Author Topic: How do you guys deal with FOMO  (Read 4063 times)

Retire-Canada

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2024, 08:43:15 AM »
If you were able to block out COVID and the impact on the markets I am impressed.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2024, 10:18:31 AM »
If you can manage it, checking your portfolio less frequently helps enormously.  Someone who noticed Jan 2020 and Jan 2021 was a gain didn't have to watch a 1/3rd drop in March 2020, for example.
While I agree with your sentiment in general if anyone was able to miss the COVID Crash of 2020 they were living in a cave. There some things you just can't avoid being aware of if you are not a hermit.
The past 4 years were nearly impossible to optimally navigate by anyone who was capable of reacting to dramatic events. In May 2020, at the point when the market turned upward, COVID seemed unstoppable. I applied the lesson of 2009 and asked myself if the government was doing the right things. I concluded from DJT's behavior encouraging conspiracy theories, discouraging masking, and blocking public health efforts that the government was NOT doing the right things. The trajectory looked very much like the Great Depression, so I reduced exposure near what would be the bottom.

I figured we'd probably all get COVID eventually, healthcare systems would be overrun, and the 1-2% fatality rate would rise to about 3%. But only part of that was correct, and the stimulus bill passed in Spring 2020 popped the economy right out of the gutter. Restaurants and airplanes were crowded with people spending stimulus checks in between getting sick and sometimes dying. Government misinformation worked - getting people out of their houses and out in the marketplaces working and spending. As the metrics turned around, I bought back in after missing most of the summer 2020 gains.

After the spring 2021 stimulus bill, I took a risk-on approach - deciding to ignore successive waves of new variants and steadily rising inflation. By the 3rd and 4th quarters of 2021 I was in triple-levered ETFs and made up most of the ground I ceded the year before. However I flew a little too close to the sun and was burnt badly by the 1Q2022 downturn in anticipation of higher interest rates. Then it was back to a risk-off approach as inflation and rates continued to climb. I had foreseen higher rates and wondered why the market was taking so long to react, but it's hard to change course when you're gaining $50k per week.

I stayed risk-off during the later months of 2022 and through the first months of 2023. I was at least smart enough not to buy TIPS or long-duration bonds, but I missed most of the 2023 rally with a conservative allocation. I did manage to burn myself with a small OZKAP position, buying high and selling low just as the banking crisis resolved and CRE fears failed to materialize.

I earned a large win in Q42023 with bond trades, and then pivoted back into a stock-heavy, un-leveraged AA in January, with a concentration in small and mid caps due to their compelling valuations.

So for those keeping score:
2020 - failure
2021 - success
2022 - failure
2023 - success

All this back and forth and losing large sums due to reacting just behind the curve has finally led my arrogant mind to conclude buying and holding is best. I played the react-to-the-news game the best I could and still came out way behind what I'd have if I'd only kept a risk-on attitude.

The interesting thing is to look back on those fateful 4 years and try to imagine how a person could have possibly made the right moves at the right times. What thought process would have led to optimal navigation of the turmoil?
  • A focus on the scientific facts about COVID would have led to the wrong approach, because you'd have sat out 2020 and 2021, and probably bought back in for 2022 as herd immunity was building up.
  • A focus on trailing economic metrics would have kept a person out of stocks for all of 2020 and left them in the market for the 2022 bear market.
  • A focus on politics would have been off, because booms and busts occurred during each administration.
  • A focus on forecasting interest rates would have done very well, getting you into stocks in 2020 as the federal funds rate was cut to 0.25%, getting you out of stocks in late 2021 as it became apparent lots of rate hikes were on the way, and getting you back into the market in 2023 when rate cuts were being forecast as early as the 4th quarter of that year. It would keep you in the market today because rate cuts are still being forecast for the 2nd half of this year.

So an interest rate forecasting thought process would have worked best over the last few years but there's no guarantee the trend of what worked last time will continue working next time. Maybe in the future a thought process focused on valuation will work best.

Metalcat

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2024, 10:53:28 AM »
If you were able to block out COVID and the impact on the markets I am impressed.

Well, I already said that I didn't because I had a lump sum to invest and I had to care about the conditions I was buying into, which I why I chose to diversify half of it into real estate.

