Author Topic: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill  (Read 6804 times)

vand

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2024, 06:45:27 AM »
Who gave them credibility in the first place? The government? The ONLY goal the FED has is to keep creating money. The moment they stop, the house of cards collapses. Period. There is no way to sugar-coat it.

Regarding the last 12 years, yeah Bernanke made a great decision to apply a "made up from thin air" 2% target in 2012 and the only reason he did that is because he was pressured into presenting some form of "target". The two percent inflation goal was a popular trend that began in New Zealand based on literally nothing more than a tongue in cheek comment made 35 years ago.

@nereo would be correct to take the historical viewpoint and go wayyyy the fuck back in history and make a legitimate study based on actual numbers.

The truth of the matter today is that the economy is NOT good, inflation is NOT going to stop anytime soon, and rate cuts are not coming. The FED has one job only and that is to continue creating debt from nothing. They will do whatever they can to keep the market alive and the economy appearing to look manageable but anyone who sees all the data points knows the official narrative regarding the state of the "post-pandemic economy" has been complete bullshit and will continue on that way.
How is the economy "NOT good" exactly? Please provide data to back up this assertion.

My data is: US unemployment at 3.8% (near historical lows). US annualized GDP growth at 3.4%, above average. US corporate earnings at the highest level ever (adjusted for inflation). US non-farm productivity at it's highest level ever. 3rd highest year of US personal income per Capita (inflation adjusted). Highest inflation-adjusted US personal disposable income ever (except for the pandemic money-giveaway year).

This seems like the best the US economy has been doing in a very long time (perhaps ever).
You are only looking at the income statement and not at the balance sheet:

huge Federal budget deficit
huge public trade decifit
record Debt/GDP

If your economy grew $10bn but your debt went up by $20bn did you really grow? hmm..

People become blindsided and say that a country doesn't need to pay back its debt.. welll, they may be able to roll it over easier than a household, but I happen to also subscribe to the idea that no entity, individual, state or country, that has an unlimited line of credit with the rest of the world (sure, I know the US is far from unique in this department, which is what makes it all the more fascinating)
The next level down in the analysis is adding back 2% real depreciation of one's $34 trillion national debt. That's like $680B of real debt relief thanks to inflation.

Sure, there's a lot of variance around the optimal mean, but running at 2% gives you more margin for error if things take a turn for the worse than being either side of it

Does it really though? What I’ve heard and argued convincingly is that inflation at/near 0% is really bad, and much worse than 4-5%, which is annoying but generally much better.

The real danger is with zero or deflationary numbers relative to 4-5%; ergo a target closer to 2.5-3% makes better policy.

Alright then, keep gaslighting.  I can't have a serious discussion when you say that up is down and black is white.

nereo

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2024, 08:08:47 AM »
Who gave them credibility in the first place? The government? The ONLY goal the FED has is to keep creating money. The moment they stop, the house of cards collapses. Period. There is no way to sugar-coat it.

Regarding the last 12 years, yeah Bernanke made a great decision to apply a "made up from thin air" 2% target in 2012 and the only reason he did that is because he was pressured into presenting some form of "target". The two percent inflation goal was a popular trend that began in New Zealand based on literally nothing more than a tongue in cheek comment made 35 years ago.

@nereo would be correct to take the historical viewpoint and go wayyyy the fuck back in history and make a legitimate study based on actual numbers.

The truth of the matter today is that the economy is NOT good, inflation is NOT going to stop anytime soon, and rate cuts are not coming. The FED has one job only and that is to continue creating debt from nothing. They will do whatever they can to keep the market alive and the economy appearing to look manageable but anyone who sees all the data points knows the official narrative regarding the state of the "post-pandemic economy" has been complete bullshit and will continue on that way.
How is the economy "NOT good" exactly? Please provide data to back up this assertion.

My data is: US unemployment at 3.8% (near historical lows). US annualized GDP growth at 3.4%, above average. US corporate earnings at the highest level ever (adjusted for inflation). US non-farm productivity at it's highest level ever. 3rd highest year of US personal income per Capita (inflation adjusted). Highest inflation-adjusted US personal disposable income ever (except for the pandemic money-giveaway year).

This seems like the best the US economy has been doing in a very long time (perhaps ever).
You are only looking at the income statement and not at the balance sheet:

huge Federal budget deficit
huge public trade decifit
record Debt/GDP

If your economy grew $10bn but your debt went up by $20bn did you really grow? hmm..

People become blindsided and say that a country doesn't need to pay back its debt.. welll, they may be able to roll it over easier than a household, but I happen to also subscribe to the idea that no entity, individual, state or country, that has an unlimited line of credit with the rest of the world (sure, I know the US is far from unique in this department, which is what makes it all the more fascinating)
The next level down in the analysis is adding back 2% real depreciation of one's $34 trillion national debt. That's like $680B of real debt relief thanks to inflation.

