Author Topic: Is it too late [bitcoin]?  (Read 14172 times)

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #100 on: November 28, 2017, 08:53:07 AM »
What exactly are the requirements you're referring to that are necessary to access VISA services?

What exactly are the requirements you're referring to necessary to access bitcoin services?
Off the top of my head, I'm thinking:
- reliable computer
- reliable internet access
- reliable power
- translation services
- vendors and people who accept bitcoin

Which countries specifically meet the requirements for bitcoin, but not VISA?

This was less of a technical point and more of a logistical point. Bringing the "unbanked" into the global economy through traditional financial services is not very efficient from a brick and mortar perspective.

To use VISA you also need identification and proper financial services available to citizens to utilize it. This means that the citizen of a country that does not have modern financial services available to them or do not have the proper identification can not obtain a VISA account through banking services in their region. Someone who is not "banked" is not capable of utilizing the VISA payment network. VISA saying that they're in 200 countries just means that there are some merchants in those countries that accept VISA or that somewhere in that country there are financial services available through which a person could obtain an account. That doesn't mean that citizens in those countries are able to access VISA services themselves and therefore they're not able to participate in the global economy.

Because bitcoin does not require identification, this means that anyone with a phone and an internet connection can use the payment network. Capital can simply flow naturally through peer to peer means if needed similar to the way that cash flows into these regions. VISA is more merchant-to-consumer based transactions where Bitcoin is more peer-to-peer based transactions. There is massive potential for bitcoin to bring in billions of people to the global economy that are not a part of it today.

Telecaster

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #101 on: November 28, 2017, 09:40:04 AM »
What exactly are the requirements you're referring to that are necessary to access VISA services?

What exactly are the requirements you're referring to necessary to access bitcoin services?
Off the top of my head, I'm thinking:
- reliable computer
- reliable internet access
- reliable power
- translation services
- vendors and people who accept bitcoin

Which countries specifically meet the requirements for bitcoin, but not VISA?

This was less of a technical point and more of a logistical point. Bringing the "unbanked" into the global economy through traditional financial services is not very efficient from a brick and mortar perspective.

To use VISA you also need identification and proper financial services available to citizens to utilize it. This means that the citizen of a country that does not have modern financial services available to them or do not have the proper identification can not obtain a VISA account through banking services in their region. Someone who is not "banked" is not capable of utilizing the VISA payment network. VISA saying that they're in 200 countries just means that there are some merchants in those countries that accept VISA or that somewhere in that country there are financial services available through which a person could obtain an account. That doesn't mean that citizens in those countries are able to access VISA services themselves and therefore they're not able to participate in the global economy.

Because bitcoin does not require identification, this means that anyone with a phone and an internet connection can use the payment network. Capital can simply flow naturally through peer to peer means if needed similar to the way that cash flows into these regions. VISA is more merchant-to-consumer based transactions where Bitcoin is more peer-to-peer based transactions. There is massive potential for bitcoin to bring in billions of people to the global economy that are not a part of it today.

Fair points, but I think are overselling the problems with Visa a bit.  Bitcoin transactions are online.  You don't need need identification to use Visa for online transactions.  And you can buy a pre-paid Visa even if you don't have ID or access to the traditional banking system.

In underbanked parts of the world (and even in underbanked populations in this country) people rely heavily on cash.  You don't need an internet connection to turn cash into Visa cards.  But you do need one to turn cash into Bitcoin.  You can see the problem there.  The advantage I see for Bitcoin is lower transaction costs. 

A disadvantage I haven't seen anyone bring up is the difficult of pricing contracts (wages for example) in Bitcoin because no one knows what the future value of Bitcoin will be.  It is easy enough to set the price in dollars, to be paid in Bitcoin.  But that adds an extra step in each transaction.  And of course eventually you have to exchange the Bitcoin for cash, which again is another step.



lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #102 on: November 28, 2017, 10:02:41 AM »
Fair points, but I think are overselling the problems with Visa a bit.  Bitcoin transactions are online.  You don't need need identification to use Visa for online transactions.  And you can buy a pre-paid Visa even if you don't have ID or access to the traditional banking system.

In underbanked parts of the world (and even in underbanked populations in this country) people rely heavily on cash.  You don't need an internet connection to turn cash into Visa cards.  But you do need one to turn cash into Bitcoin.  You can see the problem there.  The advantage I see for Bitcoin is lower transaction costs. 

A disadvantage I haven't seen anyone bring up is the difficult of pricing contracts (wages for example) in Bitcoin because no one knows what the future value of Bitcoin will be.  It is easy enough to set the price in dollars, to be paid in Bitcoin.  But that adds an extra step in each transaction.  And of course eventually you have to exchange the Bitcoin for cash, which again is another step.

No doubt prepaid VISA cards offer a valuable avenue onto the VISA payment network for those that are unbanked. The higher costs of those cards can add up though.

True, you may not necessarily need an internet connection to purchase a prepaid VISA card at a retailer if they're offered. But, again that goes back to the logistical challenges of maintaining a network of brick and mortar establishments in large vast regions where the unbanked are located and need to be served. I believe that, similar to the flow of foreign cash today, bitcoin can flow in the same manner throughout these regions to bring these people into the global economy. Bitcoin can move between individuals in the same manner that cash can. So when you mention that these societies rely heavily on cash, the transition should be rather seamless when it comes to using bitcoin. Cell phones and internet access  is much more ubiquitous than modern financial services are.

As far as pricing goes, I think that is less of a problem with Bitcoin itself and merely a problem due to the fact that it is still at a young stage with a small market size. As the market grows, this becomes less and less of a problem. Volatility will naturally decrease as the market grows. I think we're a long way from needing to worry about large numbers of people receiving wages in bitcoin though. I can definitely see bitcoin helping foreign workers receive wages when doing remote work for foreign companies, but outside those circumstances I don't see wages being received in bitcoin until mass adoption occurs. At which point, discussions like this will be pointless anyway.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #103 on: November 28, 2017, 10:19:04 AM »
What exactly are the requirements you're referring to that are necessary to access VISA services?

What exactly are the requirements you're referring to necessary to access bitcoin services?
Off the top of my head, I'm thinking:
- reliable computer
- reliable internet access
- reliable power
- translation services
- vendors and people who accept bitcoin

Which countries specifically meet the requirements for bitcoin, but not VISA?

This was less of a technical point and more of a logistical point. Bringing the "unbanked" into the global economy through traditional financial services is not very efficient from a brick and mortar perspective.

To use VISA you also need identification and proper financial services available to citizens to utilize it. This means that the citizen of a country that does not have modern financial services available to them or do not have the proper identification can not obtain a VISA account through banking services in their region. Someone who is not "banked" is not capable of utilizing the VISA payment network. VISA saying that they're in 200 countries just means that there are some merchants in those countries that accept VISA or that somewhere in that country there are financial services available through which a person could obtain an account. That doesn't mean that citizens in those countries are able to access VISA services themselves and therefore they're not able to participate in the global economy.

