Author Topic: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?  (Read 18132 times)

RunningintoFI

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #100 on: December 11, 2021, 02:42:07 PM »
If you've been working your ass off for the last 25 years or whatever, and investing the whole time, you have a spending problem, not an investment returns problem.

-W

This is the only thing that needed to be said imo.  Rather than worry about returns over the next 8 years, why not focus on cash outflows, which you have far more control over?

Telecaster

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #101 on: December 11, 2021, 02:51:50 PM »
I'd hazard a guess that is bandied around as a swipe at trying to pick high dividend paying stocks that have poor fundamentals and unable to sustain the dividend payout, especially in today's market where the current yield on global trackers is about 1.3%.

(I don't necessarily agree with this btw, I think it's perfectly possible to construct a high income/income portfolio, but other quality checks and a margin of safety must also be taken into account).

Probably referring to high risk bonds.  The junk bond market is on fire.  Junk bonds are yielding like 4.5% these days.  That is a long reach, for sure. 

Blender Bender

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #102 on: December 11, 2021, 03:03:56 PM »
Personally I like the idea of bonds at the end of my accumulation period and beginning of retirement to hedge against SORR (“bond tent”) and then slowly increase the stock as retirement goes one once the portfolio is presumably too big to fail.

Sounds very reasonable to me. Both are quite similar but mine is "optimistic lock" and yours "pessimistic lock", databases concepts :)

In the context of the SORR:
Optimistic means here assuming market growing (as usual), and using credit line as the backup.
Pessimistic means assuming a bad scenario upfront (buy major bonds part, losing potential market opportunities), and reverting to more stock after the longer period.

Vorpal

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2021, 03:23:11 PM »
Personally I like the idea of bonds at the end of my accumulation period and beginning of retirement to hedge against SORR (“bond tent”) and then slowly increase the stock as retirement goes one once the portfolio is presumably too big to fail.

This is where I am too, at least at the moment. It's conceivable I might switch to a Risk Parity style portfolio after I research them a bit more. Been listening to a lot of Risk Parity Radio lately.

Telecaster

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2021, 03:24:06 PM »
Do we *know* this? My crystal ball is cloudy in that regard. Also, this is where your line of reasoning goes off the rails IMO. Holding cash is good with inflation? Bonds beat that by definition. Lines of credit and margin accounts in the face of a severe market downturn? YIKES.

Last quarter the CPI increased at a 6.8% annualized rate.  Currently, the 10-year Treasury pays less than 1.5%.   Many believe that this bout of inflation we are seeing is transitory, and inflation will return to historical norms--which is 3.5%.   This summer, junk bonds went below the CPI for the first time in history.  I'm trying to wrap my brain around that. 

Anything is possible, but it is hard to look at those numbers and conclude holding bonds at today's rates will yield anything other than a net loss. 

PDXTabs

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2021, 03:30:01 PM »
Bonds (treasuries, specifically) give you something that's historically been negatively correlated with stocks to rebalance into during a downturn. A 60/40 Stock/Treasuries split can turn a -50% downturn in stocks to only a -15% or -20% downturn in your portfolio. Your stocks might be down 50%, but your treasury bonds are probably up 20-30%, so withdrawing from them is great.

Stock/Bonds correlations vary wildly over time and have a historic correlation of something like positive 5%.

An inflationary rising rate environment is also when you might expect them to be positively correlated.
I’ve heard it described that stocks are bonds are uncorrelated,  not negatively correlated. Which means sometimes they will move together and sometimes in opposite directions. I suppose 5% correlation is close to uncorrelated.

Indeed, 5% correlation is basically uncorrelated (I'm not a statistician). Which means that approximately half the times over the course of that study when stocks were falling so were bonds (but perhaps not as much). However, half the time that stocks were falling bonds were going up, which is basically the definition of why holding a more diverse portfolio is less "risky" by some definitions of "risk."

Telecaster

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2021, 03:33:01 PM »
If you've been working your ass off for the last 25 years or whatever, and investing the whole time, you have a spending problem, not an investment returns problem.

-W

This is the only thing that needed to be said imo.  Rather than worry about returns over the next 8 years, why not focus on cash outflows, which you have far more control over?

To be fair to the OP, if he is going to retire at about 35 years of working, that means his savings rate was probably around 25-30%.   That is much higher than most people.   On another board, I mentioned a 15% savings rate would make you wealthy and was roundly poo-poo'ed because such high rates are impossible, according to them.    For my part, I've always been a reasonably good saver, but it didn't really occur to me that such a thing as FIRE was possible on a normal income.   So the OP might just be a late bloomer. 

boarder42

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2021, 05:01:11 PM »
That is a bummer, but you don't hold bonds for their return. You hold them for income/stability, to hedge against sequence of returns risk (SORR for those who like acronyms), and to help you sleep well at night if volatility makes you uncomfortable. It seems to me that if bonds give a return, then great. But complaining that they don't is like complaining that your salad isn't french fries; it isn't what it is trying to be.

To be clear, I wasn't complaining that bonds have negative return, I was observing they have negative return.   Before I go further, I'm not evangelizing or providing recommendations,   I'm simply stating my observations, and people can agree or disagree with my conclusions as they like.   That said, there was some discussion of risk up above.  The definition I prefer is that "risk is the chance of permanent loss of capital."   If you buy a 10-year T-bill today, your chance of permanent loss of capital is virtually 100%.  That's extremely risky by that definition. 

Over the years, we've numerous threads about portfolio construction.  There is the classic 60/40, the Bogleheads Three Fund, Burn's Coffee House, Tyler's Golden Butterfly, Clatt's Sandwich, @boarder42 I believe is using small cap value, international and bonds, and there is also discussion about equal weight vs. cap weight index, etc.   The reasoning in each case as to how the portfolio is constructed is valid, but my point is smart people can look at the same data and come up with different conclusions.   

As I look at my own portfolio construction, because bonds have a negative rate of return holding bonds means I would be taking a guaranteed loss in exchange for possibly avoiding a larger loss.  In my position, I'm happy to forgo  that insurance aspect of bonds.  On the flip side, my MIL's finances cannot withstand a large market drawdown, so we have her money in a bond-heavy Vanguard Lifestrategy fund.  Different needs, different portfolios.

What else?  I've experienced several market crashes and slept like a baby, so bonds provide no benefit to me in that regard.  Which brings us to SORR.    If a significant fraction of your portfolio is guaranteed to lose money in the early years, doesn't that increase your SORR?   We're in uncharted waters, so we don't know but I certainly think it is prudent to consider that possibility.   

There are other ways to mitigate SORR too.  Income producing real estate, for example.  Or I can easily return to decent paid part time work.  Not everyone can or wants to do that of course, but I'm merely pointing out there are other ways to do it.  Won't work for my MIL, does work for me.

In short,  I'm not confusing fries and salad.  The issue is that salad we're all used to isn't on the menu anymore.   I think it is prudent to at least take that into consideration.

At the end of the day it's perfectly reasonable for alot of smart people to come to different conclusions about the asset allocation they plan to hold. Bc they all have different trade offs.

The most important thing is to have a written policy you follow with respect to what could allow it to change. If you look at these forums right now there are many threads that have been started ripe with recency bias and it's a very hard thing for the human mind to overcome.

waltworks

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2021, 06:46:38 PM »
To be fair to the OP, if he is going to retire at about 35 years of working, that means his savings rate was probably around 25-30%.   That is much higher than most people.   On another board, I mentioned a 15% savings rate would make you wealthy and was roundly poo-poo'ed because such high rates are impossible, according to them.    For my part, I've always been a reasonably good saver, but it didn't really occur to me that such a thing as FIRE was possible on a normal income.   So the OP might just be a late bloomer.

Assuming (using his own numbers, roughly) that he started investing in 1994 or so, the S&P has returned an annualized 11%. Of course those aren't smooth/even returns every year, but that would result in a <24 year career at 20% savings rate.  A 30% savings rate would put OP under 20 years and (s)he would have retired a while ago.

