Author Topic: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion  (Read 9653 times)

OneCoolCat

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2017, 09:00:51 AM »
I haven't messed around at all with underclocking. Do you find that it makes a significant difference in your power consumption?

Back when electricity was only 10% of my mining income, it seemed like it wasn't a great trade off to spend time trying to optimize power consumption, but if current trends continue I imagine it's something I'll want to explore more.

Definitely.  I can get each of my 6 gpu's to mine Ether with an additional 3mh/s by reducing power to 65% from 100% (default settings) and increasing memory.  My rig consumes 520 watts and gets 141mh/s Ether and 1080 mh/s SC.  My SC hash is lower when dual mining because my cards are only 3gb.  I haven't measured its power consumption above 65% power but the difference between 60 and 65% was 28 watts an each card gained .5% Ether mh/s.  If prices continue to plummet i will adjust it down to 60%.

I'm not sure if this is true but I've read AMD's are not stable when underclocked.  I underclock 6x GTX 1060's.
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StudentEngineer

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2017, 02:09:43 PM »
I purchased 16 ethereum coins in november at ~$12 a coin then got fed up with the price moving sideways as btc took off from $600 to $2k+ and sold out at $12 or $13 then it took off to nearly $400..... If only I had put a couple thousand on eth at $12/coin.... thats a life changing amount of gains...

My biggest problem is that I don't understand the true fundamentals behind it.  I would have no idea how safe any coin is or how easy it would be for them to split etc... thus its extremely difficult to hold as it drops.

Any helpful info on that?
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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2017, 02:32:34 PM »
What if is a very dangerous road to go down. I remember reading about bitcoin on slashdot years before it crossed the dollar parity threshold. This was back in the era before GPU mining, so all it would have taken was installing mining software on the old HTPC that've followed me through a half dozen moves to accumulate a non-trivial number of bitcoins. The second "what if" for me was back in early 2013, when I started to get excited about bitcoins for the first time (price was around $100/bitcoin), I figured out I could squeeze maybe $500/month out of my budget to start accumulating some but didn't end up following through for lots of silly reasons.

The thing to remember is that you make decisions with the time with the information you have at the time. Just because a decision turned out to have good or bad consequences with the benefit of hindsight doesn't tell you whether it was good or bad decision with the information you had at the time you made it.

My biggest problem is that I don't understand the true fundamentals behind it.  I would have no idea how safe any coin is or how easy it would be for them to split etc... thus its extremely difficult to hold as it drops.

Any helpful info on that?

In terms of safety, any particular cryptocurrency could go to zero (or close enough to zero so as to make no difference). That's the nature of currencies, they have value only because we all agree they do. Of course you could say the same of any non-crypto currency as well. In this way all currencies are different from stocks or commodities.

Unlike USD or RMB or Euros, there is also a chance the value of cryptocurrencies will increase 10x or maybe even 100x. How likely is zeroing out compared to the likelihood of increasing in price by, say, 10x or more for a given cryptocurrency? If I knew that I'd be rich.
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redstar

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2017, 02:38:08 PM »
I am currently holding a bit in ETH, BTC, and LTC because they were easy to acquire with just GDAX and Coinbase. However, I'm looking to create a DIY index fund of currencies by market cap. The services that will handle this for me, like Shapeshift's Prism and ICONOMI aren't out to the public yet, so I figure I might do it myself by buying the top 10-20 coins.

The rebalancing would suck though.

maizeman

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2017, 02:58:03 PM »
Interesting idea. Would you just go with the top twenty entries on this list? (https://coinmarketcap.com) I'd be temped to weed out currencies like ripple and bitshares that are really using blockchain technology to do something really different, but I don't know if that'd help or hurt over the long term.

If you do a cap weighted index, you shouldn't have to do much rebalancing at all, should you?
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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2017, 03:14:10 PM »
Yes, something like that. I'm tempted to weed out certain coins that I don't believe in, but I may just be overconfident, so I feel like I should trust the index.

