Author Topic: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog  (Read 56437 times)

MMM

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KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« on: March 01, 2014, 10:46:33 AM »
Hi all,

In the past, there has been some discussion about the KISS trust company on this forum. Various opinions were expressed, including one where a senior member of the group wrote "This scam product has been discussed here before.  Stay away.  It's a marketing ploy."

That discussion happened to make it to the first page of Google, and someone from the KISS trust company noticed. They did some snooping, dug up my family's street address (which I deliberately do not make public on this blog) and their law firm sent us a slew of registered mails.

Inside the mail was a legal threat insisting that I take the post down because of it allegedly being untrue and libelious.

I forwarded their complaint to a lawyer friend of mine, and he is looking into it in more detail to make sure we are within our rights to leave the post up.

An update on this: It is absolutely within my right to leave that post up. The well established "Section 230" rules explicitly let website owners off the hook for things their users say (as long as they are not intellectual property violations): https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/230

It appears to me that the KISS trust company has a practice of Googling itself and trying to censor content and discussions that it feels are "libelous". And this definition even includes some random person expressing the opinion that the company is a scam.

And since their law firm would obviously be aware of that section 230 limitation, it also appears they sent me that threat to intimidate me, even knowing quite well that I could not be held responsible for the user's post.

I'll leave it up to the readers to decide if this is a good business practice. If not, you might want to spread the word of this incident, so others can be warned about the company's business tactics. Just be careful, because the next registered mail might be in YOUR mailbox!

If I hear from them again, I may have to make a top-level MMM article to document what has happened, because shit like this really should not be happening and the world needs to be warned about companies that attempt it.

You don't "protect your company reputation" by gagging others who speak out against it. You protect it by doing good work and making sure that your OWN website displays accurate facts.

Any further legal help would be welcome, since it would be nice to work against this from both ends of the table.

Another update: they DID continue the harassment, by sending me a second complaint about THIS thread. Fuck that. Here's the main-blog article as promised: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal-threats-great-lawyer-wanted/

This is not intended to harm the company's business - simply to report what they are doing, so they will stop doing it. If KISS issues an apology and a promise to NEVER harass any website owner again over similar complaints, I'll gladly publish their retraction and all will be well.

If they continue to raise the threat level, this story just might become interesting enough to get picked up in the Washington Post! We can hope, anyway.

This
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:08:54 AM by MMM »

matchewed

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2014, 10:54:37 AM »
IMO that is a bullshit move on their part. That's all I've got to say on that subject. Wish I could help in some way.

*edit* added IMO for clarification that the aforementioned bullshit move in no way represents fact; unless it is a fact that attempting to scrub any negative reviews of your product or services is a bullshit move.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:04:01 AM by matchewed »

Daleth

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2014, 10:58:45 AM »
For future reference, when we post opinions about certain products, funds, etc., we should all make a practice of prefacing it with the words, "In my opinion..." As in, "In my opinion, X product is just a marketing ploy" or "In my opinion, it seems like a scam" (as opposed to "is a scam").

With the disclaimer that this kind of thing has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and I can't provide legal advice in advance about stuff people haven't written yet, at least in the US it is all but impossible to bring a libel case against an opinion that is clearly labeled as such. Libel means posting false FACTS about someone (a person or a company)--facts as in, statements that can be objectively verified as either true or false--and opinions by definition are not verifiable facts. (That's why I suggest "seems like a scam" rather than "is a scam" above--to ensure that you're so far into the opinion zone that no competent lawyer will bother harassing you.)

Note that this only works if what you're posting actually is an opinion. You can't say, for instance, "In my opinion, the CEO of X company is a felon." He or she either is or is not a felon--that's objectively verifiable--so calling it an opinion doesn't save you from a libel charge. The distinction is subtle; probably if you said, "In my opinion, the CEO of X company should be prosecuted for a felony," that's pretty clearly an opinion.

This FAQ is about defamation, but the rules are the same:
http://www.chillingeffects.org/defamation/faq#QID715
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:01:04 AM by Daleth »

LDoon

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2014, 01:02:52 PM »
Remember that sending take-down letters is fairly cheap (at least in the legal world) and that it's the next steps that get expensive.  Glad to hear you're having your attorney handle it though. 

