Author Topic: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.  (Read 7823 times)

Leisured

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Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« on: December 16, 2019, 12:26:57 AM »
Here is a link to an intriguiging Scientific American article:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-inequality-inevitable/

There is a paywall. The article does not explain why in the transaction scenario, the winner in a transaction gets 20%* return, but the loser loses only 17%..

There is a known phenomenon in finance, that if your investments suffer a 20% fall, it will take more than a 20% rise to get back to where you were. In the transaction situation described in the article, if a player loses 17%, he will need slightly more than a 20% rise to get back to where he was.

It is also not clear to me why the economy needs to be seen as a mass of transactions.

What are your thoughts?



vand

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2019, 04:13:54 AM »
You don't engage in trade unless both sides of the trade have a positive expect outcome.

That is how trade is mutually beneficial; because the person who fishes for a living and has only fish values the marginal utility of a single chicken more than he values the marginal value of the last fish he caught.. and vice versa for the chicken farmer, so they haggle the prices and swap as much as they need until they have both maximised their total utility.

Yes, inequality is inevitable, and perhaps growing inequality is even a natural phenomenon. But they BOTH benefit on an absolute basis.

Why is growing inequality perhaps a natural tendency? Well, the fish farmer may simply be better at catching fish than the chicken farmer is at rearing chickens, and hence will have high total utility than the chicken farmer.. same as rich countries trading with less developing countries have better standards of living and will likely increase their standard of living by more than the developing country.  Same as how, in a complex modern economy the Lawyer is more capable than the McDonalds worker (in terms of the marketplace). They both benefit at an absolute level from their profession and the trade they engage in day to day, but by virtue of being more productive and more capable, the lawyer benefits relatively more which provides him with the wherewithall to continue increasing his productivity and wealth. In tomorrow's bigger economy that does more trade overall Mr McDonalds might increase his standard of living by 20%, Mr lawyer might see his standard of living increase by a far greater relative amount.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 04:16:13 AM by vand »

habanero

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2019, 04:24:42 AM »
"Poverty" in quite often defined as having an income  lower than X% of the median income in a society (this is the definition generally used in Europe, but value of X varies a bit from place to place). So it's entirely possible that you get more "poverty" despite pretty much everyone getting richer.

nancyfrank232

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Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 06:06:00 AM »
This reminded me of the Harvard Business Review article entitled, “Why do we tolerate inequality?”

“...the more unequal the society, the more moving up the income ladder contributed to someone’s overall well-being.

“Our evidence shows that as income inequality in a society rises, the happiness that can be gained from moving up the income distribution increases with it.”

https://hbr.org/2019/11/why-do-people-tolerate-income-inequality

This in turn reminded me of the comment, “you’re not stuck IN traffic, you ARE traffic”

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2019, 09:37:38 PM »
Very, very fascinating article. I did not hit a paywall.

From the article, suppose you are offered a coin-flip game where you can win $20 or lose $17:

Quote
You might construct two arguments, both rather persuasive, to help you decide what to do. You may think, “I have a probability of ½ of gaining $20 and a probability of ½ of losing $17. My expected gain is therefore:
½ x ($20) + ½ x (-$17) = $1.50
which is positive. In other words, my odds of winning and losing are even, but my gain if I win will be greater than my loss if I lose.” From this perspective it seems advantageous to play this game.

Or, like a chess player, you might think further: “What if I stay for 10 flips of the coin? A likely outcome is that five of them will come up heads and that the other five will come up tails. Each time heads comes up, my ante is multiplied by 1.2. Each time tails comes up, my ante is multiplied by 0.83. After five wins and five losses in any order, the amount of money remaining on the table will be:
1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 0.83 x 0.83 x 0.83 x 0.83 x 0.83 x $100 = $98.02
so I will have lost about $2 of my original $100 ante.” With a bit more work you can confirm that it would take about 93 wins to compensate for 91 losses. From this perspective it seems disadvantageous to play this game.

The mind-blowing part of this example is that a theoretically profitable gamble becomes a theoretically losing gamble if you take into account multiple trials and sequence of returns risk (although for some reason they don't call it that in the article). If we apply this reasoning to our daily marketplace decisions about whether we are underpaying or overpaying, we can see that the more transactions we do, the more wealth is probably leaving our hands and going to someone else.

Takeaways:

1) Reduce your number of consumer transactions if at all possible. Don't buy things or trade investments unless you absolutely must, because you are at a mathematical disadvantage with each trade, before you even account for transaction costs, taxes, or bid-ask spreads. There is some chance you have guessed the value wrong, and have created a utility-losing trade for yourself that concentrates wealth in the hands of someone else.

2) If money buys votes and influence, democracy might be unsustainable beyond a certain point on the Lorenz curve. Once one lives in an oligarchy, there is no reliable way to reverse the situation, because the oligarchs can buy more influence (and revolutions have a poor track record). Progressive taxation and an inheritance tax might be mandatory equipment for the maintenance of democracy and individual rights. Event these stalwarts are subject to influence, as we have seen for the past 40-50 years.

3) If you doubt #2, consider the effect of advertising on the bloated American lifestyle. Yes, we can be manipulated to transact against our interests. Why would we not also vote against our self interest?

4) Longer lifespans, and the inheritance of wealth essentially extend the game and increase the odds of oligarchy by increasing the number of transactions.

5) Monopoly is a strangely accurate game.

Criticisms:

1) Does the closed economic system of the computer model account for the gap between depreciation and inflation (i.e. if I buy a car for $20k, and the car depreciates $2k/year, but the cash depreciates 10% of a car per year, then my trading partner becomes relatively wealthier even though we both became poorer.)? It seems they are trading virtual currencies in the model, and nothing ever wears out. If the rich buy $50k cars and the poor buy $10k cars, depreciation would push the system back toward equality. Higher costs of living due to luxury would do the same.

2) Does the computer model account for growth of the economic pie (the force offsetting depreciation and inflation)? Is it assumed all participants contribute the same?