Rebalancing within the index shouldn't be a problem with market cap weighting (except when new coins enter/leave?), but the volatility relative to the rest of my portfolio will probably throw my asset allocations out of whack very quickly. I feel like most people rebalance like once a year, but in the cryptocurrency space, that would not be frequent enough.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #156 on: July 16, 2017, 03:32:29 PM »
There seems to be something like this here: http://www.bittwenty.com/bit20.php

I haven't given it much of a look yet, and I'm not sure I trust them over doing it myself. It's worth noting that the do exclude certain coins like Ripple and Tether, and they also cap each coin to 10% of the index to avoid dominance.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2017, 03:40:43 PM »
Gotcha. Yes, rebalancing into and out of your self-made index would indeed be a big pain. If I were doing it, I'd be tempted to just drop a chunk of money into it -- an amount I could afford to loose -- and then just let it ride without rebalancing. 
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lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #158 on: July 17, 2017, 07:11:14 AM »
There seems to be something like this here: http://www.bittwenty.com/bit20.php

I haven't given it much of a look yet, and I'm not sure I trust them over doing it myself. It's worth noting that the do exclude certain coins like Ripple and Tether, and they also cap each coin to 10% of the index to avoid dominance.

That's very interesting. I didn't know there was a crypto index fund like that. I'll have to check it out. Seems like an easy way to diversify. Thanks for sharing that.

I wonder how they would handle a situation of a chain split for any given currency in the index. Nothing like that is mentioned on their site. Seems like it would be rather important for the trust of the investors to understand that.

JAYSLOL

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #159 on: July 17, 2017, 07:47:50 AM »
Question for Canadians with a crypto-currency portfolio.  I opened a coinbase account, but for methods of purchasing, it only lets me use Visa or MasterCard?  There is a 4% fee, and i'm not sure what my credit card will charge (like a cash-advance fee) in addition if i use it to buy.  Also, how do i get my money out?  Back through my credit card?

I used a prepaid debit card to buy and my bank charged me an international fee of $9 or something like that.  I haven't sold yet so I don't know what happens.

So, as a Canadian, is there another site i should use if i want to buy and sell from my bank account?

JAYSLOL, for what it is worth, when I purchased Bitcoin with a credit card through Coinbase, the credit card company (Barclays) treated it as a regular purchase. That means I earned points on the purchase of my Bitcoin. With about 2.1% earned back from my credit card in cash with these miles, that essentially reduced the fee I had to pay through Coinbase to about 2% on the purchase of Bitcoin which is almost what the fee is for a bank transfer purchase.

YMMV, but if you can't find another purchasing alternative, then purchasing through Coinbase with a credit card that earns you decent miles is an option.

Thanks, thats good to know.  I'm still debating whether i should buy at the moment, knowing that it would be a buy and hold for now as they won't let me sell it at the moment. 

gp_

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #160 on: July 17, 2017, 01:07:56 PM »
I purchased 16 ethereum coins in november at ~$12 a coin then got fed up with the price moving sideways as btc took off from $600 to $2k+ and sold out at $12 or $13 then it took off to nearly $400..... If only I had put a couple thousand on eth at $12/coin.... thats a life changing amount of gains...

My biggest problem is that I don't understand the true fundamentals behind it.  I would have no idea how safe any coin is or how easy it would be for them to split etc... thus its extremely difficult to hold as it drops.

Any helpful info on that?

regarding ETH, keep in mind that there is NO SUPPLY CAP. they were smart to capitalize on the enterprise aspect, which was extremely smart and IMO is the reason why they've managed to hold on.

even though cryptocurrencies are a new asset class, i would study investing psychology and fundamentals as most of them probably apply. many people have panicked and sold (some at huge losses), assuming the market will never come back. consider looking back through history with how every market downturn resulted in a market come back at some point. those who kept buying (dollar cost averaging) or just held on, ultimately fared better than those who panicked and sold.

*to add, when choosing a token to invest in/buy, look at tokens which have a real use case that could result in widespread adoption and active dev teams. with the proliferation of ICO's, read that company's white paper, and engage with the general crypto-community (bitcointalk.org for instance). good luck.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:16:49 PM by gp_ »

arebelspy

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2017, 02:17:56 PM »


consider looking back through history with how every market downturn resulted in a market come back at some point.

Well that's not true.

Quote
those who kept buying (dollar cost averaging) or just held on, ultimately fared better than those who panicked and sold.

Nor that.

Do you think there's never been any assets that went to zero?

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gp_

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #162 on: July 17, 2017, 07:20:39 PM »
Well that's not true.

well, it is. financial markets ultimately recover at some point.

Quote
Nor that.
i'm not talking about a single asset, i mentioned markets.

bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #163 on: July 17, 2017, 08:17:58 PM »
I've been waiting almost 400 years for the tulip market to recover.

onewayfamily

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #164 on: July 17, 2017, 09:55:44 PM »
There are also some markets that don't go to zero, and do recover, but you'd have to wait decades for the recovery. Which for many people would simply mean they have to exit all/part of their position as they need the money to spend or for other things, or the downturn in that market/asset class simply outlives them.
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cheddarpie

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #165 on: July 18, 2017, 06:52:19 AM »
Following with some questions but haven't read the whole thread yet so will do that first ... :)

arebelspy

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #166 on: July 18, 2017, 04:49:54 PM »
Well that's not true.

well, it is. financial markets ultimately recover at some point.