You might consider either revising / updating the forum engagement rules.  Or add a click-acceptance disclaimer each time a user wants to post in or view the forum (i.e., user acknowledges that the views expressed herein are not the necessarily the views of Mr. MM, and that the information is not fact-checked.  Enter at your own risk, etc.).

Exflyboy

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2014, 01:29:28 PM »
I guess whatever we feel about this we have to be careful, because we basically can't afford it. Just to defend yourself against a big lawsuit could seriously challenge someone's financial independence so it would be wise not to "poke the bear" so to speak.

Frank

MDM

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 01:37:46 PM »
Topical thread over here: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952

Especially down at post http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952#p1971344

Perhaps MMM's attorney could collaborate with Boglehead's attorney.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 03:51:31 PM by MDM »

foobar

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 02:57:07 PM »
Sending registered mail for legal issues is pretty standard. Aren't you required to have a registered agent if you want safe harbor protection for running the forums?

FWIW most of the current legal cases absolve sites of legal responsibility for posts (assuming the site is following proper legal procedure). The posters on the other hand are held liable for their actions. See the various yelp and angie lists lawsuits over the past 3 years.  Wether calling a company a scam is libelous is something for the lawyers to hash out. I am sure the legal fees will far exceed any damages awarded:)


Hi all,

In the past, there has been some discussion about the KISS trust company on this forum. Various opinions were expressed, including one where a senior member of the group wrote "This scam product has been discussed here before.  Stay away.  It's a marketing ploy."

That discussion happened to make it to the first page of Google, and someone from the KISS trust company noticed. They did some snooping, dug up my family's street address (which I deliberately do not make public on this blog) and their law firm sent us a slew of registered mails.

Inside the mail was a legal threat insisting that I take the post down because of it allegedly being untrue and libelious.

I forwarded their complaint to a lawyer friend of mine, and he is looking into it in more detail to make sure we are within our rights to leave the post up.

But to be safe, I removed that thread for now and decided to let you all know that this is the reason.

It appears to me that the KISS trust company has a practice of Googling itself and trying to censor content and discussions that it feels are "libelious". And this definition even includes some random person expressing the opinion that the company is a scam.

After all, you wouldn't want random strangers saying mean things about you on the Internet, right? Best to try to silence them all.

Heck, maybe I should start doing this too - threatening MSN, Yahoo, and Conde Nast (who owns Reddit) every time somebody says something "libelious" about me or the MMM blog in general. That would greatly improve the blog's reputation and we could finally get the respect we all deserve!!

I'll leave it up to the readers to decide if this is a good business practice. If not, you might want to spread the word of this incident, so others can be warned about the company's business tactics. Just be careful, because the next registered mail might be in YOUR mailbox!

If I hear from them again, I may have to make a top-level MMM article to document what has happened, because shit like this really should not be happening and the world needs to be warned about companies that attempt it.

You don't "protect your company reputation" by gagging others who speak out against it. You protect it by doing good work and making sure that your OWN website displays accurate facts.

Any further legal help would be welcome, since it would be nice to work against this from both ends of the table.

BPA

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 03:40:16 PM »
Interesting.  I'd never even heard of the K-word Trust before (can we call them that or is The Trust that Cannot Be Named a better idea?), but I do think that I would never want to do business with a company that would try to silence critics rather than do something to rectify the problem. 

Methinks this is an example of Corporate Complainypants.

Fireman

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 03:58:15 PM »
I did a quick Google search and found lots of positive information including links to their website, their blog, and several articles mentioning the company, all positively.  None of the typical review sites even popped up in the first two pages and BBB had them at an A+ with no complaints even filed in three years.  Either they are squeaky clean or you're not the first person to receive some sort of cease and desist order.

Nords

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2014, 04:47:00 PM »
Any further legal help would be welcome, since it would be nice to work against this from both ends of the table.
I'm not a lawyer, MMM, but the last FinCon had at least one lawyer give a talk on this subject.  You might want to e-mail PT Money for the names/experience of the legal experts (and the bloggers) who have dealt with these cases.