3) The study invents zeta as a factor to represent the increased advantages of being wealthy. But what if zeta is a curve instead of a constant? I.e. What if for some people, loss of wealth leads to increased productive effort (related to issue #2 above) and what if for some people, gain of wealth leads to retirement and a reduction in transactions? What if the curve is flat for the lazy middle class, and turns up at the ends for the industrious poor and the privileged rich?

vand

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2019, 04:49:21 AM »
Yes, you can lose even with a loaded dice on your side. That is why bet sizing and bankroll management are important, and why doings stupid stuff like employing leverage is rarely a good idea unless you also have absolutely impeccable risk management.

https://ofdollarsanddata.com/losing-with-a-winning-hand/

Also recommended viewing for the goldbugs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45NygYIj_D0

ctuser1

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2019, 10:08:31 AM »
Yes, you can lose even with a loaded dice on your side. That is why bet sizing and bankroll management are important, and why doings stupid stuff like employing leverage is rarely a good idea unless you also have absolutely impeccable risk management.

https://ofdollarsanddata.com/losing-with-a-winning-hand/

Also recommended viewing for the goldbugs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45NygYIj_D0

Huh!! I am mad that I wasted 20+ minutes on that youtube video.

The entire argument of the speaker is that financial assets suffer frequent "total loss" probability, and Gold does not!!

Presumably he has never lived in a world where ship-wrecks, lost treasures, armed robbery etc happen!!

Physical gold has MUCH higher probability of total loss. It is an asset that almost never passes through generations intact - simply because of the physical aspect of it. How many old families have you heard of WITHOUT it's own "lost treasure" story?

This is what I find so infuriating with the crank conspiracy theorists. For three fourths of the video he makes entirely reasonable points. And then suddenly springs the big bombshell that Gold, in his make-believe world, is akin to "seating in the parking lot and not playing", where it IS the most high-stakes-gambit-of-all-in-the-long-run with the highest and most frequent chance of total loss!!

They make you waste so much time before they spring such nonsense!!!



« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 10:10:44 AM by ctuser1 »

Chris Pascale

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2019, 09:35:17 PM »
I am reading a terrific book "Coming Apart" that addresses that beyond any hunter/gatherer society, there will be classes.

What is different is that it is more different now than in olden days because elites have more available to them. An example from the book cites the show "Mad Men," and how the big executive lives in a not-so-impressive house, despite making $50k in 1960.

However, in more modern times, I recall a cousin being snooty with me because I had never heard of Brie. And then it went doubly when I didn't know how to eat the shit.

vand

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2019, 03:04:02 AM »
Yes, you can lose even with a loaded dice on your side. That is why bet sizing and bankroll management are important, and why doings stupid stuff like employing leverage is rarely a good idea unless you also have absolutely impeccable risk management.

https://ofdollarsanddata.com/losing-with-a-winning-hand/

Also recommended viewing for the goldbugs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45NygYIj_D0

Huh!! I am mad that I wasted 20+ minutes on that youtube video.

The entire argument of the speaker is that financial assets suffer frequent "total loss" probability, and Gold does not!!

Presumably he has never lived in a world where ship-wrecks, lost treasures, armed robbery etc happen!!

Physical gold has MUCH higher probability of total loss. It is an asset that almost never passes through generations intact - simply because of the physical aspect of it. How many old families have you heard of WITHOUT it's own "lost treasure" story?

This is what I find so infuriating with the crank conspiracy theorists. For three fourths of the video he makes entirely reasonable points. And then suddenly springs the big bombshell that Gold, in his make-believe world, is akin to "seating in the parking lot and not playing", where it IS the most high-stakes-gambit-of-all-in-the-long-run with the highest and most frequent chance of total loss!!

They make you waste so much time before they spring such nonsense!!!

It's not about gold. The point of it is to underline that no game is worth playing all-in no matter what edge you may think you have, if the worst possible outcome of that game is total loss.

JohnnyZ

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2019, 05:53:34 AM »
From the article, suppose you are offered a coin-flip game where you can win $20 or lose $17:

Quote
You might construct two arguments, both rather persuasive, to help you decide what to do. You may think, “I have a probability of ½ of gaining $20 and a probability of ½ of losing $17. My expected gain is therefore:
½ x ($20) + ½ x (-$17) = $1.50
which is positive. In other words, my odds of winning and losing are even, but my gain if I win will be greater than my loss if I lose.” From this perspective it seems advantageous to play this game.

Or, like a chess player, you might think further: “What if I stay for 10 flips of the coin? A likely outcome is that five of them will come up heads and that the other five will come up tails. Each time heads comes up, my ante is multiplied by 1.2. Each time tails comes up, my ante is multiplied by 0.83. After five wins and five losses in any order, the amount of money remaining on the table will be:
1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 0.83 x 0.83 x 0.83 x 0.83 x 0.83 x $100 = $98.02
so I will have lost about $2 of my original $100 ante.” With a bit more work you can confirm that it would take about 93 wins to compensate for 91 losses. From this perspective it seems disadvantageous to play this game.

The mind-blowing part of this example is that a theoretically profitable gamble becomes a theoretically losing gamble if you take into account multiple trials and sequence of returns risk (although for some reason they don't call it that in the article). If we apply this reasoning to our daily marketplace decisions about whether we are underpaying or overpaying, we can see that the more transactions we do, the more wealth is probably leaving our hands and going to someone else.

That seems like strange maths to me.
 The expected return per flip is (1.2*.5+.83*.5)=1.015 which give us the stated $1.5 profit on $100. But then, to calculate over several flips: for 2 flips, 1.015^2=1.03 (a $3 gain), for 10 flips: 1.015^10=1.16 (a $16 gain). The more you play the higher your gains, which seems only logical given the profit/loss parameters.
 Am I doing something wrong?
(neither the article nor I address SOR, though)

habanero

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2019, 06:10:59 AM »
Your expected gain on a flip is 1.5% but your actual return from a flip is never 1.5%. The only 2 possible outcomes there are that you either make 20% or loose 17%.
The crucial point is that a 20% gain does not make up for a 17% loss first (0,83*1,2 = 0,996) or if you gain 20%, then loose 17% the loss is bigger than the gain as it's calculated off a higher number (1,2*0,83 = 0,996).

