Author Topic: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion  (Read 201829 times)

Padonak

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1150 on: May 14, 2018, 05:41:57 PM »
Lol, some take it personally, most don't. It's the vocal people you usually hear/see (especially on the internet).

Buffet/Munger have been wrong plenty of times. Especially on (new) technology.

How about Bill Gates?

I'm not defending Crypto, but as far as I remember, Gates was wrong about the Internet and its potential.

maizeman

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1151 on: May 14, 2018, 05:54:56 PM »
Lol, some take it personally, most don't. It's the vocal people you usually hear/see (especially on the internet).

Buffet/Munger have been wrong plenty of times. Especially on (new) technology.

How about Bill Gates?

I'm not defending Crypto, but as far as I remember, Gates was wrong about the Internet and its potential.

Bill Gates is enough of an antichrist to the open source movement (even though he seems like a perfectly nice man) that there are whole websites set up to track his bad predictions:

Quote
"We will never make a 32-bit operating system," Bill Gates said at the launch of MSX in 1983.

Gates declared in January 2004 at the World Economic Forum in Switzerland that spam would be dead in 24 months. Two years later, security firm Barracuda said that in 2007, 95-percent of e-mail messages were spam.

"This antitrust thing will blow over," Bill Gates was quoted as telling a group of Intel executives at a meeting on 11 July, 1995

There's also the famous "No one will need more than 637KB of memory for a personal computer. 640KB ought to be enough for anybody" although it's not clear if he really ever said that or not (he now denies it).

....I don't know that this proves anything in particular, but there it is.

Telecaster

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1152 on: May 14, 2018, 08:09:38 PM »
Lol, some take it personally, most don't. It's the vocal people you usually hear/see (especially on the internet).

Buffet/Munger have been wrong plenty of times. Especially on (new) technology.

How about Bill Gates?

I'm not defending Crypto, but as far as I remember, Gates was wrong about the Internet and its potential.


You sure?  Here is Gate's 1995 "Internet Tidal Wave" memo.  It seems to me he understood very clearly the direction things were headed:

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/atr/legacy/2006/03/03/20.pdf

That said, just because Gate's understanding of tech made him one of the richest human beings who ever lived, by itself, doesn't mean he is correct about crypto. 

But in my mind, if someone with that level of expertise has concerns, then it is reasonable to take those concerns seriously.  Same with Buffett and Munger.  Do any crypto proponents care to address their concerns?  Or is it simply enough to dismiss their points because they have been wrong in the past?

BattlaP

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1153 on: May 14, 2018, 11:23:34 PM »
Maybe it’s enough to ignore all the shit people talk on either side and just keep counting the days, months and years that crypto fails to revolutionise anything. There’s no steady progress here, just empty hype based on weaker and weaker evidence. I’m very happy that the wave of nonsense has receded out of pop media.

shinn497

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1154 on: May 14, 2018, 11:26:35 PM »
Can you guys seel me your GPUs. I want to build a deep learning rig.

runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1155 on: May 19, 2018, 01:01:42 AM »
Interestingly, I've just read an article on how blockchain technologies may be affected by the EU's General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR). Link here: https://medium.com/wearetheledger/the-blockchain-gdpr-paradox-fc51e663d047.

TLDR: as of the 25th of May, according to the link, holding any personal data whatsoever on a blockchain will be effectively completely illegal across the entire European Union. For those Mustachians resident outside Europe, or those within Europe who aren't particularly interested in European legal news, this is a Very Big Deal. The European court system is EXTREMELY serious about making sure that things within the EU follow the EU's rules, to the extent that a large part of European legal history consists of the union itself successfully prosecuting the absolute shit out of individual governments for pricking around.

If the article is correct, and it's impossible to make blockchain GDPR-compliant without turning it into a simple lookup table, then the number of potential blockchain applications in the EU has just gone to absolute zero, along with the number of potential blockchain applications that involve the EU in any way whatsoever.

sol

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1156 on: May 19, 2018, 08:31:49 AM »
If the article is correct, and it's impossible to make blockchain GDPR-compliant without turning it into a simple lookup table, then the number of potential blockchain applications in the EU has just gone to absolute zero, along with the number of potential blockchain applications that involve the EU in any way whatsoever.

That would be delicious, if a technology designed by privacy advocates was laid low by privacy concerns. 

Cache_Stash

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1157 on: May 21, 2018, 09:30:00 AM »
Way to big a thread to read it all. 

Has there been any discussion on the amount of electrical power draw currently being utilized to support bitcoin mining?  I read somewhere, very recently, by the end of the year bitcoin mining will have a consumption of 0.5% of the worlds current electrical demand. 

Anyone see a problem here?

I certainly do.  Especially if you hold strong beliefs in climate change, pollution in general, etc...

Seems like a can of worms is being opened.

Edited to Add:

The current technology doesn't seem sustainable.  I think it is a good first wack at something that could be greatly beneficial, but the jury is out on first mover advantage of Bitcoin and the other 5,000 crypto's out there now.  I would say the final winner of the crypto war (which I believe it is) will not be first mover.

(This post is not saying anything about block chain.   Block chain is the fundamental underlying technology.   It's about the current use of blockchain for crypto currency)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 09:37:54 AM by Cache Stash »

Telecaster

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1158 on: May 21, 2018, 12:26:31 PM »
Way to big a thread to read it all. 

Has there been any discussion on the amount of electrical power draw currently being utilized to support bitcoin mining?  I read somewhere, very recently, by the end of the year bitcoin mining will have a consumption of 0.5% of the worlds current electrical demand. 