As annoying as businesses like this may be, "in my opinion" they're not worth the respect of a response.  Far more is achieved by ignoring them than by confronting them... or by forwarding the letter to Liz Weston, Jean Chatzky, Farnoosh, and the rest of the media!
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sol

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2014, 05:04:50 PM »
I'll own up to being the source of the problem, the original poster who labeled these folks as dirty.  Hooray, I finally amounted to something in life!  I got MMM in trouble!

My scam designation was in part based on an earlier thread about KISS Trusts, which is now apparently lost to the sands of time because I've been unable to find it.  There were several people here talking about the services these K-holes were promising, and how they are essentially just branding an existing form of legal document with a catchy name and then charging a premium for it.

Setting aside for a moment the ridiculousness of holding MMM liable for my mouth, I didn't mean "scam" in the usual context of "will take all of your money and move to China" but rather in the "will blatantly over-charge you for services you don't need while making promises they know the can't keep."

In most cases a 529 plan is a better option, in the typical scenario of wanting to set aside money for a descendant to be paid out in the event of your death.  In all cases the best option is to just stay alive, or die and use your will to give the money to the people you want to have it.  All of the claimed tax benefits of these trusts are wishful thinking.  Everyone pays taxes, and attempts to dodge are just going to get you in trouble.

From my understanding, the KISS Trust basically work like this...

1.  You want to give money to your kid (or whoever).

2.  So you give your money to me instead, irrevocably, with instructions that I should give it to your kid.

3.  I charge you a fee to give your money to your kid, slowly over time. 

In the meantime, all of your money is mine to do with as I please. I can invest it, spend it, lend against it, use it as capital, or wad it up and smoke it.  As long as I promise to pay your kid some amount (which is less than you gave me) over time.  And even if I don't, what are you going to do?  You irrevocably gave your money to me.  It's mine now, and all you have to show for it is my good word that I intend to give some of it back.

Is this really any more unethical than a mutual fund that charges you a 2.5% fee to invest your money in funds that underperform the market as a whole?  Or a financial advisor who recommends investment because he gets a commission if you buy particular funds?  Probably not more unethical, but neither is this a service the world wants or needs.

The KISS Trust people are VERY good at PR.  All of the earlier negative reviews have mysteriously disappeared, and now all google finds is their carefully crafted PR message, including illegitimate "endorsements" taken out of context like the Bogleheads thread linked above.   

Now they've gotten every financial blog in the multiverse to write about their product, usually favorably.  But I'm not a blog, I'm just some guy with no financial interest in whether any of you buy their product or not, and my honest opinion is that these guys are modern day snake oil salesman, prepackaging an existing product in a fancy wrapper and exploiting the financially illiterate masses by blanketing the internet in astroturfed pseudo-reviews. 

There, NOW they have an unfavorable review on the internet to worry about.  I hope that I've included the phrases Kiss Trust and KissTrust review in this thread often enough that it rises to the top of the google search results.

And if the Kiss Trust people are upset about it, MMM can have them send me a cease and desist letter for reviewing their product online. 

My apologies to the MMM family for complicating things by voicing my opinion on the internet.

nyxst

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2014, 05:14:09 PM »
Totally sucks :( that is all.

ch12

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2014, 05:41:49 PM »
I saw Mrs. MM's tweet about the legal action: https://twitter.com/mrsmoneym/status/431844469109846016

Thanks for being open with us. Seriously, IMO they don't have legal grounds to sue MMM (the corp/blog). Tim Ferriss gamed the way that people would Google Tim Ferriss Scam by making an article pretty much titled that. You can protect your internet reputation in better ways than threatening a blogger for hosting discussions.

Fireman

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2014, 05:50:41 PM »
I hope that I've included the phrases Kiss Trust and KissTrust review in this thread often enough that it rises to the top of the google search results.

Top of the third page!

sol

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2014, 06:01:14 PM »
Top of the third page!

Good, maybe their PR people will register here just to give us their side of the story. 