Quote
Nor that.
i'm not talking about a single asset, i mentioned markets.

Tell me how the tulip market is doing.
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gp_

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #167 on: July 18, 2017, 05:06:11 PM »
Tell me how the tulip market is doing.

great, my tulip portfolio is up 8.7% over the last 24hrs.

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #168 on: July 18, 2017, 06:35:53 PM »
why does tulip mania always come up in these discussions?  of course there are such things as bubbles in all kinds of markets.  looking at the charts in the wikipedia link or in the link below, tulip mania (even if the popular retelling is overblown) lasted only a couple years at most. 

cryptocurrencies have enjoyed an 8 year run.  so far so good outlasting the tulip bubble :)

https://stratechery.com/2017/tulips-myths-and-cryptocurrencies/

another note: bubbles in cryptocurrencies have popped, dramatically, and several times even, and yet they are still hanging around.

bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #169 on: July 18, 2017, 08:05:34 PM »
Tulip mania is an interesting analogy because it's a story of a failed alternative currency.  Tulip bulbs experienced explosive growth in a short time and attracted many speculators. 

Items that attract speculators and have their value driven irrationally upwards are at high risk of major crashes.  The explosive growth in value could be the trigger that invalidates the currency.  The value must stabilize for the currency to be useful.

bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #170 on: July 18, 2017, 08:15:09 PM »
Tell me how the tulip market is doing.
great, my tulip portfolio is up 8.7% over the last 24hrs.

The interesting question is why did it go up 8.7% in one day? 
Was there a major announcement? 
Have the fundamentals changed? 
Where do we expect the value to go tomorrow or next week?

I believe this kind of growth/speculation is damaging in the long run.  I experienced the dot com hysteria and subsequent crash - this feels very similar.


arebelspy

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #171 on: July 18, 2017, 08:35:42 PM »
It comes up because it's an easy comparison.

I agree cryptocurrency is different, and I wouldn't even say it's necessarily in a bubble.  But it's a good ridiculous counter to ridiculous statements like these:
consider looking back through history with how every market downturn resulted in a market come back at some point.

Well that's not true.

Quote
those who kept buying (dollar cost averaging) or just held on, ultimately fared better than those who panicked and sold.

Nor that.

Do you think there's never been any assets that went to zero?

Those who kept buying always do better?  What about when it goes to 0? No market has ever gone to 0?  Tell that to the currency market for the Zimbabwe dollar.

What about when they sell (yes low) and put it into a market or asset that performs better going forward? The opportunity cost going forward is all that matters, and you can't say that someone who held always did better than someone who sold (and invested in something else).

Cryptocurrency has a lot going for it, possibly. We don't need hyperbole and inaccurate statements to muddy the waters.
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lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #172 on: July 19, 2017, 05:51:55 AM »
Tell me how the tulip market is doing.
great, my tulip portfolio is up 8.7% over the last 24hrs.

The interesting question is why did it go up 8.7% in one day? 
Was there a major announcement? 
Have the fundamentals changed? 
Where do we expect the value to go tomorrow or next week?

I believe this kind of growth/speculation is damaging in the long run.  I experienced the dot com hysteria and subsequent crash - this feels very similar.

Actually yes, there was pretty good news yesterday that a large number of Bitcoin miners have begun running the new code release yesterday that supports Segwit adoption. That's very good news. The recent drop in prices was related to concern about whether or not there would be a chain split come August first. The fact that so many miners are now adopting SegWit means that a chain split is less likely and users of Bitcoin are more confident. I think the August 1st upgrade date will be a non-issue and Bitcoin will be able to facilitate a lot more transactions than previously and this will result in a large price increase by the end of August.

mcampbell

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #173 on: July 19, 2017, 05:59:17 AM »
I purchased 16 ethereum coins in november at ~$12 a coin then got fed up with the price moving sideways as btc took off from $600 to $2k+ and sold out at $12 or $13 then it took off to nearly $400..... If only I had put a couple thousand on eth at $12/coin.... thats a life changing amount of gains...

My biggest problem is that I don't understand the true fundamentals behind it.  I would have no idea how safe any coin is or how easy it would be for them to split etc... thus its extremely difficult to hold as it drops.

