Author Topic: Inflation & Interest Rates: share your data sources, models, and assumptions  (Read 140570 times)

ChpBstrd

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BicycleB

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Source: https://www.conference-board.org/topics/us-leading-indicators

That's a very interesting graph!

Wildly overinterpreting: it looks as if the leading economic indicators did lead heading into the 2001 and 2009 recessions, but COVID came in before 2021's LEIs had built up much negative momentum. Maybe soon we'll get the recession that might have originally occurred in 2021, but was overridden by COVID stimulus.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Given that I don't see anything, and that Investopedia claims the above data is no longer used by economists, where is the evidence that M1, M2, and M3 help predict recession?
You have to go back to the Great Depression and earlier to find instances where money supply growth has gone negative, which is farther back than FRED will chart and also beyond living memory:


Source: https://twitter.com/nickgerli1/status/1633536085308366866?s=20
Each of the past 4 instances of money supply contraction occurred alongside double digit unemployment. The last time the Fed hiked rates while money supply was falling was 1931. I could have been more accurate by saying a falling money supply predicts depressions.
If I mention an inverted yield curve after a global pandemic, am I talking about the 1921 depression or now?  "Yes", with both also preceeded by a falling money supply and war in Europe.  Maybe it's worth learning more about the 1921 depression (that preceded the great depression by 10 years).

But I'd want to learn it from an expert, and that Twitter feed is run by someone who "started in real estate in 2011".  One downside of comparisons from 90-150 years ago is the gold standard.  If I am mapping the start dates correctly, each of those four depressions happened on the gold standard.  Money could not be printed - it had to be dug out of the ground.

"The gold standard was the basis for the international monetary system from the 1870s to the early 1920s, and from the late 1920s to 1932 as well as from 1944 until 1971 when the United States unilaterally terminated convertibility of the US dollar to gold"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

Putting this together, I think M2 could have been impacted by the gold standard.  The four depressions (1873, 1893, 1921, 1929) all occurred on the gold standard, which ended over 50 years ago.  It would be interesting to get an economist's take on all of this.

BicycleB

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Interestingly, I just re-read a first person account of being in business at that time ("Rickenbacker", an autobiography of a then-famous DIY auto mechanic named Eddie Rickenbacker who became America's leading fighter pilot of WW I, then founded an auto manufacturer in the 1920s; soon after, he operated the racetrack for the Indy 500 auto race, followed by an airline).

The recession was pretty strong - huge by modern standards, I think. Still, there were solvent banks willing to make loans to selected entrepreneurs. Rickenbacker doesn't mention it, but other major differences are the nonexistence of Social Security and the FDIC. Perhaps the larger govt backstops are the biggest difference between now and then.

From general reading in the past, the war situation was arguably more different than similar, at least on the global level. WW I had been a huge conflict in Europe, meaning the dominant center of the global economy at the time, so there was a lot of damage to recover from. The recession there combined with war reparations famously led to Germany's 1923-24 hyperinflation. Our current war situation seems very different, in that we haven't had a large shooting war in decades and the global economy's central regions (Europe, US, Asia) are unscathed though arming; in that sense, perhaps globally we are more similar to 1910 than 1920. Though it must be admitted that a nation near Russia had its identity at stake in both cases, since in the early 1920s, the Austro-Hungarian empire was fracturing into various modern nations.

From general reading, multiple countries had internal revolutionary / reformist movements during that era and some prevailed (Russia ->USSR; Germany went from empire to republic; Austro-Hungary fractured into various countries, such as Turkey). So politics appears to have been a more dramatic change vector. Perhaps our modern system has more political stability?

I suppose from the US perspective, it's similar to 1920s in that WW I had left our homeland unscathed, so we coasted through a plain recession even though parts of Europe were suffering nationally existential crises.

Agreed, analysis by a competent economist would be helpful! Especially one with a good sense of history.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 07:28:13 AM by BicycleB »

maizefolk

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Would you recommend Rickenbacker as a good book to learn more about the experience of going through the great depression as a businessman, @BicycleB? It sounds interesting but I wasn't sure if you are bringing up some side points in a book mostly about other things or if the experience of the great depression is a major focus of the book.

Agreed that the existence of both the FDIC and social security, or even food stamps, which didn't exist until 1939, and now both prevent a great deal of human suffering and act as one of the "automatic stabilizers*", means any depression today is likely to be either more mild than the great depression or will be as bad or worse in new and exciting ways rather than a rerun of that experience. But it is still fascinating to learn about since it was an era so different from anything I, or almost anyone I've had the chance to meet and talk with, has ever lived through.

*Automatic stabilizers are existing government policies that, without any intervention or voting by congress, increase government spending during recessions and decrease it during economic expansions. When the economic is contracting and a lot of people lose their jobs, a lot more people become eligible for SNAP (food stamps) and the government is sending out more money to people who are likely to spend it quickly, producing significant economic multipliers. When unemployment is low, eligibility for SNAP and spending on the program declines.

ChpBstrd

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@MustacheAndaHalf yes the gold standard looms large here. It prevented countries from expanding the money supply to deal with economic contractions. Today it seems as if there's QE if the economy does so much as sniffle.

M2 is defined as M1 (cash, savings accounts, checking accounts) plus time deposits like certificates of deposit or money market funds. I don't know if CD's or MM funds were common in the 1920s, but it's worth noting that bank runs would not change M1 if people were only converting their savings/checking accounts to cash, because both are within the definition of M1. Bank withdraws are only a change of one subcategory of M1 to another subcategory of M1. M2 includes M1, so a bank run would not change M2 either. Thus we cannot account for the dips in M2 as consequences of the bank runs that were more common in the pre-FDIC era.

In a time before QT was invented, reductions in M2 were probably due to government surpluses. When the government pulls in more revenue than it sends back into the economy through spending, the result is fewer dollars circulating in the economy. E.g. if the government instituted a new income tax and put the proceeds into a special account at the Federal Reserve, the number of dollars circulating in the economy (M1, M2) would decrease. Those dollars in the new Federal Reserve account might as well be fictitious because they are unavailable in the economy, and this would be the opposite of money printing.

According to Wikipedia (which has links to economists' writings / sources):
Quote
Factors that economists have pointed to as potentially causing or contributing to the downturn include troops returning from the war, which created a surge in the civilian labor force and more unemployment and wage stagnation; a decline in agricultural commodity prices because of the post-war recovery of European agricultural output, which increased supply; tighter monetary policy to combat the postwar inflation of 1919; and expectations of future deflation that led to reduced investment.
Quote
In response to post–World War I inflation the Federal Reserve Bank of New York began raising interest rates sharply. In December 1919 the rate was raised from 4.75% to 5%. A month later it was raised to 6%, and in June 1920 it was raised to 7% (the highest interest rates of any period except the 1970s and early 1980s).
Quote
According to a 1989 analysis by Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz, the recession of 1920–1921 was the result of an unnecessary contractionary monetary policy by the Federal Reserve Bank.[17] Paul Krugman agrees that high interest rates due to the Fed's effort to fight inflation caused the problem. This did not cause a deficiency in aggregate demand but in aggregate supply. Once the Fed relaxed its monetary policy, the economy rapidly recovered.[

The US government ran large deficits in the WW1 years of 1917-1919, and then suddenly swung back to a surplus in 2020 as military payrolls were cut and the tax base expanded. This is the simplest explanation for why M2 plunged: the government abruptly stopped using debt to print dollars for war funding (even if those dollars were gold-backed, the debt was essentially a promise of future gold-backed dollars... i.e. we'll mine the gold later). Millions of veterans suddenly lost their paychecks and started competing for work, driving up employment insecurity, driving down wages, and driving down people's willingness to spend. The 225bp in rate hikes seems small in comparison with our recent 500bp in rate hikes, but they also occurred within 7 months versus 14 months.

Comparing 1920 to today, the following ingredients are in place:

-a rapid series of rate hikes
-the government's deficit is rapidly becoming smaller
-M2 is falling precipitously
-a policy focus on last year's inflation rather than the current trend or future trajectory
-rapidly falling commodity prices

The following ingredient is NOT in place:

-sudden loss of income for a large percentage of the workforce due to an exogenous event or government decision

From general reading, multiple countries had internal revolutionary / reformist movements during that era and some prevailed (Russia ->USSR; Germany went from empire to republic; Austro-Hungary fractured into various countries, such as Turkey). So politics appears to have been a more dramatic change vector. Perhaps our modern system has more political stability?
IDK. In the past 2 years, both the United States and Russia have experienced coup attempts, and US institutions are weakening. Meanwhile the UK dropped out of the Eurozone and is rapidly losing economic influence. China and Russia, meanwhile, are looking like 19th or 20th century empires with wars of imperial expansion or the threat thereof. There's a case to be made that the internet is destabilizing to open democracies in particular, and that we are entering an era where conflicts are provoked by new trends in media consumption, as occurred after the invention of the printing press and the radio. AI's (former buzzword: algorithms) in particular are already very good at targeted marketing and packaging people's internet experiences into ideological bubbles, and a shift has occurred where people prefer these bubbles over traditional news media. If AI/algos become even better at predicting our preferences and biases, then ideological polarization and a lack of shared "facts" could make democratic cooperation impossible. Things may seem stable now, but Europe probably seemed stable until Franz Ferdinand was shot.

But it's also true nothing like WW1 is occurring today or explaining today's situation. Ukraine is an economic backwater, whereas WW1 occurred at the center of the global economy of the time.