Or maybe they'll just have their lawyers send MMM another letter and he can take this thread down too.  You know, just to be safe.  Just in case.  While the lawyer looks into it.

MilStachian

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2014, 06:13:11 PM »
Class act KISS Trust!  I'm sure threatening legal action is a great way to gain new customers! 

I hope everyone on the interwebs comes across this post and sees what you're really all about.  Maybe we can promote it by all mentioning their name more?

KISS Trust!
KISS Trust!
Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without.

arebelspy

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2014, 06:14:58 PM »
Top of the third page!

Good, maybe their PR people will register here just to give us their side of the story. 

Or maybe they'll just have their lawyers send MMM another letter

Probably this.

Companies resort to legal threats because the complaints/reviews are legitimate.

I, for one, would donate to an MMM legal defense fund, if necessary, to keep speech free on the forums and keep slimy companies from abusing the legal system to silence legitimate criticism.

I also find it ironic that Kiss Trust blatantly stole the words of Bogleheads users (above) and then when caught claimed the comments were "part of the public domain."

Yeah?  Well so is my opinion that Kiss Trust sucks*.

I also note that the Bogleheads post about them is page 1 of Google.  Maybe someone can post in that thread about the lawsuit, linking to this one?

*Note: This is an opinion, not a statement of fact, and represents solely the opinion of this author, and anyone else who posts agreement, not necessarily the owner of this blog.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 06:17:10 PM by arebelspy »
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MMM

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2014, 06:45:39 PM »
I, for one, would donate to an MMM legal defense fund, if necessary, to keep speech free on the forums and keep slimy companies from abusing the legal system to silence legitimate criticism.

Aww, thanks Arebelspy. But don't worry, this forum can probably afford to pay for its own legal hassles, just because of that ad banner at the bottom. It gets enough occasional clicks, multiplied across many views, to pay for Sol's indiscretions ;-)

WE should all be donating to YOU and the other moderators, for the excellent work you do behind the scenes keeping this forum running so well. And for encouraging me to set it up in the first place. And equal thanks to all the people who host the questions from newcomers.

This is a great forum and an incredible community, which is probably why the forum alone now gets something like 3 million pageviews per month and shows up at the top of Google whenever anybody mentions anything. Let's use this power for good.

Fireman

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2014, 07:44:29 PM »
A cursory look at their review page and the Bogleheads logo and content appear to have been removed.

The heavy handed tactics by SuckTrust reminded me of a negative review gone awry.

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2014, 08:04:47 PM »
Companies attempting legal action to silence critics, and it becoming a much bigger deal than if they ignored it is called the Streisand Effect.

Maybe Kiss Trust will one day be on the example list on Wikipedia.
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foobar

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2014, 08:21:33 PM »
I think your descriptions of trusts is probably liberalous:) I haven't read about KISS trusts in particular but no trust administrators  don't own the money. The trust does and the trustees have a ton of guidelines to follow. The ones I have seen always have an investment plan of some type (ranging from  specific mutual funds to general advice guidelines) and withdrawal rules (get 4% of the value per year with the trust paying out 100% on the 40th birthday).

That being said make sure a trust makes sense before committing to it. Most of us can get by without funding trusts until after we die (i.e. don't want you 18 year old to get 500k). And if you have a complicated situation (net worth north of 5 million, multiple spouses and step kids, want to skip a generation with an inheritence...) you should probably talk to an attorney that knows a lot about your specific problems.

I do love the example of 5000 dollars being worth a million(nothing like getting 11% after taxes and fees for 60 years) when the kid cashes in the trust 60 years later. Sounds great but in 60 years a million dollars is going to be more like 200k in todays dollars. Still a nice gain but it doesn't sound as cool:)

I'll own up to being the source of the problem, the original poster who labeled these folks as dirty.  Hooray, I finally amounted to something in life!  I got MMM in trouble!

My scam designation was in part based on an earlier thread about KISS Trusts, which is now apparently lost to the sands of time because I've been unable to find it.  There were several people here talking about the services these K-holes were promising, and how they are essentially just branding an existing form of legal document with a catchy name and then charging a premium for it.