If it will truly require another 8 years at 7%, OP has been saving something between 5 and 10%, depending on what assumptions you make about investment overhead costs and timing of investments. That's maybe better than the average 'Murican, but it ain't good.

The other possibility (alone or combined with a low savings rate), of course, is that OP has been chasing returns/changing strategies/trying to beat the market this whole time, and is now doubling down on that failed strategy.

-W
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 06:56:44 PM by waltworks »

vand

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2021, 02:04:20 AM »
I'd hazard a guess that is bandied around as a swipe at trying to pick high dividend paying stocks that have poor fundamentals and unable to sustain the dividend payout, especially in today's market where the current yield on global trackers is about 1.3%.

(I don't necessarily agree with this btw, I think it's perfectly possible to construct a high income/income portfolio, but other quality checks and a margin of safety must also be taken into account).

Probably referring to high risk bonds.  The junk bond market is on fire.  Junk bonds are yielding like 4.5% these days.  That is a long reach, for sure.

It's maybe a bit stretched but the spread is nothing particularly noteworthy against other debt instruments.   You average retail investor never dips their toes into the Junk bond market, especially when there are stocks out there that are yielding 7 or 8%.

Conversely the number of retail investors who buy falling knive stocks, reasoning that "the dividend yield will provide a natural floor" is huge.

CrankAddict

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #110 on: December 12, 2021, 03:25:57 PM »
When people say "the market" they typical mean "the stock market." So stocks. As far as risk goes stocks and bonds are totally different beasts, though people put them together on the risk spectrum, albeit at opposite ends. Even blue chip stocks have significant risk compared to bonds. Certainly not as much as small cap, or emerging markets, etc. But they're still stocks and they will still take a nose dive during a recession.

When people talk about market returns they are talking about stock market returns. Whether it's an index, a mutual fund, or a single stock just depends on who is talking about what. I have never heard someone say "market return" and they were including bonds in that. So you need to account for your bond allocation when you're thinking about returns. That's why I said if the stock market has returned 7% on average, and that's an asset allocation that is 100% stocks, then you are certainly not going to match that return with a portfolio that is 1/3 bonds. The more bonds, the less overall return you'll see. Of course, you'll see less volatility too, which is why the traditional advice was 60/40 stocks/bonds for retirement age people. The volatility scares too many people after a lifetime of saving and it causes people to make bad decisions. Just ask anyone who said they lost their shirt in the 2008 recession. You didn't lose anything unless you sold at the bottom.

So when you're considering returns you have to take the amount of bonds you expect to hold into the equation.

What you say makes sense.  Perhaps the reason there wasn't (isn't?) such a black and white line in my mind is because I've never bought an actual bond.  I own bond index funds from Vanguard.  When covid started, my total index bond fund dropped notably and quickly just like my total stock index fund did.  Different percentages, sure, but both components of my portfolio certainly had a high feeling of uncertainty at that point.  In my mind, both were being affected by, and part of, "the market".  And while I do understand the definition you and others seem to be working with, surely you all have heard the term "bond market" before.  So if there is a "stock market" and a "bond market" - which are obviously two different things - it's not entirely unreasonable that simply referring to "the market" could include both of these (as well as plenty of other component markets - gold, crypto, etc).


To be fair to the OP, if he is going to retire at about 35 years of working, that means his savings rate was probably around 25-30%.   That is much higher than most people.   On another board, I mentioned a 15% savings rate would make you wealthy and was roundly poo-poo'ed because such high rates are impossible, according to them.    For my part, I've always been a reasonably good saver, but it didn't really occur to me that such a thing as FIRE was possible on a normal income.   So the OP might just be a late bloomer.

Assuming (using his own numbers, roughly) that he started investing in 1994 or so, the S&P has returned an annualized 11%. Of course those aren't smooth/even returns every year, but that would result in a <24 year career at 20% savings rate.  A 30% savings rate would put OP under 20 years and (s)he would have retired a while ago.

If it will truly require another 8 years at 7%, OP has been saving something between 5 and 10%, depending on what assumptions you make about investment overhead costs and timing of investments. That's maybe better than the average 'Murican, but it ain't good.

The other possibility (alone or combined with a low savings rate), of course, is that OP has been chasing returns/changing strategies/trying to beat the market this whole time, and is now doubling down on that failed strategy.

-W

This is a total tangent but I'm happy to fill in some blanks.  I have worked since graduating in 1998.  I've been self employed almost the entire time (until 2019).  From 1998 until about 2012 I saved around 10% and definitely spent more than I should on cars and houses.  I was also with a professional money manager who had me in random things that weren't really doing ME much good (he, on the other hand, had a Ferrari and a plane - bad signs? lol).  In 2015 I moved everything to Vanguard and started saving more.  I sold my expensive house and bought one 1/3 the size/price using the equity from the previous house (i.e. no more house payment).  And I started saving more.  I also sold my fun/expensive car and started riding my bike everywhere (i.e. no more car payments).  And I started saving more.  By 2019 my daughter graduated from college (i.e. no more school expenses).  And I started saving more.  For the last 3 years I have been able to save over 50% of my income.  As a result, my portfolio at the end of 2021 is 4x what it was in 2015.  I plan to keep up this "excessive saving" but I am behind the curve in terms of trying to make up for lost time (not being able to save enough and not having it invested wisely - both points can rightfully be considered my failings).  Over these next 8 years or so I'd like to 2.5x things again.  I think it's possible, but certainly isn't guaranteed.  Regardless, saying that I shouldn't even care about how to do this because I should already have enough money is unhelpful :)  I also frequent bread forums where we discuss delicious recipes for pizza dough.  I don't recall somebody ever chiming in with "you shouldn't be eating pizza, it's bad for you".  That may be true, but it's not what we're here to discuss!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2021, 03:35:45 PM by CrankAddict »

DaTrill

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #111 on: December 12, 2021, 03:37:54 PM »
That is a bummer, but you don't hold bonds for their return. You hold them for income/stability, to hedge against sequence of returns risk (SORR for those who like acronyms), and to help you sleep well at night if volatility makes you uncomfortable. It seems to me that if bonds give a return, then great. But complaining that they don't is like complaining that your salad isn't french fries; it isn't what it is trying to be.

To be clear, I wasn't complaining that bonds have negative return, I was observing they have negative return.   Before I go further, I'm not evangelizing or providing recommendations,   I'm simply stating my observations, and people can agree or disagree with my conclusions as they like.   That said, there was some discussion of risk up above.  The definition I prefer is that "risk is the chance of permanent loss of capital."   If you buy a 10-year T-bill today, your chance of permanent loss of capital is virtually 100%.  That's extremely risky by that definition. 

Over the years, we've numerous threads about portfolio construction.  There is the classic 60/40, the Bogleheads Three Fund, Burn's Coffee House, Tyler's Golden Butterfly, Clatt's Sandwich, @boarder42 I believe is using small cap value, international and bonds, and there is also discussion about equal weight vs. cap weight index, etc.   The reasoning in each case as to how the portfolio is constructed is valid, but my point is smart people can look at the same data and come up with different conclusions.   

As I look at my own portfolio construction, because bonds have a negative rate of return holding bonds means I would be taking a guaranteed loss in exchange for possibly avoiding a larger loss.  In my position, I'm happy to forgo  that insurance aspect of bonds.  On the flip side, my MIL's finances cannot withstand a large market drawdown, so we have her money in a bond-heavy Vanguard Lifestrategy fund.  Different needs, different portfolios.

What else?  I've experienced several market crashes and slept like a baby, so bonds provide no benefit to me in that regard.  Which brings us to SORR.    If a significant fraction of your portfolio is guaranteed to lose money in the early years, doesn't that increase your SORR?   We're in uncharted waters, so we don't know but I certainly think it is prudent to consider that possibility.   

There are other ways to mitigate SORR too.  Income producing real estate, for example.  Or I can easily return to decent paid part time work.  Not everyone can or wants to do that of course, but I'm merely pointing out there are other ways to do it.  Won't work for my MIL, does work for me.