The better metaphor is that US government deficit spending during the pandemic was similar to what we might expect during a large war, and as was the case after WW1 and WW2, the sudden withdraw of such spending leads to a reduction in growth. In historical examples, sudden reductions in M2 appear to be a case of taxes exceeding government spending, whereas today QT is taking the place of budget surpluses in moving dollars out of M2 categories and onto the Federal Reserve's balance sheet. The federal deficit as a % of GDP was actually lower in 2022 than it was pre-pandemic, so this is a parallel to 1920.

The situation of having a large national debt on one hand and a large Federal Reserve balance sheet on the other would seem weird to most people from the 20th century, but this configuration offers the advantage of being able to influence the money supply independently from taxes, interest rates, or government spending - each of which has undesirable side effects. This new configuration turned the GFC from a probable multi-year depression into an 18-month severe recession where the unemployment rate just touched 10% for a single month. Then in conjunction with Keynesian helicopter money it turned the pandemic would-be depression into the shortest recession in history. We can actually snuff out depressions now, and this new paradigm has had two successful demonstrations in the past 15 years.

So I think politics show signs of getting less stable after decades of stability, and the macroeconomic situation is getting more stable as the US government adopts direct controls over the money supply and gets better at applying those controls. That said, I still think the FOMC will overshoot and withdraw too much money supply later this year. They're not that good yet. Powell just this week made comments suggesting QT will continue for at least the next several months, despite disinflation occurring at a normally-startling 0.5% per month pace.

The Fed's non-crisis reaction function seems to require at least 6 months of data to change policy, plus another 4-6 months to communicate the change before implementing it. The federal government also has a crisis reaction function in which decisions can be made within weeks, as they were in 2008 and 2020, and as was done with banks in 2023.

The rapid growth of inflation in 2021-2022 was not sufficient to activate the crisis reaction function, so the Fed's policy pivot from increasing stimulation to increasing restrictiveness did not occur until March 2022. Looking ahead, I wonder if some crisis will occur that forces the Fed to pivot quickly away from QT and to cut rates, or if we will remain on the non-crisis reaction function for another, say, 6 months. The non-crisis reaction function seems too slow to respond to changing economic conditions and therefore is destined to swerve from stimulus to restriction and back to stimulus as it tends to arrive months too late and then must overshoot in its interventions, creating the need for its next pivot. The crisis function meanwhile, is limited by the requirement that it can't be used until a crisis is occurring, such as a bunch of bank failures, a sudden uptick in unemployment, a currency crisis, collapsing institutions, seized markets, terror attacks, etc.

Neither reaction function is capable of being proactive, or operating from forecasts, trends, or historical analogies. Proactive policy changes would be politically harder to defend, and by being solely reactive or "data dependent" one is never picking the wrong path.

So which do we get first? A crisis or many months of data? If the former, there could be an acute period of stress followed by a sudden policy pivot and buying opportunity (see April 2020). If the later, get ready for a higher peak interest rate, even deeper yield curve inversions, and QT continuing long enough to swing us uncomfortably close to deflation - the eventual crisis if no other crisis appears first. I thought the recent bank failures might activate the crisis reaction function, but the Feds seem to have mentally separated that issue from monetary policy and solved/patched the bank issue separately from QT and interest rates. Neither the crisis or non-crisis functions seem particularly good for bullish investors right now. A crisis will lead to lower asset prices sometime in the future, and the lack of a crisis seems likely to lead to higher rates and more shrinkage in the money supply, eventually leading to recession and a drawn-out period of lower earnings. As illustrated in 1998 and 2020, a crisis may be better than a normal recession for stocks because the sudden policy intervention prevents too much earnings loss, unemployment, bankruptcies, contagion, etc.   

reeshau

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Would you recommend Rickenbacker as a good book to learn more about the experience of going through the great depression as a businessman, @BicycleB?

For this, you might also want to try The Great Depression: A Diary, by Benjamin Roth.  I found it through an interview with Morgan Housel, who called it: “The best economics book I’ve read, written by a person who didn’t know he was writing one.”

EscapeVelocity2020

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I might be in the minority here, but I don't think there are good comparisons between what happened during early 1900's depressions and anything we will see going forward.  As others pointed out, back then we had a gold standard, as well as ludicriously little ability to see and understand the economy until the computer age (ca 1945).  It's kinda like trying to compare war pre-nukes to war post-nukes....

One unique situation which I'd love to understand better is what it means when the Fed carries a bunch of low yield debt on its balance sheet while the government is paying higher rates on newly issued debt.  For a starting point, there's this - How the Fed “Went Broke”  

Quote
In September 2022, the Federal Reserve began operating at a loss.

This is because they had raised interest rates unusually quickly throughout the year, including on their own liabilities. Meanwhile, most of their assets are long-duration, meaning that their various U.S. Treasuries and mortgage-backed securities are locked in at lower fixed-rate interest rates and don’t adjust upwards. As a result, the Federal Reserve is now paying out more interest on its  liabilities than it is earning on its assets.

My operating theory is that all of this is leading us to a lost decade or two, a la Japan, with needs to increase tax receipts and recapitalize our government, vs. a great depression shock a la 1929.  If that really looks all that different to end users at the end of the decade might just be semantics.

BicycleB

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Would you recommend Rickenbacker as a good book to learn more about the experience of going through the great depression as a businessman, @BicycleB?

For this, you might also want to try The Great Depression: A Diary, by Benjamin Roth.  I found it through an interview with Morgan Housel, who called it: “The best economics book I’ve read, written by a person who didn’t know he was writing one.”

@maizefolk, Roth's book might be the one.

Rickenbacker isn't. Very much the biography of someone born in 1890, from a societal perspective it's more about the development of the aviation industry than anything, with a warmup section about going into the fledgling auto industry around 1905 (pre-Model T, though he doesn't point that out), becoming eventually a race car driver in his teens and twenties (roughly 1908-1917), and a large section in the middle about Rickenbacker individually touring Russia at Roosevelt's request during World War II to study their war machine and report back about their air force, manufacturing, etc. Similarly there's a chapter on the time in WW II when his return plane got downed in the Pacific and the passengers almost died during the subsequent 24 days (some did die). It's certainly focused on the guy's own adventures, which were historic, rather than economic things. In passing remarks he briefly displays pre-income-tax libertarian-type attitudes but offers no discussion.

Because most of his energy in the 1930s was about becoming the owner of a regional airline, Eastern Airways, that was one of the first passenger airlines, his Depression experience had more to do with analog tech implementation and early-stage business development than the economic times (which he doesn't refer to at all). His purchase arrangements for the airline, like the racetrack, involve a couple of paragraphs but simply mention the bones of the agreement's financing and sources. The car company chapter in the 1920s includes a couple of paragraphs with passing mention of economic conditions, and a couple paragraphs on the financing, notably that after it failed, he was thrilled to discover that a banker was willing to finance his next business (partly on his war hero status, perhaps, but in any case on the basis of his personal responsibility, or at least that's how he tells it). If anything, his biggest description of economic times is the 1890s, his childhood.

I found it a great illustration of different times partly because 95% or more isn't about the times per se, just the industries and a mover-and-shaker's participation in them. But going from a dollar-a-day factory wage era to the Mad Men period is something in itself.

BicycleB

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From general reading, multiple countries had internal revolutionary / reformist movements during that era and some prevailed (Russia ->USSR; Germany went from empire to republic; Austro-Hungary fractured into various countries, such as Turkey). So politics appears to have been a more dramatic change vector. Perhaps our modern system has more political stability?
IDK. In the past 2 years, both the United States and Russia have experienced coup attempts, and US institutions are weakening. Meanwhile the UK dropped out of the Eurozone and is rapidly losing economic influence. China and Russia, meanwhile, are looking like 19th or 20th century empires with wars of imperial expansion or the threat thereof. There's a case to be made that the internet is destabilizing to open democracies in particular, and that we are entering an era where conflicts are provoked by new trends in media consumption, as occurred after the invention of the printing press and the radio. AI's (former buzzword: algorithms) in particular are already very good at targeted marketing and packaging people's internet experiences into ideological bubbles, and a shift has occurred where people prefer these bubbles over traditional news media. If AI/algos become even better at predicting our preferences and biases, then ideological polarization and a lack of shared "facts" could make democratic cooperation impossible. Things may seem stable now, but Europe probably seemed stable until Franz Ferdinand was shot.


Agreed! It is unclear whether we will withstand the forces leading to conflict and possible wars/ revolutions / national breakups / authoritarian transformations / etc.

Thanks for all the parts of the post I didn't quote, too - very insightful and thought provoking.


MustacheAndaHalf

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@ChpBstrd - One of your quotes mentions Paul Krugman, who won the Nobel Prize in Economics.  About a week ago, he said this on Twitter:

"US economic news has been increasingly encouraging: falling inflation, no sign of a recession."
https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1671600158625128453

Mohamed El-Erian (President of Queen's College, Cambridge) says something similar, citing an upwards GDP revision from +1.3% to +2.0% :

"And to think that many last year forecasted the economy to fall into recession.
This is an economy that is much more resilient and agile than most others."
https://twitter.com/elerianm/status/1674419496780697600

Lawrence Summers (Former President of Harvard) says recession is undetermined.