But other than that few months, I was largely unaware of the markets. I'm generally quite unaware of the markets, although I'm very aware of my property values.

tpac

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2024, 07:15:39 PM »
If you can manage it, checking your portfolio less frequently helps enormously.  Someone who noticed Jan 2020 and Jan 2021 was a gain didn't have to watch a 1/3rd drop in March 2020, for example.
While I agree with your sentiment in general if anyone was able to miss the COVID Crash of 2020 they were living in a cave. There some things you just can't avoid being aware of if you are not a hermit.
The past 4 years were nearly impossible to optimally navigate by anyone who was capable of reacting to dramatic events. In May 2020, at the point when the market turned upward, COVID seemed unstoppable. I applied the lesson of 2009 and asked myself if the government was doing the right things. I concluded from DJT's behavior encouraging conspiracy theories, discouraging masking, and blocking public health efforts that the government was NOT doing the right things. The trajectory looked very much like the Great Depression, so I reduced exposure near what would be the bottom.

I figured we'd probably all get COVID eventually, healthcare systems would be overrun, and the 1-2% fatality rate would rise to about 3%. But only part of that was correct, and the stimulus bill passed in Spring 2020 popped the economy right out of the gutter. Restaurants and airplanes were crowded with people spending stimulus checks in between getting sick and sometimes dying. Government misinformation worked - getting people out of their houses and out in the marketplaces working and spending. As the metrics turned around, I bought back in after missing most of the summer 2020 gains.

After the spring 2021 stimulus bill, I took a risk-on approach - deciding to ignore successive waves of new variants and steadily rising inflation. By the 3rd and 4th quarters of 2021 I was in triple-levered ETFs and made up most of the ground I ceded the year before. However I flew a little too close to the sun and was burnt badly by the 1Q2022 downturn in anticipation of higher interest rates. Then it was back to a risk-off approach as inflation and rates continued to climb. I had foreseen higher rates and wondered why the market was taking so long to react, but it's hard to change course when you're gaining $50k per week.

I stayed risk-off during the later months of 2022 and through the first months of 2023. I was at least smart enough not to buy TIPS or long-duration bonds, but I missed most of the 2023 rally with a conservative allocation. I did manage to burn myself with a small OZKAP position, buying high and selling low just as the banking crisis resolved and CRE fears failed to materialize.

I earned a large win in Q42023 with bond trades, and then pivoted back into a stock-heavy, un-leveraged AA in January, with a concentration in small and mid caps due to their compelling valuations.

So for those keeping score:
2020 - failure
2021 - success
2022 - failure
2023 - success

All this back and forth and losing large sums due to reacting just behind the curve has finally led my arrogant mind to conclude buying and holding is best. I played the react-to-the-news game the best I could and still came out way behind what I'd have if I'd only kept a risk-on attitude.

The interesting thing is to look back on those fateful 4 years and try to imagine how a person could have possibly made the right moves at the right times. What thought process would have led to optimal navigation of the turmoil?
  • A focus on the scientific facts about COVID would have led to the wrong approach, because you'd have sat out 2020 and 2021, and probably bought back in for 2022 as herd immunity was building up.
  • A focus on trailing economic metrics would have kept a person out of stocks for all of 2020 and left them in the market for the 2022 bear market.
  • A focus on politics would have been off, because booms and busts occurred during each administration.
  • A focus on forecasting interest rates would have done very well, getting you into stocks in 2020 as the federal funds rate was cut to 0.25%, getting you out of stocks in late 2021 as it became apparent lots of rate hikes were on the way, and getting you back into the market in 2023 when rate cuts were being forecast as early as the 4th quarter of that year. It would keep you in the market today because rate cuts are still being forecast for the 2nd half of this year.

So an interest rate forecasting thought process would have worked best over the last few years but there's no guarantee the trend of what worked last time will continue working next time. Maybe in the future a thought process focused on valuation will work best.

More or less. Personally I think it's impossible to guess what we'll eventually perceive to have been the biggest impacts of the last 4 years. With that in mind I think it's extremely likely that the market hasn't started to price them in yet.