Because bitcoin does not require identification, this means that anyone with a phone and an internet connection can use the payment network. Capital can simply flow naturally through peer to peer means if needed similar to the way that cash flows into these regions. VISA is more merchant-to-consumer based transactions where Bitcoin is more peer-to-peer based transactions. There is massive potential for bitcoin to bring in billions of people to the global economy that are not a part of it today.

How does one get an internet connection without identification?  You're talking about an internet cafe kinda thing?  You believe that this is a safe enough scenario that people would trust their life savings to it?  I'd think that the total lack of consumer protections that Bitcoin has would play into adoption of this technology in this scenario.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #104 on: November 28, 2017, 10:45:55 AM »
How does one get an internet connection without identification?  You're talking about an internet cafe kinda thing?  You believe that this is a safe enough scenario that people would trust their life savings to it?  I'd think that the total lack of consumer protections that Bitcoin has would play into adoption of this technology in this scenario.

Well many prepaid phone services don't require identification. Also, my point about identification also has to do with whether an individual needs to provide identification to use the service. This fact alone leads to discrimination by central payment authorities where perhaps sanctions are in place or the choice of doing business in a region is not justifiable. This can be a large hurdle to getting access to modern financial services in regions where, logistically, traditional financial services are not feasible. Like I said, phones and internet access are more ubiquitous than modern financial services are.

What lack of consumer protections in particular are you speaking of? Are you referring to loss of private keys?
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-it-too-late-(bitcoin)/msg1781165/#msg1781165

Most people who are unbanked are less worried about "life savings" and more worried about being able to be a participant in the global economy. If someone who is unbanked can receive a peer-to-peer loan over the internet and paid out in bitcoin from the global economy and use those funds to stock a local shop, then that will go a long way toward bring many people out of poverty in many places around the world.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #105 on: November 28, 2017, 10:59:14 AM »
How does one get an internet connection without identification?  You're talking about an internet cafe kinda thing?  You believe that this is a safe enough scenario that people would trust their life savings to it?  I'd think that the total lack of consumer protections that Bitcoin has would play into adoption of this technology in this scenario.

Well many prepaid phone services don't require identification. Also, my point about identification also has to do with whether an individual needs to provide identification to use the service. This fact alone leads to discrimination by central payment authorities where perhaps sanctions are in place or the choice of doing business in a region is not justifiable. This can be a large hurdle to getting access to modern financial services in regions where, logistically, traditional financial services are not feasible. Like I said, phones and internet access are more ubiquitous than modern financial services are.

What lack of consumer protections in particular are you speaking of? Are you referring to loss of private keys?
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-it-too-late-(bitcoin)/msg1781165/#msg1781165

Most people who are unbanked are less worried about "life savings" and more worried about being able to be a participant in the global economy. If someone who is unbanked can receive a peer-to-peer loan over the internet and paid out in bitcoin from the global economy and use those funds to stock a local shop, then that will go a long way toward bring many people out of poverty in many places around the world.

How does one apply for a loan without providing any identification?

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #106 on: November 28, 2017, 11:17:11 AM »
How does one apply for a loan without providing any identification?

There are peer-to-peer lending services online that are pretty lax in their identification requirements. Bitbond is one that I've used. Granted, the less identification verification you give, the lower your borrower rating is and higher your interest rate is as well.

I don't want to get stuck arguing this point when the only point I was trying to make was that the barrier to entry for Bitcoin with regards to identification is much lower than the barrier to entry for other traditional financial services when it comes to identification. In fact, bitcoin has no identification barrier of entry. Contrast this however you'd like to other financial services.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 11:20:16 AM by lifeanon269 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2017, 11:50:16 AM »
How does one apply for a loan without providing any identification?

There are peer-to-peer lending services online that are pretty lax in their identification requirements. Bitbond is one that I've used. Granted, the less identification verification you give, the lower your borrower rating is and higher your interest rate is as well.

I don't want to get stuck arguing this point when the only point I was trying to make was that the barrier to entry for Bitcoin with regards to identification is much lower than the barrier to entry for other traditional financial services when it comes to identification. In fact, bitcoin has no identification barrier of entry. Contrast this however you'd like to other financial services.

I agree with you that using bitcoin doesn't require ID.  It's the same as using cash in this regard.  There doesn't appear to be any benefit to using bitcoin though . . .


Required information to borrow (from the bitbond terms of use - https://www.bitbond.com/terms_of_use):

- Credit Check (requires Name, Address, SSN and reveals credit history, previous addresses, past employers and relatives)

This doesn't sound too different from getting a loan from a bank as far as information that you've got to provide.  Except that you're charged a non-refundable fee for them to run the credit check.  This was the only example of how Bitcoin benefits people who can't access a bank because of information problems. . . and it requires all the same information you would need from a bank.  What is the benefit that we're supposed to get excited about?

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2017, 12:09:53 PM »
I agree with you that using bitcoin doesn't require ID.  It's the same as using cash in this regard.  There doesn't appear to be any benefit to using bitcoin though . . .

OK, then we're in agreement it seems.

I simply put being "global" as a benefit to bitcoin and you're nitpicking about what that actually means. You say a broad statement that there doesn't appear to be any benefit to using bitcoin when I've laid out examples of plenty.

The truth of the matter is that bitcoin's barrier to entry is the same as cash, except where cash requires physical proximity, Bitcoin does not.

Just because the services today don't take advantage of this fact, doesn't mean that the services of tomorrow won't either. I believe there will come a time where bitcoin will be able to extend monetary services beyond just personhood. This means that identity won't be required to utilize finances in the innovations we seek to implement. The implications for this are profound and it is hard to imagine what this could entail for the future simply because we have no precedent for it today. We can have millions of IoT devices all around the world that "own" their own money and pay for services and use services all on their own accord. This is only possible with a financial instrument that does not require identity. In a world where AI is aimed to take over much of our daily lives, having a currency that doesn't require personhood identification just makes sense and is a natural evolution that will support this transition.

Along these lines, another benefit that I didn't list, but should've absolutely have been listed is programmability. Bitcoin is a programmable currency and this will lead to massive amounts of innovation.

20 years ago we couldn't ever have imagined where the internet would've taken us today. The same is true when it comes to trying to determine where bitcoin will take us in the future. We lack precedent for any of this and it takes thinking outside of our current paradigm to see this.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 12:30:06 PM by lifeanon269 »

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2017, 02:05:00 PM »
This is your last chance to get in under $10k, it's going to $100k in the next 12 months at this pace.
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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #110 on: November 28, 2017, 02:10:30 PM »
This is your last chance to get in under $10k, it's going to $100k in the next 12 months at this pace.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #111 on: November 28, 2017, 03:00:21 PM »
I agree with you that using bitcoin doesn't require ID.  It's the same as using cash in this regard.  There doesn't appear to be any benefit to using bitcoin though . . .

