into the cyptocurrency (right now I know I'd come out way behind just because bitcoin has been on a big run up in price), or into stock/bond index funds.

One important question to resolve, would you say it makes more sense to only consider the potential increase/decrease in value of the investment, or the total value of the investment? The money I spent building my miner is gone (maybe I could get a couple of hundred bucks for the parts if I wanted to mess around on ebay), which my charts show me starting off more than $1,000 in the hole. For an investment in the currencies themselves (or a stock index fund) I'd still be able to get my original investment out at any time (less any capital losses).

@lifeanon

Your analysis assumes that the mining is being uses as a method of buying bitcoins (or other currencies) which lumps together two very different financial questions: whether it makes financial sense to mine BTC/ETH/ZEC/etc and whether it makes sense to hold BTC/ETH/ZEC for appreciation. I'm currently doing some of both, but it could very easily be that once we're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight, one (either one) will have made financial sense and the other did not. So I'm trying to separate out the two effects as I go along.

I think you are both right, and this is a trickier question to answer than I thought. What is the best alternative..
It's easy-ish to answer in hindsight, but that's not a fair comparison. It might turn out to be different for each person depending on your goals.

If your goal is to accumulate as much BTC/ETH/ZEC as possible and hold onto it indefinitely, then lifeanon makes a good point, that you will presumably "break even" at some point as long as you can mine back the cost of your hardware in that currency. It means you should measure and plot your y-axis in that currency, and the time period to break even is really a shift of the x-axis (assuming mining difficulty doesn't get prohibitively harder as you wait, I don't know enough about mining to think about this).

If your ultimate goal is to maximize USD (or other fiat currency) by accumulating and then selling cryptocurrency at any arbitrary point in time, which is what I think maizeman is implicitly getting at since his y-axis is in USD, then a "fair" comparison might be buying the equivalent of your mining hardware in that cryptocurrency and tracking the appreciation in USD to that arbitrary point. If you wait long enough that you would have mined it back anyways, I suppose you still break even just with much less liquidity.

So I'm not sure what is the right answer. Opportunity cost is hard.
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Bicycle_B

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #269 on: August 20, 2017, 08:34:17 PM »
Maizeman, continued thanks for the clarity of your experiments and reporting.

bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #270 on: August 20, 2017, 09:25:40 PM »
How does one justify the environmental impact of mining?  I've read that processing BTC transactions takes 1000x+ the power of processing a credit card transaction.  It seems like an anti-mustachian way to make money for this reason.

In the context of your (developed world) lifestyle, it's probably not real meaningful. Is it a waste of electricity? Yes. Is it worse than, say, mining gold (another hoardable "asset")? Certainly not!

-W

I reject that answer as it's deflecting the question.  I've done some further research and will restate my concerns in more detail below:

How can we justify the environmental impact of mining Bitcoin and other Crypto-currencies?

Some interesting statistics show the massive scale of Bitcoin's power consumption*:
  • Bitcoin mining consumes about 30x the power of the entire VISA network (offices excluded).
  • Bitcoin mining consumes more power than the entire countries of Iceland, Jordan, or Syria.
  • Worldwide Bitcoin mining power is close to 0.4% of total power consumption in the USA.
  • A single bitcoin transaction consumes enough to power an average US home for 5 days

This is a fundamental flaw in Bitcoin (and other crypto) architecture.  The security of the network is dependent on the high complexity (and high power consumption) of the calculations involved in processing transactions. 

Currently, bitcoin accounts for a tiny but growing piece of the worldwide currency usage.  Imagine what could happen as transaction volume grows by 10x, or 100x?  (Transaction volume is what consumes the power, not the price of a Bitcoin).  This seems entirely possible, if not likely, given the hash rate has grown by 4x in the past year alone.

Another issue compounding the problem is the increasing value of Bitcoin.  This is driving more mining capacity to come online, which has the effect of driving the mining difficulty up.  Increased difficulty will only serve to push the power consumption higher.  So generally the higher the value of a bitcoin, the higher power the bitcoin mining network will consume.