"Given the large weight of housing in the consumption basket, these patterns imply that the growth rate of other items must fall substantially below 2% to get inflation back to target. Whether this can be accomplished w/o the economy tipping into recession remains to be seen."
https://twitter.com/LHSummers/status/1671831188980355076


A quick arriving recession would land in the next few months, which seems unlikely given the views of esteemed economists I quoted above.  I can add context to Larry Summer's quote, but basically the Fed can move the goalposts and avoid that risk.

There's room for a market pullback from the current levels.  CNN Fear & Greed Index shows "extreme greed" for most of June.  I think I'll exit some of my recession investments when the market gets less greedy, and then consider if I want to worry about the risk of mid 2024 recession.

ChpBstrd

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@MustacheAndaHalf I agree with the economists that the economy is currently great. Low unemployment, upward GDP predictions, falling NFCI, rising labor participation rate, rising durable goods orders, booming stock market, etc. are all signs of economic growth.

The problem is, the definition of recession is a reversal of such trends, and we cannot rule out a future reversal with a current trend. If most of those metrics turned for the worse, that would be the start of a recession. So all we can say today is that the numbers show a recession had not started yet at the time the data were collected. We cannot support a claim that a recession won't start X months from now. To do so would be like saying Apple's stock price has grown over the past 6 months, therefore it will grow over the next 6 months. Another illustration: It has gotten hotter each month this year so by December it will be 150 degrees F. Maybe these things will occur, but the premises don't support the conclusion. A reversal in the trend that occurs in the future would not contradict the premises.

You'll note the best economists speak in the present tense when they say the data don't indicate recession. But that's like saying there's no sign Apple stock is lower today than it was 6 months ago. We must be careful not to misinterpret these comments as saying the data prove there will not be a recession. The latter is a much bolder forecast. Economists make forecasts, but they tend to be explicit about "I'm forecasting..." and you'll rarely find one committing the extrapolation fallacy.

I suspect economic conditions usually look good when a recession is right around the corner, so I gathered some numbers. These all look like healthy economic numbers and a safe time to take on investment risk. In fact, all the metrics were about to turn for the worse. Each set of numbers hides a major SORR event right around the corner due to rate hikes and asset bubbles.

6 months before the March 2001 recession (Sept. 2000):
Unemployment: 3.9% (current is 3.7%)
Initial claims: only 301k (current is 401k)
Durable goods orders: +5.84% TTM (current is +5.4%)
GDP: +6.52% TTM (Q1 was +2.6%)
S&P500: +12.05% TTM (currently +14.9%)

6 months before the December 2007 recession (June 2007):
Unemployment: 4.6%
Initial claims: 313k
Durable goods orders: +3.46% TTM
GDP: +4.72% TTM
S&P500: +19.3% TTM

Would you invest in these economies? I probably would, unless I was thinking about the impact of asset bubbles and rate hikes (+190bp prior to 2000, +425bp prior to 2007, +500bp today). I suppose thinking about asset bubbles and rate hikes is the only way a person could have avoided 2000 and 2008.

A second point is that economists seem to have a spotty record of predicting recessions. The National Association for Business Economics surveyed their members in early August 2022 and 72% expected a recession before July 2023. By December 2022, a Wall Street Journal survey found that two-thirds thought a recession would happen in any part of 2023. In the latest iteration of the NABE survey, only 53% saw the probability of a recession in the next 12 months as >50%. So even if the first survey made the right prediction and a recession started in June 2023, a large percentage of economists seem to have reversed their position and became incorrect since then. If we get no recession starting in June 2023, then 72% of economists were wrong just 9 months ago. Either way involves a whole lot of economists being wrong.

Going back a few years in the history of economists forecasting, there is the January 2008 forecast by the Federal Reserve Bank Governors and Reserve Bank Presidents - published 2 months into what would become the worst recession since the Great Depression - in which they forecasted moderate GDP growth, unemployment, and inflation. It's good comedy for those who like their comedy dark. But then again, they were looking at 2007 data which seemed to indicate no recession.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2023, 04:35:55 PM by ChpBstrd »

MustacheAndaHalf

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A metaphor to Apple stock is not data.  For example, Mohammed El-Erian's comment was accompanied by GDP being revised upwards from 1.3% to 2.0%.  Paul Krugman had a series of tweets showing various measures of inflation and the economy.  Each of those were accompanied by data, not metaphors.

Do you have data showing recession is likely to occur within the next 3 months?  Not that recession will or won't occur, but that it will happen in 2023 Q3?

ChpBstrd

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A metaphor to Apple stock is not data.  For example, Mohammed El-Erian's comment was accompanied by GDP being revised upwards from 1.3% to 2.0%.  Paul Krugman had a series of tweets showing various measures of inflation and the economy.  Each of those were accompanied by data, not metaphors.

Do you have data showing recession is likely to occur within the next 3 months?  Not that recession will or won't occur, but that it will happen in 2023 Q3?
The metaphors were necessary to illustrate the extrapolation fallacy. That said, I don't think the data support pinning a recession to a particular quarter. Recession could start in any of the next 4-6 quarters and still be consistent with past patterns.

I guess this is a good time to summarize the evidence for a recession, and make some comments about the predictive reliability and timeliness of each dataset.

1) 500bp rate hiking campaign: In modern history, the US economy has never survived a rate hiking campaign larger than the 300bp campaigns of 1983-1984 and 1994-1995 without going into recession within 3 years from the start of the campaign. So for rate hiking campaigns greater than 300 bp, the historical odds of recession following within 3 years are 100%. Smaller rate hiking campaigns have been followed by recession, such as the ~175bp hiking campaign of 1999-2000.  One might quibble that the 459bp rise in overnight rates between 1961 and 1966 counts as a rate hiking campaign, but I would argue a 64 month gradual rise is a lot different than 500bp over just 14 months. The former scenario allowed plenty to time for businesses to realign. The latter requires corporations to either deleverage quickly or suffer suddenly high interest expenses, and encourages the postponement or cancellation of low-ROI projects which made sense in an era of lower rates.


2) Yield curve inversions: The 10y/2y yield curve inversion has predicted 5 out of 6 recessions over the past 47 years. The only failure to predict in recent history was the COVID-induced recession of 2020, and even before then the 10/2 touched zero. The 10y/3m yield curve has the same record. The 10y/2y, but not the 10y/3m, had a slight false positive in 1998 amid a worldwide financial crisis that did not lead to recession. The predictive reliability of yield curves is why they are often cited by economists. The yield curve tends to flip to normal right before the recession starts, which is generally a false dawn, and they haven't done so yet.



3) The Conference Board's Leading Economic Indicators Index:The LEI has contracted into what the Conference Board calls "recession signal" territory, driven down by the Leading Credit Index, the 10y/FFR spread, consumer expectations, and new orders. The LEI has a short history but offered months of advance warning of the 2001 and 2007 recessions. Like the yield curve inversions, it was caught off guard by the pandemic, but then gave a signal once the recession had started. The LEI also provided a strong "buy" signal when the GFC and COVID recessions were ending which is not something you get from the yield curves.

4) Falling Money Supply: QT is causing something to happen which hasn't happened outside of the depressions of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The overall supply of money is going down by $95B per month, or about $285 per person in the US population, per month. As discussed above, this has a strong disinflationary effect by making money more scarce. 100% of past samples when money supply fell by 2% or more were associated with severe recessions. Maybe this time is different or maybe the data are too old and irrelevant, but the current dynamic of fast-rising rates plus contracting money supply has not been seen since the 1930's so they are the only data we have about the impact of a shrinking M2. I don't think the theoretical basis for thinking a shrinking money supply is disinflationary has ever changed. Whether gold standard or fiat, with or without the FDIC or SEC, in a high-tech or a low-tech era, a falling supply of money makes money more valuable than it would otherwise be.

5) Unemployment: I'm kind of an outlier. I see sub-4% unemployment as being in the recession danger zone because it is very difficult for businesses to grow when there are so few employees available. On the net, one business's growth from poaching employees is another business's shrinkage from losing employees. With organic growth becoming more difficult, net economic growth must come from productivity gains and, in nominal terms, from inflation. Productivity becomes harder to manage when one must poach employees, offering them promotions or raises which may not be supported by their capabilities (the old Peter Principle). In the past 40 years, unemployment has only gone under 4% two times: once in April 2000 near the top of that economic cycle, and again from late 2018 until the COVID recession. In each case, a recession was less than 2 years away. As of now, unemployment has been below 4% for about a year and a half. All of the past four recessions have been preceded by the unemployment rate hitting 5.0% or lower. Thus I see a very low unemployment rate as a measurement of the economic cycle nearing its peak and being at risk of running out of steam.

Back in April 2022, I spelled out an initial list of metrics to predict what inflation will do next (back then the focus was on inflation, but some months ago the thread's focus switched to recession). Various people have suggested more metrics since then, but from that original list there are a couple of metrics worth mentioning:

Inventories went up much faster than the trend in 2021-2022 and now inventory growth has flatlined. This was of course accompanied by a collapse in manufacturing orders and a falling trade deficit. Inventories affect inflation because retailers/wholesalers who are holding too much inventory tend to mark down prices to clear it out. They are also more vulnerable to a downturn because they can get stuck financing a bunch of inventory nobody wants to buy, and if demand goes down they might have to clearance price the inventory to move it. In the meantime, the lack of new orders from inventory-packed wholesalers and retailers affects the entire downstream supply chain.