OK, then we're in agreement it seems.



I simply put being "global" as a benefit to bitcoin and you're nitpicking about what that actually means. You say a broad statement that there doesn't appear to be any benefit to using bitcoin when I've laid out examples of plenty.

I questioned if the 'global' benefit you listed really existed, and you were unable to provide any real world example of a benefit from bitcoin's 'global' benefit.


The truth of the matter is that bitcoin's barrier to entry is the same as cash, except where cash requires physical proximity, Bitcoin does not.

Not really.  Bitcoin requires access to the internet and a computer.  Cash does not.  That is a barrier to entry that is quite different than cash.

Just because the services today don't take advantage of this fact, doesn't mean that the services of tomorrow won't either. I believe there will come a time where bitcoin will be able to extend monetary services beyond just personhood. This means that identity won't be required to utilize finances in the innovations we seek to implement. The implications for this are profound and it is hard to imagine what this could entail for the future simply because we have no precedent for it today. We can have millions of IoT devices all around the world that "own" their own money and pay for services and use services all on their own accord. This is only possible with a financial instrument that does not require identity. In a world where AI is aimed to take over much of our daily lives, having a currency that doesn't require personhood identification just makes sense and is a natural evolution that will support this transition.

Along these lines, another benefit that I didn't list, but should've absolutely have been listed is programmability. Bitcoin is a programmable currency and this will lead to massive amounts of innovation.

20 years ago we couldn't ever have imagined where the internet would've taken us today. The same is true when it comes to trying to determine where bitcoin will take us in the future. We lack precedent for any of this and it takes thinking outside of our current paradigm to see this.

I agree, that there are potential benefits.  I guess I'm getting tripped up on the part where the future is being sold to people even though none of these benefits have really materialized as of yet.  I've dealt with enough software vaporware to be leery of these types of claims.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #112 on: November 28, 2017, 06:01:23 PM »
I questioned if the 'global' benefit you listed really existed, and you were unable to provide any real world example of a benefit from bitcoin's 'global' benefit.

I gave numerous examples of how being global was a benefit that bitcoin provides directly. You may not accept those benefits as they are, but they're benefits. Some of these benefits might not be materialized because we're trying to fit bitcoin into our existing financial frameworks and regulatory structure. That doesn't mean that those benefits aren't sitting there with bitcoin waiting to be taken advantage of. You said it yourself even, bitcoin does not require identification and is permission-less to use. Therefore this is a direct benefit that bitcoin as a payment network provides. Just because there are limited seconary layer solutions on top of this to take advantage of this benefit or just because some regulatory structures in certain countries don't allow for this idea to be fully realized doesn't take that away from bitcoin.

The truth is that I can send someone anywhere in the world monetary value of any amount without requiring them to provide identification first. They'll receive it in a matter of minutes at any time of day and they can then (for the time being) use localbitcoins.com or any other peer-to-peer exchange method to then exchange that for fiat if they wish. Or they can spend it directly as bitcoin. Just because adoption and innovation has yet to catch up to the benefits that bitcoin can provide does not mean that bitcoin does not provide those benefits.

I think that is one of the biggest hurdles I see when discussing bitcoin with other people who are skeptical of its innovation. They have trouble seeing the value in something in a society that hasn't yet adopted the benefits of a technology. The same misconceptions I saw when the internet was in its infancy I see with bitcoin. People wondered why anyone would spend 15 minutes trying to boot a computer and get connected to the internet just to pull up a few webpages with sparse information on them. They couldn't image that a decade from then the internet would contain all of humanity's information and it would all be accessible at the tip of your finger in a matter of seconds.

Not really.  Bitcoin requires access to the internet and a computer.  Cash does not.  That is a barrier to entry that is quite different than cash.

Good point. From a technology point of view there is absolutely additional barriers to bitcoin when compared to cash. But those barriers are certainly a lot lower than what the modern financial services industry can offer. Also, once those barriers are met, there really isn't much else in the way that would prevent someone from participating in the global economy from within the bitcoin network. The more the world realizes that there is an ever growing market within this ecosystem, the more business will flock to set up shop "within" this network. Bitcoin's market cap is already larger than many countries and businesses that see this opportunity will be able to capitalize on this market.

I agree, that there are potential benefits.  I guess I'm getting tripped up on the part where the future is being sold to people even though none of these benefits have really materialized as of yet.  I've dealt with enough software vaporware to be leery of these types of claims.

Certainly it will take some time for many of these additional use cases to come to fruition. I don't think much of today's value is being hedged on those farout scenarios however. There is absolutely value in what the bitcoin network provides as it is today. There is a growing demand in the world for a monetary system that is decoupled from government. This alone has an immeasurable amount of value. The feature list I posted earlier are all features that are fully realized today. These are not vaporware features and they are all mostly features that people demand from their currency and payment networks. Therefore, if people demand it, then that means that the payment network itself has value. Unless people stop demanding these features or another better payment network comes along to provide these features, then bitcoin will always have value to its userbase.

1) Decentralized
2) Global
3) Permission-less (anyone, anywhere can use it)
4) Counterfeit proof
5) Peer-to-Peer
6) Fraud proof consumer protection
7) Nearly unhackable
8) Immutable
9) Extensible for use with smart contracts
10) Can't be confiscated
11) Low cost/fast transactions
12) Programmable
13) Deflationary monetary policy
14) Irreversible transactions

surfhb

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #113 on: November 28, 2017, 07:27:15 PM »
What are the opinions of the future of crypto currencies with the next serious recession and bear market?   

Has anyone here who is a miner or serious speculator actually experienced a recession or bear market?   The kind where jobs are lost and you lose half your net worth in a short period?   
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 07:30:01 PM by surfhb »

talltexan

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #114 on: November 29, 2017, 07:01:00 AM »
The--ahem--underground economy in the US increases during times of recession. I cannot see how that would be bad for crypto's.

L.A.S.

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #115 on: November 29, 2017, 07:28:59 AM »


7) Nearly unhackable


What does "nearly unhackable" mean?  Does that mean you think it is hackable? Please explain further. It is either hackable or it is not...

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #116 on: November 29, 2017, 07:49:21 AM »
6) Fraud proof consumer protection

14) Irreversible transactions

These items in your list are contradictory.

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #117 on: November 29, 2017, 09:31:50 AM »
6) Fraud proof consumer protection

14) Irreversible transactions

These items in your list are contradictory.

I already pointed that out. His answer (if I understood it correctly) was that the systemic gains of merchants / financial institutions not having to deal with chargebacks will end up being of greater value to the consumer than actual fraud protection.

I don't buy it personally though. Crypto transactions are irreversible. Which means there is no such thing as fraud protection for the consumer. That alone will prevent cryptocurrencies from ever replacing Visa.

surfhb

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #118 on: November 29, 2017, 10:52:40 AM »
6) Fraud proof consumer protection

14) Irreversible transactions

These items in your list are contradictory.