A big part of MMM philosophy is about efficiency and sustainability.  It's hard to justify burning up enough juice to power 5 homes for a day every time we want to make a transaction using Bitcoin.  In the US, we are finally starting to see measurable declines in power consumption due to technological advances, it's unfortunate to see rapid adoption of a technology that is going so far in the wrong direction.

Interesting articles:
https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ae3p7e/bitcoin-is-unsustainable
https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

*Some of the stats vary based on different calculation methods and the constant change in mining hash-rate.  Note the trends all show that the power consumption is increasing.

bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #271 on: August 20, 2017, 09:40:34 PM »
If it drives technology and creates some new inventions or faster processors then the energy consumption might be worth it in the long run anyway.

I don't think the ends will justify the means in this case.  I think many don't understand the massive scale of power going into cryptocurrencies right now.  That's why I wrote the above post.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #272 on: August 20, 2017, 10:29:33 PM »
Maizeman, et al

If a company has large inhouse computing capacity that is (say) not being used to full capacity 24/7, is there any value to getting the under utilised compute capacity to mine bitcoins while otherwise idle? We also generate our own power, btw.

My company does a lot of computing, but it won't of course be those specialised mining hardware set ups...
Mr. Mark

effigy98

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #273 on: August 21, 2017, 06:18:19 AM »
What happens if you lose or break your hardware wallet?

You get a new one and put in your secret key you wrote down and put in your safe. BAM! New hardware wallet with same addresses.

effigy98

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #274 on: August 21, 2017, 06:21:38 AM »
If it drives technology and creates some new inventions or faster processors then the energy consumption might be worth it in the long run anyway.

I don't think the ends will justify the means in this case.  I think many don't understand the massive scale of power going into cryptocurrencies right now.  That's why I wrote the above post.

It takes 100s of people to verify a "normal" old world money transactions. If you added up the commutes, individual consumption, compute power they use to move those bits around, etc... You are most likely coming out at least even, but probably much more ahead on crypto currencies then traditional credit cards, bank transfers, western union, etc. The point of gold is a good one as well.

Buy something at the store with your visa. There are a lot of people and computers behind the scenes that process that transaction, record it to ledgers, etc.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 06:25:46 AM by effigy98 »

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #275 on: August 21, 2017, 06:46:47 AM »
Currently, bitcoin accounts for a tiny but growing piece of the worldwide currency usage.  Imagine what could happen as transaction volume grows by 10x, or 100x?  (Transaction volume is what consumes the power, not the price of a Bitcoin).  This seems entirely possible, if not likely, given the hash rate has grown by 4x in the past year alone.


No doubt the energy consumption of bitcoin is massive at the moment. The problem however is that the energy consumption of bitcoin is always measured in energy spent per transaction. That type of calculation isn't exactly the most fair to bitcoin. However, it is one of the only common metrics we have between bitcoin and the VISA network, for example. So that is what generally gets used as a comparison.

The reason why it is unfair to measure energy consumption on a per transaction basis with bitcoin is because of the fact that the amount of energy consumed is the same whether there are 4,000 transactions in a block or there are 20,000. It is the work put into hashing the transaction block that consumes energy, not the input to the block that matters. That means that as the network scales, it will inevitably become more energy efficient as time goes on. Contrast that with your typical backend database solution (any non-blockchain system) and you get the opposite effect; the more the network grows the more energy it consumes.

Furthermore, with SegWit being enabled, the possibility for the Lightning Network to play a role in payment transactions will allow the bitcoin network to scale dramatically while being able to do so with the equivalent compute power of a home desktop PC. That will allow way more transactions to be processed with a much lower energy footprint than today. That being said, the bitcoin blockchain would still be confirming payment channel transactions and so the network would still need to scale more from a transaction and energy perspective.