Any helpful info on that?

regarding ETH, keep in mind that there is NO SUPPLY CAP. they were smart to capitalize on the enterprise aspect, which was extremely smart and IMO is the reason why they've managed to hold on.

even though cryptocurrencies are a new asset class, i would study investing psychology and fundamentals as most of them probably apply. many people have panicked and sold (some at huge losses), assuming the market will never come back. consider looking back through history with how every market downturn resulted in a market come back at some point. those who kept buying (dollar cost averaging) or just held on, ultimately fared better than those who panicked and sold.

*to add, when choosing a token to invest in/buy, look at tokens which have a real use case that could result in widespread adoption and active dev teams. with the proliferation of ICO's, read that company's white paper, and engage with the general crypto-community (bitcointalk.org for instance). good luck.

There currently isn't a single ICO with real world value. The ICOs are not equity in the company but based on some future value of utility. They are really dangerous instruments compared to Bitcoin/Ethereum that have at least some proven themselves with at least one use case currency


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lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #174 on: July 19, 2017, 06:40:52 AM »
There currently isn't a single ICO with real world value. The ICOs are not equity in the company but based on some future value of utility. They are really dangerous instruments compared to Bitcoin/Ethereum that have at least some proven themselves with at least one use case currency


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There is so much wrong with this statement. To make a bold claim that there isn't a single ICO with real world value is vastly ignorant to the technology and what ICO's represent and the benefit they provide.

No, they're not equity in any company themselves, but they are equity in a protocol that a company could build itself completely off of. ICOs give developers the opportunity to develop protocols while giving incentive to users to adopt the protocol by giving them a share of the monetization that the protocol provides. Previously it was always a "chicken or the egg" scenario when trying to develop a new technology protocol. A developer might want to create a brand new protocol that would provide a huge benefit, but it might rely on a vast amount of early adopters to get the protocol off the ground.

A great example of this is decentralized cloud storage (ie, Siacoin and Storj). To get a new decentralized cloud storage solution off the ground, it would require a large number of users in the system to ensure there are enough nodes to decentralize the storage of files for new users looking to store their files. But, if there is no incentive to give people to put their hard earned free space up for rent, then it would be very difficult for a solution like that to ever get off the ground. ICOs provide an immediate stake into the solution by creating an incentive in the form of a crypto-currency to those individuals that become a part of the protocol. This allows a system like this to immediately build the framework needed to bring users and adoption to their new protocol. To say that this has no real-world value is insane. These solutions could dramatically shake up the cloud storage market that is in need of one desperately. A decentralized cloud storage solution you can trust is exactly what the market needs.

bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #175 on: July 19, 2017, 09:09:29 AM »
Tell me how the tulip market is doing.
great, my tulip portfolio is up 8.7% over the last 24hrs.

The interesting question is why did it go up 8.7% in one day? 
Was there a major announcement? 
Have the fundamentals changed? 
Where do we expect the value to go tomorrow or next week?

I believe this kind of growth/speculation is damaging in the long run.  I experienced the dot com hysteria and subsequent crash - this feels very similar.

Actually yes, there was pretty good news yesterday that a large number of Bitcoin miners have begun running the new code release yesterday that supports Segwit adoption. That's very good news. The recent drop in prices was related to concern about whether or not there would be a chain split come August first. The fact that so many miners are now adopting SegWit means that a chain split is less likely and users of Bitcoin are more confident. I think the August 1st upgrade date will be a non-issue and Bitcoin will be able to facilitate a lot more transactions than previously and this will result in a large price increase by the end of August.

Nice - I missed that.  That's really good news for the currency.

AlanStache

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #176 on: July 19, 2017, 10:43:33 AM »
Thanks for the great read.  I am nearly at a point to start small level speculation. 

Up thread ARS asked "is it worth it?":  My thought would be to dollar cost average into a few currencies at a total of few hundred
 per month total.  Doing this would postponed my barebones FIRE date by 2-3 months if the entire speculation went to zero.  I tested it assuming the buys were not part of my RE budget.  So the downside seems manageable while there is a good upside potential. 

Any thoughts on how crypto currencies would fair in a broad scale market down turn?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 10:49:54 AM by AlanStache »
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thenextguy

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #177 on: July 19, 2017, 11:00:58 AM »
Tell me how the tulip market is doing.
great, my tulip portfolio is up 8.7% over the last 24hrs.

The interesting question is why did it go up 8.7% in one day? 
Was there a major announcement? 
Have the fundamentals changed? 
Where do we expect the value to go tomorrow or next week?