I already pointed that out. His answer (if I understood it correctly) was that the systemic gains of merchants / financial institutions not having to deal with chargebacks will end up being of greater value to the consumer than actual fraud protection.

I don't buy it personally though. Crypto transactions are irreversible. Which means there is no such thing as fraud protection for the consumer. That alone will prevent cryptocurrencies from ever replacing Visa.

If this is true and if it is also true that the person who designed bitcoin is still anonymous, its blows my mind that there are intelligent people out there who feel this is a worthy place to put your hard earned money.   Unless of course greed is involved ;)

Scortius

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2017, 11:24:37 AM »
The--ahem--underground economy in the US increases during times of recession. I cannot see how that would be bad for crypto's.

Because there is a difference in people using Bitcoin for short-term transactions and those using it for speculation. If the economy goes into a recession, you may see a huge sell-off event by investors trying to avoid getting caught up in an extreme price drop. Those using it for transactional purposes will still do so, but can simply increase the number of coins used based on current exchange rates.  Since a transactional use of Bitcoin involves both buying _and_ selling the coin over a short time period, it will have a much smaller effect on determining the exchange value as those holding coins for speculative purposes.

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2017, 11:33:12 AM »
If this is true and if it is also true that the person who designed bitcoin is still anonymous, its blows my mind that there are intelligent people out there who feel this is a worthy place to put your hard earned money.   Unless of course greed is involved ;)

Well obviously the huge speculative price surges are primarily motivated through greed. But I think the real problem is that the people all excited about it are techies who are geeking out over the cool-technology aspect of it. I think the Finance industry and governments have been pretty universally negative on cryptocurrencies, and stand aghast that people are dumping this much money into them.

But of course to some conspiracy-oriented people that's only proof that this is going to be the next big thing and "the man" is just trying to keep them down.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #121 on: November 29, 2017, 12:42:51 PM »
What are the opinions of the future of crypto currencies with the next serious recession and bear market?   

Has anyone here who is a miner or serious speculator actually experienced a recession or bear market?   The kind where jobs are lost and you lose half your net worth in a short period?   

Quote
I'm sure I'll be written off as the tired old man here. I'm 49.   

Was concerns me the most is that most of the under 35 crowd has only know an EXTREME period of market growth their entire investing lives.   Not just extreme but unprecedented!     

Twice I've seen my stash grow to unbelievable levels and lose its value in a matter of a year.   I've seen friends lose homes, jobs, spouses, etc. over these market crashes .   

Quote
Do any of you ever experienced an extended bear market?   Where you lost hundreds of thousands in equity value in a matter of months? 

If so, do you feel comfortable with things like bitcoin?     Yes?  How?

I want to hear from the 40+ crowd who have experienced these kinds of events.     

Quote
Oh man.    This is a millennial train wreck.   

Quote
Then again, I doubt most on this thread know anything about what a bear market is....too young, most of you.   ;)

surfhb, is there a reason why you feel that you're the only one to have ever experienced a bear market or recession? These are some of your quotes from this and the other crypto thread showing your attitude with a clear prejudice that others have never experienced an economic hardship.



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ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2017, 01:32:04 PM »
Coinbase service outage today due to all-time record high traffic.  Bitcoin's trading range was about $1,000 wide just today alone. The stampede is apparently gaining momentum.  Tulips, anyone?

« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 01:44:50 PM by ILikeDividends »

TheAnonOne

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #123 on: November 29, 2017, 01:48:54 PM »
Prediction- the servers go back up and the price does as well...

surfhb

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #124 on: November 29, 2017, 01:55:00 PM »
What are the opinions of the future of crypto currencies with the next serious recession and bear market?   

Has anyone here who is a miner or serious speculator actually experienced a recession or bear market?   The kind where jobs are lost and you lose half your net worth in a short period?   

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I'm sure I'll be written off as the tired old man here. I'm 49.   

Was concerns me the most is that most of the under 35 crowd has only know an EXTREME period of market growth their entire investing lives.   Not just extreme but unprecedented!     

Twice I've seen my stash grow to unbelievable levels and lose its value in a matter of a year.   I've seen friends lose homes, jobs, spouses, etc. over these market crashes .   

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Do any of you ever experienced an extended bear market?   Where you lost hundreds of thousands in equity value in a matter of months? 

If so, do you feel comfortable with things like bitcoin?     Yes?  How?

I want to hear from the 40+ crowd who have experienced these kinds of events.     

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Oh man.    This is a millennial train wreck.   

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Then again, I doubt most on this thread know anything about what a bear market is....too young, most of you.   ;)

surfhb, is there a reason why you feel that you're the only one to have ever experienced a bear market or recession? These are some of your quotes from this and the other crypto thread showing your attitude with a clear prejudice that others have never experienced an economic hardship.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would I feel that way?  Lots of people on these threads have lived through recessions.   

However, since this lastest bull market is pushing a decade in length I firmly feel most younger investors don't understand the pitfalls of speculation.     I'm still waiting from some the older crowd to throw their opinion into the ring.   

I'm trying to warn people of these kind of things...that's all.   I'll wont post anymore about this.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 02:00:32 PM by surfhb »

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #125 on: November 29, 2017, 02:01:32 PM »
Prediction- the servers go back up and the price does as well...
I have no doubt that you will be proven correct.  The outage indicates the stampede is apparently still in its inflationary cycle, possibly hyper-inflationary at this point.

They'd better buy a lot more servers.  I have a feeling that when the stampede turns around, folks will be looking for the exit pretty much all at the same time.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 02:18:57 PM by ILikeDividends »

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #126 on: November 29, 2017, 02:30:00 PM »
I'm still waiting from some the older crowd to throw their opinion into the ring. 

I was in the market during the crash of '87, so I guess I qualify.

I'm trying to warn people of these kind of things...that's all.   I'll wont post anymore about this.

Your intentions are laudable, and for very young investors, very likely on-point.  Don't let one objection throw you.  I think every generation has to experience one or two crashes for themselves.  If you enlighten just one among them, then you have done your good deed for the day. ;)

Regardless of any real merits of block-chain technologies, there simply is no rational explanation for the hyper-acceleration of the cryptos' perceived value other than "it's a bubble."

When the bubble bursts, and it will, only then will we be in the hypothetical position to realize any true benefits this technology has to offer.  I mean, tulips didn't simply vanish centuries ago; there's still a market for them today.  But it's a rational market now.  The ones who sold early bought a castle.  Those who went "all in" and got caught at the top became florists, and had to work for their bread for the rest of their days.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 03:05:41 PM by ILikeDividends »

surfhb

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #127 on: November 29, 2017, 02:41:41 PM »
I'm still waiting from some the older crowd to throw their opinion into the ring. 

I was in the market during the crash of '87, so I guess I qualify.

I'm trying to warn people of these kind of things...that's all.   I'll wont post anymore about this.