Setting aside for a moment the ridiculousness of holding MMM liable for my mouth, I didn't mean "scam" in the usual context of "will take all of your money and move to China" but rather in the "will blatantly over-charge you for services you don't need while making promises they know the can't keep."

In most cases a 529 plan is a better option, in the typical scenario of wanting to set aside money for a descendant to be paid out in the event of your death.  In all cases the best option is to just stay alive, or die and use your will to give the money to the people you want to have it.  All of the claimed tax benefits of these trusts are wishful thinking.  Everyone pays taxes, and attempts to dodge are just going to get you in trouble.

From my understanding, the KISS Trust basically work like this...

1.  You want to give money to your kid (or whoever).

2.  So you give your money to me instead, irrevocably, with instructions that I should give it to your kid.

3.  I charge you a fee to give your money to your kid, slowly over time. 

In the meantime, all of your money is mine to do with as I please. I can invest it, spend it, lend against it, use it as capital, or wad it up and smoke it.  As long as I promise to pay your kid some amount (which is less than you gave me) over time.  And even if I don't, what are you going to do?  You irrevocably gave your money to me.  It's mine now, and all you have to show for it is my good word that I intend to give some of it back.

Is this really any more unethical than a mutual fund that charges you a 2.5% fee to invest your money in funds that underperform the market as a whole?  Or a financial advisor who recommends investment because he gets a commission if you buy particular funds?  Probably not more unethical, but neither is this a service the world wants or needs.

The KISS Trust people are VERY good at PR.  All of the earlier negative reviews have mysteriously disappeared, and now all google finds is their carefully crafted PR message, including illegitimate "endorsements" taken out of context like the Bogleheads thread linked above.   

Now they've gotten every financial blog in the multiverse to write about their product, usually favorably.  But I'm not a blog, I'm just some guy with no financial interest in whether any of you buy their product or not, and my honest opinion is that these guys are modern day snake oil salesman, prepackaging an existing product in a fancy wrapper and exploiting the financially illiterate masses by blanketing the internet in astroturfed pseudo-reviews. 

There, NOW they have an unfavorable review on the internet to worry about.  I hope that I've included the phrases Kiss Trust and KissTrust review in this thread often enough that it rises to the top of the google search results.

And if the Kiss Trust people are upset about it, MMM can have them send me a cease and desist letter for reviewing their product online. 

My apologies to the MMM family for complicating things by voicing my opinion on the internet.

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2014, 09:07:15 PM »
*Note: This is an opinion, not a statement of fact, and represents solely the opinion of this author, and anyone else who posts agreement, not necessarily the owner of this blog.

Maybe we should all just put this in our signature line? It should be the default setting when you create an account. Good luck with this BS MMM!
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BPA

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2014, 09:21:16 PM »
At the risk of sounding like the MMM equivalent of a Trekkie, this reminds me of when that dickhead credit card company tried to get "Badassity" removed from the site banner and they were jettisoned instead.

Principles matter.


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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2014, 09:29:28 PM »
I would like to just note, perhaps tangentially, perhaps not, that Kiss Trust has a Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust

It my own personal opinion (and not the opinion of the manager of this site, original poster, or any other thread participant), that their Wikipedia page is a glorified advertisement. If you look at the edit history, it was almost entirely written by editor "Bart.the.bard", whose only other editing contribution was to the article on "cover-up" (hmm... small irony there?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bart.the.bard

This is the type of article that, in my opinion, tends to be set up by a company representative in order to just sit there on Wikipedia, sending the message to curious potential customers that they are somehow noteworthy. No other Wikipedia article links to their page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Kiss_Trust

I'm no expert Wikipedia editor, by in my opinion the article should either be deleted as not noteworthy, or toned down to be more neutral, perhaps by including information about controversies regarding their PR behavior.

I will add that it is, in my opinion, a travesty that Kiss Trust has a Wikipedia article and Mr. Money Mustache does not.

MMM

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2014, 10:12:39 PM »
That's interesting, because on July 20th, 2013 a user calling himself "BartWilson" signed up for this forum, and for his first two posts, wrote promotional-sounding things about KISS trust.