The personal savings rate has remained low, but shows steady growth, increasing from 3.4% in May 2022 to 4.6% in May 2023. An increasing savings trend is disinflationary and may reflect a long-term pessimistic trend in the Consumer Confidence Index or the increase in YoY real earnings.

Government spending as a percentage of GDP has fallen dramatically, going from almost 48% of GDP in 2020 to 37% in 2022. In 2023, government spending as a percentage of GDP is forecast to be around 36%, in line with pre-pandemic norms. Shrinkage in the government's contribution to GDP did not result in recession in 2021-2022 because private sector growth more than made up for it. Still, the >$1T reduction in nominal federal spending from 2020 to 2022 contributed to keeping GDP growth low in 2022. 2023 is shaping up to be a spendy year, so that's an anti-recessionary signal. The $1.2T Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, which was passed in November 2022, may have been the spark for the recent stock rally, as it is fiscal stimulus. Resolution of the debt ceiling issue without major cuts to fiscal stimulus accelerated the rally in to June.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Summarizing recession indicators is probably a good direction for the discussion to go in.  From an investment perspective, I need to decide when recession is most likely to occur, to prepare for that possibility.

I think adding to your list requires dipping into alternative measures.  From what I can tell, "gross domestic income" (GDI) is a trailing indicator - signaling recession after it occurs.  It may dip negative without recession, but staying negative seems to be a stronger signal.

I believe GDI and GDP are used together to determine if a recession has already ocurred.  I don't know what goes into "NBEA" and "SBEA" measures, but they differ in showing 0 or 1 quarters of a negative GDI + GDP average (in real terms).
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PE0000091Q156NBEA
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PB0000091Q225SBEA

The SBEA measure shows strongly negative real GDI :
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A261RL1Q225SBEA

NBEA shows a slightly negative real GDI :
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A261RO1Q156NBEA

Since I didn't see real GDI mentioned elsewhere, I went searching for an economist who mentioned it.  I found some articles about David Rosenberg views, who was previously Chief Economist at Merrill Lynch.  He is currently a research analyst for his own firm, so be warned that for him, attention is profitable.  He may be taking advantage of conditions to get attention, rather than aiming for an accurate overall summary of recession chances.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/whole-country-takes-pay-cut-173925398.html

His Twitter feed counters the strong consumer narrative by citing "same store sales" declining.  He also points to negative PMI data (industrials).
https://twitter.com/EconguyRosie

Radagast

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(Russia ->USSR; Germany went from empire to republic; Austro-Hungary fractured into various countries, such as Turkey).
I just need to pedantically note that Turkey was never part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Although if you meet someone from the former Ottoman or Austro-Hungarian Empires, they might not think it is so pedantic.

Zamboni

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I appreciate all of the various analyses in this thread.

Larry Summers certainly does not always know what he is talking about. Even though I try very hard to separate people's various opinions in ways that allow me to agree with them about some things and disagree with them about others, it's pretty easy for me to dismiss his opinions altogether at this point just based upon our completely misaligned moral compasses. When someone like him is pumping an "the economy is strong!" message, it just makes me want to duck and run for cover from a looming equities decline.

I'm more inclined to align with Rosenberg's opinion at this time. P/E is indeed terrible, and the megacaps are the only thing holding up the S&P right now. Almost all the other stocks are losers right now. The top 5 have a huge portion of the index at this time, historically a disproportionate share by a large margin. If any of the top 5 falter, or even if one or two just go down for irrational reasons, then look out below.

I've also been following the housing market very closely. I took somewhat of a gamble and sold my primary residence to pull out the equity for a huge profit and because I'm looking for a relocation in the next few years. At least in the short term that is looking like a very, very good call in my local market. I'm also looking closely at other markets as I'm planning a RE move. Those markets have been declining even faster, and nearly nothing is selling in those areas. There's no bottom in sight as far as I can tell.

I'm still holding some equities for a long position, of course, but pattern analysis is my bread and butter and I'm going to take some profits and stock up on my dry powder earning 5-5.5% at this time. 5.5% safe earnings on a million dollars is $55,000 a year cash flow, after all, which is nothing to sneeze at and beats inflation at this time.

EscapeVelocity2020

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I wonder if the Fed really has as much command and control over the economy as they think they have.  I mean sure, they can crash the economy if they want to over QT and shock and awe rate hike...  but they seem unable to actually slow down this record low unemployment, surging stock market, and smouldering but ready to reignite inflation...  Home prices, food, and healthcare inflation are still awfully painful.  We are lucky that wages aren't going up - which is shocking given the labor shortages - but consumer spending is starting to slow as a result.

I miss the 'good old days' when Greenspan said the exuberance was irrational and actually brought the economy to heel - even if it did crush my portfolio for a while.  Prices remained low, employment was still fine, and I got great opportunities to buy stocks on sale...  Not feeling like stocks have gone on sale much at all this time around, just short blips of reasonable valuation before taking off again.  Still can't believe AAPL is worth $3T!  And it still moves up and down 5% in a day!!  Those are some unfathomable numbers.

BicycleB

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(Russia ->USSR; Germany went from empire to republic; Austro-Hungary fractured into various countries, such as Turkey).
I just need to pedantically note that Turkey was never part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Although if you meet someone from the former Ottoman or Austro-Hungarian Empires, they might not think it is so pedantic.

Whoops, sorry. Yes, what became Turkey was part of Ottoman Empire, not Austria-Hungary.

elysianfields

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I wonder if the Fed really has as much command and control over the economy as they think they have.  I mean sure, they can crash the economy if they want to over QT and shock and awe rate hike...  but they seem unable to actually slow down this record low unemployment, surging stock market, and smouldering but ready to reignite inflation...  Home prices, food, and healthcare inflation are still awfully painful.  We are lucky that wages aren't going up - which is shocking given the labor shortages - but consumer spending is starting to slow as a result.

I miss the 'good old days' when Greenspan said the exuberance was irrational and actually brought the economy to heel - even if it did crush my portfolio for a while.  Prices remained low, employment was still fine, and I got great opportunities to buy stocks on sale...  Not feeling like stocks have gone on sale much at all this time around, just short blips of reasonable valuation before taking off again.  Still can't believe AAPL is worth $3T!  And it still moves up and down 5% in a day!!  Those are some unfathomable numbers.

Remember that interest rate hikes serve as very blunt instruments, and it takes time (opinions vary on 12-18 months) for their effects to work their way through the economy.  The Fed also is trying to change people's expectations by the way they talk about the economy & interest rates, at times it appears that traders aren't listening.

Furthermore, interest rate hikes take place within a certain context, for example, housing.  Usually home building and housing are heavily impacted by rising interest rates, but we had a low supply of housing before the Fed started raising rates, so housing starts are increasing despite higher rates.

ChpBstrd

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From what I can tell, "gross domestic income" (GDI) is a trailing indicator - signaling recession after it occurs.  It may dip negative without recession, but staying negative seems to be a stronger signal.

I believe GDI and GDP are used together to determine if a recession has already ocurred.  I don't know what goes into "NBEA" and "SBEA" measures, but they differ in showing 0 or 1 quarters of a negative GDI + GDP average (in real terms).
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PE0000091Q156NBEA
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PB0000091Q225SBEA

The SBEA measure shows strongly negative real GDI :
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A261RL1Q225SBEA

NBEA shows a slightly negative real GDI :
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A261RO1Q156NBEA

Since I didn't see real GDI mentioned elsewhere, I went searching for an economist who mentioned it.  I found some articles about David Rosenberg views, who was previously Chief Economist at Merrill Lynch.  He is currently a research analyst for his own firm, so be warned that for him, attention is profitable.  He may be taking advantage of conditions to get attention, rather than aiming for an accurate overall summary of recession chances.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/whole-country-takes-pay-cut-173925398.html

His Twitter feed counters the strong consumer narrative by citing "same store sales" declining.  He also points to negative PMI data (industrials).
https://twitter.com/EconguyRosie
Thanks for bringing up GDP and GDI. Somehow in all this recession forecasting it had slipped past my attention that Real GDI has already been negative for two quarters. In "% change from previous year" terms, Real GDI has been negative since 2021, and either way you display it I think we're looking at economic growth falling below inflation - the "national pay cut" Rosenberg is talking about. I suspect this explains why consumer sentiment is so gloomy despite most of the corporate and macro numbers seeming to reflect a strong economy. From consumers' perspectives, they're able to buy less stuff now than in the past.

According to the BEA's methodology appendix,
Quote
"Gross domestic income (GDI) is equal to the sum of compensation of employees, taxes on production and imports less subsidies, net operating surplus, and consumption of fixed capital. In theory GDI should equal GDP, but in practice, they differ because their components are estimated using largely independent and less-than-perfect source data; this difference is termed the “statistical discrepancy. The difference between the NIPA measure of production that is derived as the sum of final expenditures (gross domestic product) and its counterpart measure that is derived as the sum of the costs incurred and the incomes earned in production (gross domestic income). The statistical discrepancy arises from the independent estimation of the two measures using different source data and methods. It is recorded in the NIPAs as an “income” component that reconciles the income side with the product side of the accounts.”
Quote
Gross domestic product (GDP) is the market value
of the final goods and services produced by labor and property in the United States. GDP is equal to the sum of personal consumption expenditures, gross private domestic investment, net exports of goods and services, and government consumption expenditures and gross investment. GDP is also equal to the sum of value added by industry across all industries.