Your intentions are laudable, and for very young investors, very likely on-point.  Don't let one objection throw you.  I think every generation has to experience one or two crashes for themselves.  If you enlighten just one among them, then you have done your good deed for the day. ;)

Thanks!   

Like I said,  I'm still waiting to hear from any proponents of crypto currencies  who have lived and lost any sizable amount of their stash in 2008 and the early 2000s. (and 1987 ;)   
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 02:43:26 PM by surfhb »

oldladystache

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2017, 02:57:20 PM »
I'm still waiting from some the older crowd to throw their opinion into the ring. 

I was in the market during the crash of '87, so I guess I qualify.

I'm trying to warn people of these kind of things...that's all.   I'll wont post anymore about this.

Your intentions are laudable, and for very young investors, very likely on-point.  Don't let one objection throw you.  I think every generation has to experience one or two crashes for themselves.  If you enlighten just one among them, then you have done your good deed for the day. ;)

Thanks!   

Like I said,  I'm still waiting to hear from any proponents of crypto currencies  who have lived and lost any sizable amount of their stash in 2008 and the early 2000s. (and 1987 ;)

I lost a million in 2000. And I'm playing with bitcoin but not enough to matter. My $10,000 has turned into about $40,000 and I almost got my $10,000 out this morning and let the other $30,000 ride, but the market didn't go quite high enough before the server outage. I still have my sell order in though.

I wouldn't do this with any serious money, but I'm just entertaining myself and hoping to accidentally make some real money along the way. If I couldn't afford to lose it I wouldn't do it.

surfhb

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #129 on: November 29, 2017, 03:07:01 PM »
I'm still waiting from some the older crowd to throw their opinion into the ring. 

I was in the market during the crash of '87, so I guess I qualify.

I'm trying to warn people of these kind of things...that's all.   I'll wont post anymore about this.

Your intentions are laudable, and for very young investors, very likely on-point.  Don't let one objection throw you.  I think every generation has to experience one or two crashes for themselves.  If you enlighten just one among them, then you have done your good deed for the day. ;)

Thanks!   

Like I said,  I'm still waiting to hear from any proponents of crypto currencies  who have lived and lost any sizable amount of their stash in 2008 and the early 2000s. (and 1987 ;)

I lost a million in 2000. And I'm playing with bitcoin but not enough to matter. My $10,000 has turned into about $40,000 and I almost got my $10,000 out this morning and let the other $30,000 ride, but the market didn't go quite high enough before the server outage. I still have my sell order in though.

I wouldn't do this with any serious money, but I'm just entertaining myself and hoping to accidentally make some real money along the way. If I couldn't afford to lose it I wouldn't do it.

Wow!   Losing $1 million dollars!    eek    I'm surprised anyone who lost so much would be ok with losing another 10K?   

BTW....congrats on anyone who has made a killing in bitcoin.   I hope your luck continues.   Honestly, I do


oldladystache

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #130 on: November 29, 2017, 03:21:31 PM »
Quote
Wow!   Losing $1 million dollars!    eek    I'm surprised anyone who lost so much would be ok with losing another 10K?   

Once you've lost a million, survived, and regained the million, losing 10K isn't that important.

BattlaP

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #131 on: November 29, 2017, 03:30:09 PM »
I'm so fascinated by this whole craze. It is so obviously pure FOMO psychology right now, I just can't look away. Personally I would never put my money anywhere near cryptos (even to 'explot' bubble psychology) because they are indirectly horrible in both enabling criminal activity and power consumption/pollution (the energy behind each btc transaction could power 20 US homes for a day).

I don't believe there is any evidence of any existing business (apart from criminal businesses or crypto trading platforms) gaining a competitive advantage from the application of either blockchain or cryptocurrencies. It's all talk, hot air and promises of some vague future.

Bitcoin itself is so laughably incapable of fulfilling any of its most basic promises that it's proponents all end up sounding like conmen or idiots.
anonymity - psuedonymous at best, a permanent record of all your financial activity at worst
decentralised - mining activity rapidly centralises control (major miners have 'split' into different entities to prevent concern about their >51% stake)
low fee - low fee transactions are sent to the back of the queue and are often dropped completely. fees increase when mining becomes harder
fast - often delays of multiple days and again, many transactions are ignored and dropped
limited supply aka 'there'll only ever be 21 million' - regular forks and innumerable cryptos with more appearing every day makes this a ridiculous claim
transactions per second are limited theoretically to 7 per second, in practice more like 3 per second. visa is 2,000ps on a slow day, 50,000 peak. multiple 'forks' have tried to fix or improve this basic problem and they've been defeated by juvenile reddit memelords. the promised solutions (lightning network) are vaporware, forever 6 months away

and then there's Tethers, the craziest crypto scam of them all - literally printing tens of millions of 'dollar-backed' monopoly money several times weekly with zero credible evidence that the money supposedly backing it actually exists, and then using that to buy bitcoin from another company which is owned by the same people

oh and ICOs (aka digital ponzi schemes), smart contracts (where a single bug in an immutable program can lose 300 million dollars of other peoples' money instantly and it's just another week), all bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Personally I think it needs to stop. Regulate the fuck out of these shitty, shitty scams or better yet outlaw them. If digital currencies are useful, let competent and accountable companies develop them instead of this backwater internet wild west. If blockchain is useful, prove it - turn it into competitive advantage instead of hype.

surfhb

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #132 on: November 29, 2017, 03:40:18 PM »
Quote
Wow!   Losing $1 million dollars!    eek    I'm surprised anyone who lost so much would be ok with losing another 10K?   

Once you've lost a million, survived, and regained the million, losing 10K isn't that important.

Good for you!   Unfortunately, there are millions of people right now who are not wealthy like yourself who are putting their hard earned money into things like bitcoin hoping to be FIRE.    Its these people who have much to lose if they are wrong.   

thenextguy

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #133 on: November 29, 2017, 04:26:34 PM »
If digital currencies are useful, let competent and accountable companies develop them instead of this backwater internet wild west.

You mean something like this: https://entethalliance.org/members/

phil22

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #134 on: November 29, 2017, 05:44:55 PM »
Personally I would never put my money anywhere near cryptos (even to 'explot' bubble psychology) because they are indirectly horrible in both enabling criminal activity and power consumption/pollution (the energy behind each btc transaction could power 20 US homes for a day).

cash, especially the US dollar, enables the vast majority of both everyday criminal activity and international organized crime.  are you in favor of eliminating cash?

the energy bitcoin uses is required for proof-of-work.  that's how it's secured and that's why you can't decide on a whim to create yourself some bitcoin out of thin air.  you need to pony up the $ and use some energy.  the "energy required per transaction" is a load of ignorant journalistic nonsense.  the energy required to create a block secures all past transactions, not just all transactions in the block.  it's the cumulative (10 years' running) proof-of-work that bitcoin users agree keeps their past transactions secure and permanent.

a non-proof-of-work cryptocurrency is free to come along and dethrone bitcoin (since it's a free market) and many are trying to do so.

limited supply aka 'there'll only ever be 21 million' - regular forks and innumerable cryptos with more appearing every day makes this a ridiculous claim

the 21 million coins limit is only enforced by consensus, as are all the other rules governing bitcoin.  you are free to go right ahead and make yourself a fork and pay yourself 1,000,000 BattlaPCoins.