I do feel in the case the ends justifies the means. Bitcoin has the opportunity to create a ton of social good in the world where power over money corrupts. Furthermore, because of bitcoin's inherent need for efficiency when it comes to mining profitability, that means that bitcoin will be a main driver toward lower cost renewable electricity (we're already seeing that). The fact that bitcoin consumes electricity means that its transition toward clean energy is destined to be, unlike say the transportation industry that will require dramatic infrastructure changes. So as we solve our world's energy problems, bitcoin will be right there adopting energy solutions that will allow the network as a whole to become more and more sustainable. Planning for power is something that is done at the earliest stages of bringing a mining operation online which isn't something you see in many industries today where power consumption is an afterthought.

The biggest problem I see with bitcoin (with regards to energy consumption) is the fact that bitcoin's greatest energy demands come at a time when its energy sources will be the dirtiest in bitcoin's lifetime.

TLDR: Bitcoin's inherent need for lower power consumption above all else to achieve mining profitability means that the power problem for bitcoin will ultimately solve itself in the long run. Not using a system that has potential for so much social good is short-sighted given this fact. As the world adopts electronic payment systems, a blockchain based approach is much more energy efficient than traditional systems at scaling over the long term.

waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #276 on: August 21, 2017, 08:51:59 AM »
I would agree with all of that with the caveat that Bitcoin isn't (and probably never will be) "money" in the sense that it's widely used for transactions. The inherently deflationary design IMO ensures that it will instead be a gold-like store of value (assuming it's anything at all in the long run, it could of course be abandoned for some other crypto system).

So the proper comparison, environmentally, is probably to physical gold.

-W

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #277 on: August 21, 2017, 10:01:53 AM »
I would agree with all of that with the caveat that Bitcoin isn't (and probably never will be) "money" in the sense that it's widely used for transactions. The inherently deflationary design IMO ensures that it will instead be a gold-like store of value (assuming it's anything at all in the long run, it could of course be abandoned for some other crypto system).

So the proper comparison, environmentally, is probably to physical gold.

-W

For what its worth, gold was used as a universal currency for centuries. The reason why we moved toward paper money was due to convenience. It's not as easy to carry around a sack of gold coins as it is a wallet with folded money.

Bitcoin combines the value of gold with the convenience of electronic transactions.

Whether or not you believe any deflationary currency is good for the economy is another topic of economics altogether. I believe the world is in desperate need for a non-manipulative deflationary currency. The fact that it is extremely convenient to use will help ensure its mainstream adoption.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #278 on: August 21, 2017, 03:09:03 PM »
@bender

As lifeanon has also talked about, while you can certainly calculate an average energy cost per transaction for bitcoin by dividing the number of transactions by the amount of power consumed, the marginal energy cost of each bitcoin transaction is essentially zero.

Energy use scales with the total network hashrate, not with the number of transactions. Consider the case of bitcoin cash. Up to 8x as many transactions per block, and only 1/10th as high a hashrate. So right now the energy cost per transaction of bitcoin cash is 1/80th that of bitcoin itself or ~12.5x the cost of a visa transaction.* Continued increases in transaction scale per block have the potential to reduce average energy use per transaction further, and if something like proof of stake ends up in a widely adopted cryptocurrency, that would reduce power useage even more.

@Mr Mark

For bitcoin proper, it is likely that even with essentially "free" computer hardware, if you're using CPUs the amount of income you get from mining wouldn't be worth the extra wear and tear on your servers. If the company had a GPU heavy server farm and/or was interested in mining various altcoins where mining isn't dominated by custom fabricated ASICs built specifically for mining as has happened to bitcoin, it might prove to be a profitable way to use up idle compute cycles.

@Bicycle_B

Thank you, it makes me happy to hear the ongoing reports from my little experiment are of interest.

*Based on the statement about bitcoin using 1000x as much energy per transaction as visa.
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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #279 on: August 21, 2017, 03:13:26 PM »
We will have to agree to disagree on the deflationary part. If I were designing my libertarian fantasy currency, it would probably have some very slight inflation built in, just for the sake of keeping money moving through the system (not to mention preventing deflationary spiral sort of problems).