I cannot see any pattern in the statistical discrepancy between GDP and GDI that might be connected to recessions. I guess by using the average of both measurements, one can expect to obtain a picture of the economy that is less affected by the methodological details of either measure. 


I wonder if the Fed really has as much command and control over the economy as they think they have.  I mean sure, they can crash the economy if they want to over QT and shock and awe rate hike...  but they seem unable to actually slow down this record low unemployment, surging stock market, and smouldering but ready to reignite inflation...  Home prices, food, and healthcare inflation are still awfully painful.  We are lucky that wages aren't going up - which is shocking given the labor shortages - but consumer spending is starting to slow as a result.
What's a reasonable timeframe to expect results? The FFR has only been greater than CPI since April 2023 so one could say we just now started to restrict the economy with interest rates. I'd expect results at a minimum of 6 months after the change in policy.


I think QT must account for the decline in inflation between June 2022 and March 2023, a period during which interest rates were technically stimulative (i.e. under the rate of inflation). One reason to be excited (or alarmed if that's your disposition) about QE/QT as an economic technology is the prospect that we can now stamp out inflation without stamping out economic activity. Consumers and businesses feel the sting of high interest rates but they don't seem to notice QT working in the background to prop up the value of currency. We're now talking about a peak FFR of maybe 5.5% defeating an inflationary cycle that peaked at a CPI of 8.9% and that was supposed to be impossible according to the old models that didn't account for QE/QT. Had QE/QT never been invented, we might be aiming for 10% interest rates by now amid a late-1970's malaise. 

That said, I suspect QE/QT props up the value of assets. QE becomes the infamous "Fed put", snuffing out even severe recessions like 2020 before they get too bad, and QT means we don't have to worry about interest rates or inflation getting to Paul Volker levels ever again. Thus, investors are insured against a severe recession PLUS they're insured against the discount rate on their future cash flows getting too high while their companies lose too much money to interest payments. Corporations, investors, and consumers can take on leverage more confidently, with the assurance that their interest rates can't get too high and the next recession can't get too bad. New types of QE, like the recent bank loan program / bailout, promise to be able to target whichever industry is having trouble even if the Fed is simultaneously hitting inflation with QT. QT is effectively a Fed put on bonds too.

Mortgage rates may have risen a lot in 2022, but they were under the rate of inflation for most of the year, so it made sense for consumers to take on debts that were inflating away faster than the interest rate. The tables turned in January 2023 and now mortgage rates are ~2% greater than CPI, which is historically more normal. This should mark the end of the post-COVID home buying mania, because rates aren't stimulative any more.


Longer-term, inflation breakevens just over 2% make more sense when considering we are bowling with the bumpers on. Economists' projections of 2% inflation by October 2023 and sub-1% inflation by February, in conjunction with their recession forecasts declining from >70% last August to maybe 50/50 today could reflect a shift in mindset. If QT can knock down inflation with peak interest rates only hitting 5.25% or so, then there's not necessarily a surefire case for a recession being necessary to stop inflation anymore. We could be looking at rate cuts much sooner than would otherwise be prudent. If inflation remained persistent and economic conditions were weakening, we could even see a combo of QT and rate cuts. This is what markets are currently so optimistic about, IMO. A 6-7% FFR seems to be off the table for now.

That said, I don't think the FOMC understands the power of QE/QT yet, and I still think it's likely they overshoot and drive inflation to zero or below even if we've seen our last rate hike and even if QT ends by November or December. Low inflation will hurt the people and businesses locked into debts at interest rates of 5-7% - the inverse of the stimulative 2021-2022 years. The reduction in supply and demand, plus the urge to deleverage rather than consume or invest, might cause a recession in itself, but such a recession scenario might be a year away.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 07:17:53 AM by ChpBstrd »

ChpBstrd

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To summarize the thought process posted earlier, I'm torn between two threads of thought:

1) We're entering a classic setup for a money supply crunch and perhaps an asset bubble burst as the Fed is likely to continue sucking currency out of the economy at astronomical rates until trailing-twelve-month PCE, if not Core PCE, approaches the 2% line. By the time the Fed reverses course, they will have overdone it due to not understanding the power of QT and we will already be in a deflationary trap. The game from now on involves not fighting the Fed and playing the QT/QE cycles as the Fed swerves from one extreme of monetary policy to the other, like a teenage driver going too fast on a gravel road. Rather than abolishing the business cycle, the Fed's actions will exacerbate it - at least through the next cycle. In the long run it is possible QE/QT replace interest rates as the Fed's primary policy tool, but first we will need a theoretical framework for setting the proper scale of QE/QT - a next generation Taylor Rule that incorporates money supply. The Fed's actions today are more akin to previous eras when they were operating without what would in hindsight be identified as the correct paradigms - the Great Depression, and the whiplash policy moves of the 1970s.

2) The Fed put (QE if a recession happens) and the Fed call (QT prevents too-high rates or inflation) mean that the risk profile of the stock market is lower now than it has ever been in history. Wipeouts like the 1930s and 1970s are now only possible if the government fails to or refuses to use these new tools at their disposal. Recessions are likely to be mild from now on - lasting just long enough for the Fed to react with QE. Historically high valuations such as the S&P500's PE ratio of 25.75 and CAPE of 31 are justified because there is now little risk of the sort of multi-year recessions or stubborn inflationary cycles we experienced in the past. Such valuations also make sense under the assumption that earnings growth will not be interrupted as severely or for as long as in past economic cycles. Interest rates will be range-bound in the future, and the economic cycle in general will be muted. The best investments will thus be growth stocks, and this is why the biggest tech stocks are rallying. Not only are they TBTF, but they exist within an economy that is TBTF. Their solid margins amid a relatively stabilized economic regime will result in rapid compounding. Seen in this light, we're already experiencing a soft landing, which is the flipside of the soft landing we had after COVID. If it's all soft landings from here, one might as well invest aggressively. Even if the Fed overdoes it, they'll just switch to QE and we'll have another bull market for a year or two.

Which way of thinking is correct? The facts can be interpreted either way, depending on whether you believe fast-rising rates must always lead to recession or if you believe this time is different - which it is in some ways.

Zamboni

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1 . . .  The game from now on involves not fighting the Fed and playing the QT/QE cycles as the Fed swerves from one extreme of monetary policy to the other, like a teenage driver going too fast on a gravel road. Rather than abolishing the business cycle, the Fed's actions will exacerbate it - at least through the next cycle.

2 . . . Recessions are likely to be mild from now on . . .

Which way of thinking is correct? The facts can be interpreted either way, depending on whether you believe fast-rising rates must always lead to recession or if you believe this time is different - which it is in some ways.

This is a fantastic way of phrasing it. I'm betting on #1 being the best way of viewing it for now, this cycle, and hoping #2 becomes correct in the future. I agree with you that everything that has happened since 2008 has been part of their big experiment. Eventually the Fed should figure it out. They'll probably figure it out just in time for a new Chair to decide he has a new idea that will completely mess everything up again, but that's the little cynical devil on my shoulder urging me to type.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Covid spiked unemployment to 15%, the worst in 75 years.  With rates already low, QE made sense to save the U.S. economy.  I claim that situation does not apply now, when the Fed is willing to cause recession to bring inflation down.

If by "QE" you plan to ignore open market actions from prior eras, then you're left with only 2008 and 2020 as data points.  And 2008 wasn't a mild recession.  From what I see, the Fed is not offering to make all recessions mild.

Zamboni

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Happy 4th of July, Americans. It's Independence Day.

I'm pretty simple minded, but my assumption is that for capitalism to work, there has to be market competition, so companies led by leaders who have made subpar choices have to be allowed to fail as a normal matter of the course in our economy. It looks like the government is letting almost everyone off the hook on paying back the PPP "loans," which irks me because it rewards the debtors at the expense of the fiscally responsible business owners, even in the same industries, who had the financial padding to not need the subsidy from the government. Independence Day. Not Dependence Day.

EscapeVelocity2020

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...
If by "QE" you plan to ignore open market actions from prior eras, then you're left with only 2008 and 2020 as data points.  And 2008 wasn't a mild recession.  From what I see, the Fed is not offering to make all recessions mild.

I'd love to have some summary of what open market actions the Fed did back during eras like the S&L crisis and the Asian currency crisis...  I enjoy that there is a running tab now on the Fed's balance sheet, but it reminds me just how much manipulation has been interjected in to the system.  For markets that work on marginal buyers, an extra $8T of money that could technically be sucked back out of the system is significant.

ChpBstrd

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1 . . .  The game from now on involves not fighting the Fed and playing the QT/QE cycles as the Fed swerves from one extreme of monetary policy to the other, like a teenage driver going too fast on a gravel road. Rather than abolishing the business cycle, the Fed's actions will exacerbate it - at least through the next cycle.

2 . . . Recessions are likely to be mild from now on . . .

Which way of thinking is correct? The facts can be interpreted either way, depending on whether you believe fast-rising rates must always lead to recession or if you believe this time is different - which it is in some ways.