Sure, there's a lot of variance around the optimal mean, but running at 2% gives you more margin for error if things take a turn for the worse than being either side of it

Does it really though? What I’ve heard and argued convincingly is that inflation at/near 0% is really bad, and much worse than 4-5%, which is annoying but generally much better.

The real danger is with zero or deflationary numbers relative to 4-5%; ergo a target closer to 2.5-3% makes better policy.

Alright then, keep gaslighting.  I can't have a serious discussion when you say that up is down and black is white.

How is that gaslighting? I’m not convinced that 2% is an ideal target, and clearly I’m not alone in that regard. I agree that inflation is currently 3.x and the Fed is trying to bring it down without Sam showing nh the economy ( the so called “soft landing”).

WayDownSouth

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2024, 07:35:07 PM »
Who gave them credibility in the first place? The government? The ONLY goal the FED has is to keep creating money. The moment they stop, the house of cards collapses. Period. There is no way to sugar-coat it.

Regarding the last 12 years, yeah Bernanke made a great decision to apply a "made up from thin air" 2% target in 2012 and the only reason he did that is because he was pressured into presenting some form of "target". The two percent inflation goal was a popular trend that began in New Zealand based on literally nothing more than a tongue in cheek comment made 35 years ago.

@nereo would be correct to take the historical viewpoint and go wayyyy the fuck back in history and make a legitimate study based on actual numbers.

The truth of the matter today is that the economy is NOT good, inflation is NOT going to stop anytime soon, and rate cuts are not coming. The FED has one job only and that is to continue creating debt from nothing. They will do whatever they can to keep the market alive and the economy appearing to look manageable but anyone who sees all the data points knows the official narrative regarding the state of the "post-pandemic economy" has been complete bullshit and will continue on that way.
How is the economy "NOT good" exactly? Please provide data to back up this assertion.

My data is: US unemployment at 3.8% (near historical lows). US annualized GDP growth at 3.4%, above average. US corporate earnings at the highest level ever (adjusted for inflation). US non-farm productivity at it's highest level ever. 3rd highest year of US personal income per Capita (inflation adjusted). Highest inflation-adjusted US personal disposable income ever (except for the pandemic money-giveaway year).

This seems like the best the US economy has been doing in a very long time (perhaps ever).
You are only looking at the income statement and not at the balance sheet:

huge Federal budget deficit
huge public trade decifit
record Debt/GDP

If your economy grew $10bn but your debt went up by $20bn did you really grow? hmm..

People become blindsided and say that a country doesn't need to pay back its debt.. welll, they may be able to roll it over easier than a household, but I happen to also subscribe to the idea that no entity, individual, state or country, that has an unlimited line of credit with the rest of the world (sure, I know the US is far from unique in this department, which is what makes it all the more fascinating)
The next level down in the analysis is adding back 2% real depreciation of one's $34 trillion national debt. That's like $680B of real debt relief thanks to inflation.

Sure, there's a lot of variance around the optimal mean, but running at 2% gives you more margin for error if things take a turn for the worse than being either side of it

Does it really though? What I’ve heard and argued convincingly is that inflation at/near 0% is really bad, and much worse than 4-5%, which is annoying but generally much better.

The real danger is with zero or deflationary numbers relative to 4-5%; ergo a target closer to 2.5-3% makes better policy.
That's a fair thought, @nereo. So maybe 2% was picked over the safer 3% because:
a) economists are overconfident in their fine-tuning ability and don't perceive much added benefit from 3%
b) economists are mostly conservative and for ideology and self-interest want to preserve the purchasing power of capital
c) it's more politically acceptable to say we're targeting very low inflation
d) if there is a credibility shortage during inflationary times, and investors think you'll miss your target by 1%, better to have markets expect you'll miss your target and hit 3% than for them to think you'll miss your target and hit 4%.

The answer is C!

reeshau

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2024, 07:43:45 PM »
e)  Everyone else is doing it!  It is easier to take the heat following standard wisdom, rather than blazing your own trail.

WayDownSouth

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2024, 07:48:29 PM »
e)  Everyone else is doing it!  It is easier to take the heat following standard wisdom, rather than blazing your own trail.

This is an excellent answer IMO.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2024, 08:07:59 AM »
The Fed has held a 2% inflation target for years, both before and during this episode of high inflation.  If it wants to be predictable, it needs to keep a 2% inflation target.  Changing the goalposts now would signal the market that the Fed can change what they're trying to do at any time - that the market should not trust the Fed to follow through on what they say they will do.

A good example is back in 2021 Q4 to 2022 Q1, where the Fed guided for a higher Fed funds rate.  The market priced this in even before the first Fed rate hike.  The bond market trusted the Fed, and watched the Fed do exactly what it said.