In short,  I'm not confusing fries and salad.  The issue is that salad we're all used to isn't on the menu anymore.   I think it is prudent to at least take that into consideration.

At the end of the day it's perfectly reasonable for alot of smart people to come to different conclusions about the asset allocation they plan to hold. Bc they all have different trade offs.

The most important thing is to have a written policy you follow with respect to what could allow it to change. If you look at these forums right now there are many threads that have been started ripe with recency bias and it's a very hard thing for the human mind to overcome.

It's called a risk tolerance and must be used to find the appropriate equity percentage.  Risk tolerance changes over time and also due to investor education level.  No two people and nobody over time will remain constant.   

boarder42

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2021, 06:08:05 PM »
That is a bummer, but you don't hold bonds for their return. You hold them for income/stability, to hedge against sequence of returns risk (SORR for those who like acronyms), and to help you sleep well at night if volatility makes you uncomfortable. It seems to me that if bonds give a return, then great. But complaining that they don't is like complaining that your salad isn't french fries; it isn't what it is trying to be.

To be clear, I wasn't complaining that bonds have negative return, I was observing they have negative return.   Before I go further, I'm not evangelizing or providing recommendations,   I'm simply stating my observations, and people can agree or disagree with my conclusions as they like.   That said, there was some discussion of risk up above.  The definition I prefer is that "risk is the chance of permanent loss of capital."   If you buy a 10-year T-bill today, your chance of permanent loss of capital is virtually 100%.  That's extremely risky by that definition. 

Over the years, we've numerous threads about portfolio construction.  There is the classic 60/40, the Bogleheads Three Fund, Burn's Coffee House, Tyler's Golden Butterfly, Clatt's Sandwich, @boarder42 I believe is using small cap value, international and bonds, and there is also discussion about equal weight vs. cap weight index, etc.   The reasoning in each case as to how the portfolio is constructed is valid, but my point is smart people can look at the same data and come up with different conclusions.   

As I look at my own portfolio construction, because bonds have a negative rate of return holding bonds means I would be taking a guaranteed loss in exchange for possibly avoiding a larger loss.  In my position, I'm happy to forgo  that insurance aspect of bonds.  On the flip side, my MIL's finances cannot withstand a large market drawdown, so we have her money in a bond-heavy Vanguard Lifestrategy fund.  Different needs, different portfolios.

What else?  I've experienced several market crashes and slept like a baby, so bonds provide no benefit to me in that regard.  Which brings us to SORR.    If a significant fraction of your portfolio is guaranteed to lose money in the early years, doesn't that increase your SORR?   We're in uncharted waters, so we don't know but I certainly think it is prudent to consider that possibility.   

There are other ways to mitigate SORR too.  Income producing real estate, for example.  Or I can easily return to decent paid part time work.  Not everyone can or wants to do that of course, but I'm merely pointing out there are other ways to do it.  Won't work for my MIL, does work for me.

In short,  I'm not confusing fries and salad.  The issue is that salad we're all used to isn't on the menu anymore.   I think it is prudent to at least take that into consideration.

At the end of the day it's perfectly reasonable for alot of smart people to come to different conclusions about the asset allocation they plan to hold. Bc they all have different trade offs.

The most important thing is to have a written policy you follow with respect to what could allow it to change. If you look at these forums right now there are many threads that have been started ripe with recency bias and it's a very hard thing for the human mind to overcome.

It's called a risk tolerance and must be used to find the appropriate equity percentage.  Risk tolerance changes over time and also due to investor education level.  No two people and nobody over time will remain constant.   

Nope not what I said at all but continue to keep randomly posting like you've been here forever.

maizefolk

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2021, 07:52:21 PM »
Do we *know* this? My crystal ball is cloudy in that regard. Also, this is where your line of reasoning goes off the rails IMO. Holding cash is good with inflation? Bonds beat that by definition. Lines of credit and margin accounts in the face of a severe market downturn? YIKES.

Last quarter the CPI increased at a 6.8% annualized rate.  Currently, the 10-year Treasury pays less than 1.5%.   Many believe that this bout of inflation we are seeing is transitory, and inflation will return to historical norms--which is 3.5%.   This summer, junk bonds went below the CPI for the first time in history.  I'm trying to wrap my brain around that. 

Anything is possible, but it is hard to look at those numbers and conclude holding bonds at today's rates will yield anything other than a net loss.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but I want to highlight that the 6.8% inflation number is looking at the twelve months ending in November, not the last quarter.

In the last three months inflation has been 0.4% (September), 0.9% (October) and 0.8% (November) which works out to 2.1% inflation for the quarter, equivalent to an annualized rate of 8.7% inflation (1.021^4).

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #114 on: December 12, 2021, 08:39:22 PM »
Do we *know* this? My crystal ball is cloudy in that regard. Also, this is where your line of reasoning goes off the rails IMO. Holding cash is good with inflation? Bonds beat that by definition. Lines of credit and margin accounts in the face of a severe market downturn? YIKES.

Last quarter the CPI increased at a 6.8% annualized rate.  Currently, the 10-year Treasury pays less than 1.5%.   Many believe that this bout of inflation we are seeing is transitory, and inflation will return to historical norms--which is 3.5%.   This summer, junk bonds went below the CPI for the first time in history.  I'm trying to wrap my brain around that. 

Anything is possible, but it is hard to look at those numbers and conclude holding bonds at today's rates will yield anything other than a net loss.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but I want to highlight that the 6.8% inflation number is looking at the twelve months ending in November, not the last quarter.

In the last three months inflation has been 0.4% (September), 0.9% (October) and 0.8% (November) which works out to 2.1% inflation for the quarter, equivalent to an annualized rate of 8.7% inflation (1.021^4).

If we measure from Nov. 2019 to Nov. 2021, CPI goes from 257.989 to 278.880, an increase of 8.1% over two years or the same as roughly 4% per year.

Over the past 4 years, prices are up 12.73%, or barely over 3% per year, and that's including the supply chain issues of this summer/fall.

I just think it's informative to put things into context before people start declaring it's as bad as 1974 out there. Yet, even if we are returning to the trend line, bond investments will lose purchasing power. If inflation does go higher, it's even worse.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CPIAUCSL

BicycleB

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #115 on: December 12, 2021, 09:48:45 PM »
When covid started, my total index bond fund dropped notably and quickly just like my total stock index fund did.  Different percentages, sure, but both components of my portfolio certainly had a high feeling of uncertainty at that point.  In my mind, both were being affected by, and part of, "the market".  And while I do understand the definition you and others seem to be working with, surely you all have heard the term "bond market" before.  So if there is a "stock market" and a "bond market" - which are obviously two different things - it's not entirely unreasonable that simply referring to "the market" could include both of these


@CrankAddict, the bolded statement seems perfectly reasonable to me from a standpoint of pure logic. As someone who likes reading about financial markets, I have sometimes seen usages where people seem to mean bonds and stocks together as "the market", so there are examples of what you say. That said, often people who say "the market" do mean "the stock market" or some particular stock market, so the commenter who previously claimed that "the market" means "the stock market" has supporting examples too. I think there are more opinions about exact definititions than there is agreement. :)

Fwiw, all of your questions throughout the thread have seemed very reasonable and clear, with one questionable assumption I'll address below. To me it looks like some of the commenters misread what you wrote. I could be wrong. (Probably am, but in the meantime, much respect to you for your calm answers and persistence.) Anyway, congrats on raising your savings rate and investing focus over the  years; it sounds like you're on a very good track these days.

On your original questions, I think 7% is a trickier target than has been traditionally assumed, but fewer bonds may be a good idea. As others have said, this increases your volatility but may be to your advantage if a higher stock % builds your investments faster. You've described being confident and stable during prior crashes, so probably you can implement the higher stock % well.