This is a fantastic way of phrasing it. I'm betting on #1 being the best way of viewing it for now, this cycle, and hoping #2 becomes correct in the future. I agree with you that everything that has happened since 2008 has been part of their big experiment. Eventually the Fed should figure it out. They'll probably figure it out just in time for a new Chair to decide he has a new idea that will completely mess everything up again, but that's the little cynical devil on my shoulder urging me to type.
Or maybe we perfect the art of inflation control through QE/QT just in time for the digital dollar to arrive. Then all the monthly and quarterly data points become real-time, an AI watches every dollar and spots dangerous trends before they ever reach crisis levels, economic control reaches precision levels, and we are confronted with the hard questions:

How much government intervention and control is desirable before we've backed ourselves into techno-communism? If we can prevent every recession, should we, or are recessions necessary to clear the way for the next generation of innovative businesses? Can the government eliminate systemic risk, or only transfer the risk to itself? How does one value assets in a recession-proof economy versus peripheral economies that still have recessions? At what point is a worker better off as they suffer a layoff in a recession than they would be in a world where it is impossible to transact for anything without the government knowing about it? Now that jobs are plentiful and recessions rarer, will voters start to demand pump-and-dump investment priorities (e.g. crypto deregulation, tax cuts) rather than more jobs or workplace protections?

Zamboni

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But I'd want to learn it from an expert, and that Twitter feed is run by someone who "started in real estate in 2011".

I've been thinking about this, and wishing my grandfather was still alive (an economist who lived through the depression and then because a govt expert on the German and Soviet economies.)

I think the closest I can come right now to my grandfather is Ray Dalio, and I mean this as a compliment. He thought the pandemic was the beginning of a major depression in the long-term economic cycle, he thought it would play out over many years, and it seems pretty clear from recent interviews that he probably still thinks that. He studies history diligently. He studies our economy diligently. He's richer than I can ever imagine and giving a huge amount of that wealth away. He's concerned about China, and I'm concerned about that country too, especially since we are letting them buy a bunch of our farmland and other real estate. I think he's trustworthy and coming from a place of really wanting to educate the next generation, not spur some sort of market movement to benefit himself like some of the talking heads. I don't agree with every opinion he's ever had or everything he says, but I'm paying an awful lot of attention.

MustacheAndaHalf

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I view Ray Dalio as top tier investor.  My main takeaway from his early June interview is that I should study "stagflation", which he mentions about 7.5 minutes in.  I think the context may be useful, so here's the minute before that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6pFuTJDLQo&t=398s

Another point I take away - what if the situation we're in right now is exactly the same in 2024-2025?  The hard landing camp would be wrong to expect a crash, and the soft landing camp would be wrong to expect inflation falls back to target.

ChpBstrd

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IDK. Inflation is falling at half a percent per month, which would be considered a disinflationary collapse in any context other than the one we're in. E.g. if we went from a long-term range-bound 2% to 0% in just four months, people would freak and think an economic emergency was underway. Yet that's been roughly the rate of decline for the past 11 months. To me it seems weird to worry about inflation or stagflation in such a context, but hey, I'm also worrying about recession after many months of solid economic growth data. There's something big out there pushing down inflation, and it goes beyond interest rates.

I think we'll plunge through 2% later this year, probably before the FOMC has thought out its next move. As the latest minutes show, they're still focused on fighting the last war - inflation - and not even thinking ahead to where the current trend leaves us by the end of this year. We'll soon have an "oh shit" moment when we hit the 2% target and realize the established policies are going to keep sinking inflation. But how big a problem would that be?

One question that I'm pondering is whether an economy can go into deflation - negative inflation rates - without going into recession. I think it's possible in theory, especially if we think through the consequences or lack thereof of QT. The scenario would need inflation expectations to remain high or else people and companies would stop borrowing and buying things. E.g. would you take out a car loan or take on business debt in a deflationary environment? Maybe only if you believed the trend was about to reverse. 

But to set inflationary expectations in a deflationary reality, the FOMC would have to promise massive rate cuts. This may be the status in the first half of 2024: Near-zero inflation and a rate cut campaign just starting. Then of course if that rate cutting campaign goes too far, we actually do get inflation again, and we relive the policy roller coaster of the 1970s.
------------------
Dalio has some very interesting ideas and has done quite well for himself. However, his Big Cycles thesis (1) claims causation when all we have are correlations, (2) is somewhat unfalsifiable, because the "cycles" are said to take decades and any predictive failure can be met with "just wait, it'll come", and (3) uses inconsistent and spotty data from economies that predate modern industrial capitalism, activist central banks, modern trade structures and data collection standards, mass media, and nuclear weapons - just to name a few things which should alter the calculations.

Dalio's macroeconomic views are not necessarily validated by the success of Bridgewater, a firm with 1,500 employees who presumably do things and have an effect. Bridgewater's success is a reason to read Dalio's ideas on radical honesty and openness in team management. The firm's success may also have a lot to do with finding clients willing to pay for hedge fund services, which is arguably more important than the owner's worldview. It's a leap to say Dalio made lots of money in the hedge fund business, so therefore the US dollar is going to collapse just like the British pound.

MustacheAndaHalf

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IDK. Inflation is falling at half a percent per month, which would be considered a disinflationary collapse in any context other than the one we're in. E.g. if we went from a long-term range-bound 2% to 0% in just four months, people would freak and think an economic emergency was underway. Yet that's been roughly the rate of decline for the past 11 months.
...
I think we'll plunge through 2% later this year, probably before the FOMC has thought out its next move. As the latest minutes show, they're still focused on fighting the last war - inflation - and not even thinking ahead to where the current trend leaves us by the end of this year. We'll soon have an "oh shit" moment when we hit the 2% target and realize the established policies are going to keep sinking inflation. But how big a problem would that be?
You mentioned "we'll plunge through 2% later this year", which sounds like a prediction for CPI-U.  It would be even better if you treat this like a bet.  What odds would convince you to bet against your own thesis?

My response is this graph:



You can point to CPI (blue) and claim inflation has fallen in half, from over 8% to now 4%.  But look at Core CPI (red), which hasn't moved up or down more than 1% in the past 12 months, hovering above 5%.  In my view, excluding energy inflation paints a dramatically different picture.

Doesn't the Fed care more about core (or super core) inflation?

Zamboni

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^They care more about that red line for the Core CPI. The one that seems to not be responding the way they expected, which is a problem for them.

MustacheAndaHalf

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I find it annoying that "average salary" numbers are given much weight, given that lumps billionaire salaries with everyone else's.  Median salary numbers are valuable.

Maybe I'm extrapolating too far, but "median CPI" might be useful as well.  It weakens my view by showing that median CPI inflation has dropped quickly in the past month or so (with a lot of volatility)


On that same theme, here is a link showing "median PCE inflation".  From July 2022 until March 2022, median PCE was stuck near 5.8%.  Then in April 2022, it fell to 5.4% ... after which their graph ends.  Nov 2022 until Apr 2023, "core PCE" has been stuck at 4.6%, which I believe is the Fed's preferred measure.
https://www.clevelandfed.org/en/indicators-and-data/median-pce-inflation

A couple non-Fed websites show core PCE still at 4.6% for May 2023.  I think we'll see more Fed rate hikes of 0.25% until core PCE gets unstuck.

FIPurpose

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Economist projections came in to put June's CPI at 3.1%.

Unless July proves to be deflationary, then I think we'll see a small bounce up next month. And hang flat around 3.5% for the next quarter. It's kind of a perfect storm number that's certainly not run away inflation, but still high enough for the fed to continue pushing their forecasted rate increases.


MustacheAndaHalf

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I find most people who study economics don't settle for topline CPI.  Twitter lead me to a short CNBC interview with a different perspective, and the professor being interviewed talked about CPI without mentioning core CPI.  Turns out he's a professor of Business, not Economics, so all I got from the interview was irritation.  If someone claims to be an expert, watch if they cite "core CPI" or plain CPI (not saying we're experts here, just an observation).

MustacheAndaHalf

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I saw a news article about bankruptcy filings being up... but they only compared to data from 12 months earlier.  The media got me that time - I bought their "+50% bankruptcies!" alarm.  The problem?  Up +50% from the lowest rate of bankruptcies in 20 years.  Not newsworthy, yet.

If bankruptcies doubled, that would only match the 2015-2019 average.  Going up +50% is just the start of getting back to normal.  Until the rate of bankruptcies exceeds the average year, it isn't much of a signal.  But part of the trick is knowing what to ignore.


https://www.debt.org/bankruptcy/statistics/

ChpBstrd

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The issue with focusing on Core CPI or Core PCE is that these measures are very heavily weighting housing. We already know leases are still catching up with the wild home price appreciation of 2021-22, and that home affordability is at or near all-time lows. But what does an emphasis on housing inflation tell us about whether interest rates should go up some more, or if QT should continue?

As shown below, housing CPI peaked in January 2023, several months later than all-items CPI which peaked in June 2022 or core CPI which peaked in September 2022. Maybe housing CPI is just lagging behind the other trends? The trajectory of housing CPI since February seems to match the all-items disinflation.


So I'd be concerned if the FOMC is becoming more focused on "Core" metrics. If so, then their preferred metric would heavily weigh one of the fastest growing inflation categories (+8% YoY as of May 2023), which peaked half a year later than all-items inflation. It risks looking like cherry picking plus yesterday's news. Is it the flipside of the error Arthur Burns made when he invented Core CPI as a way to exclude the fastest-inflating categories of his time and justify rate cuts?

Transportation services is the other biggie in Core CPI, up +10.2% YoY as of May 2023. But we know this doesn't reflect a problem with monetary policy, it reflects a continued shortage of used cars after the 2020 - early 2022 supply chain problems reduced output of new cars. Those problems have since been resolved and then some, illustrating the reason policymakers should think more about broader measures than narrower ones. A year ago everyone was worried about gasoline prices, but then gas prices went down -20.4%.