If you multiply numbers the order doesn't matter so in which order the results come is irrelevant. If you play 1000 times the expected result is 1,2^500 * 0.83^500 = 0,135.

If the loss was 16,67% instead of 17% you would break even in the long run. (1/1,2 = 0,833333)

Or to put it another way:
The arithmetric average is higher than one (0,83+1,2) / 2 = 1,015
The geometric average is lower than one (0,83*1,2)^0.5 = 0,998

When calculating investment returns you have to use a geometric average as the events are dependent on each other. If you invest 100 then gain 20% one year then loose 20% the other year you have arithmetric mean of 0% results while the actual balance in your account is 96. Your geometric average is (1,2*0,8)^0.5 = 0,98 and 100*0,98^2 = 96

You can't compound an arithmetric mean the way you do.


« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 06:43:40 AM by habaneroNorway »

JohnnyZ

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2019, 06:44:40 AM »
 Ok, after fiddling and testing different outcomes I can see where I've gone wrong. My maths assumed that after each flip there was a reset, you either pocket your gains or take your losses and play with $100 again. In that situation, you can expect greater gains the longer you play. But if the money stays on the table and with each flip is either increased by 20% or reduced by 17%, you indeed stand to lose more the longer you play. That is really counterintuitive, and very interesting.

habanero

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2019, 06:58:41 AM »
I wrote a small program to simulate the results and they are quite interesting as well, over 1000 simulations with 1000 flips someone typically ends up filthy rich.

A fair coin, 1000 flips per person and 1000 runs

In one run for example:
624 ended up with less money than they started with.
138 ended up with between 100 and 1.000
98 ended up with between 1.000 and 10.000
81 ended up with between 10.000 and 100.000
25 ended up with between 100.000 and 1.000.000
19 ended up with between 1.000.0000 and 10.000.000
12 between 10.000.000 and 100.000.000
 2 between 100.000.000 and 1.000.000.000
 1 billionaire with 4.122.369.266 dollars

The last result (the billionaire) is with 553 wins and 447 losses.


John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2019, 07:21:29 AM »
I am reading a terrific book "Coming Apart" that addresses that beyond any hunter/gatherer society, there will be classes.



Is that the book written  by Charles Murray?

PDXTabs

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2019, 05:35:57 PM »
You don't engage in trade unless both sides of the trade have a positive expect outcome.

I like that a bunch of smart people developed a mathematical model that matches what we can empirically measure in real life and you completely dismiss it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2019, 06:14:30 PM »
It's interesting that they're effectively proving one of the fundamental tenants of capitalism as explained by Marx - inequality is inevitable in a capitalist society.  Marx got a lot of stuff wrong in Das Kapital, but I always figured he was spot on about that.

theolympians

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2019, 06:25:21 PM »
I think of it in terms of relative inequality. In the mid-1800's when Marx was pontificating poverty meant a much worse life than it generally does now.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2019, 06:31:04 PM »
I think of it in terms of relative inequality. In the mid-1800's when Marx was pontificating poverty meant a much worse life than it generally does now.

Agreed, but that's because of the widespread adoption of socialist programs today that weren't in use in Marx's time.

ctuser1

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2019, 07:06:33 PM »
Agreed, but that's because of the widespread adoption of socialist programs today that weren't in use in Marx's time.

Innovation and market efficiency improvement has probably done more - especially if you consider people living in abject poverty.

I don't know if good data exists way back in Marx's time. In more recent decades, the poverty eradication in India, China and other poverty hotspots is primarily due to innovation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution) and market efficiency improvements (yes, sometimes price regulations *can* cause efficiency improvements if you are starting very low).

To me, it seems Socialism tends to work only when you have enough wealth to redistribute, and that too in measured doses. It tends to be a big failure in poor countries - economically speaking.  More socialism in US (e.g. single payer healthcare) would likely be a big improvement. More socialism in Africa - I am not so sure!!

nancyfrank232

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2019, 11:30:24 PM »
It's interesting that they're effectively proving one of the fundamental tenants of capitalism as explained by Marx - inequality is inevitable in a capitalist society.  Marx got a lot of stuff wrong in Das Kapital, but I always figured he was spot on about that.

Inequality is inevitable in a people society

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2019, 12:46:10 AM »
To me the mathematical models sort of remind me of the game Settlers of Catan. Putting skill aside, the game has an element of luck decided by dice throws. Over the course of a game, I'm sure your dice luck will even out since you throw the dice so many times, but it's critically important how your first few dice throws go - they dictate whether or not you start off with an advantage that in most cases is impossible to rake in (unless other players gang up on you). Even with some in-built balancing mechanisms, having a string of 2 lucky throws will just about win you the game as long as everyone plays rationally thereafter.

Anyway, I think inequality is always going to be inevitable, particularly because parent/children advantages compound. If you have four people in society, two with 105 IQs and two with 95 IQs, and they shack up, then in a few generations you're going to have massively different intellects.

mjr

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2019, 12:58:23 AM »
Peoples' abilities, skills, talent and motivation (and luck) lie on a huge spectrum and are in no way equal.  You don't need simplistic mathematical models to try and prove that any free market economy will produce inequality.

Isn't it strange how successful people usually seem to have an abundance of the traits I mention and vice versa.

vand

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2019, 02:40:35 AM »
You don't engage in trade unless both sides of the trade have a positive expect outcome.

I like that a bunch of smart people developed a mathematical model that matches what we can empirically measure in real life and you completely dismiss it.

If you are talking about the whole Keynesian macroeconomic model of "If I prefer apples to oranges, and orange to bananas, then I implicitly prefer apples to bananas..." then there is good reason to ignore it.

Leisured

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2019, 04:46:09 AM »
Thank you for your replies. The article impressed me by the idea that an economy can create oligarchs by chance. Yes, I know that there are Warren Buffets who are likely to do well anyway.