A more diverse portfolio rather than just replacing BND with VTI may be helpful, at the price of being more complex. I think the idea of diversifying internationally could be helpful. It's not guaranteed of course but you might be on to something there. I have an international component - it's been weaker than US for about 20 years, it'll pay off any decade now!  :)

In case anyone hasn't mentioned timeframes enough, most investing strategies take 15 years or longer before they can reliably beat their opponents, so whether any given strategy improves returns in just 8 short years depends a lot on luck. Anyway, below are recaps and references; skip to number 8 for possible action items if you want.

Recapping key points fwiw:
1) You sort of assumed 7% is a reasonable target for annual returns and that a portfolio can be constructed to meet that goal. You got a lot of flak for that because in the 8 year timeframe you gave, stock markets vary too much to make 7% more than a maybe. Most return expectations are highly uncertain for timeframes less than 15 to 20 years. As others said in various words, if we have a bad decade for most investors, almost any portfolio could lose money in 8 years, adjusted for inflation - in which case 7% might be unachievable.
2) You are totally correct that your original question, should you change your allocation, is consequential and under your control; your decision can reasonably be expected to influence results, and can possibly be done in ways that are more likely to achieve your goals than other alternatives or even your existing allocation.
3) Bonds have low returns these days but are different from stocks. You have experienced similar behavior but they're different animals and don't always act the same. Maybe because of the low returns it's better to have fewer bonds. Still, opinions differ and both sides have (or can have) good reasons.
4) Upthread, you expressed desire to minimize complexity, and said you don't have financial reading as a hobby. Fair enough!!
5) I laughed hard at your comment about finding the person you had trouble communicating with. Again fair, though I must say in other contexts she has often been very insightful, fwiw.
6) Someone explained Sequence of Returns Risk can be thought of as applying to your earning/accumulation phase, not just your retirmement/ post-earning phase. Your purpose in the thread shows this is true. With 8 years to your approximate target, you don't want to lose money unduly. A huge long lasting stock plunge 5 years from now could block you from your target date. You have SORR.

So now what?
7) Big Ern at Early Retirement Now has a couple of thoughtful articles about SORR:

a. (article points out that when SORR hurts retirees, it helps investors who are still working; the opposite is also true)
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/05/17/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-14-sequence-of-return-risk/

b. (discussion with fairly complex math concludes that SORR is more important to safety than average rates of return are, mentions Variable Percentage Withdrawal as a possible solution but it's a bit complex https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Variable_percentage_withdrawal, discusses a couple of strategies that don't seem to directly address your question.)
https://earlyretirementnow.com/2017/05/24/the-ultimate-guide-to-safe-withdrawal-rates-part-15-sequence-of-return-risk-part2/

8) Complexity could pay off. Someone (Malcat, maybe!) mentioned complexity comes in different forms.  For example, a two fund portfolio that you rebalance quarterly might take more work than a three fund portfolio that you rebalance annually. Unfortunately, certain forms of complexity may offer an edge compared to having your bond allocation: using non-bond assets to diversify, and having diversification plus rebalancing among different sector funds within your stock allocation. Also, real estate has often been helpful in this regard and you could buy Real Estate Investment Trusts (REITs) to diversify. Some people think gold in some form is a helpful diversifier. In my opinion the best example of diversification being valuable was discussed in the thread Idiots vs Gurus: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/portfolio-design-idiots-v-gurus/

The Idiots vs Gurus takeaways:
a. Historically, picking "random" (naive, mechanical) or "Idiot" complex portfolios of the investment choices listed in portfoliocharts.com beat nearly all "Guru" or expert-designed portfolios, in the sense of protecting against SORR. These were complex portfolios with many components (like 15 or 20), each in small equal percentages rebalanced annually.
b. The investment choices in portfoliocharts.com aren't known to have any magic in them, they're just the most comprehensive list of various known plausible investment choices that the website's author could find data for. The site has definitions (and examples?) of each investment type.
c. The Idiot portfolios also often had higher average returns than the Guru portfolios.
d. The idiot portfolios were weird, in that they routinely included crazy-looking stuff like REITs and gold.
e. Despite being randomly chosen and having some weird components, the idiot portfolios mostly had 70% to 75% stocks.
f. I think part of the Idiot advantage was in having many components, while part was in having a high stock %

From these, I guess that if you want some of the idiot advantage without the full complexity, you could go with something like 50% US stock fund, 25% foreign stock, 7% BND, 6% REIT fund, 6% some gold thing (maybe GLD), 6% cash. Possibly for cash, consider I-bonds.

If you want to test examples yourself, use the My Portfolio tool on portfoliocharts.com's Charts section: https://portfoliocharts.com/charts/

PS. If you don't read the whole Big ERN article in 7b, one of his points was that if you start long enough enough before retirement, you might be safer just piling everything into stock index funds than having bonds at all. Eventually you'll be far enough ahead that when the stocks drop, you're still ok. But whether 8 years is long enough is uncertain. Given that you're not wedded to the 8 year number, just seeking reasonable results, I think choosing all stock or not choosing all stock are both pretty reasonable choices. Sorry not to give a definite answer, but from what you've said, you're not at a point where there is one solution that's indisputably better than all others. Fwiw, though, I think you'll succeed reasonably no matter choice you make - because of your good savings rate and the fact you're choosing among reasonable choices.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 09:38:31 AM by BicycleB »

CrankAddict

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #116 on: December 12, 2021, 10:57:55 PM »

@CrankAddict, the bolded statement seems perfectly reasonable to me from a standpoint of pure logic. As someone who likes reading about financial markets, I have sometimes seen usages where people seem to mean bonds and stocks together as "the market", so there are examples of what you say. That said, often people who say "the market" do mean "the stock market" or some particular stock market, so the commenter who previously claimed that "the market" means "the stock market" has supporting examples too. I think there are more opinions about exact definititions than there is agreement. :)

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed response!  I will definitely go through those articles. I was not familiar with that website but anybody named after one of the best characters from Kingpin has a curious reader in me :)  I've also got that "The Simple Path to Wealth" book another user recommended showing up this week.  So I've got some homework to do for sure!

vand

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #117 on: December 13, 2021, 03:57:08 AM »
The latest blog from Ben Carlson dissecting Vanguard's expected return ranges for the next decade makes somewhat depressing reading.
(note, these are nominal numbers - the inflation expectation range is also given at the bottom).


https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2021/12/expected-returns-over-the-next-decade/

No one has a crystal ball, of course, but these projections are not plucked out of the air, and usually modelled upon all the reasonable data that is can be meaningfully dissected.

boarder42

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #118 on: December 13, 2021, 06:19:35 AM »
The latest blog from Ben Carlson dissecting Vanguard's expected return ranges for the next decade makes somewhat depressing reading.
(note, these are nominal numbers - the inflation expectation range is also given at the bottom).


https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2021/12/expected-returns-over-the-next-decade/

No one has a crystal ball, of course, but these projections are not plucked out of the air, and usually modelled upon all the reasonable data that is can be meaningfully dissected.

feel like these charts have been similar for the last decade and its not what has happened like you said there are no crystal balls. at some point things do regress to the mean

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #119 on: December 13, 2021, 06:47:33 AM »
The latest blog from Ben Carlson dissecting Vanguard's expected return ranges for the next decade makes somewhat depressing reading.
(note, these are nominal numbers - the inflation expectation range is also given at the bottom).


https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2021/12/expected-returns-over-the-next-decade/

No one has a crystal ball, of course, but these projections are not plucked out of the air, and usually modelled upon all the reasonable data that is can be meaningfully dissected.

Reading these numbers makes me want to hire a financial advisor who can put me in a wide variety of high-ER ETFs.

Wait a minute....

maizefolk

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #120 on: December 13, 2021, 07:09:01 AM »
I don't disagree with your conclusion, but I want to highlight that the 6.8% inflation number is looking at the twelve months ending in November, not the last quarter.

In the last three months inflation has been 0.4% (September), 0.9% (October) and 0.8% (November) which works out to 2.1% inflation for the quarter, equivalent to an annualized rate of 8.7% inflation (1.021^4).