Anyone see a problem here?

I do too.  No ability to scale. 

Travis

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1159 on: May 21, 2018, 12:59:50 PM »
Way to big a thread to read it all. 

Has there been any discussion on the amount of electrical power draw currently being utilized to support bitcoin mining?  I read somewhere, very recently, by the end of the year bitcoin mining will have a consumption of 0.5% of the worlds current electrical demand. 

Anyone see a problem here?


Yes, it's been discussed. Repeatedly.

Syonyk

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1160 on: May 31, 2018, 09:56:58 AM »
Can you guys seel me your GPUs. I want to build a deep learning rig.

I've got a few GTX980s I'm looking to part with, and could be convinced to sell a Radeon 290X.

zazpowered

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1161 on: June 06, 2018, 05:46:01 PM »
Fidelity is working on a crypto exchange. https://www.ccn.com/breaking-fidelity-is-quietly-building-a-cryptocurrency-exchange/

Pretty good validation for the industry

GuitarStv

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1162 on: June 07, 2018, 07:32:31 AM »
How many people are using it Fidelity's crypto exchange?  If it's zero, can we wait until it has a couple billion transactions under it's belt before we get excited about it . . . or do we have to pretend that every bit of unsubstantiated gossip about a possible crypto future is meaningful?

waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1163 on: June 07, 2018, 07:59:00 AM »
The type of exchange that we need to show some sort of future use case is, of course, exchanging crypto for real-world stuff. "Exchanges" where crypto gets traded for crypto is just showing that it's got the same use case (so far) as baseball cards.

I get that lots of financial institutions want to make money on this by taking a percentage of what various suckers spend trading with each other. That makes perfect sense.

-W

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1164 on: June 07, 2018, 12:49:04 PM »
If the article is correct, and it's impossible to make blockchain GDPR-compliant without turning it into a simple lookup table, then the number of potential blockchain applications in the EU has just gone to absolute zero, along with the number of potential blockchain applications that involve the EU in any way whatsoever.

That would be delicious, if a technology designed by privacy advocates was laid low by privacy concerns.

I know this is a late post, but I just wanted to add...

The article that was linked to was mainly relevant only to permissioned blockchains. You can be sure that anyone who is actually serious about privacy is not going to use a permissioned blockchain. An open blockchain that is privacy focused is not going to store any PII data on it anyway and therefore the entire article and GDPR is not applicable in that case.

While the article does make some good points in regards to permissioned blockchains, I think if anything, it misses the real point about how permissioned blockchains often don't provide any more benefit above and beyond what relational databases already provide organizations. There is so much blockchain hype out there looking to find ways to implement blockchain tech without actually looking at the problem that needs solving and what tech is best suited for solving it. Relational databases are also append databases like blockchains in the way that their logging takes place, they're just missing the cryptography components that blockchains utilize. You can still distribute relational databases in much the same way as you could a blockchain. If a blockchain is centrally controlled, managed, and permissioned to the point where being a trustless system is not a feature, then cryptography won't provide much of a benefit above what a typical relational database already provides.

In this regard, blockchains are very inefficient databases to run when compared to relational databases. In a permissioned blockchain where you don't care about being trustless, you can centrally enforce consensus on the network. In that case, proof of work is then not necessary to prevent double-spending. If that's the case, then there isn't much of a benefit of running a blockchain. Why create an immutable and decentralized ledger that is in the hands of a centralized entity that can decide whether or not immutability is actually true or not at any point in time?

This is why tokenized blockchain applications are all mostly hype at this point. It makes much more sense to develop those centrally managed 2nd layer blockchain applications onto an existing trustless decentralized base-layer blockchain like Bitcoin. This way you're backed by true immutability of the most secure blockchain on the planet, but any type of data you want to put into your application to make it work can be applied off-chain in ways that will work with regulations instead of against them. But don't tell this to any ICO developers/investors...

runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1165 on: June 07, 2018, 03:49:10 PM »
If the article is correct, and it's impossible to make blockchain GDPR-compliant without turning it into a simple lookup table, then the number of potential blockchain applications in the EU has just gone to absolute zero, along with the number of potential blockchain applications that involve the EU in any way whatsoever.

That would be delicious, if a technology designed by privacy advocates was laid low by privacy concerns.

I know this is a late post, but I just wanted to add...

The article that was linked to was mainly relevant only to permissioned blockchains. You can be sure that anyone who is actually serious about privacy is not going to use a permissioned blockchain. An open blockchain that is privacy focused is not going to store any PII data on it anyway and therefore the entire article and GDPR is not applicable in that case.

While the article does make some good points in regards to permissioned blockchains, I think if anything, it misses the real point about how permissioned blockchains often don't provide any more benefit above and beyond what relational databases already provide organizations. There is so much blockchain hype out there looking to find ways to implement blockchain tech without actually looking at the problem that needs solving and what tech is best suited for solving it. Relational databases are also append databases like blockchains in the way that their logging takes place, they're just missing the cryptography components that blockchains utilize. You can still distribute relational databases in much the same way as you could a blockchain. If a blockchain is centrally controlled, managed, and permissioned to the point where being a trustless system is not a feature, then cryptography won't provide much of a benefit above what a typical relational database already provides.