I now think that the yard sale model really applies to capital assets, not consumables like bread and milk. Thinking of capital assets, Warren Buffet is a buy and hold man, because he knows how destructive frequent stock trading can be.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2019, 02:35:24 PM »
I think part of the reason the US is becoming (or has become) an oligarchy is that there are so many seemingly good trades with positive utility that people can’t resist making these trades. This is a very separate argument than the authors discuss. The number and range of products and services available to buy has skyrocketed. People once got everything they needed from a general store the size of Family Dollar, then there were department stores with more variety, then there were WalMart Supercenters with even more variety, and now that’s not enough so we have Amazon, a store of infinite potential variety. When it became effortless (one click shopping) to buy exactly what one likes in exactly the color/taste/smell/size one likes, then it became a lot harder to resist making trades. It’s the same thing with restaurants and cars and housing all mass customized. “Perfect” purchases at “bargain” prices are all around us, and advertisers can target our tastes based on our internet activity, and put that purchase right at our fingertips, which is a lot different than things were 50 years ago.

As more and more Americans spent their money on products and services that fit their needs better and better, an economist might point out that, in theory, utility was created from the transactions. However I would note that money accumulated in relatively few hands, while manufactured crap accumulated in the closets, garages, and trash cans of people who will never be able to retire. Not to mention the wealth that was transformed into belly fat and future health problems.

While each transaction may have been utility-positive, or a bargain, the net result is a depletion of wealth as funds flow from consumers to oligarchs. It’s not the leftist narrative that the rich are out to exploit you, it’s that the rich want to give you everything you could ever want until they have all your money. Then you’ll go work to earn some more and they’ll take that too.



 

Boofinator

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2019, 03:28:57 PM »
You don't engage in trade unless both sides of the trade have a positive expect outcome.

I like that a bunch of smart people developed a mathematical model that matches what we can empirically measure in real life and you completely dismiss it.

Except that correlation does not equal causation. No different than the observation that the proportion of people that engage in piracy of the seas correlates with global warming trends.

To specifically address why this model is wrong: They applied a geometric game with practically neutral expected value to a normal distribution*. Of course there's going to be outliers, and of course the exponential function is going to make the winners look like robber barons. In an economy, however, the outliers have much less to do with luck and much more to do with value added to society, hence the success of the capitalistic system (and the utter failure of most lottery winners). And of course vand link is absolutely correct: one doesn't engage in financial transactions unless they expect some personal increase in value.

*More specifically, a Bernoulli process, but the central limit theorem gives a damn close approximation after a very limited number of trials.

ETA: I should caveat by saying there is clearly a lot of luck involved in life's fortunes, and that the modeled game has some applicability in the sense that many parts of the economy can be modeled with geometric inputs and outputs (though there are many arithmetic ones as well), though I stand by my assertion that this model is at best a tangential and minor explanation for how the economy generates inequality.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 03:54:19 PM by Boofinator »

nancyfrank232

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2019, 11:02:20 PM »
Here’s a secret: it’s all correlation

Wrenchturner

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2019, 11:51:59 PM »
I think part of the reason the US is becoming (or has become) an oligarchy is that there are so many seemingly good trades with positive utility that people can’t resist making these trades. This is a very separate argument than the authors discuss. The number and range of products and services available to buy has skyrocketed. People once got everything they needed from a general store the size of Family Dollar, then there were department stores with more variety, then there were WalMart Supercenters with even more variety, and now that’s not enough so we have Amazon, a store of infinite potential variety. When it became effortless (one click shopping) to buy exactly what one likes in exactly the color/taste/smell/size one likes, then it became a lot harder to resist making trades. It’s the same thing with restaurants and cars and housing all mass customized. “Perfect” purchases at “bargain” prices are all around us, and advertisers can target our tastes based on our internet activity, and put that purchase right at our fingertips, which is a lot different than things were 50 years ago.

As more and more Americans spent their money on products and services that fit their needs better and better, an economist might point out that, in theory, utility was created from the transactions. However I would note that money accumulated in relatively few hands, while manufactured crap accumulated in the closets, garages, and trash cans of people who will never be able to retire. Not to mention the wealth that was transformed into belly fat and future health problems.

While each transaction may have been utility-positive, or a bargain, the net result is a depletion of wealth as funds flow from consumers to oligarchs. It’s not the leftist narrative that the rich are out to exploit you, it’s that the rich want to give you everything you could ever want until they have all your money. Then you’ll go work to earn some more and they’ll take that too.

I think I'm going to have to ponder your posts in this thread for a couple weeks.  Lots to unpack there, thanks.

habanero

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2019, 01:37:37 AM »
One of the things that fascinates me the most with economics as a subject is that it is a whole field with lots of theories, fancy mathematics, curves and all, while some of the most fundamental assumptions underpinning the cathedral are so obviously wrong. Quite a few of these were pointed out in Kahneman's excellent "Thinking fast and slow", but I also have deep problems with the underlying assumption that a trade happens when both sides of the transaction have an increase in utility from the transaction, otherwise it wouldn't happen.

It should be quite obvious, in my opinion, that people enter into a large amount of transactions where one side of the deal, almost always the consumer, greatly overestimates the utility gained, or don't even really think about the utility at all. Think stuff that accumulates in closets and garages, is never used, and after a few years is tossed, gifted away or sold for a fraction of the original purchase price. Or the marginal utility gained from the 11th drink in a nightclub at 2 AM before going to bed - the next morning it becomes clear that it had a negative value and whoever bought and consumed it would be much better off without it. And so on and so on. In most business vs consumer transactions it is a fair assumption that the trade has positive utility for the seller, while it's a lot more questionable for the buyer. Most buyers are also willing to overpay for the good or service as in that the same good or service could be obtained for a lower price with minimal time and effort.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2019, 02:43:31 AM »
Well put it even more simply. All other things being equal, the smarter person is likely to win in a transaction over a dumber person. Extrapolate this over a lifetime and serious inequalities emerge. The question is why should we care or do anything about this, other than ameliorating it to the extent that there's some semblance of social harmony. Do the smart owe the dumb a living? Possibly, yes, but not a very fulsome one.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2019, 07:58:42 AM »
One of the things that fascinates me the most with economics as a subject is that it is a whole field with lots of theories, fancy mathematics, curves and all, while some of the most fundamental assumptions underpinning the cathedral are so obviously wrong. Quite a few of these were pointed out in Kahneman's excellent "Thinking fast and slow", but I also have deep problems with the underlying assumption that a trade happens when both sides of the transaction have an increase in utility from the transaction, otherwise it wouldn't happen.