If we measure from Nov. 2019 to Nov. 2021, CPI goes from 257.989 to 278.880, an increase of 8.1% over two years or the same as roughly 4% per year.

Over the past 4 years, prices are up 12.73%, or barely over 3% per year, and that's including the supply chain issues of this summer/fall.

I just think it's informative to put things into context before people start declaring it's as bad as 1974 out there. Yet, even if we are returning to the trend line, bond investments will lose purchasing power. If inflation does go higher, it's even worse.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CPIAUCSL

Isn't it inherent in the nature of anything that has started to increase that the longer back in time you look, the less steep the increase looks?

There is an argument for using longer windows (e.g. the 12 month rolling windows that get top of line billing whenever a new monthly inflation report comes out) because shorter windows pick up more noise. But the trade off is that the longer you make your windows, the further out of date the average result you are looking at is, which is bad if you want to use the information to guide decision making (personally or at a societal level). At the end of 1974, the 12 month rolling inflation number was 11%, but over the past four years prices were up only 6.1%.

Anyway, my point is that right now we have a whole range of inflation numbers from 10% (annualizing the reported 0.8% inflation over the last month: very up to date, but also very noisy) out to 6.8% (looking at a trailing 12 month window where the average datapoint is six months old, but the noise is lower).

Your point that we could extend even further back in time and also see inflation as 3% (looking at data with an average age of two years but potentially so little noise we can detect longer term trends) is a valid one and am important one in actual context of this discussion: trying to think about how inflation will influence real returns from bonds looking a decade or more out.

NorCal

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #121 on: December 13, 2021, 07:12:15 AM »
I think there's two related statements that can be true, even though they sound contradictory:

1. The market will continue to return ~7%ish over the long term
2. The market will likely not return ~7%ish from where we are today, when viewed over the next decade.

Of course, I made a similar statement on here probably five years ago, and look how wrong I was with that.  While it is impossible to predict the markets, it is possible to see that valuations are at the higher end of their historical ranges, and interest rates are at record lows.  It's very likely we'll see another "lost decade" of investment returns sometime in our lives.

The only real action item to take away from this is to just be sure there's a decent margin of error in your plans. 

waltworks

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #122 on: December 13, 2021, 07:16:48 AM »
At 50% savings rate for the last 6 years, with any sort of meaningful head start at all from the previous 18 years of work, you should be RE right now, basically.

If you have 8 years to go, you started with ZERO in 2015, because the S&P returned 17% annualized since then. A 50% savings rate that whole time should have gotten you over the finish line very, very easily.

My point here is not to just be mean, it's to reiterate that your savings behavior is responsible for your predicament, and looking to the market/"complex" strategies to get you to the finish line is the wrong mindset. Spending too much is why you're in this boat, and cutting your spending more is really the only way you'll be RE soon.

-W

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #123 on: December 13, 2021, 07:53:07 AM »
I don't disagree with your conclusion, but I want to highlight that the 6.8% inflation number is looking at the twelve months ending in November, not the last quarter.

In the last three months inflation has been 0.4% (September), 0.9% (October) and 0.8% (November) which works out to 2.1% inflation for the quarter, equivalent to an annualized rate of 8.7% inflation (1.021^4).

If we measure from Nov. 2019 to Nov. 2021, CPI goes from 257.989 to 278.880, an increase of 8.1% over two years or the same as roughly 4% per year.

Over the past 4 years, prices are up 12.73%, or barely over 3% per year, and that's including the supply chain issues of this summer/fall.

I just think it's informative to put things into context before people start declaring it's as bad as 1974 out there. Yet, even if we are returning to the trend line, bond investments will lose purchasing power. If inflation does go higher, it's even worse.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CPIAUCSL

Isn't it inherent in the nature of anything that has started to increase that the longer back in time you look, the less steep the increase looks?

There is an argument for using longer windows (e.g. the 12 month rolling windows that get top of line billing whenever a new monthly inflation report comes out) because shorter windows pick up more noise. But the trade off is that the longer you make your windows, the further out of date the average result you are looking at is, which is bad if you want to use the information to guide decision making (personally or at a societal level). At the end of 1974, the 12 month rolling inflation number was 11%, but over the past four years prices were up only 6.1%.

Anyway, my point is that right now we have a whole range of inflation numbers from 10% (annualizing the reported 0.8% inflation over the last month: very up to date, but also very noisy) out to 6.8% (looking at a trailing 12 month window where the average datapoint is six months old, but the noise is lower).

Your point that we could extend even further back in time and also see inflation as 3% (looking at data with an average age of two years but potentially so little noise we can detect longer term trends) is a valid one and am important one in actual context of this discussion: trying to think about how inflation will influence real returns from bonds looking a decade or more out.

You're absolutely right @maizefolk ; with a ruler too short all we measure is noise and false signals, but with a ruler too long we're more likely to miss the signal. What's a legitimate span of time to optimize the signal-to-noise ratio? A lot of people will say 1 year, but what exactly does the length of time it takes the earth to revolve around the sun have to do with financial signal-to-noise ratios? I certainly don't know.

And what if the optimal ruler length changes over time. This might explain why nobody is good at predicting inflation.

Between May 2009 and June 2009, CPI increased +0.89%, or 10.68% annualized in reaction to stimulus spending! That was clearly a false signal in hindsight, but it sent a lot of people scurrying into gold and TIPS for the next couple of years.

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #124 on: December 13, 2021, 08:43:32 AM »
The latest blog from Ben Carlson dissecting Vanguard's expected return ranges for the next decade makes somewhat depressing reading.
(note, these are nominal numbers - the inflation expectation range is also given at the bottom).


https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2021/12/expected-returns-over-the-next-decade/

No one has a crystal ball, of course, but these projections are not plucked out of the air, and usually modelled upon all the reasonable data that is can be meaningfully dissected.
If this at all accurate (which I give 50-50 at best) then at least one action point for OP would be to add international equities. I didn't read all the posts, but I believe they said they have 100% equities in US? It's correct then yes for last 10-15 years that has done better than international. So either that's the way it will continue... Or it's time for international to shine! Who knows!

I like to diversify, so I've taken the "exUS hit", and contributed 40-50% to international for many years. Will this increase my returns if US only give 3.6% in the future? I obvi don't know, but I guess I'm betting on it..

Blender Bender

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #125 on: December 13, 2021, 08:48:34 AM »
The latest blog from Ben Carlson dissecting Vanguard's expected return ranges for the next decade makes somewhat depressing reading.
(note, these are nominal numbers - the inflation expectation range is also given at the bottom).


https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2021/12/expected-returns-over-the-next-decade/

No one has a crystal ball, of course, but these projections are not plucked out of the air, and usually modelled upon all the reasonable data that is can be meaningfully dissected.

Reading these numbers makes me want to hire a financial advisor who can put me in a wide variety of high-ER ETFs.

Wait a minute....

Hmm, does not look good. US Growth < 0%. But what could be the growth in 5-10 years? What Cathie Wood would say about it?
Will VGT/SOXX/Amazon/Apple/Microsoft/Google be a growth? It feels to me more like a value (very healthy balance sheet). Technology/semis would be the mainstream of economy then (and even now).  I'm a bit not fully serious here, but still...

Scandium

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #126 on: December 13, 2021, 08:55:45 AM »

Reading these numbers makes me want to hire a financial advisor who can put me in a wide variety of high-ER ETFs.

Wait a minute....

Hmm, does not look good. US Growth < 0%. But what could be the growth in 5-10 years? What Cathie Wood would say about it?
Will VGT/SOXX/Amazon/Apple/Microsoft/Google be a growth? It feels to me more like a value (very healthy balance sheet). Technology/semis would be the mainstream of economy then (and even now).  I'm a bit not fully serious here, but still...