In this regard, blockchains are very inefficient databases to run when compared to relational databases. In a permissioned blockchain where you don't care about being trustless, you can centrally enforce consensus on the network. In that case, proof of work is then not necessary to prevent double-spending. If that's the case, then there isn't much of a benefit of running a blockchain. Why create an immutable and decentralized ledger that is in the hands of a centralized entity that can decide whether or not immutability is actually true or not at any point in time?

This is why tokenized blockchain applications are all mostly hype at this point. It makes much more sense to develop those centrally managed 2nd layer blockchain applications onto an existing trustless decentralized base-layer blockchain like Bitcoin. This way you're backed by true immutability of the most secure blockchain on the planet, but any type of data you want to put into your application to make it work can be applied off-chain in ways that will work with regulations instead of against them. But don't tell this to any ICO developers/investors...

As far as I understand, a record of transactions does not need to have any identifying details for individuals to risk falling foul of GDPR. If the identity of the owner of a given wallet is made public, then the blockchain carrying information regarding that wallet immediately becomes a GDPR violation.

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1166 on: June 07, 2018, 08:09:09 PM »
As far as I understand, a record of transactions does not need to have any identifying details for individuals to risk falling foul of GDPR. If the identity of the owner of a given wallet is made public, then the blockchain carrying information regarding that wallet immediately becomes a GDPR violation.

But if it is a decentralized open blockchain, then even if the GDPR cries violation over any particular piece of data, then it would be extremely difficult for GDPR to enforce such a violation again open blockchains like that.

Also, the GDPR does give a decent amount of flexibility for data controllers and processors to pseudonymize data and that pseudonymized data is classified as an "appropriate safeguard" for meeting GDPR requirements of data held for historical purposes. Considering that most open blockchains maintain data that is pseudonymized for historical purposes, this would fall into this category. Finally, my statement was mostly in regards to privacy focused blockchains and many of them go beyond even just pseudonymization of data using techniques like zero-knowledge proofs that can further conceal ownership/identification of that data.

Nate79

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1167 on: June 07, 2018, 10:48:08 PM »
The type of exchange that we need to show some sort of future use case is, of course, exchanging crypto for real-world stuff. "Exchanges" where crypto gets traded for crypto is just showing that it's got the same use case (so far) as baseball cards.

I get that lots of financial institutions want to make money on this by taking a percentage of what various suckers spend trading with each other. That makes perfect sense.

-W
Wait, are you saying people need to actually use Bitcoin to buy things instead of speculating on the value just increasing? Then how do expect us to all become rich off of this sure thing?

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runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1168 on: June 08, 2018, 02:33:39 AM »
As far as I understand, a record of transactions does not need to have any identifying details for individuals to risk falling foul of GDPR. If the identity of the owner of a given wallet is made public, then the blockchain carrying information regarding that wallet immediately becomes a GDPR violation.

But if it is a decentralized open blockchain, then even if the GDPR cries violation over any particular piece of data, then it would be extremely difficult for GDPR to enforce such a violation again open blockchains like that.

Also, the GDPR does give a decent amount of flexibility for data controllers and processors to pseudonymize data and that pseudonymized data is classified as an "appropriate safeguard" for meeting GDPR requirements of data held for historical purposes. Considering that most open blockchains maintain data that is pseudonymized for historical purposes, this would fall into this category. Finally, my statement was mostly in regards to privacy focused blockchains and many of them go beyond even just pseudonymization of data using techniques like zero-knowledge proofs that can further conceal ownership/identification of that data.

The issue isn't necessarily the adequacy of anonymisation. It's that one of the key pillars of GDPR is that data has to be deletable; as far as I understand it, that's not possible on most blockchains.

As for enforcement: there is a persistent idea that crypto somehow makes it easy to evade the reach of the law. If the Commission decides a technology is illegal, then it's trivially easy to enforce. At a certain point, crypto needs to be converted back into actual currency: the Commission can simply hammer down on that point of transfer and crypto effectively ceases to operate in the EU. If you doubt the reach or effectiveness of western governments in financial matters, try getting your hands on some Iranian currency.

lifeanon269

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1169 on: June 08, 2018, 06:14:51 AM »
The issue isn't necessarily the adequacy of anonymisation. It's that one of the key pillars of GDPR is that data has to be deletable; as far as I understand it, that's not possible on most blockchains.

As for enforcement: there is a persistent idea that crypto somehow makes it easy to evade the reach of the law. If the Commission decides a technology is illegal, then it's trivially easy to enforce. At a certain point, crypto needs to be converted back into actual currency: the Commission can simply hammer down on that point of transfer and crypto effectively ceases to operate in the EU. If you doubt the reach or effectiveness of western governments in financial matters, try getting your hands on some Iranian currency.

That is actually not true at all and a myth with regards to the GDPR. All data under the GDPR does not suddenly have to be deletable. Article 17 of the GDPR (right to erasure) is not a far reaching clause that suddenly forces all data to be deletable. There is quite a bit of flexibility in Paragraph 3 that allows data controllers to retain data even if the data subject invokes their right to be forgotten. Like I said, the GDPR gives flexibility to data controllers and processors when it comes to handling data for scientific, statistical, or historical purposes in ways where erasure of such data would render impossible or impair the objectives of the system at hand. In such cases, the GDPR states that pseudonymization and anonymization of data are "appropriate safeguards" for protecting a data subject's personal information.