Regardless, Bitcoin is a LONG way from being used as a currency in any meaningful sense. The recent rise in popularity/price has certainly caused a lot of folks to buy fancy mining rigs and hoard their bitcoins, but that's not the same as walking to the store and getting a bag of apples. I know a few folks (normal folks who aren't interested in buying illegal Chinese drugs or whatever) who have bitcoin holdings and they look at me like I'm crazy if I suggest they could *purchase* something - there is no chance in hell they'll spend them, ever (though if the price drops enough, they'll panic-sell them!)

That's not a great setup for widespread adoption as currency. But I've been wrong before.

-W

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #280 on: August 21, 2017, 03:25:18 PM »
Thanks Maizeman - good to hear there is a solution in the future.  In it's current state Bitcoin is using an irresponsible amount of energy.  I hope they make a big change soon - the 2x upgrade won't be enough.


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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #281 on: August 22, 2017, 06:41:42 AM »
Regardless, Bitcoin is a LONG way from being used as a currency in any meaningful sense. The recent rise in popularity/price has certainly caused a lot of folks to buy fancy mining rigs and hoard their bitcoins, but that's not the same as walking to the store and getting a bag of apples. I know a few folks (normal folks who aren't interested in buying illegal Chinese drugs or whatever) who have bitcoin holdings and they look at me like I'm crazy if I suggest they could *purchase* something - there is no chance in hell they'll spend them, ever (though if the price drops enough, they'll panic-sell them!)

That's not a great setup for widespread adoption as currency. But I've been wrong before.

-W

What do you mean by "not a great setup"? The hurdle to POS usage is merchant adoption, not the userbase.

A large portion of people putting money into bitcoin are simply doing so with their expendable or investable income. This is money that, if it weren't in bitcoin, would likely be in some other investment where it wouldn't be getting used for POS transactions there either. So the reason for that money not being spent isn't because the money is in bitcoin, but rather simply because the money that is being put into bitcoin is non-spending money to begin with.

That being said, once merchant adoption takes place (its only a matter of time), then given the fact that bitcoin is extremely liquid, the money will be right there available from the user base ready to be spent.

In the meantime, we have ample amount of bridge technologies using existing networks to help people spend their bitcoins if they need to. For example, for myself, I have a bitcoin debit card that allows me to keep my spending money in bitcoin up until the point in time when I spend it at a store. I simply move my paycheck into bitcoin and then use my debit card to spend it where ever I want. This allows me to dollar cost average bitcoin with my after-tax income. Considering bitcoin doubled over the last couple of months, this has allowed me to effectively double my take home pay. When taking this approach, using bitcoin doesn't cause someone to avoid spending, but simply be able to save more than they'd otherwise be able to. All it takes is a merchant to accept bitcoin and I can then simply cut out the middle-man (VISA) and pay directly with bitcoin to the benefit of both the merchant and I.

This leads me to my final point about deflation. The fear of a deflationary spiral with bitcoin is unfounded. Deflationary spirals can occur with traditional centrally manipulated fiat currencies because they are unpredictable. With bitcoin, at the point where deflation actually kicks in (a long time from now), deflation will be consistent and expected. That means that people won't forgo spending in favor of hoarding because of the knowledge that the bitcoin that they'd earn tomorrow will have the same deflationary properties as the bitcoin that they'd be spending today. We see this every day. If someone wants a new iPhone, then history shows that they'll purchase that iPhone when they want it even if it means that they'll save more money by simply delaying their purchase of it. While this isn't deflationary economics at play, it is consumer behavior economics. This consumerism will still be alive in a deflationary economic model. That means that regardless of whether or not the currency being used is inflationary or deflationary, consumers will still choose to purchase the goods they want over delaying that purchase even if it means they'll save more money in the long run.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #282 on: August 22, 2017, 07:38:57 AM »
Lifeanon, would you mind pointing me towards the service that provides your bitcoin denominated debt card? I remember hearing some folks talk about those as a possibility years ago, but hadn't realized they were actually out in the wild already. Does the company providing the service take a significant chunk out of either your deposits or spending as fees? Recently found out the city where I live already has a "bitcoin atm" where folks can either deposit cash to purchase bitcoins or convert their bitcoins to dollars and instantaneously withdraw as cash. Fees are ... unfavorable to say the least though.