I was curious what "growth companies" means in this context. https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/vwusx/portfolio
I know they just use some simple paramters, but still funny to me that Vanguard think "growth" is Microsoft, Apple and Google. Microsoft, the poster-child for stogy, old man companies?? :D Apple who's been releasing nothing but a marginally upgraded phone for going on 8 years now? And google, so huge and unwieldy nobody knows what they do, or should do! 

Blender Bender

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #127 on: December 13, 2021, 09:17:39 AM »
I was curious what "growth companies" means in this context. https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/vwusx/portfolio
I know they just use some simple paramters, but still funny to me that Vanguard think "growth" is Microsoft, Apple and Google. Microsoft, the poster-child for stogy, old man companies?? :D Apple who's been releasing nothing but a marginally upgraded phone for going on 8 years now? And google, so huge and unwieldy nobody knows what they do, or should do!

I see future growth something like making humans "cyborgs", as an example. Integrating humans bodies with technology. Will these endup in 10y in VGT? Possibly, or there will be a separate sector? Or space driven economy. In any case, these companies likely "do not exist yet".

sonofsven

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #128 on: December 13, 2021, 09:37:12 AM »
I was curious what "growth companies" means in this context. https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/vwusx/portfolio
I know they just use some simple paramters, but still funny to me that Vanguard think "growth" is Microsoft, Apple and Google. Microsoft, the poster-child for stogy, old man companies?? :D Apple who's been releasing nothing but a marginally upgraded phone for going on 8 years now? And google, so huge and unwieldy nobody knows what they do, or should do!

I see future growth something like making humans "cyborgs", as an example. Integrating humans bodies with technology. Will these endup in 10y in VGT? Possibly, or there will be a separate sector? Or space driven economy. In any case, these companies likely "do not exist yet".

I've been waiting for this.
I would like a small button behind my temple to turn on a built in laser level and distance finder, heck let's put in an A squared plus B squared equals C squared function while we're at it,  and I would like to warm up my coffee  by placing my hand over the cup.
Hardware yes, software no.

Telecaster

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #129 on: December 13, 2021, 10:06:16 AM »
It's called a risk tolerance and must be used to find the appropriate equity percentage.  Risk tolerance changes over time and also due to investor education level.  No two people and nobody over time will remain constant.   

That's part of it, but incomplete.   For one, people have different ideas about what the word "risk" even means when it comes to investing, but more to my point, some people argue it is prudent to have a portion of your portfolio in international stocks.  Others argue that is unnecessary be large American companies like Apple and Microsoft are already international companies and you get exposure that way. 

My point is it is important to understand why your portfolio is constructed the way it is.  Jumping around trying to chase the hot strategy is probably the worst thing you can do.


Fru-Gal

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #130 on: December 13, 2021, 10:32:46 AM »
I am 15 days away from FIRE and 99% stocks (mainly VTSAX but some other funds too). My bond equivalent is my 2.75% 30-year mortgage. Came to this portfolio over the last 5-7 years reading this site, JP Collins, etc.

Telecaster

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #131 on: December 13, 2021, 10:33:26 AM »
I was curious what "growth companies" means in this context. https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/vwusx/portfolio
I know they just use some simple paramters, but still funny to me that Vanguard think "growth" is Microsoft, Apple and Google. Microsoft, the poster-child for stogy, old man companies?? :D Apple who's been releasing nothing but a marginally upgraded phone for going on 8 years now? And google, so huge and unwieldy nobody knows what they do, or should do!

Look at the revenue growth of those companies though.   It is like Google owns a printing press or something.

CrankAddict

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #132 on: December 13, 2021, 01:47:47 PM »
At 50% savings rate for the last 6 years, with any sort of meaningful head start at all from the previous 18 years of work, you should be RE right now, basically.

If you have 8 years to go, you started with ZERO in 2015, because the S&P returned 17% annualized since then. A 50% savings rate that whole time should have gotten you over the finish line very, very easily.

My point here is not to just be mean, it's to reiterate that your savings behavior is responsible for your predicament, and looking to the market/"complex" strategies to get you to the finish line is the wrong mindset. Spending too much is why you're in this boat, and cutting your spending more is really the only way you'll be RE soon.

-W

I don't think you're being "mean" but I think at this point you're just saying random things without much basis.  First, I didn't say I had been saving 50% for 6 years, 6 years was the turning point where I moved to Vanguard.  I've been saving 50% for approx 3 years.  But 50% of what?  What if I make $50k/year?  Or what if I want to spend the first 10 years of retirement riding my bike in fabulous destinations around the world?  Doesn't matter?  No matter what the input and output parameters, you're comfortable saying I would be all set if I wasn't such a reckless spender?  Do you have a 1-900 number where I can get my non-financial psychic questions answered as well?

DaTrill

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #133 on: December 13, 2021, 03:37:17 PM »
You do have a high bond allocation.   Most bonds right now have a negative real rate of return.   Keep that in mind.

Interesting.  I thought this was a fairly standard % for being less than 10 years from retirement.  What seems like a good number to you?

My personal bond allocations is currently zero.   Let me explain.  If the real rate of return on a bond is negative on the day of purchase, then you are essentially paying someone to use your money, guaranteeing a loss.  Now, any given bond might be owned by a string of people between now and its maturity date,  and some people might make money but over all the bond will lose money.   If interest rates go up, and they can't go down much farther, that makes it even worse. Bond funds are even riskier in that regard.  We're in secular period where bonds have been incredibly expensive for years now.   

Remember how much you paid for this advice.

+1.  Long duration bonds are incredibly risky today. 

waltworks

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #134 on: December 13, 2021, 03:46:54 PM »
I don't think you're being "mean" but I think at this point you're just saying random things without much basis.  First, I didn't say I had been saving 50% for 6 years, 6 years was the turning point where I moved to Vanguard.  I've been saving 50% for approx 3 years.  But 50% of what?  What if I make $50k/year?  Or what if I want to spend the first 10 years of retirement riding my bike in fabulous destinations around the world?  Doesn't matter?  No matter what the input and output parameters, you're comfortable saying I would be all set if I wasn't such a reckless spender?  Do you have a 1-900 number where I can get my non-financial psychic questions answered as well?

Just using your own numbers, you might want to post a case study, we're good at identifying waste around here. The bottom line is that you spent a ton of money and you aren't going to be able to cleverly catch up by chasing returns. Better to make your peace with that, or to reduce your expectations for retirement than to throw it all away trying to outsmart the market.

-W

CrankAddict

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #135 on: December 13, 2021, 06:00:52 PM »
I don't think you're being "mean" but I think at this point you're just saying random things without much basis.  First, I didn't say I had been saving 50% for 6 years, 6 years was the turning point where I moved to Vanguard.  I've been saving 50% for approx 3 years.  But 50% of what?  What if I make $50k/year?  Or what if I want to spend the first 10 years of retirement riding my bike in fabulous destinations around the world?  Doesn't matter?  No matter what the input and output parameters, you're comfortable saying I would be all set if I wasn't such a reckless spender?  Do you have a 1-900 number where I can get my non-financial psychic questions answered as well?

Just using your own numbers, you might want to post a case study, we're good at identifying waste around here. The bottom line is that you spent a ton of money and you aren't going to be able to cleverly catch up by chasing returns. Better to make your peace with that, or to reduce your expectations for retirement than to throw it all away trying to outsmart the market.

-W

Not sure you can call them "my numbers" when you are off by a factor of 2 on the timeline, but ok, Merry Christmas.

My updated takeaways from this thread are...

1) Bonds are a boat anchor, cut them loose
2) Diversifying into international stocks is probably a wise idea
3) Many experts are pointing to a very lackluster upcoming period
4) Many experts are regularly proven wrong so #3 is probably wrong
5) Even a broken clock is right twice a day (unless it's digital) so #3 could be correct
5) CrankAddict's forthcoming market-beating fund will likely be a flop
6) Need to stop wasting tons of money

maizefolk

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #136 on: December 13, 2021, 06:07:57 PM »
3) Many experts are pointing to a very lackluster upcoming period
4) Many experts are regularly proven wrong so #3 is probably wrong
5) Even a broken clock is right twice a day (unless it's digital) so #3 could be correct

Reminds me a bit of the scene in the princess bride of trying to figure out which cup has the poison. .... which is a pretty accurate representation of trying to forecast future investment returns come to think of it.