Secondly, my comments with regards to enforcement wasn't pertaining to the overall government's ability to clamp down on exchanging any given crypto-currency if it so desires. It was in regards to the Information Commissioner's Office's (GDPR) ability to levy fines and actually effectively enforce the GDPR's compliance on any given open and decentralized blockchain if it finds a violation in one. First and foremost, with a decentralized open blockchain, there is no central entity to enforce a fine on. This then means it then comes down to the ICO needing to enforce compliance on each individual node maintainer of the given blockchain network in question. Just look at how effective policing anti-piracy laws are at clamping down on illegally shared music and movies are on the internet. Very rarely do law enforcement agencies go after individuals that happen to be downloading movies and music just to levy a small fine on that individual. It just isn't worth the time and effort. It just isn't in the ICO's interest to seek out and levy punitive fines to the thousands of individuals who happen to be hosting blockchain nodes. And I don't think the ICO has quite the jurisdiction that you think it has.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 06:17:34 AM by lifeanon269 »

runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1170 on: June 08, 2018, 09:31:09 AM »
I thought the point of bitcoins and other cryptos is they essentially operated outside of the bounds of the laws of any one nation or nations.  That is their selling point! They can't be seized, the block chain has no mechanism to be served with or respond to a court order or other lawful order, and governments can't really regulate them except by trying to regulate local conditions for the miners (e.g. power consumption and cost, worker conditions, property taxes, etc).  Suppose the EU does try to bring some sort of legal action against cryptos, who do they bring it against?  The users? PPHHbbtttt, good luck.  The miners? They are like amoebas and can close up and open shop in more friendly jurisdictions.  The exchanges?  Perhaps, but I think determined users will find a way to circumvent whatever the safeguards are put in place by the exchanges to prevent GDPR violations.

Declare that conversion of crypto to dollars and usage of crypto in general is classed as money laundering and banned for any entity doing business in the United States, and crypto would effectively cease to exist for Americans and most of the western world. It doesn't matter how secure and impregnable the crypto network is when all the government has to do is stand at the exits with a spiked bat. They can simply decide that being caught using it is an instant charge of terrorism or money laundering, and the undeleteable nature of the blockchain means that once they tie a single transaction to you, they have you by the balls for every transaction you've done.


Rosy

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1171 on: June 09, 2018, 01:38:14 PM »
The type of exchange that we need to show some sort of future use case is, of course, exchanging crypto for real-world stuff. "Exchanges" where crypto gets traded for crypto is just showing that it's got the same use case (so far) as baseball cards.

I get that lots of financial institutions want to make money on this by taking a percentage of what various suckers spend trading with each other. That makes perfect sense.

-W
Wait, are you saying people need to actually use Bitcoin to buy things instead of speculating on the value just increasing? Then how do expect us to all become rich off of this sure thing?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

How about buying a 4 Mil property in Florida with bitcoin - real enough for you?
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/In-a-first-you-can-buy-a-4-million-gulf-front-Tampa-Bay-home-with-bitcoin-_168979277

or

How about releasing a movie via blockchain?
http://www.tampabay.com/features/movies/A-Plant-City-movie-to-make-history-by-becoming-first-released-on-a-blockchain_167565905

Rosy

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1172 on: June 09, 2018, 01:58:54 PM »
I thought the point of bitcoins and other cryptos is they essentially operated outside of the bounds of the laws of any one nation or nations.  That is their selling point! They can't be seized, the block chain has no mechanism to be served with or respond to a court order or other lawful order, and governments can't really regulate them except by trying to regulate local conditions for the miners (e.g. power consumption and cost, worker conditions, property taxes, etc).  Suppose the EU does try to bring some sort of legal action against cryptos, who do they bring it against?  The users? PPHHbbtttt, good luck.  The miners? They are like amoebas and can close up and open shop in more friendly jurisdictions.  The exchanges?  Perhaps, but I think determined users will find a way to circumvent whatever the safeguards are put in place by the exchanges to prevent GDPR violations.

Declare that conversion of crypto to dollars and usage of crypto in general is classed as money laundering and banned for any entity doing business in the United States, and crypto would effectively cease to exist for Americans and most of the western world. It doesn't matter how secure and impregnable the crypto network is when all the government has to do is stand at the exits with a spiked bat. They can simply decide that being caught using it is an instant charge of terrorism or money laundering, and the undeleteable nature of the blockchain means that once they tie a single transaction to you, they have you by the balls for every transaction you've done.

Put in those terms cryptocurrency sounds sinister, a dark web technology for criminals. Sort of like an offshore account for Millennials with ties to international money laundering aspirations.

Isn't the idea to move money as cheap and as speedy as possible? Move it within seconds - a global currency exchange? Like Ripple is currently doing, signing up a bank a week?

Maybe it would make more sense to invest in the bank in CA (Silvergate in San Diego) who has become a clearinghouse for cryptocurrencies since they are traded on the exchange.

While it is a bit of the Wild West we should still be at a stage where one might find investment opportunities in the blockchain technology in a more round about way - not just the actual crypto currencies.
Wouldn't the banks once they've figured out how to use the blockchain technology to their advantage then work on killing off the cryptocurrencies in the US even if in some developing countries they were to become viable?


Travis

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1173 on: June 09, 2018, 03:33:53 PM »


How about buying a 4 Mil property in Florida with bitcoin - real enough for you?
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/In-a-first-you-can-buy-a-4-million-gulf-front-Tampa-Bay-home-with-bitcoin-_168979277


Quote
Once a home inspection is completed, the purchaser would be required to convert the bitcoins to U.S. dollars and put the full contract amount in escrow.

So it's still a cash transaction?