It should be quite obvious, in my opinion, that people enter into a large amount of transactions where one side of the deal, almost always the consumer, greatly overestimates the utility gained, or don't even really think about the utility at all. Think stuff that accumulates in closets and garages, is never used, and after a few years is tossed, gifted away or sold for a fraction of the original purchase price. Or the marginal utility gained from the 11th drink in a nightclub at 2 AM before going to bed - the next morning it becomes clear that it had a negative value and whoever bought and consumed it would be much better off without it. And so on and so on. In most business vs consumer transactions it is a fair assumption that the trade has positive utility for the seller, while it's a lot more questionable for the buyer. Most buyers are also willing to overpay for the good or service as in that the same good or service could be obtained for a lower price with minimal time and effort.

Famed psychologist B.F. Skinner was surprised to learn that rats will press a lever more frequently and with more vigor when it dispensed a food pellet at random intervals than when it dispensed a pellet every time. It seems organisms will invest more energy in random payoffs than in sure things. The 11th drink at the bar or the 100th article of clothing from the Gap or the 1 millionth check of Facebook is similar. Perhaps the “utility” lies in the outcome of perfecting the response behavior so that the rewards become consistent and a reliable source of substance? Other psychologists have observed “superstitious” behavior in animals such as pacing back and forth or spinning around before pressing the lever, because that worked once.

 It would seem all these animals are poor utility estimators, but nature abhors waste, so these behaviors must have some sort of survival benefit. If we think about how animals must continually find new sources of food, shelter, safety, water, and mates, it could be optimal for them to be disposed to trying new, unreliable approaches rather than sitting around waiting for their currently-dependable behaviors to exhaust a certain food supply or whatever it is.

This came to mind as an addendum to your post. A disposition to make exploratory expenditures on unreliable directions may be rational if they could lead the organism to learn a new way to obtain what it wants. Of course, for humans in the modern economy, this disposition gets hacked and we are presented with hundreds of thousands of levers with unreliable payouts. Try this new product, a million marketers say.


Boofinator

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2019, 02:29:54 PM »
Well put it even more simply. All other things being equal, the smarter person is likely to win in a transaction over a dumber person. Extrapolate this over a lifetime and serious inequalities emerge. The question is why should we care or do anything about this, other than ameliorating it to the extent that there's some semblance of social harmony. Do the smart owe the dumb a living? Possibly, yes, but not a very fulsome one.

Reminds me of sports analysis. Why are some sports dominated by certain players or teams over and over, whereas other sports have a much higher level of equality? Singles tennis is an excellent example, since one sees the same champions repeat regularly, and the analysis of the sport is much easier in the sense where it is a one-on-one match with discreet points scored on each play.

Q's: 1) If a tennis player wins 2 out of 3 points in each match, how often will they lose a match? 2) What about if they win just 55% of the points, how often will they be expected to win a grand slam tournament (128-player field, with best-of-5-sets matches)?

A's: He or she is essentially guaranteed to never lose a match in their lifetime by winning 2/3 of the points each game. 2) A player who wins just 55% of points has greater than 2-to-1 odds of winning a 128-player grand slam (5 set) tournament. (See Chart 2: http://www.mathaware.org/mam/2010/essays/ParkerTennis.pdf.)

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2019, 02:38:07 AM »
Good posts, ChpBstrd Dec 20 and HabaneroNorway Dec 23.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2019, 02:48:42 AM »
One of the things that fascinates me the most with economics as a subject is that it is a whole field with lots of theories, fancy mathematics, curves and all, while some of the most fundamental assumptions underpinning the cathedral are so obviously wrong. Quite a few of these were pointed out in Kahneman's excellent "Thinking fast and slow", but I also have deep problems with the underlying assumption that a trade happens when both sides of the transaction have an increase in utility from the transaction, otherwise it wouldn't happen.

It should be quite obvious, in my opinion, that people enter into a large amount of transactions where one side of the deal, almost always the consumer, greatly overestimates the utility gained, or don't even really think about the utility at all. Think stuff that accumulates in closets and garages, is never used, and after a few years is tossed, gifted away or sold for a fraction of the original purchase price. Or the marginal utility gained from the 11th drink in a nightclub at 2 AM before going to bed - the next morning it becomes clear that it had a negative value and whoever bought and consumed it would be much better off without it. And so on and so on. In most business vs consumer transactions it is a fair assumption that the trade has positive utility for the seller, while it's a lot more questionable for the buyer. Most buyers are also willing to overpay for the good or service as in that the same good or service could be obtained for a lower price with minimal time and effort.

Famed psychologist B.F. Skinner was surprised to learn that rats will press a lever more frequently and with more vigor when it dispensed a food pellet at random intervals than when it dispensed a pellet every time. It seems organisms will invest more energy in random payoffs than in sure things. The 11th drink at the bar or the 100th article of clothing from the Gap or the 1 millionth check of Facebook is similar. Perhaps the “utility” lies in the outcome of perfecting the response behavior so that the rewards become consistent and a reliable source of substance? Other psychologists have observed “superstitious” behavior in animals such as pacing back and forth or spinning around before pressing the lever, because that worked once.