Metalcat

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #137 on: December 13, 2021, 06:41:06 PM »
3) Many experts are pointing to a very lackluster upcoming period
4) Many experts are regularly proven wrong so #3 is probably wrong
5) Even a broken clock is right twice a day (unless it's digital) so #3 could be correct

Reminds me a bit of the scene in the princess bride of trying to figure out which cup has the poison. .... which is a pretty accurate representation of trying to forecast future investment returns come to think of it.

Spot on, great reference.

BicycleB

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #138 on: December 13, 2021, 07:40:35 PM »


I have worked since graduating in 1998.  I've been self employed almost the entire time (until 2019).  From 1998 until about 2012 I saved around 10% and definitely spent more than I should on cars and houses.  I was also with a professional money manager who had me in random things that weren't really doing ME much good (he, on the other hand, had a Ferrari and a plane - bad signs? lol).  In 2015 I moved everything to Vanguard and started saving more.  I sold my expensive house and bought one 1/3 the size/price using the equity from the previous house (i.e. no more house payment).  And I started saving more.  I also sold my fun/expensive car and started riding my bike everywhere (i.e. no more car payments).  And I started saving more.  By 2019 my daughter graduated from college (i.e. no more school expenses).  And I started saving more.  For the last 3 years I have been able to save over 50% of my income.  As a result, my portfolio at the end of 2021 is 4x what it was in 2015.  I plan to keep up this "excessive saving" but I am behind the curve in terms of trying to make up for lost time (not being able to save enough and not having it invested wisely - both points can rightfully be considered my failings).  Over these next 8 years or so I'd like to 2.5x things again.

Fwiw, the bolded seem like the classic pattern of somebody who made a midlife correction into frugality and saving in order to establish a viable retirement. Continuing the same thing with any of the reasonable allocations will achieve the goal in a reasonable time. The only unknown is exactly how many years that is, due to unknowns like market peformance. Keep up the good work.

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #139 on: December 13, 2021, 11:26:00 PM »
1) Bonds are a boat anchor, cut them loose
I'd like to register a categorical disagreement for this one. The world's stock markets have a history of occasionally losing 90% or more. If you count on 4% annually, and can trim to 3%, would you be happy with a 100% stock portfolio if the Great Depression repeats? No. Definitely no. A 90% crash could start at any time, and even after ten good years a 90+% crash could still sink you depending on how the sequence played out. I'd recommend something instead like 10% series I savings bonds plus 10% long term treasury bonds in addition to 80% stocks or whatever because you really don't know what will happen. But 10% bonds/cash at a bare minimum. With that said, yes bonds are boat anchors, so don't keep too many, but at least if a big storm pops up you won't get blown away if you have them. All ships actually have anchors, because they are useful.

PDXTabs

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #140 on: December 14, 2021, 01:40:12 AM »
The world's stock markets have a history of occasionally losing 90% or more.

I assume that this is in reference to the 89.2% loss in the Dow during the great depression.

But that's a little bit "wrong" in the sense that there was also massive deflation at the time.

https://www.thebalance.com/stock-market-crash-of-1929-causes-effects-and-facts-3305891

CrankAddict

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #141 on: December 14, 2021, 08:24:59 AM »
1) Bonds are a boat anchor, cut them loose
I'd like to register a categorical disagreement for this one. The world's stock markets have a history of occasionally losing 90% or more. If you count on 4% annually, and can trim to 3%, would you be happy with a 100% stock portfolio if the Great Depression repeats? No. Definitely no. A 90% crash could start at any time, and even after ten good years a 90+% crash could still sink you depending on how the sequence played out. I'd recommend something instead like 10% series I savings bonds plus 10% long term treasury bonds in addition to 80% stocks or whatever because you really don't know what will happen. But 10% bonds/cash at a bare minimum. With that said, yes bonds are boat anchors, so don't keep too many, but at least if a big storm pops up you won't get blown away if you have them. All ships actually have anchors, because they are useful.

Well played on the anchor analogy!

I'm sure you guys can find fault in this too, but I had expected to have a different AA during retirement as compared to still working.  What you are describing seems very sensible when I'm actually living off the money, but in the "building" phase is it necessary?  One could make the argument that the 90% could occur a year prior to retirement, then what?  So just to pull numbers out of the air, let's say I had $1M and was 1 year out from retirement.  Therefore I planned to live off of roughly $40k/year.  And I have 20% bonds and 80% stocks.  This 90% drop occurs and now I'm at $280k (let's assume bonds stayed the same, only stocks dropped).  I don't believe that I would feel like I could still continue with my retirement plans at that point.  I'd want to keep working a few more years.  In other words, whether I had $280k or $100k, I'd still feel like it was way too risky to just quit my job and start living the good life.  So if having 20% bonds during the building phase doesn't really give me a safety net in that sense, is it still worth doing?

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #142 on: December 14, 2021, 08:32:18 AM »
So if having 20% bonds during the building phase doesn't really give me a safety net in that sense, is it still worth doing?

I posted higher up about using bonds/cash for SORR. I won't repeat that post, but the TL:dr is you want that cash/bond cushion when your timeline is fixed [say you gave notice and can't take it back] or once you are retired and have to withdraw fund to live on. If you'll just keep working if there is a big crash say 6 months out from the date you would have retired then you can roll with a high stock allocation until the last minute.

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #143 on: December 14, 2021, 09:43:51 AM »
1) Bonds are a boat anchor, cut them loose
I'd like to register a categorical disagreement for this one. The world's stock markets have a history of occasionally losing 90% or more. If you count on 4% annually, and can trim to 3%, would you be happy with a 100% stock portfolio if the Great Depression repeats? No. Definitely no. A 90% crash could start at any time, and even after ten good years a 90+% crash could still sink you depending on how the sequence played out. I'd recommend something instead like 10% series I savings bonds plus 10% long term treasury bonds in addition to 80% stocks or whatever because you really don't know what will happen. But 10% bonds/cash at a bare minimum. With that said, yes bonds are boat anchors, so don't keep too many, but at least if a big storm pops up you won't get blown away if you have them. All ships actually have anchors, because they are useful.

Well played on the anchor analogy!

I'm sure you guys can find fault in this too, but I had expected to have a different AA during retirement as compared to still working.  What you are describing seems very sensible when I'm actually living off the money, but in the "building" phase is it necessary?  One could make the argument that the 90% could occur a year prior to retirement, then what?  So just to pull numbers out of the air, let's say I had $1M and was 1 year out from retirement.  Therefore I planned to live off of roughly $40k/year.  And I have 20% bonds and 80% stocks.  This 90% drop occurs and now I'm at $280k (let's assume bonds stayed the same, only stocks dropped).  I don't believe that I would feel like I could still continue with my retirement plans at that point.  I'd want to keep working a few more years.  In other words, whether I had $280k or $100k, I'd still feel like it was way too risky to just quit my job and start living the good life.  So if having 20% bonds during the building phase doesn't really give me a safety net in that sense, is it still worth doing?

I moved from 70/30 to 50/50 two years before retirement.  I'm retiring in a couple months (age 55) at around 50/50.  I will spend down cash and bonds until I hit 60/40 and then hold 60/40.  Planning to claim SS at age 70 around $65k per year including my wife's spousal benefit.  Will keep building up my I-Bond position currently $40k until it hits a quarter mil to help with offsetting the bond fiasco.

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #144 on: December 14, 2021, 09:45:57 AM »
In this thread i downplayed bonds. But not SORR. One must have strategy to survive SORR. Bonds might be part of the solution.
I just question the typical "advise" one gets from "bankers" ie 60/40, 70/30.