Nate79

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1174 on: June 09, 2018, 07:12:08 PM »
The type of exchange that we need to show some sort of future use case is, of course, exchanging crypto for real-world stuff. "Exchanges" where crypto gets traded for crypto is just showing that it's got the same use case (so far) as baseball cards.

I get that lots of financial institutions want to make money on this by taking a percentage of what various suckers spend trading with each other. That makes perfect sense.

-W
Wait, are you saying people need to actually use Bitcoin to buy things instead of speculating on the value just increasing? Then how do expect us to all become rich off of this sure thing?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

How about buying a 4 Mil property in Florida with bitcoin - real enough for you?
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/In-a-first-you-can-buy-a-4-million-gulf-front-Tampa-Bay-home-with-bitcoin-_168979277

or

How about releasing a movie via blockchain?
http://www.tampabay.com/features/movies/A-Plant-City-movie-to-make-history-by-becoming-first-released-on-a-blockchain_167565905
No, not even close. How about this. You walk into a fast food restaurant and pay with bitcoin instead. And your employer paid your salary in bitcoin. And no one converts back to dollars in any of these transactions immediately because they don't want the volatility to cause their monthly paycheck to be bouncing up and down.

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waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1175 on: June 09, 2018, 08:18:26 PM »


How about buying a 4 Mil property in Florida with bitcoin - real enough for you?
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/In-a-first-you-can-buy-a-4-million-gulf-front-Tampa-Bay-home-with-bitcoin-_168979277


Quote
Once a home inspection is completed, the purchaser would be required to convert the bitcoins to U.S. dollars and put the full contract amount in escrow.

So it's still a cash transaction?

Yeah, I could also buy that place by selling $4 million worth of baseball cards...

-W

js82

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1176 on: June 10, 2018, 12:16:54 PM »

While it is a bit of the Wild West we should still be at a stage where one might find investment opportunities in the blockchain technology in a more round about way - not just the actual crypto currencies.

I would go even further:

Bitcoin - and cryptocurrencies in general, are not long-term investments in the way that equity is.  They are at best, shorter-term, relatively speculative investments that one might purchase if one believes them to be mispriced, with the expectation that their price moves towards a proper valuation in time.  On the other hand, companies selling the hardware to drive blockchain networks and/or companies using blockchain technology to create useful services/products with blockchain are potentially great investments going forward.  Witness the impact of mining demand on GPU prices as a recent example.

But anything resembling a currency (crypto or not) is a pretty awful choice as a long-term investment.  It works a lot like gold - it works as a short-term inflation hedge and/or makes sense as a short-term buy if it's significantly mispriced, but it doesn't actually PRODUCE value in itself.  Conversely, equity ownership produces real value as a company grows, *AND* acts as inflation hedge - because ultimately the value of a company is a function of the value of its assets and ability to produce future profits, both of which go up in the event of inflation.

It's possible(and for some cryptocurrencies, likely) that cryptos are currently underpriced and their value will go up with increasing demand/adoption.  But on a rational level they are not assets that produce income/value merely by holding them, and at some point as the technology matures they will arrive at a relative equilibrium, and will behave more like a typical currency(or a commodity, a la gold) - i.e. something makes zero sense as a long-term investment.

Mr Mark

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1177 on: June 11, 2018, 06:47:39 AM »
Bitcoin down 10% over the weekend after another breach on a Korean exchange. 

LMAO. It's down more than 50% this year.

talltexan

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1178 on: June 12, 2018, 09:27:19 AM »
Bitcoin has had other years in which it went down 50%. I'm not sure how the remarkable losses suffered in the early part of 2018 are meant to convince people it's any more flawed than what they thought during 2017 when it gained a lifetime's returns.

shadow

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1179 on: June 13, 2018, 06:07:36 AM »

While it is a bit of the Wild West we should still be at a stage where one might find investment opportunities in the blockchain technology in a more round about way - not just the actual crypto currencies.

I would go even further:

Bitcoin - and cryptocurrencies in general, are not long-term investments in the way that equity is.  They are at best, shorter-term, relatively speculative investments that one might purchase if one believes them to be mispriced, with the expectation that their price moves towards a proper valuation in time.  On the other hand, companies selling the hardware to drive blockchain networks and/or companies using blockchain technology to create useful services/products with blockchain are potentially great investments going forward.  Witness the impact of mining demand on GPU prices as a recent example.

But anything resembling a currency (crypto or not) is a pretty awful choice as a long-term investment.  It works a lot like gold - it works as a short-term inflation hedge and/or makes sense as a short-term buy if it's significantly mispriced, but it doesn't actually PRODUCE value in itself.  Conversely, equity ownership produces real value as a company grows, *AND* acts as inflation hedge - because ultimately the value of a company is a function of the value of its assets and ability to produce future profits, both of which go up in the event of inflation.

It's possible(and for some cryptocurrencies, likely) that cryptos are currently underpriced and their value will go up with increasing demand/adoption.  But on a rational level they are not assets that produce income/value merely by holding them, and at some point as the technology matures they will arrive at a relative equilibrium, and will behave more like a typical currency(or a commodity, a la gold) - i.e. something makes zero sense as a long-term investment.

Agree.

And I'll go even further.

Cryptos are no where near as good as gold store of value/speculation (if that is what someone is looking for instead of a real investment).  Gold at least has the benefit of physically existing.  Once extracted from the earth and purified into a shiny lump it can be secreted or deposited in a physical location and then it doesn't need any intervention to continue to exist. Cryptos are a data structure and series of computer rules which must be continuously implemented.   Without a constant infusion of computers furiously playing patty-cake with each other, and burning through prodigious amounts of non-renewable fossil fuels, cryptos would cease to exist.