I believe this kind of growth/speculation is damaging in the long run.  I experienced the dot com hysteria and subsequent crash - this feels very similar.

Actually yes, there was pretty good news yesterday that a large number of Bitcoin miners have begun running the new code release yesterday that supports Segwit adoption. That's very good news. The recent drop in prices was related to concern about whether or not there would be a chain split come August first. The fact that so many miners are now adopting SegWit means that a chain split is less likely and users of Bitcoin are more confident. I think the August 1st upgrade date will be a non-issue and Bitcoin will be able to facilitate a lot more transactions than previously and this will result in a large price increase by the end of August.

This also happened yesterday: https://entethalliance.org/enterprise-ethereum-alliance-becomes-worlds-largest-open-source-blockchain-initiative/

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #178 on: July 19, 2017, 01:06:27 PM »
There currently isn't a single ICO with real world value. The ICOs are not equity in the company but based on some future value of utility. They are really dangerous instruments compared to Bitcoin/Ethereum that have at least some proven themselves with at least one use case currency


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There is so much wrong with this statement. To make a bold claim that there isn't a single ICO with real world value is vastly ignorant to the technology and what ICO's represent and the benefit they provide.

No, they're not equity in any company themselves, but they are equity in a protocol that a company could build itself completely off of. ICOs give developers the opportunity to develop protocols while giving incentive to users to adopt the protocol by giving them a share of the monetization that the protocol provides. Previously it was always a "chicken or the egg" scenario when trying to develop a new technology protocol. A developer might want to create a brand new protocol that would provide a huge benefit, but it might rely on a vast amount of early adopters to get the protocol off the ground.

A great example of this is decentralized cloud storage (ie, Siacoin and Storj). To get a new decentralized cloud storage solution off the ground, it would require a large number of users in the system to ensure there are enough nodes to decentralize the storage of files for new users looking to store their files. But, if there is no incentive to give people to put their hard earned free space up for rent, then it would be very difficult for a solution like that to ever get off the ground. ICOs provide an immediate stake into the solution by creating an incentive in the form of a crypto-currency to those individuals that become a part of the protocol. This allows a system like this to immediately build the framework needed to bring users and adoption to their new protocol. To say that this has no real-world value is insane. These solutions could dramatically shake up the cloud storage market that is in need of one desperately. A decentralized cloud storage solution you can trust is exactly what the market needs.

Cloud storage market won't be shaken up from this. If you are technical you will realize that the extra redundancy requirements and high chance of data loss. Means they will never be competitive with Amazon. I worked for a large cloud hosting company and it's difficult even at massive scale to come to pricing parity with Amazon. Having some random people host it and with many more copies is a joke. It will never be in the same price realm. Each of these ICOs is hyping some future vaporware.


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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #179 on: July 19, 2017, 01:48:09 PM »
There currently isn't a single ICO with real world value. The ICOs are not equity in the company but based on some future value of utility. They are really dangerous instruments compared to Bitcoin/Ethereum that have at least some proven themselves with at least one use case currency


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There is so much wrong with this statement. To make a bold claim that there isn't a single ICO with real world value is vastly ignorant to the technology and what ICO's represent and the benefit they provide.

No, they're not equity in any company themselves, but they are equity in a protocol that a company could build itself completely off of. ICOs give developers the opportunity to develop protocols while giving incentive to users to adopt the protocol by giving them a share of the monetization that the protocol provides. Previously it was always a "chicken or the egg" scenario when trying to develop a new technology protocol. A developer might want to create a brand new protocol that would provide a huge benefit, but it might rely on a vast amount of early adopters to get the protocol off the ground.

A great example of this is decentralized cloud storage (ie, Siacoin and Storj). To get a new decentralized cloud storage solution off the ground, it would require a large number of users in the system to ensure there are enough nodes to decentralize the storage of files for new users looking to store their files. But, if there is no incentive to give people to put their hard earned free space up for rent, then it would be very difficult for a solution like that to ever get off the ground. ICOs provide an immediate stake into the solution by creating an incentive in the form of a crypto-currency to those individuals that become a part of the protocol. This allows a system like this to immediately build the framework needed to bring users and adoption to their new protocol. To say that this has no real-world value is insane. These solutions could dramatically shake up the cloud storage market that is in need of one desperately. A decentralized cloud storage solution you can trust is exactly what the market needs.

Cloud storage market won't be shaken up from this. If you are technical you will realize that the extra redundancy requirements and high chance of data loss. Means they will never be competitive with Amazon. I worked for a large cloud hosting company and it's difficult even at massive scale to come to pricing parity with Amazon. Having some random people host it and with many more copies is a joke. It will never be in the same price realm. Each of these ICOs is hyping some future vaporware.