The posts were noticed and flagged by Sol on September 13th, and the account was deleted. We still have the online records with timestamps of everything in the moderator section of this forum, which is why I was able to look it up just now.

It could easily be just a coincidence, but who knows - in a company that manages its online reputation so actively, it is entirely possible that they have fake people out there adding promotional content.

This happens VERY regularly on this forum - almost every day, the moderators have to flag and delete fake corporate people pretending to be real people who are recommending products and services via thinly-veiled advertisements.

jnik

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2014, 07:07:11 AM »
This type of thing is red meat to the good folks at Popehat (link to their free speech resources page, which, like all free legal advice, is 100% guaranteed to be worth what you paid for it.) There's also a "contact" link there in case things escalate and they may be able to put up a request for pro-bono counsel.

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2014, 11:40:44 AM »
I hope that I've included the phrases Kiss Trust and KissTrust review in this thread often enough that it rises to the top of the google search results.

Top of the third page!

I found us near the top of the second! We're gaining traction!
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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2014, 01:59:43 PM »
Need to cross post to a bunch of other threads if you want to improve your google page rank.:) (Actually I don't think this works anymore).

Popelink did have a link to one of the resources I remember: http://www.dmlp.org/section-230 . The game of chicken is that if you do nothing and the sue, you both are spending 20k+ in legal fees to have the case dismissed. Who wants to burn 20k more?

I hope that I've included the phrases Kiss Trust and KissTrust review in this thread often enough that it rises to the top of the google search results.

Top of the third page!

I found us near the top of the second! We're gaining traction!

sol

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2014, 02:12:49 PM »
I found us near the top of the second! We're gaining traction!

In that case, I'm sure the KISS Trust people have already found this thread as part of their routine review of their product's online reputation, and will show up here in short order.

I for one welcome their participation, as long as it's civil.  I'd love to have a knowledgeable company rep come explain why they think their product is worthwhile.  Because I don't see it, but I'm open to being educated.

But my expectation, based on their previous posting here and similar goings-on in the Everest Wealth Management thread, is that we'll instead see anonymous vitriolic rantings posted from a newly created account with less than five posts.  These litigious companies aren't usually interested in actually engaging the online community, they just want to whitewash negative reviews. 

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2014, 04:16:05 PM »
In my opinion the KISS trust folks sound like cyber-bullying douchebags.  But of course that is only my opinion and all.
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soccerluvof4

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2014, 05:04:28 AM »
I think a simple disclaimer on posts/view points automatically when a user replies would eliminate any risks. We all have a right to our View points.  Seems like just some simple language will clear this up.
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arebelspy

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2014, 08:14:45 AM »
I think a simple disclaimer on posts/view points automatically when a user replies would eliminate any risks. We all have a right to our View points.  Seems like just some simple language will clear this up.

From what I understand of the internet, this isn't even necessary. MMM is not responsible for our opinions. (Of course I am not a lawyer, and he/anyone else should consult their own on that.)

But usually site owners don't want to fight it due to the legal expense involved, even if it is a bogus claim.
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oldtoyota

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2014, 08:39:38 AM »
Companies attempting legal action to silence critics, and it becoming a much bigger deal than if they ignored it is called the Streisand Effect.

Maybe Kiss Trust will one day be on the example list on Wikipedia.

Love the Streisand Effect. I never gave much thought to KISS before. Now, I'll know to avoid it--thanks to their cease and desist letter!

Sol--You troublemaker. =-)


tomsang

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2014, 01:01:25 PM »
In my opinion, I think we should all support them.  Is there a way to Google something, have their glorious business be listed, click on the link to learn about their wonderful products, and allow Google and others to make a few bucks on adclicks?  If there ad budget is spent by MMM, then they will have less dollars to attract the sheep.

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2014, 07:28:07 AM »
Stripping out the actual content of this thread, it really shows the true colors and strength of the group here. Really appreciate hearing some of the behind the scenes work MMM and the mods do to keep the signal to noise ratio so high. Great stuff.