WRT deflation/inflation, the change in the absolute money supply of bitcoin is going to be very predictable over time. That doesn't necessarily mean that rates of inflation/deflation will also remain fixed, because changes in the velocity of money (how often the average bitcoin/euro/RMB/dollar is spent) can produce significant increases or decreases in the effective money supply. In good times people tend to spend more of the money they make and spend it quickly, so the effective money supply increases, creating inflation. In bad times, people tend to hold on to their money for much longer and build up emergency funds because they're worried about their next paycheck, decreasing the money supply and either reducing inflation or causing deflation.

Now to be fair, I should add that hyperinflation, which generally occurs when a government starts printing new money to service its debt, driving up inflation and hence interest rates which requires more money be printed to service the debt, is basically impossible with a cryptocurrency, but I did want to make the point that deflationary spirals are still quite possible with bitcoin or bitcoin like currencies (and remember the initial deflationary spiral of the great depression occurred with a gold-backed currency where the government really had very little power to increase or decrease the money supply).
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waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #283 on: August 22, 2017, 07:46:35 AM »
I was not going to bring the great depression into this, but yes, Maizeman makes my point quite well. There are advantages to not having a central authority control the money supply (no hyperinflation) but we need to recognize that there are also HUGE disadvantages WRT the business cycle and the ability of a central authority to mitigate downside risks through currency manipulation.

Now, you might think the gov't does a shitty job of that. I'm not sure I'd disagree. But doing a shitty job of it might still very well be better than nobody doing the job at all.

-W

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #284 on: August 22, 2017, 09:48:16 AM »
Lifeanon, would you mind pointing me towards the service that provides your bitcoin denominated debit card?

The card I use is the Shift card. They have a partnership with Coinbase that allows you to spend your bitcoin residing in Coinbase using this card. So I just keep my small amount of spending money each month in Coinbase (the rest in a private wallet) so that I can spend my bitcoin just like I would with a checking account. The awesome part is that there are no transaction fees involved. There is a one time $10 fee to purchase the card and then there are $2.50 ATM withdrawal fees (just like about every VISA card out there), but I don't really use it at any ATMs so that is not a big deal. That's it. No annual fee either. The cool thing as well though is that it functions just like any other debit card. So in cases where I'm at the store and pay with the card as "debit", then if the store allows it, I can ask for cash back if I need it. That allows me to instantly turn my bitcoin back into USD cash without paying any conversion/transaction fees at all.

https://www.shiftpayments.com/card/

There are a few other bitcoin debit cards out there, but most of them are prepaid cards that store the value on the card in USD as opposed to bitcoin. So you only receive the value of your bitcoin at the time you load the card. I didn't like that approach and most of those have many additional fees to them as well.

I was not going to bring the great depression into this, but yes, Maizeman makes my point quite well. There are advantages to not having a central authority control the money supply (no hyperinflation) but we need to recognize that there are also HUGE disadvantages WRT the business cycle and the ability of a central authority to mitigate downside risks through currency manipulation.

WRT to inflation/deflation, don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to oversimplify the economy down to just the money supply policy alone. There are other factors for sure that come into play when it comes to what contributes to market ups and downs. But the argument that there are outside forces that contribute to the effective money supply (such as fractional-reserve banking) is hardly an argument against having a decentralized non-manipulated deflationary currency. Any given type of currency isn't going to solve all the woes of a very complex economy.