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Sia already offers this service to users for the insane cost of $2 per TB.  I suspect the price will go up as an incentive to attract more hosts but the business model has worked so far on a smaller scale, the developers are actively improving the model and there is a group of successful tech investors that have a stake in Sia's parent company.  Your statement regarding redundancy and high chance of data loss seems contradictory.  Data hosts only get paid at the end of the contract and there are currently 4 copies of every tiny piece of data spread, so if three are offline the fourth will allow a complete set of data to be opened.  The developers have also indicated in their announcement that they will continue research into where the sweet-spot is to ensure there is a 99.999% chance the user's data will be accessible.  If they can continue to do this and still price their services at anything close to the 10x cheaper than the competition then I don't see why anyone would dismiss them.  It's a young company, that recently received a $400k grant from an investor, that is not yet ready to host Netflix's data but give it a couple years to see if they can deliver.  As you may have guessed, I personally believe in the business model.

Their model has the added benefit of being more secure as well because only the "tenant" has the key to the data and the data is broken down, encrypted and stored in small packages on various hard-drives.
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bender

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #180 on: July 19, 2017, 03:36:03 PM »
Not a great article, but an interesting question.  Can bitcoin go to $1M?
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/05/25/could-the-price-of-bitcoin-go-to-1-million.aspx

Would like to hear what people think.

CanuckExpat

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #181 on: July 19, 2017, 08:09:42 PM »
And i just checked, coinbase doesn't support the selling of digital currency in Canada.  So, i can buy, pay 4%, plus possible cash advance charges, and I can't ever sell it.  What the hell?

Can you withdraw to Paypal account? Then from Paypal to Canadian bank.

I dunno, the site just automatically knows im in Canada, and only gives me the option to link a credit card and as far as I can tell, no paypal or other options

Should have the option when you go to sell, if you click through "add payment method"
Something like the following screens:
1)

2)

3)


I can imagine not linking to a Canadian bank account, but would be surprised if Paypal was not supported for Canadians

Barring that, you can always send me the Bitcoin and I could send it to you. I'm totally trustworthy. On an unrelated note, everyone, I might have found an even better way of getting bitcoin than mining :)
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JAYSLOL

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #182 on: July 19, 2017, 09:23:12 PM »
And i just checked, coinbase doesn't support the selling of digital currency in Canada.  So, i can buy, pay 4%, plus possible cash advance charges, and I can't ever sell it.  What the hell?

Can you withdraw to Paypal account? Then from Paypal to Canadian bank.

I dunno, the site just automatically knows im in Canada, and only gives me the option to link a credit card and as far as I can tell, no paypal or other options

Should have the option when you go to sell, if you click through "add payment method"
Something like the following screens:
1)

2)

3)


I can imagine not linking to a Canadian bank account, but would be surprised if Paypal was not supported for Canadians

Barring that, you can always send me the Bitcoin and I could send it to you. I'm totally trustworthy. On an unrelated note, everyone, I might have found an even better way of getting bitcoin than mining :)

LOL.  Yep, sounds totally safe.  On another note, I did actually buy ~$100 or so of ETH and BTC when prices dipped early Monday morning.  I haven't decided if I'm going to buy a fixed amount per week or just throw random chunks of money at it when prices dip.  I mean, it's already highly speculative, why not make it full on gambling with some market timing too?  No matter what, I do plan to keep this as a very small percentage of my portfolio. 

lifeanon269

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Cloud storage market won't be shaken up from this. If you are technical you will realize that the extra redundancy requirements and high chance of data loss. Means they will never be competitive with Amazon. I worked for a large cloud hosting company and it's difficult even at massive scale to come to pricing parity with Amazon. Having some random people host it and with many more copies is a joke. It will never be in the same price realm. Each of these ICOs is hyping some future vaporware.


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Maybe not immediately, but it will become a major competitor I believe. How is it vaporware? The Storj network infrastructure is usable today. I used it the other day to store files and those files were stored redundantly, encrypted (with a private key that I own), and split into small fragments across 5+ geographically diverse nodes. If you were technical, you'd know why your statement is ridiculous. The only downside is that it isn't as usable at the moment. You need to use some cli scripts to upload and download files and the commands used require specifying unfriendly file and bucket IDs to upload and download files. So technically, the system works as designed, they just need to work on the usability of it so that it can appeal to a broader market.