It would seem all these animals are poor utility estimators, but nature abhors waste, so these behaviors must have some sort of survival benefit. If we think about how animals must continually find new sources of food, shelter, safety, water, and mates, it could be optimal for them to be disposed to trying new, unreliable approaches rather than sitting around waiting for their currently-dependable behaviors to exhaust a certain food supply or whatever it is.

This came to mind as an addendum to your post. A disposition to make exploratory expenditures on unreliable directions may be rational if they could lead the organism to learn a new way to obtain what it wants. Of course, for humans in the modern economy, this disposition gets hacked and we are presented with hundreds of thousands of levers with unreliable payouts. Try this new product, a million marketers say.

I never thought of this before, but this makes a lot of sense now I think about it. In nature, not every try will give you something. If you're sure you'll get something if you try (think: a lion will catch the antilope every time he tries) he won't be motivated to hunt for an antilope until he gets hungry. However, nature doesn't work that way. You won't succeed with every try. Antilopes will run away. So we are motivated to try over and over again and look at predictors of what might increase or reduce your changes of success.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2019, 02:02:29 PM »



Inequality is inevitable in a people society

Agree.

I have never entertained utopic visions of a world devoid of economic inequality.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2019, 02:15:59 PM »
Peoples' abilities, skills, talent and motivation (and luck) lie on a huge spectrum and are in no way equal.  You don't need simplistic mathematical models to try and prove that any free market economy will produce inequality.

Isn't it strange how successful people usually seem to have an abundance of the traits I mention and vice versa.

"You cannot push anyone up a ladder unless he is willing to climb a little." Andrew Carnegie.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2019, 04:14:07 PM »
I think a lot of inequality discussion presupposes that we should try to balance out for people's variances in genetics and upbringing but I'm not sure why that's even a starting point. Obviously we need some form of welfare to prevent violence and rebellion and we also should, I think, try to have publicly funded education so that the opportunity remains there for anyone with talent and endeavour, but beyond that I see no moral imperative to try to balance out different people's starting points. If two responsible and smart people decide to have kids and they parent them well, then the parents and kids should accrue the benefit of their wise choices. Likewise the inverse of that.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2019, 08:36:01 PM »
I think a lot of inequality discussion presupposes that we should try to balance out for people's variances in genetics and upbringing but I'm not sure why that's even a starting point. Obviously we need some form of welfare to prevent violence and rebellion and we also should, I think, try to have publicly funded education so that the opportunity remains there for anyone with talent and endeavour, but beyond that I see no moral imperative to try to balance out different people's starting points. If two responsible and smart people decide to have kids and they parent them well, then the parents and kids should accrue the benefit of their wise choices. Likewise the inverse of that.

I think we can agree:

Had any of us been raised by parents or a parent who was indifferent as to whether we completed our homework or got good grades, we would be unlikely to end up contemplating early retirement, or enjoying much success at all in life. This would be true regardless of whether our parents were middle class or poor. A well funded public school would certainly help, and sometimes teachers take students under their wing so to speak, but if a child is not taught to value achievement there should be no expectation they will care.

The usual question is:

What do we owe our fellow citizens/humans? I think most people would agree we owe children an education, along with food/shelter/medical care, and a criminal justice system that protects their interests. There is little a government can do beyond distributing these basics, but these basics by themselves are sufficient to prevent life failure in a many if not most kids. For the rest, having the bad luck of getting particularly shitty (abusive, neglectful, authoritarian, addicted...) parents condemns them to dysfunction. They are poorly prepared for work, getting along with others, stress management, etc. What do we owe these kids, other than a warm jail cell? And we haven't even scratched the surface on disabilities.

The question beyond this question is:

Would society be healthier if we provided more/less aid to dysfunctional people? For example, if you take a minimum-wage adult who had shit parenting and provide them whatever they need to earn twice or 3x minimum wage, what would be the effects on production and demand? Would they pay back in taxes, economic growth, and reduced burden the cost of whatever service they used to increase their earnings? Obviously, if we suddenly ended all government support services, including public education, the U.S. would fall to "developing" nation living standards and dysfunction levels within a generation. We are currently somewhere between that governmental collapse scenario and the scenario of trying to provide everything our citizens need to keep growing and overcome obstacles. There is probably an optimization curve with a high point somewhere between these poles, but where?

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2019, 09:07:55 PM »
I think the premise is somewhat flawed, and you guys are seeing a dichotomy where one doesn't exactly exist. 

Wealth doesn't necessarily produce good kids, or good people for that matter.  And people that get wealthy are not necessarily good.  Yes, there is wealth inequality but wealth is not a complete proxy for success, or "goodness". 

Does an ambitious Elon Musk-type create more wellbeing for the world than a stoic Mother Theresa-type who works at a soup kitchen in New Delhi their whole life?

I think we appreciate deltas in wellbeing, and in contribution.  People borne into wealthy families have large shoes to fill, and often flounder either due to that burden or because they get into drug habits at a young age, or their parents are absentee, etc.  Some people borne into shitty families end up making themselves very successful out of a sort of inverted resentment towards their early life, or because their troubled parents are viciously supportive, etc.

We can't tell which kids have more merit than others, regardless of their family environment either. 

So at the end of the day, some people will promote an affirmative-action type system to reconcile this, and some people will say that one's track record should guide decisions, regardless of "privilege".  As long as the culture remains ambitious, I think we're headed in the right direction.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2019, 08:40:13 AM »


So at the end of the day, some people will promote an affirmative-action type system to reconcile this, and some people will say that one's track record should guide decisions, regardless of "privilege".  As long as the culture remains ambitious, I think we're headed in the right direction.



I am not supportive of jettisoning affirmative action in its entirety because I know that the world will never be free of invidious discrimination:  Affirmative action's provisions that remedy  it ought always  be kept in place.

Otherwise I advocate getting rid of affirmative action, in particular,  due to my belief that it results in an inefficient allocation of public resources.

In the interest of freedom to choose let the private sector implement affirmative action whichever way it chooses.

In the public sector the days of affirmative action are definitely numbered. The Supreme Court has said so  but  nowhere  near as bluntly as Chief Justice Roberts implied in Parents Involved in Community Schools.


Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District No. 1 (2007) 

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." Chief Justice Roberts
« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 09:10:41 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2019, 09:53:19 AM »
The usual question is:

What do we owe our fellow citizens/humans? I think most people would agree we owe children an education, along with food/shelter/medical care, and a criminal justice system that protects their interests. There is little a government can do beyond distributing these basics, but these basics by themselves are sufficient to prevent life failure in a many if not most kids. For the rest, having the bad luck of getting particularly shitty (abusive, neglectful, authoritarian, addicted...) parents condemns them to dysfunction. They are poorly prepared for work, getting along with others, stress management, etc. What do we owe these kids, other than a warm jail cell? And we haven't even scratched the surface on disabilities.

The question beyond this question is:

Would society be healthier if we provided more/less aid to dysfunctional people? For example, if you take a minimum-wage adult who had shit parenting and provide them whatever they need to earn twice or 3x minimum wage, what would be the effects on production and demand? Would they pay back in taxes, economic growth, and reduced burden the cost of whatever service they used to increase their earnings? Obviously, if we suddenly ended all government support services, including public education, the U.S. would fall to "developing" nation living standards and dysfunction levels within a generation. We are currently somewhere between that governmental collapse scenario and the scenario of trying to provide everything our citizens need to keep growing and overcome obstacles. There is probably an optimization curve with a high point somewhere between these poles, but where?

In your two paragraphs above, you imply rights versus entitlements. I agree there's a distinction, though I disagree of what you categorize as "rights".

I believe the answer to what society owes its citizens ("rights") should be extremely limited in scope, and should pertain to the natural rights: life, liberty, etc. (this includes, in my opinion, criminal justice, though not necessarily food, education, etc.). These should apply across all societies, independent of wealth, technological advancement, etc. If it can't apply to a lost tribe in the Amazon, then it isn't something society should "owe" to its citizens.

A completely different question is what should society do, given its current state, to improve outcomes through entitlements? Here we can consider health care, education, etc. These questions don't have automatic answers, so society uses government to come to a consensus, which will vary over time, and as you mention is something of an optimization function.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2019, 10:46:14 AM »


What do we owe our fellow citizens/humans?

Performance of the  social contract (social compact) is all that one citizen owes to the rest of society.

A citizen performs   the social contract by living their life and managing their affairs  so as not to impose  any burdens on the rest of society.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 12:18:58 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2019, 12:14:20 PM »



I believe the answer to what society owes its citizens ("rights") should be extremely limited in scope, and should pertain to the natural rights: life, liberty, etc.

I concur.

The Declaration of Independence informs us that "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" are "among" "certain unalienable Rights."

Rational agents always seek to maximize their satisfaction.

I think it is axiomatic that satisfaction maximization is aimed at achieving  happiness.

Widely differing satisfaction maximization evidences the fact that what constitutes happiness for  one is not happiness for another.

A will attain happiness  by  having minimal impact on the environment. They don't want a vehicle and will be  happy and content by living in a 400-foot^2 cabin in the woods.

B is happy and content with a used Tesla and renting a small apartment.

C is happy making  improvements to their rural property. They are excited and happy whenever they imagine completion of the  large house they are building.The improvements and construction of the house require a large, ICE-powered truck.

D
is as happy as could be with their  expensive, high-performance car and oceanfront condominium.

E and F
are a couple with 4 children. They are happy with their 3/2 house in a nice suburb and a large SUV for shopping, taking trips, driving the children to school, etc.

To achieve and maintain their happiness  these individuals and the couple require a hugely different  wherewithal; some need lots of money and others don't.

It follows then, that economic equality is incompatible with the  "Happiness" that is "among" "certain unalienable rights" of the Declaration of Independence.

 
« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 01:10:38 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2019, 12:16:55 PM »
Otherwise I advocate getting rid of affirmative action, in particular,  due to my belief that it results in an inefficient allocation of public resources.

I intended to make this distinction in my post but I failed to do so.  I think there is more to be said here about the distinction psychologically between private charity/"social justice" and public ones. 

I tend to dwell on the psychological interpretations because people vote and behave the way their temperament indicates.  I've found it useful to understand that people that disagree actually tend to live in, and see different worlds than the one I live in.  It's not good to presume your intellectual opponents are idiots.

ctuser1

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2019, 10:47:11 PM »
It follows then, that economic equality is incompatible with the  "Happiness" that is "among" "certain unalienable rights" of the Declaration of Independence.

Declaration of independence does not talk about any right to happiness, only "pursuit of happiness".

I read that as equality of opportunity, not outcomes.

If the pursuit of happiness was prevented, however, that would be contrary to the Declaration of Independence. Let's say A really wanted to achieve what D has, but did not even get the same opportunities as D did get handed over from his/her parents after all the estate taxes were virtually eliminated - then it could be argued THAT is against the declaration of independence.

There are many such situations where the "pursuit of happiness" is prevented. e.g. when Amazon has the clout solely due to it's size to cut special deals with cities, clout  it's smaller competitors lack - it also runs afoul of the "pursuit of happiness" clause in my opinion. All the farmer subsidies, big oil subsidies, lack of OTMR in cable - all of them and a lot more can fold into this umbrella, IMO...


« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 11:26:24 PM by ctuser1 »

joleran

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2019, 07:10:55 PM »
If total equality of outcome is inevitable, there is no point in doing anything other than exactly what strikes your fancy at any given moment.  You will get the same benefits and treatment as any other person regardless of your ability or contributions.  If you hurt yourself, you will get more benefits, if you help yourself, you will get fewer benefits.

Therefore, at least some inequality out outcome is inevitable in a functioning society.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2019, 07:29:00 AM »
If total equality of outcome is inevitable, there is no point in doing anything other than exactly what strikes your fancy at any given moment.  You will get the same benefits and treatment as any other person regardless of your ability or contributions.  If you hurt yourself, you will get more benefits, if you help yourself, you will get fewer benefits.