There's always a story going on with some category of inflation or another. The FOMC would be mistaken to basically say, "we're going to hike rates until trailing twelve month housing inflation is around 2%" because the whole rest of the economy is likely to be in deflation before that trailing average of a trailing indicator gets there.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Housing is a large component regardless of using CPI or core CPI.  But energy is a very small, and very volatile component.  Look at the Bureau of Labor website, which shows a few selected categories of CPI inflation over 12 months (see image):
https://www.bls.gov/cpi/

Notice several positive amounts: food, all items, all items less food & energy.  The significant negative inflation is from one place: energy.

I doubt that CPI will drop by half again (8% to 4%, then 4% to 2%), because that drop was fueled by negative energy inflation.  It still could in a recession, when all prices drop.

A more likely prediction excludes energy, and extrapolates the 6% to 5% drop over the past 12 months.  It is probably more accurate to estimate core CPI at 4% in a year, than expect CPI at 2% in a year (ignoring recession risk).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 03:40:45 PM by MustacheAndaHalf »

ChpBstrd

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Looking aside from US data for a moment, there are a few interesting developments.

1) Germany has gone into recession according to the 2-quarters-GDP guideline. GDP in Europe's largest economy shrank in 4Q2022 and 1Q2023. Inflation was 7.2% in April. German unemployment has only risen modestly so far.
  • Eurozone interest rates are only 4%, so maybe the plan to let the US rate-hike the inflation away while protecting Eurozone economies didn't work.
  • The combo of high inflation and low interest rates is good for the heavily indebted Southern Eurozone members, so maybe the Eurozone comes out stronger in the end, at least in terms of credit worthiness.
  • The EU now faces the unsavory choice of either hiking rates amid member state recessions or letting inflation run amok. The only countries which seem to have successfully extinguished inflation did so with higher rates and in some cases QT.

2) The UK has so far avoided recession and holds an unemployment rate of 4%. Inflation was 8.7% and core inflation was 7.1% in May. Pay rose at 7.3%. UK interest rates are finally catching up to the US - their overnight rate is 5%. The pound is up 7.6% in a year against the USD, now that the BoE has gotten serious about rate hikes and is likely to exceed 6% soon.
  • A meme of the moment is that UK savers are earning more interest in the aggregate than UK homeowners are paying extra on their mortgages, in aggregate, because only a fraction of variable rate mortgages have reset so far.

3) China is suffering from a serious decline in growth and possible deflation. Chinese inflation has hit zero, and their Producer Price Index fell to -5.4%. Expectations are that China will be cutting their 3.55% interest rate to head off a deflationary spiral. The yuan has lost about 7% of its value versus the dollar over the past year.
  • If prices for Chinese imports are falling, that may explain some of the rapid decline in US inflation.
  • Is China about to follow the Japanese lost decade template from the early 90s? Ingredients include previous decades of rapid growth, crashing real estate investments and bad loans among interconnected power centers, weak domestic demand, rising tariffs from the US, and deflation.
  • Would Chinese deflation affect US inflation by (a) discouraging investment into Chinese manufacturing, thereby making imports to the US more scarce and expensive, (b) increasing demand for an appreciating yuan rather than a depreciating USD, thereby making exports more scarce and expensive, or (c) increasing the percentage of goods produced in China that are sent for export rather than consumed domestically, thereby making exports more plentiful and cheaper?

4) Japan's economy seems to be doing well, with improving sentiment and 2.7% annualized GDP growth in the first quarter. Unemployment is 2.6%, inflation is 3.2%, and interest rates are -0.1%. Contrary to the US policymakers, Japan's central bank seems to be signalling "looser for longer".
  • Can anyone imagine Japan with an inflation problem? Inflation has exceeded their 2% target for 2 years and yet the BoJ is holding firm on ZIRP. Conventional theory says the economy should overheat and inflation should go higher.
  • The yen took a major beating against the dollar in 2022. Over the past two years the yen is down over 21% versus the USD.
  • Did Warren Buffet invest in Japan because of its unique pro-inflationary, pro-growth policy stance, at a time when the West and India were both focused on slowing their economies and inflation? If so, "don't fight the fed" may have gone international.


5) India's inflation rate is rapidly falling, and was 4.25% in May. A 6.5% interest rate means savers can obtain 225bp of real return risk-free. No wonder inflation has fallen. GDP growth was 7% last year, and 9% in 2021. Despite arguably being more aggressive with positive real interest rates than the US federal reserve, and despite an Indian version of QT to support the currency, India's rupee is down -3.7% against the dollar over the past year.

Draw your own conclusions, but what this survey illustrated to me is that there's no worldwide pattern. There are 4 distinct stories going on at the same time: (1) India, the UK, and the US either have achieved or are striving for positive real rates, are experiencing disinflation, and are enjoying growth despite the higher rates. Germany and China are experiencing economic weakness, but in dramatically different inflation contexts. (2) In Germany, unaddressed inflation seems to have crushed consumption and there isn't the same income boost from savers that is claimed to exist in the UK because rates are much lower. (3) In China, a classic deflationary spiral seems to be playing out, and China's pending rate cuts seem like something from another era to European and US spectators. (4) Japan seems to exist on its own little planet, happy to see inflation growing above target and dedicated to long-term negative real rates that punish depositors.

The near future looks like rates close to zero in China and Japan. Rate cuts are possible in the US, UK, and India after a resolution of inflation troubles and/or panic about slowing growth. The ECB faces a tough choice, but is likely to continue hiking rates - now in the hope that foreign growth rather than lower rates will bail them out of recession. Signs of such a turnaround include a May surge in German manufacturing orders.

My interpretation of this context is that Japan looks good. The Japan stock exchange traded fund EWJ is up 13.86% YTD, and with a forward PE < 15 it is still a good value compared to the S&P500 (PE=25.7). Plus the Japanese market exists in a context of stimulative policy whereas the US market exists in a context of restrictive policy. The Japanese central bank is likely to continue letting inflation and growth run hotter than targeted on the pretext that parts of Europe and the US are going into recession. Then, Western rate cuts will contribute to the yen's value, and the value of Japanese assets which earn yen.

I don't expect Japan's neighbor and trading partner China to fall into a deflationary black hole, but I do think the US, UK, and EU could fall into recession and harm Japan's export market. EWJ investors will need to closely watch Japanese inflation, because if Japan starts acting like a normal economy their low rates could lead to high inflation. If the BoJ has to raise rates aggressively and create banking instability, then 2024-2025 in Japan could look a lot like what happened in the US markets in 2021-2022.

FIPurpose

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June data is in

CPI: 3% (beating expectations)
Core CPI: 4.8% (down from 5.3% last month)

The article I read mentioned the fed still signaling that their planning to raise the rate another quarter point. But now both CPI and core CPI are both under the federal rate. So I would assume that the fed would hold flat again this month?

MustacheAndaHalf

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When I search for "Fed preferred measure of inflation", the result is "core PCE inflation".  Market expectations before the CPI print were 95% chance of Fed Funds Rate going up 0.25% at the July FOMC meeting. 

2023 YTD "core PCE" has varied between 4.6% and 4.7% every month (Jan to June 2023).  I couldn't find a Fed data source with percentages that includes the latest June data, so:
https://www.investing.com/economic-calendar/core-pce-price-index-905

According to St Louis Fed data, June "core CPI" was actually 4.86%, which I would round up to 4.9% - but maybe I'm missing a seasonal adjustment.  Back in June 2022, "core CPI" was 5.88% or 5.9%, so I count a 1% drop over 13 months.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=rocU

reeshau

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June PCE comes out July 28, the day after the FOMC meeting.  With it that close, I do wonder if they get to see preliminary data of some sort.

ChpBstrd

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The stock market is rallying on the cool inflation reading, but the CME FedWatch tool calculates the odds of a July rate hike at 93%. Are those two markets at odds with each other or did we just reach a point where markets are convinced 5.5% will be the peak?

The second explanation is consistent with the FedWatch data: In just the past week the odds of a January rate cut to 5.25% have quickly increased and the odds of a 5.75% rate in January have quickly decreased. Lower discount rates have led analysts to buy stocks.

Historically, the next chapter has been the Fed completes some rate cuts, causing the yield curve to un-invert, before a recession. If the 2007-2009 recession is our template, we should consider how the rate hiking cycle prior to that recession ended in August 2006 at FFR=5.25%. It took 15 months after the peak for the GFC to start. In the 14 months after the August 2006 interest rate peak, markets had a burn-up of over 20%... until you-know-what happened.

With volatility in the low zone, and the upside risk of no rate cut in July possibly under-priced, now seems like a good time to lock in a very-long-duration protective put or to buy calls expiring in at least 12-16 mos. Sometime next year the opportunity to earn high yields in short-duration instruments could diminish, nudging investors back into riskier assets.

On the other hand, a key difference with 2006 is that the FOMC wasn't doing massive QT in 2006. CPI fell from 3.9% to 1.4% only two months after the August 2006 peak, before partially recovering. If QT persists for some months after the July rate hike as I think it will, CPI could fall farther than that. Will markets celebrate sudden, accelerating disinflation as they did in 2006 and have so far in 2023? Will we see a commodities melt-up in 2024 like in 2007?


Mr. Green

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Considering we're just 6% from the helicopter-money fueled all-time high, expecting a huge run up on top of where we already are seems otherworldly.