Because the files are fragmented across many nodes, download speeds are high because the bandwidth is split across those nodes similar to how Bittorrent achieves its high download speeds.

Decentralized cloud storage will be way cheaper than what any other cloud storage provider. The cost of Storj is about $0.015/GB per month. Amazon is $0.023/GB per month and Microsoft is $0.030/GB per month. It is way easier to achieve scale when it is distributed and decentralized as opposed to one single entity trying to match those costs at scale.

Just look at Bitcoin itself. It is capable of achieving processing speeds that are more than 500 times more powerful than the top 500 supercomputers on earth combined. No single entity could ever achieve that. The reason is because the costs are distributed across the network and share among the network's users. The same thing happens with any decentralized solution. Whether it is Bittorrent, cloud storage, computing, etc.

Why do you think that even some larger providers choose to host larger downloads via Bittorrent as opposed to trying to serve those downloads themselves? Because it is simply cheaper to do it in a distributed/decentralized method as opposed to paying the higher costs of hosting it centrally.


EDIT: Just noticed OneCoolCat responded similarly. Kudos.
« Last Edit: Today at 06:26:28 AM by lifeanon269 »

mcampbell

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Cloud storage market won't be shaken up from this. If you are technical you will realize that the extra redundancy requirements and high chance of data loss. Means they will never be competitive with Amazon. I worked for a large cloud hosting company and it's difficult even at massive scale to come to pricing parity with Amazon. Having some random people host it and with many more copies is a joke. It will never be in the same price realm. Each of these ICOs is hyping some future vaporware.


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Maybe not immediately, but it will become a major competitor I believe. How is it vaporware? The Storj network infrastructure is usable today. I used it the other day to store files and those files were stored redundantly, encrypted (with a private key that I own), and split into small fragments across 5+ geographically diverse nodes. If you were technical, you'd know why your statement is ridiculous. The only downside is that it isn't as usable at the moment. You need to use some cli scripts to upload and download files and the commands used require specifying unfriendly file and bucket IDs to upload and download files. So technically, the system works as designed, they just need to work on the usability of it so that it can appeal to a broader market.

Because the files are fragmented across many nodes, download speeds are high because the bandwidth is split across those nodes similar to how Bittorrent achieves its high download speeds.

Decentralized cloud storage will be way cheaper than what any other cloud storage provider. The cost of Storj is about $0.015/GB per month. Amazon is $0.023/GB per month and Microsoft is $0.030/GB per month. It is way easier to achieve scale when it is distributed and decentralized as opposed to one single entity trying to match those costs at scale.

Just look at Bitcoin itself. It is capable of achieving processing speeds that are more than 500 times more powerful than the top 500 supercomputers on earth combined. No single entity could ever achieve that. The reason is because the costs are distributed across the network and share among the network's users. The same thing happens with any decentralized solution. Whether it is Bittorrent, cloud storage, computing, etc.

Why do you think that even some larger providers choose to host larger downloads via Bittorrent as opposed to trying to serve those downloads themselves? Because it is simply cheaper to do it in a distributed/decentralized method as opposed to paying the higher costs of hosting it centrally.


EDIT: Just noticed OneCoolCat responded similarly. Kudos.

Centralized system will have better pricing, the core costs are hard drives and electricity. Both are cheaper at scale. P2p file sharing has been around for 20 years. This is great for piracy, not if you want to have consistent reliable storage. There is a whole thread on hacker news where people go into more detail here, this is actually a technical forum https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14806440

If you want to look at pure underlying economics, one of our competitors has a great post detailing how much it costs to run a storage costs.

* From https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-cost-per-gigabyte/ 1TB of storage cost around $25. * I'll assume 3 year life-span for a drive. * Add 50% costs for the infrastructure and electricity to support the storage. * Add another 17.6% due to redundancy (17 data shards + 3 parity) - https://www.backblaze.com/blog/vault-cloud-storage-architecture/

Gives a minimum cost (before employee costs, marketing etc) of $1.22/TB/month.
If we do the same with Siacoin (which I believe stores 3 copies of your data) we get $3.12/TB/month.


I know the company I'm at has a few million clients and even at our scale competitions with Amazon on price is nearly impossible on the storage side. It's not where the margins are

I think people are just hyped about ethereum so just trying to find any valid usecase to use blockchain.


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jrbrokerr

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Tulip mania is an interesting analogy because it's a story of a failed alternative currency.  Tulip bulbs experienced explosive growth in a short time and attracted many speculators. 