The thing about bitcoin however isn't that it is necessarily forever static and can't be changed. It is the fact that it is decentralized and gives the power to a majority of its users instead of a powerful minority. In other words, if we got into a situation where the currency itself was what was holding our economy back (again, highly unlikely), then the currency (bitcoin) could only be changed if the benefit of that change received support from the community as a whole. This is where the idea of social good comes from with regards to bitcoin. But as was stated, it is highly unlikely that bitcoin's inherent nature will be the root culprit of any future economic perils and it will be more than likely that other destructive economic forces will be at play. Those other forces could be everything from fractional-reserve banking (that inherently leads to recessions at regular intervals), horrible lending practices, large-scale speculative bubbles, etc.

Finally, for what it is worth (since the depression was thrown out there), economists looked throughout American history and found that, outside of the Great Depression, there is no correlation between depression/recession and deflation (Atkeson, Andrew and Kehoe, Patrick. Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis. Deflation and Depression: Is There an Empirical Link? January 2004). Yes, deflation made what took place with the Great Depression worse, but it wasn't and can't be the cause of it. For example, defaulting loans during an economic hardship can have the same effect as a contracting money supply that presents itself in a recession, but that doesn't mean that the resulting deflationary pattern was a root cause that gave way to that recession. The idea that deflation hinders economic growth is completely baseless.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 09:51:49 AM by lifeanon269 »

waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #285 on: August 22, 2017, 10:34:15 AM »
Yeah, agree to disagree. IMO anything used as "money" (for exchange) needs to grow in supply sufficiently that hoarding it is never a good strategy (encourages investing, which is good, and consumption, which has positives and negatives). If you use your extra money to invest in... itself, that's not especially useful economically.

Bitcoin as constituted is mostly being hoarded, and the design of the system encourages this behavior. I don't see the current population of bitcoin owners (who as far as I can tell are speculators) agreeing to any major change that would increase the supply. Maybe that will change, but I'd bet on another crypto currency that is better designed winning out if we're talking about something used to facilitate exchange. I think bitcoin can survive long term as a substitute for gold - which of course you can also spend. Like gold, though, people generally won't spend it in everyday transactions.

-W

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #286 on: August 22, 2017, 11:06:05 AM »
Yeah, agree to disagree. IMO anything used as "money" (for exchange) needs to grow in supply sufficiently that hoarding it is never a good strategy (encourages investing, which is good, and consumption, which has positives and negatives). If you use your extra money to invest in... itself, that's not especially useful economically.

Bitcoin as constituted is mostly being hoarded, and the design of the system encourages this behavior.

Bitcoin is only being invested in itself because of the fact that it has the potential to become the groundwork for a new global economy. Therefore, those investing in it now will be paid dividends for being early adopters. If, however, bitcoin does become a fabric of our global economy, then it will reach a point where its volatility and rapid rise in price will be greatly diminished. The idea that bitcoin could be mainstream while at the same time producing the returns we see today is false. At that point, individuals using it as a long term investment seeking gains will be a disappointed when compared with traditional investments in businesses that produce a profit.

Gold is not a good investment, it is a hedge against riskier but more profitable investments. The only reason why people don't spend their gold is because of the fact that it isn't convenient or liquid enough to spend. Therefore we resort to spending our dollars instead, but those dollars lose value over time. This loss of value impacts lower/middle class citizens more than it does the rich since a larger percentage of their income and net worth exists in USD. Having a currency that protects against this will help preserve the wealth of a larger portion of our population. This will have a huge impact on the distribution of wealth and the end result will be a much more stable economy. If however the economy were to go belly up do to poor economic policies or corporate greed (resulting in those riskier investments declining), then having a decentralized currency that citizens could flock to as a safe haven would be just what the world would need to help preserve the wealth of our most at risk populations. On the other side of that catastrophe would be citizens ready and willing to reinvest their preserved wealth into companies resilient enough to turn a profit. In fact, our next economic recession is when we'll see bitcoin's most important role become immediately apparent.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:13:36 PM by lifeanon269 »

waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #287 on: August 22, 2017, 12:44:25 PM »
I disagree with basically all of that, but I don't think there's much point arguing about it further. Regardless, it will be interesting to see what develops over the next few decades.