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #145 on: December 14, 2021, 10:53:16 AM »
1) Bonds are a boat anchor, cut them loose
I'd like to register a categorical disagreement for this one. The world's stock markets have a history of occasionally losing 90% or more. If you count on 4% annually, and can trim to 3%, would you be happy with a 100% stock portfolio if the Great Depression repeats? No. Definitely no. A 90% crash could start at any time, and even after ten good years a 90+% crash could still sink you depending on how the sequence played out. I'd recommend something instead like 10% series I savings bonds plus 10% long term treasury bonds in addition to 80% stocks or whatever because you really don't know what will happen. But 10% bonds/cash at a bare minimum. With that said, yes bonds are boat anchors, so don't keep too many, but at least if a big storm pops up you won't get blown away if you have them. All ships actually have anchors, because they are useful.

Well played on the anchor analogy!

I'm sure you guys can find fault in this too, but I had expected to have a different AA during retirement as compared to still working.  What you are describing seems very sensible when I'm actually living off the money, but in the "building" phase is it necessary?  One could make the argument that the 90% could occur a year prior to retirement, then what?  So just to pull numbers out of the air, let's say I had $1M and was 1 year out from retirement.  Therefore I planned to live off of roughly $40k/year.  And I have 20% bonds and 80% stocks.  This 90% drop occurs and now I'm at $280k (let's assume bonds stayed the same, only stocks dropped).  I don't believe that I would feel like I could still continue with my retirement plans at that point.  I'd want to keep working a few more years.  In other words, whether I had $280k or $100k, I'd still feel like it was way too risky to just quit my job and start living the good life.  So if having 20% bonds during the building phase doesn't really give me a safety net in that sense, is it still worth doing?

If you had 1M and 800K was stocks with 200K in bonds, what could you do with a 90% crash [leaving me with 90K stocks and 200 K in bonds]?

Well, I would rebalance. That means I would first leave 80K in bonds alone to live off for 2 years. The other 120K I would invest back in stocks and wait for the inevitable rebound.  I would also get a part time job since I only live off 40K and even a 20K/year job could be immensely helpful. If there is no rebound then we ALL have a lot more to worry about than money since that means the economic apocalypse has come -> think guns and ammo at that stage.

CrankAddict

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #146 on: December 14, 2021, 11:07:48 AM »
1) Bonds are a boat anchor, cut them loose
I'd like to register a categorical disagreement for this one. The world's stock markets have a history of occasionally losing 90% or more. If you count on 4% annually, and can trim to 3%, would you be happy with a 100% stock portfolio if the Great Depression repeats? No. Definitely no. A 90% crash could start at any time, and even after ten good years a 90+% crash could still sink you depending on how the sequence played out. I'd recommend something instead like 10% series I savings bonds plus 10% long term treasury bonds in addition to 80% stocks or whatever because you really don't know what will happen. But 10% bonds/cash at a bare minimum. With that said, yes bonds are boat anchors, so don't keep too many, but at least if a big storm pops up you won't get blown away if you have them. All ships actually have anchors, because they are useful.

Well played on the anchor analogy!

I'm sure you guys can find fault in this too, but I had expected to have a different AA during retirement as compared to still working.  What you are describing seems very sensible when I'm actually living off the money, but in the "building" phase is it necessary?  One could make the argument that the 90% could occur a year prior to retirement, then what?  So just to pull numbers out of the air, let's say I had $1M and was 1 year out from retirement.  Therefore I planned to live off of roughly $40k/year.  And I have 20% bonds and 80% stocks.  This 90% drop occurs and now I'm at $280k (let's assume bonds stayed the same, only stocks dropped).  I don't believe that I would feel like I could still continue with my retirement plans at that point.  I'd want to keep working a few more years.  In other words, whether I had $280k or $100k, I'd still feel like it was way too risky to just quit my job and start living the good life.  So if having 20% bonds during the building phase doesn't really give me a safety net in that sense, is it still worth doing?

If you had 1M and 800K was stocks with 200K in bonds, what could you do with a 90% crash [leaving me with 90K stocks and 200 K in bonds]?

Well, I would rebalance. That means I would first leave 80K in bonds alone to live off for 2 years. The other 120K I would invest back in stocks and wait for the inevitable rebound.  I would also get a part time job since I only live off 40K and even a 20K/year job could be immensely helpful. If there is no rebound then we ALL have a lot more to worry about than money since that means the economic apocalypse has come -> think guns and ammo at that stage.

Yeah, the extreme scenario certainly begs the question of what should be done.  A rebalance move would be great if things rebound, but if they drop another 20% not so much.  As well, having a 2 year buffer instead of a 5 year one add anxiety - and fighting off the hordes of zombies is going to be stressful enough. 

What does the group say?  In this hypothetical scenario, would a rebalance be a Mustachian move or a market-timer move?

JGS1980

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #147 on: December 14, 2021, 11:09:07 AM »
CrankAddict, I also feel that 65/35 is a little too conservative in the current bond environment.

Normally, I think 65/35 is reasonable when bonds actually have some value and/or return. That just doesn't happen to be the case right now. Current bond rates are a byproduct of a once in a 100 year global pandemic, so all "rules" have been thrown out the window. US treasury rate were set very low to encourage liquidity and avoid the liquidity trap that caused the last recession in 2008-2009. Meanwhile, huge infusions of cheap money via quantitative easing continue to flood the US market.

Where is this cheap money going to eventually end up? With bonds have little to negative returns, most of this money will either end up in real estate (RE boom, anyone?) or the Stock Market (S&P returns in 2020 and 2021 YTD were 18.40% and 22.73%).

Basically, what I'm saying is what Paul Simon said way back in the 80's, "Who am I to blow against the wind?"

JGS

FWIW -I'm 90/10, with 20% of equities in Vanguard Total International Index, 80% of equities in VTSAX. My 10% bond allocation is in US treasuries or IBonds.  Since equities have had quite a run the last few years, any additional bond allocation past the 10% goes toward my mortgage ("negative bond").

JGS1980

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #148 on: December 14, 2021, 11:13:49 AM »
If you had 1M and 800K was stocks with 200K in bonds, what could you do with a 90% crash [leaving me with 90K stocks and 200 K in bonds]?

Well, I would rebalance. That means I would first leave 80K in bonds alone to live off for 2 years. The other 120K I would invest back in stocks and wait for the inevitable rebound.  I would also get a part time job since I only live off 40K and even a 20K/year job could be immensely helpful. If there is no rebound then we ALL have a lot more to worry about than money since that means the economic apocalypse has come -> think guns and ammo at that stage.

Yeah, the extreme scenario certainly begs the question of what should be done.  A rebalance move would be great if things rebound, but if they drop another 20% not so much.  As well, having a 2 year buffer instead of a 5 year one add anxiety - and fighting off the hordes of zombies is going to be stressful enough. 

What does the group say?  In this hypothetical scenario, would a rebalance be a Mustachian move or a market-timer move?

Not market timing if your Investor Policy Statement tells you to rebalance in that scenario. Some people have 5% or 10% bands that mandate rebalancing over time.

Remember, the 20K part time job would allow your 80 K in bonds to last 4 years instead of just 2 years in your extreme scenario, giving you some more breathing room.

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Re: Is a 7% return unlikely without a complex approach?
« Reply #149 on: December 14, 2021, 11:20:25 AM »
What does the group say?  In this hypothetical scenario, would a rebalance be a Mustachian move or a market-timer move?

While I disagree with the premise that Mustachian and market-timer is a valid dichotomy, I rebalance whenever I see that my bond position is more than 25% out of whack in either direction.  I rebalance as I feel like it within those ranges.  Since I have such a low allocation to bonds, I'm typically not forced to rebalance very often.

In that hypothetical, I'd be rebalancing all the way down to maintain my AA, which would mean selling bonds and buying stocks.  Which is pretty much what I did in the COVD semi-flash correction last spring.  I went from bonds to stocks on 2/26,  2/28, 3/10, 3/11, 3/12, 3/13, and 3/17/20.  I also did half of my 2020 Roth conversion on 3/17/20.