Therefore, at least some inequality out outcome is inevitable in a functioning society.

Agreed.  It's not desirable that things always be perfectly equitable in a capitalist society.  On some level, capitalism depends on inequality to function.

By the same token though, there comes a point where inequality is so great that there is no point in working hard.  You get the same (poor) treatment and (lack of) benefits when you work extremely hard as when you slack off.  As a peon, you are treated completely differently than a company exec.  I'd argue that there currently exist a great many jobs that already fall under this category.  I've certainly worked several.

It's also not desirable that things be extremely unequal in a capitalist society.

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2019, 12:25:06 PM »
It follows then, that economic equality is incompatible with the  "Happiness" that is "among" "certain unalienable rights" of the Declaration of Independence.

Declaration of independence does not talk about any right to happiness, only "pursuit of happiness".

I read that as equality of opportunity, not outcomes.

If the pursuit of happiness was prevented, however, that would be contrary to the Declaration of Independence. Let's say A really wanted to achieve what D has, but did not even get the same opportunities as D did get handed over from his/her parents after all the estate taxes were virtually eliminated - then it could be argued THAT is against the declaration of independence.

There are many such situations where the "pursuit of happiness" is prevented. e.g. when Amazon has the clout solely due to it's size to cut special deals with cities, clout  it's smaller competitors lack - it also runs afoul of the "pursuit of happiness" clause in my opinion. All the farmer subsidies, big oil subsidies, lack of OTMR in cable - all of them and a lot more can fold into this umbrella, IMO...

Even equality of opportunity is completely impossible to achieve, and in my opinion undesirable. Part of the human struggle is to provide better opportunities for our progeny, in order for them to achieve their optimal fitness (to put it in evolutionary terms). On the other hand, the equality that is referenced in the Declaration of Independence refers to equality under God ("Laws of Nature and Nature's God"), and to equality under the laws ("Tyrrany"). It is very clear that the founders did not intend for equality of opportunity outside this scope.

When it comes to laws governing industries or corporations, government should implement and enforce laws that maximize the benefit to society as a whole (while ensuring individual rights are not trampled). Sometimes these laws will benefit these industries or corporations, and other times they will not, but government leaders should do their best to maintain zero conflict of interest so as to ensure society benefits, not themselves.

ctuser1

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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2019, 05:34:37 PM »
It follows then, that economic equality is incompatible with the  "Happiness" that is "among" "certain unalienable rights" of the Declaration of Independence.

Declaration of independence does not talk about any right to happiness, only "pursuit of happiness".

I read that as equality of opportunity, not outcomes.

If the pursuit of happiness was prevented, however, that would be contrary to the Declaration of Independence. Let's say A really wanted to achieve what D has, but did not even get the same opportunities as D did get handed over from his/her parents after all the estate taxes were virtually eliminated - then it could be argued THAT is against the declaration of independence.

There are many such situations where the "pursuit of happiness" is prevented. e.g. when Amazon has the clout solely due to it's size to cut special deals with cities, clout  it's smaller competitors lack - it also runs afoul of the "pursuit of happiness" clause in my opinion. All the farmer subsidies, big oil subsidies, lack of OTMR in cable - all of them and a lot more can fold into this umbrella, IMO...

Even equality of opportunity is completely impossible to achieve, and in my opinion undesirable. Part of the human struggle is to provide better opportunities for our progeny, in order for them to achieve their optimal fitness (to put it in evolutionary terms). On the other hand, the equality that is referenced in the Declaration of Independence refers to equality under God ("Laws of Nature and Nature's God"), and to equality under the laws ("Tyrrany"). It is very clear that the founders did not intend for equality of opportunity outside this scope.

When it comes to laws governing industries or corporations, government should implement and enforce laws that maximize the benefit to society as a whole (while ensuring individual rights are not trampled). Sometimes these laws will benefit these industries or corporations, and other times they will not, but government leaders should do their best to maintain zero conflict of interest so as to ensure society benefits, not themselves.

At the risk of going a little off-topic, I'm tempted to put this here.

It is difficult to determine if more, or less redistribution is good. Both approaches have merit. "Tough love" and "compassionate care" are BOTH valuable in different contexts.

Perhaps the best system is something that oscillates between two well defined boundaries of "more government" and "less government"?

In the context of the United States, when I think about it, FDR and Reagan-minus-his-racist-bs (he used to think of African's as monkeys, look up the audio tape) probably represent the acceptable boundaries.

I've not really thought through it. So feel free to poke any well deserved holes as you like in it.

One likely valid objection I can think of is one that some conservatives often raise - once government programs are instituted they are impossible to get away from.


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Re: Is inequality inevitable? A Scientific American article.
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2019, 01:24:26 PM »
ChpBstrd wrote:

Quote
As more and more Americans spent their money on products and services that fit their needs better and better, an economist might point out that, in theory, utility was created from the transactions. However I would note that money accumulated in relatively few hands, while manufactured crap accumulated in the closets, garages, and trash cans of people who will never be able to retire. Not to mention the wealth that was transformed into belly fat and future health problems.

This is something I think about a lot and feel like I've noticed over the past ten to fifteen years: companies are always greasing the rails or otherwise attempting to shorten the distance between "browsing product" and "product purchased". It's so very easy now to purchase items and services online. Think about Amazon's one-click purchasing and Prime shipping (which I find particularly insidious: you pay to for the ability to use it, then feel obligated to use it as much as possible). In-game cosmetic purchases in multiplayer video games. Subscription services for clothing that keeps shipping to you, and you only pay for what you keep (I think this is counting on human laziness in that you'll probably keep more than you want), food delivery subscriptions, razor and shaving cream subscriptions, and on and on.

If the total amount per year looks too high, they'll show it as a monthly subscription. If that's too high, then it's "just pennies a day". Ok, there's nothing new going on with this exactly, but damn if there aren't a hell of a lot of ways to very easily poke more and more little holes in your bucket. A couple of them don't look like much, but one could get in over their head in a hurry and pretty sure you can't ever keep the bucket full.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!