-W

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #288 on: August 22, 2017, 01:27:41 PM »
Hey all, glad the discussion is going well.

I want to let everyone know that IOTA is something you want to do some research on while the market cap is still under-valued.

Cheers!

effigy98

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #289 on: August 23, 2017, 02:36:51 PM »
Hey all, glad the discussion is going well.

I want to let everyone know that IOTA is something you want to do some research on while the market cap is still under-valued.

Cheers!

CNBC just mentioned IOTA on building a crypto portfolio.
https://twitter.com/CNBCFastMoney/status/897945479224446977

OneCoolCat

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #290 on: August 23, 2017, 08:09:29 PM »
Lifeanon, would you mind pointing me towards the service that provides your bitcoin denominated debit card?

The card I use is the Shift card. They have a partnership with Coinbase that allows you to spend your bitcoin residing in Coinbase using this card. So I just keep my small amount of spending money each month in Coinbase (the rest in a private wallet) so that I can spend my bitcoin just like I would with a checking account. The awesome part is that there are no transaction fees involved. There is a one time $10 fee to purchase the card and then there are $2.50 ATM withdrawal fees (just like about every VISA card out there), but I don't really use it at any ATMs so that is not a big deal. That's it. No annual fee either. The cool thing as well though is that it functions just like any other debit card. So in cases where I'm at the store and pay with the card as "debit", then if the store allows it, I can ask for cash back if I need it. That allows me to instantly turn my bitcoin back into USD cash without paying any conversion/transaction fees at all.

https://www.shiftpayments.com/card/

There are a few other bitcoin debit cards out there, but most of them are prepaid cards that store the value on the card in USD as opposed to bitcoin. So you only receive the value of your bitcoin at the time you load the card. I didn't like that approach and most of those have many additional fees to them as well.

I was not going to bring the great depression into this, but yes, Maizeman makes my point quite well. There are advantages to not having a central authority control the money supply (no hyperinflation) but we need to recognize that there are also HUGE disadvantages WRT the business cycle and the ability of a central authority to mitigate downside risks through currency manipulation.

WRT to inflation/deflation, don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to oversimplify the economy down to just the money supply policy alone. There are other factors for sure that come into play when it comes to what contributes to market ups and downs. But the argument that there are outside forces that contribute to the effective money supply (such as fractional-reserve banking) is hardly an argument against having a decentralized non-manipulated deflationary currency. Any given type of currency isn't going to solve all the woes of a very complex economy.

The thing about bitcoin however isn't that it is necessarily forever static and can't be changed. It is the fact that it is decentralized and gives the power to a majority of its users instead of a powerful minority. In other words, if we got into a situation where the currency itself was what was holding our economy back (again, highly unlikely), then the currency (bitcoin) could only be changed if the benefit of that change received support from the community as a whole. This is where the idea of social good comes from with regards to bitcoin. But as was stated, it is highly unlikely that bitcoin's inherent nature will be the root culprit of any future economic perils and it will be more than likely that other destructive economic forces will be at play. Those other forces could be everything from fractional-reserve banking (that inherently leads to recessions at regular intervals), horrible lending practices, large-scale speculative bubbles, etc.

Finally, for what it is worth (since the depression was thrown out there), economists looked throughout American history and found that, outside of the Great Depression, there is no correlation between depression/recession and deflation (Atkeson, Andrew and Kehoe, Patrick. Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis. Deflation and Depression: Is There an Empirical Link? January 2004). Yes, deflation made what took place with the Great Depression worse, but it wasn't and can't be the cause of it. For example, defaulting loans during an economic hardship can have the same effect as a contracting money supply that presents itself in a recession, but that doesn't mean that the resulting deflationary pattern was a root cause that gave way to that recession. The idea that deflation hinders economic growth is completely baseless.