If digital currencies are useful, let competent and accountable companies develop them instead of this backwater internet wild west.

accountable companies?  that's laughable.  so that when the currency has a backdoor or major bug we can file a class action suit?  companies like jp morgan chase, wells fargo, hsbc, equifax, yahoo, RSA security, infineon technologies, and even US government entities like the Office of Personnel Management, NSA, and CIA have all had major lapses in security and ethics.  you want them to create a digital currency?  open source currencies competing in a free market is the only way this can be done.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 05:58:07 PM by phil22 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #135 on: November 29, 2017, 06:13:01 PM »
Quote
Wow!   Losing $1 million dollars!    eek    I'm surprised anyone who lost so much would be ok with losing another 10K?   

Once you've lost a million, survived, and regained the million, losing 10K isn't that important.

Can I have 10K of your unimportant money?  It's very important to me.  :P

BattlaP

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #136 on: November 29, 2017, 07:00:44 PM »
cash, especially the US dollar, enables the vast majority of both everyday criminal activity and international organized crime.  are you in favor of eliminating cash?

false equivalence. cryptos enable criminal activity, darknet markets and rampant ransomware which would otherwise be far less prevalent. I don't particularly want to engage with you further, I've made my points and frankly you responded quite poorly to a small fraction of them.

phil22

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #137 on: November 29, 2017, 09:27:40 PM »
cash, especially the US dollar, enables the vast majority of both everyday criminal activity and international organized crime.  are you in favor of eliminating cash?

false equivalence. cryptos enable criminal activity, darknet markets and rampant ransomware which would otherwise be far less prevalent. I don't particularly want to engage with you further, I've made my points and frankly you responded quite poorly to a small fraction of them.

prepaid cash cards were used extensively to power ransomware before cryptocurrencies were.  isn't ransomware actually enabled by crappy software full of security flaws?

you came slinging mud, calling crypto proponents "conmen or idiots," and you don't care to respond when your ignorant points get shot down.  not surprising.  still entertaining to see the haters come out of the woodwork when the market gets a bit bubbly.

fwiw, i agreed with most of the rest of your points including FOMO/speculation, tethers, ICOs, buggy "smart" contracts, and the poor state of discussion/censorship on reddit.

BattlaP

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #138 on: November 29, 2017, 10:18:57 PM »
I find it strange that you would agree with most of my points but call the specific one on criminal activity 'ignorant'. Do you actually believe that ransomware could be conducted anywhere NEAR the scale it's currently being propagated based on 'prepaid cash cards'? How would darknet markets function without the promised anonymity of bitcoin/monero? (I'm leaving aside that this little white lie about bitcoin has led to successful prosecutions based on information obtained from darknet markets and bitcoin's handy complete history of all transactions. Monero might actually be better at this job for mr. criminal)

And yes, haters (like me) will come out of the woodwork at times like this, to hopefully stop people like OP losing their shirts. People get can get swept up in this sort of shit and lose their kids' college funds, their life savings. I actually think the current state of things is overblown - its just too difficult currently for most people to actual obtain crypto so they mostly end up making an account somewhere and then just giving up or making tiny 'testing the waters' purchases. Most of the current liquidity/value is probably wash trading and other forms of fraud (tether) and day trading/arbitrage transactions, with a core bunch of super savvy r/bitcoiners 'dollar cost averaging' their wages into a hyper risky speculation and posting rollercoaster memes. But still, it doesn't hurt to go and answer questions like "is it too late?" with "it's never too late to observe insanity in action. grab some popcorn"

here, enjoy the latest taste
https://twitter.com/YoloCapMgmt/status/936045815973294080/photo/1
margin trading crypto. if only someone had told him this was a terrible, terrible idea, and he had the sense to listen
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 10:25:36 PM by BattlaP »

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #139 on: November 29, 2017, 10:28:55 PM »
Do you actually believe that ransomware could be conducted anywhere NEAR the scale it's currently being propagated based on 'prepaid cash cards'?
It's called Western Union.  No Visa card required.  It's been enabling international scammers for decades.

Google "419 Eaters".

419 is the section of the Nigerian criminal code for scamming.  Nigerian Prince scam, anyone?

Bottom line: I don't believe there are any credible arguments, based on morality, against crypto currencies.  But until you can pay your tax bill with one (without first converting to USD), I will refuse to regard them as actual currencies.  Right now, it's just another bubble; nothing more or less than that.

If you can cash out in time to buy your castle, I'll applaud you.  If you can't, I'll feel your pain.  And I'll be sorry for having to do that.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 11:20:26 PM by ILikeDividends »

talltexan

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #140 on: November 30, 2017, 07:09:54 AM »
cash, especially the US dollar, enables the vast majority of both everyday criminal activity and international organized crime.  are you in favor of eliminating cash?

false equivalence. cryptos enable criminal activity, darknet markets and rampant ransomware which would otherwise be far less prevalent. I don't particularly want to engage with you further, I've made my points and frankly you responded quite poorly to a small fraction of them.

If you want an amazing economic story, read the case of India, which basically did this (the elimination of cash part). Seriously. Their "de-monetization" program began on Wednesday, Nov 9, 2016, which is probably why you weren't paying a lot of attention.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #141 on: November 30, 2017, 11:47:32 AM »
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-markets-bitcoin/bitcoin-loses-over-a-fifth-of-its-value-in-less-than-24-hours-idUSKBN1DU1Z3

IDK if this marks a characteristic fast turnover from the peak of the bubble, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Folks, if this is not your definition of bubble, you have no definition of bubble.

Man, I wish I could buy an options straddle on bitcoin. I'd be all in.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #142 on: November 30, 2017, 01:57:09 PM »
6) Fraud proof consumer protection

14) Irreversible transactions

These items in your list are contradictory.

How are these items contradictory? Care to elaborate a little on that?

I already pointed that out. His answer (if I understood it correctly) was that the systemic gains of merchants / financial institutions not having to deal with chargebacks will end up being of greater value to the consumer than actual fraud protection.

I don't buy it personally though. Crypto transactions are irreversible. Which means there is no such thing as fraud protection for the consumer. That alone will prevent cryptocurrencies from ever replacing Visa.