Many crypto enthusiasts do not consider bitcoin or any "pure" currency function as functional medium-of-exchanges, digital gold, or stores of value. With consideration to other multipurpose crypto, the currency coins as a medium-of-exchange are subject to price volatility; usd-back and other stablecoins or even "fuel" types provide superior utility in this aspect. As digital gold or stores-of-value, currency coins depend on network sentiment, which ultimately is a greater fool scheme, and therefore fail as digital gold or store-of-value. Bitcoin, right now, still has legacy infrastructure and first mover as trading pair going for it, but that can swiftly change.


 

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 06:11:01 AM by shadow »

the_gastropod

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1180 on: June 13, 2018, 06:19:00 AM »
Bitcoin has had other years in which it went down 50%. I'm not sure how the remarkable losses suffered in the early part of 2018 are meant to convince people it's any more flawed than what they thought during 2017 when it gained a lifetime's returns.

Because there were a finite number of people to con. Bitcoin is no longer the niche nerd interest it was in early 2017. The absurd gains it saw last year generated  a ton of media attention, which drove the price “to the moon” toward the end of the year. I very much doubt most of normal people who bought into this malarkey feel very good about it anymore. Guess we’ll see...

shadow

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1181 on: June 13, 2018, 06:20:18 AM »
Portfolio update:

Reduced omg to less than 5% and diversified from that into other crypto (membership, network validation, governance types, etc). 


Rosy

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1182 on: June 13, 2018, 10:26:39 AM »

While it is a bit of the Wild West we should still be at a stage where one might find investment opportunities in the blockchain technology in a more round about way - not just the actual crypto currencies.

I would go even further:

Bitcoin - and cryptocurrencies in general, are not long-term investments in the way that equity is.  They are at best, shorter-term, relatively speculative investments that one might purchase if one believes them to be mispriced, with the expectation that their price moves towards a proper valuation in time.  On the other hand, companies selling the hardware to drive blockchain networks and/or companies using blockchain technology to create useful services/products with blockchain are potentially great investments going forward.  Witness the impact of mining demand on GPU prices as a recent example.

But anything resembling a currency (crypto or not) is a pretty awful choice as a long-term investment.  It works a lot like gold - it works as a short-term inflation hedge and/or makes sense as a short-term buy if it's significantly mispriced, but it doesn't actually PRODUCE value in itself.  Conversely, equity ownership produces real value as a company grows, *AND* acts as inflation hedge - because ultimately the value of a company is a function of the value of its assets and ability to produce future profits, both of which go up in the event of inflation.

It's possible(and for some cryptocurrencies, likely) that cryptos are currently underpriced and their value will go up with increasing demand/adoption.  But on a rational level they are not assets that produce income/value merely by holding them, and at some point as the technology matures they will arrive at a relative equilibrium, and will behave more like a typical currency(or a commodity, a la gold) - i.e. something makes zero sense as a long-term investment.

Agree.

And I'll go even further.

Cryptos are no where near as good as gold store of value/speculation (if that is what someone is looking for instead of a real investment).  Gold at least has the benefit of physically existing.  Once extracted from the earth and purified into a shiny lump it can be secreted or deposited in a physical location and then it doesn't need any intervention to continue to exist. Cryptos are a data structure and series of computer rules which must be continuously implemented.   Without a constant infusion of computers furiously playing patty-cake with each other, and burning through prodigious amounts of non-renewable fossil fuels, cryptos would cease to exist.

Many crypto enthusiasts do not consider bitcoin or any "pure" currency function as functional medium-of-exchanges, digital gold, or stores of value. With consideration to other multipurpose crypto, the currency coins as a medium-of-exchange are subject to price volatility; usd-back and other stablecoins or even "fuel" types provide superior utility in this aspect. As digital gold or stores-of-value, currency coins depend on network sentiment, which ultimately is a greater fool scheme, and therefore fail as digital gold or store-of-value. Bitcoin, right now, still has legacy infrastructure and first mover as trading pair going for it, but that can swiftly change.

That is an interesting statement. If the enthusiasts who probably work with it on a daily basis do not consider bitcoin as a functional medium of exchange ...
I'd love to know how to recognize .... Bitcoin, right now, still has legacy infrastructure and first mover as trading pair going for it? What form is that likely to take?
Actually, I thought that there were already better infrastructures than those built by Bitcoin, but I may have misunderstood what I read.

Portfolio update:

Reduced omg to less than 5% and diversified from that into other crypto (membership, network validation, governance types, etc). 



Shadow, you look like you are deep into this but I think that 5% of your portfolio is reasonable for any omg:) investment risk.
One rarely profits big by playing it entirely safe.

Just wondering if you follow some of the R&D - start-ups might be a bit tightlipped until they are ready to pounce at which point it would be too late to profit, yet again. I found it strategically brilliant that Ripple gave MIT $50mil for R&D.
I'm seriously considering making the Silvergate Bank in CA my omg investment because of their involvement with crypto. It's fun to speculate and I like the excitement and potential surrounding this new technology. Regardless, I'll have to do more due diligence all around before I voluntarily dip my toe into such volatility.

shadow

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1183 on: June 13, 2018, 11:20:46 AM »

That is an interesting statement. If the enthusiasts who probably work with it on a daily basis do not consider bitcoin as a functional medium of exchange ...
I'd love to know how to recognize .... Bitcoin, right now, still has legacy infrastructure and first mover as trading pair going for it? What form is that likely to take?
Actually, I thought that there were already better infrastructures than those built by Bitcoin, but I may have misunderstood what I read.