A slightly harder example is 2024, when the market kept believing in 6 rate cuts this year, starting in March.  The Fed held its ground, giving 3 rate cuts as a dot plot / forward guidance.  The market gradually gave in, and learned the Fed is doing what it said it would do.  Ruining that ruins one of the most powerful tools of the Fed: forward guidance.  At least from my perspective, that is a strong reason not to change expectations of a 2% inflation target.

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2024, 09:38:09 AM »
The Fed has held a 2% inflation target for years, both before and during this episode of high inflation.  If it wants to be predictable, it needs to keep a 2% inflation target.  Changing the goalposts now would signal the market that the Fed can change what they're trying to do at any time - that the market should not trust the Fed to follow through on what they say they will do.
This part about communication and credibility affecting inflation expectations is true. It's a separate question though, whether the Fed selected the right goalpost in the first place. If they selected the wrong goalposts, it could have dysfunctional implications for the economy.

2% could be worse than 3% in the sense that such a low-inflation economy could be inherently bubble-prone. A very low discount rate inflates the real present value of very distant and hence very speculative cash flows. Inflation is a cost applied to future cash flows just like an interest expense, because cash flows received or paid in the future will purchase less than cash flows received or paid now.

Thus we see landlords buying properties that fail the 1% rule, and are in fact heavily cash-flow negative right now, because the Fed is considered credible and so investors are not heavily discounting cash flows expected to arrive five or ten years from now. Thus we see investors piling into things like crypto and gold, which offer no cashflows, because inflation expectations are so low it is cheap to play greater-fool-theory games. Thus the S&P500 has a current earnings yield of only 3.7%.

The Fed might finally have the tools to hold inflation around 2% with relative consistency, but they may have merely replaced the business cycle with the bubble cycle.

Eventually, the recessions come from asset price bubbles instead of from inflationary shocks or too-tight monetary policy. The multi-year asset bubbles ending in 2000 and 2008 were perhaps early examples that will become a trend. Those episodes predated officially communicated inflation targeting, but reflected investors overpaying for distant cash flows in speculative manias for dot com stocks and housing/mortgages. I think it takes a deep confidence in the Fed to make such investments, but in the end the Fed's mandate does not include the deflation of asset bubbles. So the Fed is not empowered to pop bubbles.

The 2016-2018 series of rate hikes were perhaps an experiment to see if this trap could be avoided, targeting what was at the time perceived to be risky valuations for housing and stocks. I watched in awe as the Fed's dual mandate and inflation target were set aside for the sake of the "normalization" buzzword and arbitrary concepts of a neutral policy rate that were not tied to contemporary measurements. The first hike, in January 2016, came in a month when CPI was 1.24% and PCE was 0.2%, and they had both been low for years. It made no sense in traditional economic terms to hike rates as if we had an inflation problem. Why then, did the FOMC do it?

I think Fed officials circa 2016 were afraid policy was leading us into another bubble economy, and thought the best way to maximize employment - given that inflation was not an issue at the time and given that they weren't going to raise the inflation target - was to prevent bubbles from forming in the first place. As Janet Yellen noted in an October 2016 speech, recovery from the GFC was slower than models anticipated, possibly because households were increasing their savings to make up for negative home equity and possibly because supply-side destruction during the GFC had simultaneously reduced the economy's potential (i.e. Closed businesses and their contribution to GDP and employment are not immediately replaced, even if the demand is there - an application of the concept of hysteresis as seen in other engineering disciplines.).

The experiment was halted when the economy started making pre-recessionary sounds, suggesting the neutral rate was lower than everyone's theoretical assumptions. Then it was utterly confounded by the pandemic. However, Fed officials who lived through the last 25 years probably have an eye on asset prices, in addition to inflation and unemployment numbers. They're not supposed to be looking at asset prices though, even though we are all aware that asset bubbles can cause widespread unemployment.

So maybe the Fed's concerns about asset bubbles are a band-aid over the flaws of their 2% inflation target, and a 3% target would produce a less forward-looking and bubble-prone investment zeitgeist, at the cost of ending some marginally profitable business projects. Or maybe we prefer a bubble-cycle economy to a business-cycle economy, because we believe we can either profit from or foresee the bubbles, whereas business-cycle recessions seem to come out of the blue.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2024, 07:36:59 AM »
I'm not seeing how a bubble forms from 2% vs 3% expectations, when inflation data comes out monthly.  By a bubble, I'm thinking a crash of 20% or more when expectations meet reality.  Inflation gets a monthly reality check.  If someone ignored inflation for 5 years, and found out it was 1% higher, that seems like a 5% shock.  Not really a bubble, in my view.  I'm not seeing how 2% vs 3% inflation could become a bubble.