I guess you didn't understand then, because that wasn't my point at all and I said nothing along those lines at all (where did you even get that from?). Here is a link to my previous post where I discussed this in detail.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/is-it-too-late-(bitcoin)/msg1781165/#msg1781165

Almost the entire purpose of chargebacks are to combat fradulent transactions. Almost the entire reason we have fradulent transactions are because are POS systems are designed around giving merchants our identities and "pull" authority over the funds in our accounts. This makes every single merchant we interact with a single point of failure for massive amounts of consumer information. We then try to overlap consumer protection regulation on top of this failed system that doesn't do anything but cost more money. Case in point being the fact that Target was a PCI certified company and yet they were breached which exposed tens of millions of consumer account data and resulted in millions of dollars in damages due to fraud.

The way Bitcoin works is that payment fraud like this would completely disappear. When you make a transaction with bitcoin, the merchant doesn't receive anything. The consumer simply broadcasts a transaction to the blockchain which the merchant simply verifies was made. The merchant has no authority to pull funds and requires no identification (similar to cash) of the consumer. Therefore there is no data on the merchant side that could be compromised that would result in a loss of funds for the consumer.

Consumer refunds aren't handled any differently with bitcoin. If a consumer requires a refund from a merchant, the merchant can simply return a transaction back to the consumer for the amount that was paid. There isn't any reason for chargebacks. That's like saying we need chargebacks with cash. No you don't. If you paid for a TV in cash and you need a refund, you just get cash returned back to you.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #143 on: November 30, 2017, 02:08:01 PM »

Almost the entire purpose of chargebacks are to combat fradulent transactions.

If a consumer requires a refund from a merchant, the merchant can simply return a transaction back to the consumer for the amount that was paid.
I respectfully disagree.  Far more of the times I've done charge backs was because of a shady merchant that disagreed that I was due a refund, or tried to force me to settle for a "store credit" as some kind of consolation booby-prize to replace the perfectly spendable USD that I gave them.

If I'd had to rely on the merchant to agree, I would have been stuck paying for dead batteries, expensive software that doesn't even install, upgrades that don't upgrade, power protection units that don't even conduct electricity, etc, etc, on and on.

With a credit card, I get a very authoritative say in whether I get ripped off or not.  With crypto, I'd be at the mercy of those who care only for profits; even if at the expense of fair and above-board dealings in transactions.

Whenever I hear the words, "I'm sorry, sir, our policy is . . .," I interrupt them immediately with, "Let ME explain MY policy to YOU!  And I'm only going to explain it once, so you'd better listen up."

I can become a very unpleasant person when someone tries to rip me off.  My policy has never failed me yet.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 02:36:46 PM by ILikeDividends »

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #144 on: November 30, 2017, 02:37:15 PM »
Let me pose a couple simple questions.

-If VISA announced that they're going to begin operating in 10 new countries, would their valuation go up?
-If VISA announced that they have a new method for combating fraud on their network, would their valuation go up?
-Does VISA's valuation partly come from its assets and the capital that it owns?

Without complicating the questions any more than necessary, the answer to these questions is most certainly yes.

You see the thing with bitcoin is that everyone is so lost and caught up in the currency. But Bitcoin is a currency and a payment network.

It doesn't matter what the value of the currency is. We could value the currency at $.0001. Which, if we're talking about Satoshis, is actually about what its worth today. The media probably wouldn't be too caught up with bitcoin frenzy if its currency were valued at $.0001 and the talks about bubbles wouldn't be nearly as pronounced today. Proof to that is that bitcoin's price actually was that at one point in time and rose to dollar parity and yet bitcoin was never even on the radar for the media or anyone for that matter.

The price of the currency doesn't matter. This isn't like a physical commodity where the price of oil at $300/barrel versus $50/barrel has very real consequences in what is received for the money.

Let me make another analogy. An arcade uses token for all of the games inside. To have fun using the arcade, you must exchange your dollars for tokens and then use those tokens in the arcade games to have some fun. There is no underlying value in the token itself. However, the arcade itself does have underlying value. People go there to have fun and as a business it has real value. But, to use this business, you must use their tokens in order to play games. It doesn't matter what the exchange rate of the token is worth. That doesn't change the underlying value of what the arcade provides. The arcade decides one day, instead of exchanging 4 tokens for $1, you now only get 2 tokens for $1. You can still play the same amount of games for $1 though. So each token is worth more itself, but it still doesn't have any underlying value itself. Again, the underlying value of the arcade is still based on providing entertainment to its users.

This is Bitcoin. People who get caught up in the price of what a bitcoin is worth aren't seeing the big picture. Almost every bubble article I read on bitcoin is simply looking at the price charts of the token and comparing it to past bubbles and nothing more. They get caught up in making claims that the currency of bitcoin has no underlying value. The truth is that none of this matters.

As I mentioned previously, bitcoin is both a currency and a payment network. The currency is simply a token that is used if you wish to use this payment network. The payment network, like the arcade, is where the underlying "intrinsic" value is found. The benefits of this payment network are profound and numerous as no other payment network on earth has all of these qualities combined.

1) Decentralized
2) Global
3) Permission-less (anyone, anywhere can use it)
4) Counterfeit proof
5) Peer-to-Peer
6) Fraud proof consumer protection
7) Nearly unhackable
8) Immutable
9) Extensible for use with smart contracts
10) Can't be confiscated
11) Low cost/fast transactions
12) Programmable
13) Deflationary monetary policy
14) Irreversible transactions

VISA might have some of these benefits. SWIFT might have some of these benefits. ACH might have some of these benefits. But no traditional financial payment network has all of these features. Arguing each feature on its own compared to traditional solutions ignores the fact that bitcoin has all of these features. Some people might value some of these things and not others. For example, an immigrant might value the fact that it is both global and low cost so that they can send remittances back to family overseas. A wealthy CEO might value that it can't be confiscated and is a deflationary store of value. A web developer might value that it is programmable. A merchant might value fraud protection and no chargebacks. An activist might value that it is decentralized and permissionless. The truth is that many people will value the bitcoin payment network for different reasons and it is the combination of all these reasons that gives bitcoin its underlying value. Unless these people stop valuing these things in a payment network, then it will continue to have value.

Back to my original questions, VISA's valuation comes partly to the capital and assets that it owns. Its value also comes from the services it provides. If VISA starts operating in additional countries, the value of the company would rise because it can now reach additional customers. Likewise, bitcoin, as a payment network, has underlying value because there are over 10,000 nodes all around the world that are running this network. There is about 12 Exahash/sec worth of computing power on the network currently. That's more than about 600 of the world's top supercomputers combined. You can't separate bitcoin the currency from the bitcoin blockchain. To use the arcade, you must use their token and this is a one of a kind in the world arcade. There is no other payment network that provides all of these features (listed above) with all of the same security, decentralization, computing power, etc. Each one of the features it provides adds additional value to the network and each feature will bring in different people who value different aspects of the network.

Hopefully some people found this all helpful.

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #145 on: November 30, 2017, 02:46:37 PM »
I respectfully disagree.  Far more of the times I've done charge backs was because of a shady merchant that disagreed that I was due a refund, or tried to force me to settle for a "store credit" as some kind of consolation booby-prize to replace the perfectly spendable USD that I gave them.