Why would you spend your BTC?!?!? 

LOL JK.

Personally I hodl though.
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OneCoolCat

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #291 on: August 23, 2017, 08:10:43 PM »
Hey all, glad the discussion is going well.

I want to let everyone know that IOTA is something you want to do some research on while the market cap is still under-valued.

Cheers!

The problem with IOTA is that noone actually knows how it works.  WTF is tangle?
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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #292 on: August 23, 2017, 11:22:34 PM »
Hey all, glad the discussion is going well.

I want to let everyone know that IOTA is something you want to do some research on while the market cap is still under-valued.

Cheers!

The problem with IOTA is that noone actually knows how it works.  WTF is tangle?

A graph with a start and an end (but not necessarily followed in sequence).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_acyclic_graph

My first thought about IOTA is that, holy shit, it would gobble up RAM like nothing else.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 11:24:25 PM by bacchi »

Tonyahu

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #293 on: August 24, 2017, 01:09:16 PM »
Hey all, glad the discussion is going well.

I want to let everyone know that IOTA is something you want to do some research on while the market cap is still under-valued.

Cheers!

The problem with IOTA is that noone actually knows how it works.  WTF is tangle?

A graph with a start and an end (but not necessarily followed in sequence).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_acyclic_graph

My first thought about IOTA is that, holy shit, it would gobble up RAM like nothing else.

It is already optimized to be able to be ran on a regular smart phone, long term they want it to require as minimal processing for the "work" as possible.

Long term, I expect to see commercial Drones flying around us and landing on wireless charging stations (sharing economy) and payment will be done in IOTA :]

maizeman

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #294 on: August 24, 2017, 03:57:24 PM »
So on here IOTA has a volume to market cap ratio of <1%, while a lot of other currencies in the top 10 seem to be more in the 2-4% range. Does anyone know of structural reasons for this to be the case or is it just a random piece of statistical noise?
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lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #295 on: August 25, 2017, 05:57:04 AM »
So on here IOTA has a volume to market cap ratio of <1%, while a lot of other currencies in the top 10 seem to be more in the 2-4% range. Does anyone know of structural reasons for this to be the case or is it just a random piece of statistical noise?

Ya, that's one of my biggest concerns with IOTA. It isn't very liquid at the moment and almost all trading for it (> 90%) takes place on just one exchange. I would never feel comfortable putting more than just a few bucks in it. That being said, a few bucks in it might totally be worth it.

effigy98

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #296 on: August 25, 2017, 09:44:20 AM »
That exchange does not let me register. I have no way to trade for it even if I wanted to.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #297 on: August 25, 2017, 11:15:48 AM »
So on here IOTA has a volume to market cap ratio of <1%, while a lot of other currencies in the top 10 seem to be more in the 2-4% range. Does anyone know of structural reasons for this to be the case or is it just a random piece of statistical noise?

Ya, that's one of my biggest concerns with IOTA. It isn't very liquid at the moment and almost all trading for it (> 90%) takes place on just one exchange. I would never feel comfortable putting more than just a few bucks in it. That being said, a few bucks in it might totally be worth it.

New exchanges will be added soon, I see it settling around $1 when that happens

That exchange does not let me register. I have no way to trade for it even if I wanted to.

Bitfinex no longer allows US Customers

Padonak

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #298 on: August 27, 2017, 01:08:47 PM »
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daverobev

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #299 on: August 27, 2017, 05:06:44 PM »
I have... 0.02 Bitcoin from a free signup thing a couple of years ago, that I'd not thought about until I read this thread.

Apparently that's about $86 USD.

As a Canadian resident - what's the easiest way of getting this 'out' somehow? It's currently on Circle.

Can I transfer it to Paypal (I have both a US and Canadian account)? Google Play Credit?
Lending Loop - Peer to Peer Lending for Canadians - $25 sign up bonus

My current yield is about 13%, but who knows. Loans do go bad. Caveat Emptor and all that.