The dot-com bubble came from inflated prices, which can be seen in 10-year cyclical P/E ratio ("CAPE"). In Jan 1995, CAPE was 20.2, and by Jan 1999 it was 40.57.  Earnings went nowhere while prices doubled in 4 years.  One problem with CAPE is that it has been mostly above 30 since 2017, suggesting it can take many years before extreme valuations correct.

I view 2008 as a fraud run by investment banks.  People with no jobs or assets were offered free houses, so they accepted.  Rating agencies stayed quiet and collected fees, much like the investment banks who created CDOs (and synthetic CDOs).  When the payments dropped, the fraud was exposed and crashed the world economy - the exposure to CDOs was everywhere.  I'm sure there have been other periods of history with similar moves in housing prices and/or interest rates... but without the fraud at its core, there would not have been a crisis.  I guess I view the global financial crisis as more like a scam than a bubble.

I don't know what to make of markets in 2024.  CAPE is near 34, having reached its second highest peak of all time (highest being the dot-com bubble).  If CAPE is in a bubble, why does it take so long to collapse?  If a crash is ahead, why is it lagging the inverted yield curve by 2+ years?  (Maybe owing to all the cash the government handed out in 2020-2021)

My largest investment is in floating-rate US Treasuries.  They pay slightly more than cash, and adjust those payments weekly.  When rates go up or down, the investment isn't impacted - it only has days before it adjusts.  I get no exposure to duration, but some extra yield.  At current interest rates, I can just wait.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2024, 08:52:32 AM »
There's mounting evidence that the tail end of the inflation spike of 2021-23 is proving very fat and stubbornly hard to snuff out-

I think a wage-price spiral is pretty tough to stop quickly, and doing so by really putting the brakes on the economy would be somewhat unfair to different sectors of the economy.

I was chatting with a buddy who is on a local school board.  They just approved 10% wage increases for their unionized teachers who are on multiyear contracts and have been taking it on the chin since 2020 as they've been locked into an old contract. 

Similarly, another buddy is a partner in a private doctors' group that has longterm contracts with hospital systems.  They've similarly gotten pummeled by inflation, and as those contracts come up for renewal they're demanding very large increases.

Should the Fed really be trying to short circuit this repricing?  It seems to me that would be favoring those who switch jobs frequently or engage in shorter contracts over those with greater employment longevity or longer contracts.  This isn't even a wage-price spiral, it's just the first repricing for many sectors.

vand

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2024, 12:03:09 AM »
There's mounting evidence that the tail end of the inflation spike of 2021-23 is proving very fat and stubbornly hard to snuff out-

I think a wage-price spiral is pretty tough to stop quickly, and doing so by really putting the brakes on the economy would be somewhat unfair to different sectors of the economy.

I was chatting with a buddy who is on a local school board.  They just approved 10% wage increases for their unionized teachers who are on multiyear contracts and have been taking it on the chin since 2020 as they've been locked into an old contract. 

Similarly, another buddy is a partner in a private doctors' group that has longterm contracts with hospital systems.  They've similarly gotten pummeled by inflation, and as those contracts come up for renewal they're demanding very large increases.

Should the Fed really be trying to short circuit this repricing?  It seems to me that would be favoring those who switch jobs frequently or engage in shorter contracts over those with greater employment longevity or longer contracts.  This isn't even a wage-price spiral, it's just the first repricing for many sectors.

Agreed. Wages are, let us not forget, just prices - they go up for the same reason that other prices go up due to more currency in circulation!! It's the one price that people should be happy to see go up as it means their purchasing power goes up. 

Fed reasoning, by extension, is saying that they want you to be poorer so that their macro numbers are more palatable - a somewhat perverse order of logic.

Wages are usually the last price to respond to inflation that has already played out in other areas of the economy and there is a lot of clawing back that still needs to happen to get real wages back to trend

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: Inflation - stubbornly hard to kill
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2024, 09:54:07 AM »
There's mounting evidence that the tail end of the inflation spike of 2021-23 is proving very fat and stubbornly hard to snuff out-

I think a wage-price spiral is pretty tough to stop quickly, and doing so by really putting the brakes on the economy would be somewhat unfair to different sectors of the economy.
[snip]

So, I think the economy of the US in 2024 is v.different from the 70s when the last real inflation fight took place.  This is no longer a nation of laborers.  We are service workers, engineers, and various G&A professionals.  That is, productively is largely driven by technology, especially software, and firms are far more scalable. Unless you are talking about something like a pool cleaning company, wages make up a decreasing and almost vanishingly small part of the cost of the products and services we consume.  The $20 minimum for fast food in CA isn't going to do squat the price of electronics, cell phone contracts or other subscription services, etc. 

That is, wages are largely decoupled from inflation in the more recent scenario.  At least relatively.  I'd argue that increasing wages actually have a positive effect on bringing down inflation as consumption goes up, improving margins (due to the previously mentioned scalability) without materially increasing costs.