ChpBstrd

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Considering we're just 6% from the helicopter-money fueled all-time high, expecting a huge run up on top of where we already are seems otherworldly.
Agreed, but I'm starting to think it always seems otherworldly.

In 2006, the S&P500 ended up with real earnings 13.8% higher than 2005. Information indicating such an outcome came trickling in, pushing up prices despite the recent series of rate hikes and the return of positive real rates. 2006 illustrates why corporate earnings growth is not a predictor of recessions.

According to Morgan Stanley in January, the S&P500 was expected to earn $228 in 2023, which would be 4.5% above 2022 earnings of $218.09. Yardeni estimates $225, a 3.2% growth rate. So we're not even expecting earnings growth as good as 2006 but have already experienced all the price appreciation of 2006 and then some.

If stocks have an earnings yield of 3.83% and an earnings growth rate of 3-4%, then earning 5.25% on short-duration treasuries sounds better than front-running the recession. I suppose the stock market rally means some investors see signs that the estimates are too low. Q1 earnings seem to have supported such a conclusion.

Maybe that's what '06 looked like too.

ChpBstrd

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A couple of influential voices have come out against my main prediction and the FFR futures market's position that inflation is a problem of the past, and that rapid disinflation could prompt rate cuts early next year.

Bridgewater's co-chief-investment-officer Bob Prince described the environment as follows:
Quote
Inflation has come down but it is still too high, and it is probably going to level out where it is — we’re likely to be stuck around this level of inflation,” Prince said. “The big risk right now is that you get a bounce in energy prices when wages are still strong”, which could drive a rebound in inflation, he added.
Quote
The Fed will have to keep rates higher for longer because its inflation fight is stymied in part by a strong labour market, said Prince. Fiscal and monetary programmes in the early days of the Covid-19 pandemic helped build up household savings, but also tightened the labour market enough that wages rose meaningfully. That has meant that US consumers’ income has been higher, allowing them to continue absorbing price increases.

“Current levels of spending are being financed by income, not a credit expansion,” Prince said. “So inflation is really hard to bring down.”

Meanwhile BlackRock's CEO Larry Fink opined that last year's infrastructure bill, the CHIPS act, etc. will start creating jobs at a time when there is no slack in the job market, and noted that we could see an increase in energy prices.

I take these opinions seriously because they're citing big enough factors that could mitigate the impact of higher interest rates. An energy rally may seem unlikely, with oil down 17.6% YoY, but it could definitely happen. It happened in 2007 - another time when the economy overheated despite the Fed's rapid tightening.

Oil is the linchpin of the higher-for-longer / durable inflation risk scenario, but I can't think of any appealing ways to use oil as a hedge against higher-for-longer rates. USO calls or bull spreads might offset some risk of missing out on a burn-up rally for those holding a defensive allocation, but they're expensive.


ChpBstrd

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Recessions have historically begun when (1) Fed rate hikes cause (2) bank lending ratios to deteriorate, which causes (3) banks to withdraw liquidity, which causes (4) businesses and consumers to lack financing. I have been wondering lately if the Bank Term Funding Program (BTFP) is a bigger deal than it initially appears, because it short-circuits this pathway between steps 2 and 3.

Specifically, deterioration in bank ratios can be mitigated at any time with a quick loan from the Fed, against some categories of collateral at par value. Thus there is no need for banks to withdraw liquidity in fear of bank runs or regulatory action, and instead banks have incentives to aggressively replace old low-rate loans with new higher-rate loans as the earlier loans mature. Thus banks appear to be extending credit relatively easily.

The loosening of credit conditions since March is illustrated by one of economists' favorite recession predictors, the National Financial Conditions Index (NFCI). The NFCI is essentially "how easy it is to obtain loans". When the NFCI rises, it indicates tightening conditions. Recessions are common after the NFCI rises above the zero boundary. Today's NFCI is telling us we're moving toward easier credit conditions and more liquidity, and away from credit crunches and recession.


Could the BTFP derail the usual chain reaction that leads to recession? This question makes me ask "is it big enough?" and "does it address the problem?" and "will this program be more effective than the Term Auction Facility of 2007?"

Is it Big Enough?

According to the program's July 10 report to Congress, outstanding loans as of June 30 were $115.6B against $136.5B in collateral. The program had collected $1.21B in interest from the banks. As of May 31, loans were about $107.4B, collateral was about 129B, and interest received was $763M. So the BTFP is growing in scope, allowing banks to apply their assets as collateral while their low-yielding assets mature. The net result may be much larger than the program's size suggests, because the mere presence of the program allows banks to be more aggressive than they'd otherwise be. I.e. for banks that don't need the loans to stay solvent, the ability to take loans is there if needed in the future. So there's probably a multiplier effect here.

Does It Address The Problem?
The BTFP seems to address the problem of bank deposit flight due to the reduced market value of bonds and mortgages issued during the era of low interest rates. Now that banks can borrow at the full par value of these assets (i.e. beyond the actual value of the collateral) their risk of being unable to make depositors whole has largely gone away. However, we may have additional problems ahead if defaults increase or if real estate values decline. Those two possibilities are not addressed by the BTFP, and could still hit the banking system hard, because it's politically harder to justify bailouts of defaulted loans. However, if the BTFP has supplied plenty of liquidity, is it even possible for defaults to increase and RE to decline? This brings us to the next question.

Will This Program Be More Effective Than The Term Auction Facility of 2007?
Suppose it is December 2007 and you read an article about a new Term Auction Facility which in conjunction with the opening of the discount window will provide billions in loans to banks affected by mortgage issues across the US, Canada, and Europe. You glance into your crystal ball and learn that the program will eventually make several trillion dollars in loans at below-market interest rates. If you decided this was the all-clear, and represented the end of the 2007 credit crunch, you'd be very wrong.

The TAF tried to address banks' reluctance to take on the debt they would need if they were to continue extending liquidity while experiencing loan defaults. It did so by offering banks lower interest rates than the FFR, against a wide variety of collateral. Banks could take their 4.75% treasuries and borrow against them at, let's say, 4.5% depending on the outcomes of any given telephone-based auction. The BTFP, on the other hand, allows banks to borrow at the overnight rate, near the FFR, but allows banks to borrow the full par value of assets. Thus while the TAF offered banks low-rate sweeteners to free up cash to lend, the BTFP essentially repairs the damage to bank balance sheets that was caused by 500bp in rate hikes over a short period. The TAF, in hindsight, was considered to be a successful program and continued until 2010. However, even with $6.18T in 28-84 day loans issued over 3 years, it was not enough to stop the GFC. Damage from defaulted loans seemed to outrun banks' ability to borrow using their unimpaired assets as collateral. Plus, non-banks such as mortgage companies, insurance companies, shadow banking companies, and hedge funds were not protected.

I think the BTFP is a well-constructed banking intervention that significantly increases the odds of a soft landing. I suspect the numbers we've seen from the BTFP and from recent economic metrics have convinced many investors that we'll go without a recession this year, and perhaps 2024 too. That's why big tech stocks have been bid up since May. However, history says a program on the scale of the BTFP will be no match for a wave of defaults, a fall in RE values, or a rise in unemployment. The TAF of 2007 no doubt reduced the severity of the GFC, but it did not offer banks a way to recover from a sudden spike in loan defaults and it did not bail out non-banks. The TAF also failed to prevent further deterioration in the housing market, unemployment, or default rates. Thus the case for a soft landing relies on the BTFP succeeding where the TAF proved insufficient.

There are also key differences: By the December 2007 start date of the TAF, a credit crunch sparked by defaults had already begun months earlier. The NFCI was well into positive territory by December 2007 and the recession had just started. The BTFP was implemented prior to a spike in defaults, and was instead prompted by bank runs at a few banks that had an unusually high mix of treasuries and mortgage securities, plus lots of uninsured deposits. The NFCI never reached the zero line in 2023, so the BTFP was more proactive. Also, the BTFP seems to accept a wider range of collateral than is typical for the Fed's discount window, including corporate bonds, CLO's, debts from other banks, etc. Will these differences be enough to forestall another housing crisis or wave of defaults? I don't know, but it is likely the BTFP has extended our time to recession. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 12:47:00 PM by ChpBstrd »

MustacheAndaHalf

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The odds of recession seemed much better months ago - now I'm less confident.

Last year Larry Summers focused on wage growth, and mentioned "job switchers" in particular.  Their wage growth peaked in March of this year, and has headed downward since.
https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker

There's been some visible strikes like longshoreman and actors (there's a pair you don't see together often), but those are small numbers compared to the overall U.S. labor force.  Even if a potential UPS strike unfolds at the end of July, wage hikes for those workers probably won't reverse the trend seen above.

ChpBstrd

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EscapeVelocity2020

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https://www.cmegroup.com/markets/interest-rates/cme-fedwatch-tool.html?redirect=/trading/interest-rates/countdown-to-fomc.html

Currently a 99.8% probability of a 25 bps rate hike on July 26th!  Probably of more interest is that the Sept and Nov probabilities of another 25 bps hike have been trending up steadily.  PCE numbers come out on the 28th, looking stubbornly high (4.6% core PCE) and the blazing hot job market are making Jerome's statement of no rate cuts until 2025 look awfully prescient.  Not sure why the stonk market decided to try to race to new all time highs.  Very high disconnect between expectations and reality, even if we are having a long, slow, soft landing...

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!