If I'd had to rely on the merchant to agree, I would have been stuck paying for dead batteries, expensive software that doesn't even install, upgrades that don't upgrade, power protection units that don't even conduct electricity, etc, etc, on and on.

With a credit card, I get a very authoritative say in whether I get ripped off or not.  With crypto, I'd be at the mercy of those who care only for profits; even if at the expense of fair and above-board dealings in transactions.

Whenever I hear the words, "I'm sorry, sir, our policy is . . .," I interrupt them immediately with, "Let ME explain MY policy to YOU!  And I'm only going to explain it once, so you'd better listen up."

I can become a very unpleasant person when someone tries to rip me off.  My policy has never failed me yet.

Yes, but that's not fraud and I don't think that the payment network should be the mediator in those situations. There's nothing to say that we couldn't have regulations that prevent merchants from giving store credit where full refunds are in order (not saying that is a good idea, just an example). The payment network should provide security over the payment transaction itself, not mediation of the innumerous amount of services than any merchant can provide to a consumer. And if you don't think that you don't pay for that chargeback ability, I think you're being a little naive. Businesses account for all the lost revenue due to return policies, chargebacks, credit card fees, etc. While it might give you peace of mind to know that you can cancel a payment at any time, we'd be much better off with a system that had no merchant fees and no fraud in it to begin with. That's ultimately where real power will be returned to the consumer.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #146 on: November 30, 2017, 02:57:10 PM »
Yes, but that's not fraud and I don't think that the payment network should be the mediator in those situations.
If you truly believe that, then you have an extremely narrow definition of fraud. If a transaction doesn't deliver the promised goods or services, and the merchant wants to keep your money anyway, that absolutely is fraud.

fraud
frd/
noun
noun: fraud; plural noun: frauds

    wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

Selling me supposedly brand new batteries that don't even have a charge is at the very least wrongful deception (even if unintentional). Refusing to give me my money back when I return them, with proof of purchase, is when it crosses over into fraud.

You might disagree about where or how specific types of fraud should be protected, but I think it's pretty inarguable that VISA, etc, already provides that protection (without new regulation), while crypto does not.

Even with new regulation, where is the enforcement mechanism?  Do I have to sue in court to get my $14 back for dead batteries? Right now all I have to do is click a few links on a web-site.  Presto-bingo.  I am protected.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:16:40 PM by ILikeDividends »

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #147 on: November 30, 2017, 03:15:46 PM »
If you truly believe that, then you have an extremely narrow definition of fraud. If a transaction doesn't deliver the promised goods or services, and the merchant wants to keep your money anyway, that absolutely is fraud.

fraud
frd/
noun
noun: fraud; plural noun: frauds

    wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

Selling me supposedly brand new batteries that don't even have a charge is at least wrongful deception. Refusing to give me my money back when I return them is when it crosses over into fraud.

You might disagree about where or how certain types of fraud should be protected against, but I think it's pretty inarguable that VISA, etc, already provides that protection (without new regulation), while crypto does not.

Even with new regulation, where is the enforcement mechanism?  Do I have to sue in court to get my $14 back for dead batteries? Right now all I have to do is click a few links on a web-site.  Presto-bingo.  I am protected.

I'm not going to argue that your battery scenario doesn't constitute as fraud. But in an industry where fraud is a multi-billion dollar business unit, your battery scenario isn't in the discussion. VISA and its like are failing us miserably in this area and as an information security analyst in the financial industry, it is an issue I am faced with every day. While it is unfortunate that your battery scenario occurred, as consumers we have direct control of those types of interactions. We can simply stop doing business with those merchants and it will eventually become astutely clear that policies that don't favor their consumers will harm their business. In the face of true fraud however, we have little power when our identity and payment information is stolen. VISA does not provide us enough protection in that regard.

ILikeDividends

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #148 on: November 30, 2017, 03:24:14 PM »
I'm not going to argue that your battery scenario doesn't constitute as fraud. But in an industry where fraud is a multi-billion dollar business unit, your battery scenario isn't in the discussion. VISA and its like are failing us miserably in this area and as an information security analyst in the financial industry, it is an issue I am faced with every day. While it is unfortunate that your battery scenario occurred, as consumers we have direct control of those types of interactions. We can simply stop doing business with those merchants and it will eventually become astutely clear that policies that don't favor their consumers will harm their business. In the face of true fraud however, we have little power when our identity and payment information is stolen. VISA does not provide us enough protection in that regard.
It's not in the discussion because it isn't broken.  It works perfectly, as is.  I'm not suggesting that everything-VISA is perfect.  But your repetition of "Fraud proof consumer protection" as a crypto benefit, while omitting very salient limiting qualifiers to that, is simply untrue, no matter how many times you say it. It simply doesn't offer that. Whatever consumer protection it might provide, it is incomparable to what VISA provides.  Apples to Oranges. Or perhaps more appropriately, a whole apple (VISA) to just a wedge of an apple (crypto).

For the sake of argument, I'll concede that crypto's wedge is more robust than the corresponding wedge in VISA's apple.  But it still leave a gigantic hole, unaddressed, in the full spectrum of consumer protection.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:24:46 PM by ILikeDividends »

lifeanon269

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Re: Is it too late [bitcoin]?
« Reply #149 on: November 30, 2017, 03:52:01 PM »
It's not in the discussion because it isn't broken.  It works perfectly, as is.  I'm not suggesting that everything-VISA is perfect.  But your repetition of "Fraud proof consumer protection" as a crypto benefit, while omitting very salient limiting qualifiers to that, is simply untrue. It doesn't offer that. Whatever consumer protection it might provide, it is incomparable to what VISA provides.  Apples to Oranges. Or perhaps more appropriately, a whole apple (VISA) to just a wedge of an apple (crypto).

No, it's not in the discussion because of all the slices in the fraud pie, legitimate consumer chargebacks is the smallest slice. Unauthorized payments and account takeovers are the biggest slices in the fraud space and it costs multi-billions of dollars to both consumers and merchants. Global Risk Technologies examined chargebacks and found that 86% of chargebacks by consumers were fradulent. So not only are legitimate chargebacks a small problem, but fradulent chargebacks only make a big problem even worse. Like I said, your scenario, while unfortunate, is at least a scenario where we as consumers can protect ourselves by choosing who we do business with. Bitcoin provides consumer protection against a fraud problem that we largely don't have control over. It is a problem that is rampant and expensive and costs consumers way more than any amount of faulty or poor refund practices do annually. Your continued assertion that poor refund practices is in any way comparable to the amount of fradulent transactions that occurs in the payment industry shows a misunderstand of this area.

With bitcoin, I can do business with any reputable merchant regardless of their cyber security practices or the security of the connection between us without fear of my payment or financial account being compromised now or at any time in the future. That's true consumer protection.