For something to be a decent medium of exchange, it would have to be low or zero loss of value from the time you acquired, or the use of it would be a negligible amount against loss, such as transaction fees. If you acquired a pure currency crypto for $100 and go to use, only for it to drop in value to $50, that is not a practical medium of exchange. Even if it can immediately convert in and out fiat, there is still the risk of flash volatility and also makes it very inconvenient to hold or regularly transact with. Pure currency crypto, the value base on network sentiment, aren't the best medium of exchange.

What I mean by bitcoin's legacy infrastructure and first mover trading pair is that bitcoin was the first crypto and it had 9+ years of economic structure built and supporting it, from exchanges to payment processors, gpu to asic mining, user and merchant adoption, etc. This was the infrastructure built around it. As for trading pair, newer crypto that arose could be acquired through trading btc. It was not very feasible to purchase these new crypto directly with fiat. Btc was the first trading pair for all other crypto.     

Quote
Shadow, you look like you are deep into this but I think that 5% of your portfolio is reasonable for any omg:) investment risk.
One rarely profits big by playing it entirely safe.

Just wondering if you follow some of the R&D - start-ups might be a bit tightlipped until they are ready to pounce at which point it would be too late to profit, yet again. I found it strategically brilliant that Ripple gave MIT $50mil for R&D.
I'm seriously considering making the Silvergate Bank in CA my omg investment because of their involvement with crypto. It's fun to speculate and I like the excitement and potential surrounding this new technology. Regardless, I'll have to do more due diligence all around before I voluntarily dip my toe into such volatility.

Out of my crypto portfolio, less than 5% is in omg. 95%+ are in others.

I don't really do start-ups, and rarely do ico's. Trying to evaluate start-ups is outside my domain. I look more at individual crypto and the underlying technology, what the team have done or achieved, what the crypto is trying to do or how it can be used (crypto is more than just looking for something that generates "dividends"; it has other valuations), any red flags, and adoption and utility potential.   
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 11:29:34 AM by shadow »

Nate79

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1184 on: June 13, 2018, 11:42:37 PM »
Price manipulation? Say it ain't so.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Bicycle_B

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1185 on: June 14, 2018, 07:31:35 AM »
Portfolio update:

Reduced omg to less than 5% and diversified from that into other crypto (membership, network validation, governance types, etc).

It's good to see a report of moves by someone who did buy crypto. Thanks, Shadow.

@Tonyahu, what's your update? You were near FI based on the value of your crypto holdings, and on the brink of selling, but that was near Bitcoin's peak to date. Did you sell or HODL? What % of your FI number is now in crypto, what % in non-crypto? (Has your FI number changed?)

jmecklenborg

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1186 on: June 28, 2018, 04:42:15 PM »
Hopefully this attachment works. 

I sold everything in early January, closed my Coinbase account, and a few weeks later in February walked into a bicycle shop with those proceeds and bought the bike you see here...with cold hard U.S. Dollars.  I felt okay buying a new toy with the windfall, and I do subscribe to Dave Ramsey's advice re: buying toys with cash. 

It felt good to get out of crypto and stop worrying about it.  I can't help but shake my head at the declines and the disappearance of crypto news from mainstream news. 

I want to thank Benjamin Graham's old The Intelligent Investor, and its lengthy discussion of investing versus speculating, for helping me recognize that crypto was in a crazy bubble in December and January.  The emotions were classic bubble emotions.  The gimmick changes but human emotions do not. 

I honestly feel for all of the people out there who have lost huge amounts of money.  Real money.  Some people who got in early are still way up, but nothing like what they had six months ago.  But there are many who blew their 2017 Christmas bonuses on...nothing.  I know one guy who I suspect lost $20k on Ripple (he bought at the exact high...Jan 4 or so) but he will not admit it. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 07:59:35 AM by jmecklenborg »

Retire-Canada

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1187 on: June 28, 2018, 04:53:54 PM »
...and bought the bike you see here...with hard cold U.S. Dollars. 

Nice bike. Have fun with it. :)

waltworks

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1188 on: June 28, 2018, 05:13:44 PM »
Pshaw, bikes are a fad. What's the realistic use case for wheels and gears? Ridiculous.

You're probably just one of those initial-spoke-offering shills trying to make a quick buck getting more suckers to buy into your worthless "low cost fun 150 year old transportation technology". I've reported you to the mods.

-W

Nate79

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1189 on: June 28, 2018, 10:48:57 PM »
Hopefully this attachment works. 

I sold everything in early January, closed my Coinbase account, and a few weeks later February walked into a bicycle shop with those proceeds and bought the bike you see here...with hard cold U.S. Dollars.  I felt okay buying a new toy with the windfall, and I do subscribe to Dave Ramsey's advice re: buying toys with cash. 

It felt good to get out of crypto and stop worrying about it.  I can't help but shake my head at the declines and the disappearance of crypto news from mainstream news. 

I want to thank Benjamin Graham's old The Intelligent Investor, and its lengthy discussion of investing versus speculating, for helping me recognize that crypto was in a crazy bubble in December and January.  The emotions were classic bubble emotions.  The gimmick changes but human emotions do not. 