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2014, 09:01:44 AM »
I have experience with companies like Kiss Trust. Working in the online product space I come across companies all the time who fake positive reviews and leave false negative reviews on competitors sites to destroy their reputations and funnel users to their product or service. I don't know whether or not the product is a scam, but frankly I wouldn't want a company who acts in such a deceitful way to have their hands anywhere near my money. If they can use underhand tactics to forge their online presence then you can be assured they won't hesitate to do the same in order to keep as much of your money as possible.

If you're looking for a Kiss Trust review, searching the internet for "Kiss Trust scam" to see whether or not they are legit, or just searching for "Kiss Trust" then my advice is to look a little deeper than the first few pages of Google and consider why all you're seeing is rainbows and butterflies from these . It's my opinion that any company who silences anyone who voices their honest opinion about their product or service can NOT be trusted. They obviously have something to hide.

starguru

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2014, 02:17:30 PM »
The folks at popehat.com (a First Amendment blog) deal with exactly this type of thing.  MMM might want to give Ken over there an email. 

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2014, 05:28:14 PM »
EDIT: Please disregard.  I only re-posted MDM's URL: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 05:33:41 PM by LowER »

webguy

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2014, 01:53:39 PM »
It is my opinion that this post is now #8 on the 1st page of google: https://www.google.com/#q=kiss+trust

Nice work Kiss Trust. You might have just shot yourself in the foot.

jordanread

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2014, 06:39:13 PM »
Nice work Kiss Trust. You might have just shot yourself in the foot.
Oh, and I'm sure (my opinion is that) the new post on the blog helped a lot, even if he didn't mention them by name.

And @sol...I found it!!! And it's all your fault :P
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Bank

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2014, 07:02:09 PM »
I look forward to continuing to not buy KISS products.  Bunch of donkeys.

*This is my personal opinion and does not reflect the views of the owner of this blog.  As far as I know.*

dragoncar

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2014, 07:13:47 PM »
Commenting to follow thread.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:15:29 PM by dragoncar »

Ohio Teacher

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2014, 07:52:39 PM »
Front page of a Google search!  https://www.google.com/search?q=kiss+trust
I had never heard of the Streisand effect before, and evidently neither had their minions.

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2014, 07:53:18 PM »
EDITED: Because, as usual...arebelspy is the bestest grown up. :-)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:25:20 PM by jordanread »
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arebelspy

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2014, 08:09:29 PM »
I would personally vote not to do that in this thread (amusing as it is), lest a searcher for Kiss Trust comes across this thread searching for them and decides that we are the immature ones, rather than Kiss Trust.  I'd say edit that out, let's stick with the facts, but up to you guys.  :)
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dragoncar

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2014, 08:14:39 PM »
(amusing as it is), lest a searcher for Kiss Trust comes across this thread searching for them and decides that we are the immature ones

I'm not sure they'd be wrong, but I can remove it.  I kinda feel like that ship has already sailed.

Edit:  although my (non legal advice) opinion is that clearly satirical juvenile joking is far safer as protected speech.  So it would probably benefit MMM to characterize us as a bunch of smart asses that nobody would ever take seriously. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:19:47 PM by dragoncar »

arebelspy

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2014, 08:23:54 PM »
Yeah, but when the story blows up and press come to cite this thread, it'll be better to have it "clean."  ;)
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jordanread

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2014, 08:29:23 PM »
Yeah, but when the story blows up and press come to cite this thread, it'll be better to have it "clean."  ;)
To that end, I would like to re-iterate that, all joking aside, we would more than welcome a civilized discussion with KISS Trust or their agents (especially if they identify themselves as such) to answer questions and respond to any statements that may or may not have been made.
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dragoncar

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2014, 08:30:21 PM »
Yeah, but when the story blows up and press come to cite this thread, it'll be better to have it "clean."  ;)

I doubt it would blow up.  Unless MMM told his story to one of the many reporters who have interviewed him

jordanread

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Re: KISS Trust has sent a legal threat to this blog
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2014, 08:33:00 PM »
I doubt it would blow up.  Unless MMM told his story to one of the many reporters who have interviewed him
I think the power of the community could definitely make this into a thing.
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