Items that attract speculators and have their value driven irrationally upwards are at high risk of major crashes.  The explosive growth in value could be the trigger that invalidates the currency.  The value must stabilize for the currency to be useful.

ir doesnt matter, tulip was still a MARKET, so for purposes of the discussion it is a valid one, since it shows how MARKETS not ALWAYS RECOVER... , I dont know that much about crypto but it is very comparable to the tulipe mania because I can tell you, people are just buying in hopes to sell higher and make a profit, not investing because of the VALUE these  "currencies" give.... like many say, nobody knows when it is a bubble until it pops and everyone is left behind, I bet you in those times nobody knew tulip was becoming a gigantic bubble

jrbrokerr

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sorry, REPLIED to the wrong POST, this was the one I was trying to REPLY to:


Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
Reply #168 on: July 18, 2017, 06:35:53 PM
Quote
why does tulip mania always come up in these discussions?  of course there are such things as bubbles in all kinds of markets.  looking at the charts in the wikipedia link or in the link below, tulip mania (even if the popular retelling is overblown) lasted only a couple years at most. 

cryptocurrencies have enjoyed an 8 year run.  so far so good outlasting the tulip bubble :)

https://stratechery.com/2017/tulips-myths-and-cryptocurrencies/

another note: bubbles in cryptocurrencies have popped, dramatically, and several times even, and yet they are still hanging around.

CanuckExpat

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A couple good points have been raised earlier, directly and indirectly: what portion of your portfolio would you allocate to cryptocurrencies, and how would you know when to sell?

I don't know how to answer either one in my case, which leads me to believe I don't have a good reason for holding any. I guess if you had a specific allocation, then you could sell as you rebalance out. I don't have a target price, but might institute monthly profit taking, or find some small portion of my portfolio I'm comfortable with it at.

We do allow 5% of our portfolio for other (non stocks or bonds), but that also includes high yield bonds and lending, and variety of private investments, so any crypto currency allocation would have to also be carved further out of that. Which is fine with me.. I don't want to hold that much at this point.
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bender

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Crypto currency investors - what other alternative investments are you into?  I'm interested since I haven't allocated any percentage of my holdings to alternatives.  I'm wondering if crypto currencies are the only alt-holding or if there are other alt investments (besides cash, stock, bonds, real-estate) you're holding.  Investments without earnings (where P/E can't be calculated) like other paper currencies as investment, precious metals, Collectibles, etc.

gp_

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The interesting question is why did it go up 8.7% in one day? 

i have a large / diversified crypto portfolio, so some fared better than others. the volatility in general is ridiculous...

gp_

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I agree cryptocurrency is different, and I wouldn't even say it's necessarily in a bubble.  But it's a good ridiculous counter to ridiculous statements like these:

Those who kept buying always do better?  What about when it goes to 0? No market has ever gone to 0?  Tell that to the currency market for the Zimbabwe dollar.

What about when they sell (yes low) and put it into a market or asset that performs better going forward? The opportunity cost going forward is all that matters, and you can't say that someone who held always did better than someone who sold (and invested in something else).

Cryptocurrency has a lot going for it, possibly. We don't need hyperbole and inaccurate statements to muddy the waters.

how is it a ridiculous statement? you're comparing 1 country's currency (a country who is one of the most corrupt), to an entire market which in theory eliminates most of the problems with what traditional "currency" is/can be - comparing the 2 is beyond foolish.

you're taking everything i've said and "ran" with it, instead of just reading it at face value. of course you can always buy into something else, but again, i was using the comparison to a market not an single asset. please feel free to roll the dice and time the market if you'd like.

"muddying" the water is stating that cryptocurrencies "possibly" have a lot going for it... you're obviously a bystander.

kenaces

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The interesting question is why did it go up 8.7% in one day? 

i have a large / diversified crypto portfolio, so some fared better than others. the volatility in general is ridiculous...

up 26.5% today!

gp_

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The interesting question is why did it go up 8.7% in one day? 

i have a large / diversified crypto portfolio, so some fared better than others. the volatility in general is ridiculous...

up 26.5% today!

nice! (and congrats). i'm up 20.41%. we're climbing back.

phil22

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The interesting question is why did it go up 8.7% in one day? 

i have a large / diversified crypto portfolio, so some fared better than others. the volatility in general is ridiculous...

up 26.5% today!

it's up because miners are finally (seemingly) organizing to implement a years' overdue protocol upgrade.  also the price could be rising more than usual because lots of folks removed their coins from exchanges in anticipation of a possible fork.

depending on what the miners/forks do in the next few days and weeks the volatility could get even crazier.