I honestly feel for all of the people out there who have lost huge amounts of money.  Real money.  Some people who got in early are still way up, but nothing like what they had six months ago.  But there are many who blew their 2017 Christmas bonuses on...nothing.  I know one guy who I suspect lost $20k on Ripple (he bought at the exact high...Jan 4 or so) but he will not admit it.
Why didn't you buy the bike with your crypto? Oh yeah that's right. No one really takes crypto to buy anything and no one actually uses to buy anything.

Nice bike!

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Bicycle_B

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1190 on: June 29, 2018, 09:28:44 AM »
Hmm, Kraken showing signs of manipulation in Tether:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tether-kraken-trades/

Tonyahu

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1191 on: June 29, 2018, 03:49:48 PM »
Hope everyone is doing well and enjoying this bear season.

If you don't have a position and are interested in this asset class, this is a great time to start DCA in, given current valuations.

I think we will see an SEC qualified custodian and a Bitcoin ETF within 12 months. In addition, I expect the market capitalization to be over 1 T by the end of 2019, current at 225B.

Cheers!

Bicycle_B

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1192 on: June 30, 2018, 07:58:54 AM »
@Tonyahu, you're back! Cheers.

Last time I saw posts from you, it was around December and you were considering selling some crypto to shift partially into non-crypto assets. You almost had enough to FI if the 4% rule were to be applied, but were hesitant about the risks of stocks IIRC.

So what happened? Did you sell any crypto, or are you still pretty much all in?

aspiringnomad

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1193 on: June 30, 2018, 10:44:42 AM »

this is a great time to start DCA in, given current valuations.


I'd be interested to see your mathematical valuation analysis.

maizeman

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1194 on: June 30, 2018, 11:20:07 AM »
Hope everyone is doing well and enjoying this bear season.

Yup. I'm back to getting to read about cool tech and interesting new approaches which may or may not work.

Much more fun than having the same argument over and over again about how power consumption per bitcoin transaction isn't a useful metric, since you cannot spend more power to send more transactions, and sending fewer doesn't reduce power consumption.

I hope you are well @Tonyahu

JAYSLOL

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1195 on: July 01, 2018, 07:32:22 PM »
Pshaw, bikes are a fad. What's the realistic use case for wheels and gears? Ridiculous.

You're probably just one of those initial-spoke-offering shills trying to make a quick buck getting more suckers to buy into your worthless "low cost fun 150 year old transportation technology". I've reported you to the mods.

-W

LOL

Tonyahu

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1196 on: July 01, 2018, 09:58:06 PM »
Hope everyone is doing well and enjoying this bear season.

Yup. I'm back to getting to read about cool tech and interesting new approaches which may or may not work.

Much more fun than having the same argument over and over again about how power consumption per bitcoin transaction isn't a useful metric, since you cannot spend more power to send more transactions, and sending fewer doesn't reduce power consumption.

I hope you are well @Tonyahu

Glad you are still learning! Discussions about Consensus Mechanisms are hard enough to have, let alone someone who doesn't understand basic nuances of SHA 256 PoW. It get's more fun when we dive into PoS vs DBFT vs DPOS....etc....etc...

:]


this is a great time to start DCA in, given current valuations.


I'd be interested to see your mathematical valuation analysis.

Hey mad, glad to see you are interested! Check out some of the work done by Chris Burniske :]

@Tonyahu, you're back! Cheers.

Last time I saw posts from you, it was around December and you were considering selling some crypto to shift partially into non-crypto assets. You almost had enough to FI if the 4% rule were to be applied, but were hesitant about the risks of stocks IIRC.

So what happened? Did you sell any crypto, or are you still pretty much all in?

Current allocation of traditional assets would not last forever if I started drawing 4% now (because its mostly in cash and precious metals), I feel equities and real estate is over priced right now and I am a patient buyer. I am still at a 60% savings rate from my business and work/life balance is absolutely astonishing. Technically if I went all in equities now with it, I would still be able to survive most situations I propped up in my Monte Carlo simulations but I am going to play it slightly different.

Life is good!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 10:00:46 PM by Tonyahu »

runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1197 on: July 02, 2018, 01:49:18 AM »
Nothing reinforces my conviction that crypto is doomed to burn more effectively than posts from crypto boosters.

Literally the last post before Tonyahu's update is a Bloomberg article indicating that Tether is being manipulated on Kraken, and instead of addressing that in any way, we instead get a prediction that the crypto market will more than quadruple in size within eighteen months, offered with no supporting argument.

maizeman

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1198 on: July 02, 2018, 05:48:31 AM »
Nothing reinforces my conviction that crypto is doomed to burn more effectively than posts from crypto boosters.

Literally the last post before Tonyahu's update is a Bloomberg article indicating that Tether is being manipulated on Kraken, and instead of addressing that in any way, we instead get a prediction that the crypto market will more than quadruple in size within eighteen months, offered with no supporting argument.

I don't think it is at all controversial that Tether's "dollar backing" seems likely to be fraudulent. In fact didn't this already get discussed a fairly long way up thread? Yup, at least as early as January/page 18.

So I suspect the reason you don't see more responses to Bicycle_B's (really interesting) link isn't that people are ignoring it, but because people have already been assuming something or other was fishy with tether for months.

runbikerun

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Re: OFFICIAL: Blockchain / Crypto-Currency Portfolios and Discussion
« Reply #1199 on: July 02, 2018, 05:58:50 AM »
Oh, I know the details of Tether on Bitfinex have been discussed before. Tonyahu, however, has not even mentioned it once. Ignoring it is pretty consistent with their posting history.