If I had to guess the increasing levels of disease / accident related disability & death, elevated levels of workers leaving the workforce to take unpaid caregiver roles, further acceleration of lifestyle disease rates that were already increasing unsustainably pre-2020, further acceleration of the deterioration of quality / affordability / access to the US healthcare system and negative impacts on fertility / maternal health / child development will have a dramatically larger net impact on the future than the net impact that they have already had over the past 4 years.

How to interpret that through the lens of investment strategy? Investing in one's personal health has offered outsized returns lately and I'd expect that to continue - both in terms of staying healthy / productive / keeping your compensation up and avoiding the drag that comes from the time theft / expense / entropy related to having to regularly interface with the healthcare system when one is unhealthy.

Personally I experience FOMO, but it's primarily fear of missing out on future years of healthy independent living.

Heckler

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2024, 09:08:57 PM »
If you were able to block out COVID and the impact on the markets I am impressed.

I truly completely missed the 10% drop in our portfolio in March of 2020.   My phone (with us) was in airplane mode in New Zealand, just using Galileo Maps offline to get from Auckland to Rotorua.  It was wonderful until we were sitting in that tent for 4 hours trying to get in contact with the airline to get home before flights stopped.

I still put my automatic bi-weekly $1800 into an S&P 500 fund, and I see now I had an extra $2K on hand that I missed out on getting into the Top really was in.  Oh well.

It seems I was the third-best investor in the world at the time.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/the-best-investors-are-dead-and-the-2nd-best/
« Last Edit: March 05, 2024, 09:12:25 PM by Heckler »

Tass

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2024, 10:00:28 PM »
I happened to be at a bank opening a churning account the day or day before the panic really hit. All the tellers were managing freaked out customers--I listened to a woman berating her broker over the phone--and I was like "Hi, I'd like to open a new checking account with a $25 deposit please :)"

Metalcat

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2024, 06:32:58 AM »
I happened to be at a bank opening a churning account the day or day before the panic really hit. All the tellers were managing freaked out customers--I listened to a woman berating her broker over the phone--and I was like "Hi, I'd like to open a new checking account with a $25 deposit please :)"

Yeah, one of my BFFs is a financial planner and I remember her telling me them misery of dealing with clients at the time.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2024, 07:23:56 AM »
If you can manage it, checking your portfolio less frequently helps enormously.  Someone who noticed Jan 2020 and Jan 2021 was a gain didn't have to watch a 1/3rd drop in March 2020, for example.
While I agree with your sentiment in general if anyone was able to miss the COVID Crash of 2020 they were living in a cave. There some things you just can't avoid being aware of if you are not a hermit.
I remove the mention of Covid from my post a bit too late, after it became part of your reply.  It's a bit awkward bringing up Covid and investing because I beat the market by double digits in 2020 and 2021, and I know others didn't.  I lack FOMO, but for most investors my unique results aren't relevant.

On March 8 2020 the Federal Reserve sounded the alarm about Covid-19, and on March 10 2020 the market gained +4%.  Professional investors buried their heads in the sand, only to suffer severe losses a week later.  Given how much professionals missed, I could believe some retail investors were more focused on staying alive than on the stock market.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2024, 09:50:35 AM »
I may no longer be an "active investor" with most of my portfolio, but I do think market mis-pricing opportunities come along very occasionally. A short list:

October 2023: Long-term rates were running up way too high when rate cuts were probably around the corner in 2024. I caught this one and profited from high-convexity bonds as rates plummeted in Nov-Dec.

November 2022: ChatGPT is introduced with the remarkable ability to compose essays sourced from internet topics. Those who observed this breakthrough and understood its significance could have made a mint in tech stocks during 2023. I simply wasn't paying attention.

December 2021: CPI had just come in at 7.18% and the Fed had been warning about rate hikes for a couple of months by this point. Yet market prices for stocks and bonds were still going up. This was an opportunity to short stocks and bonds, but I somehow missed it.

January-February 2020: Those who were paying attention to the latest swine flu / bird flu type epidemic in China had the opportunity to realize this one was potentially the virus the epidemiologists had been warning us for over 20 years would emerge from this exact same region, and was going to ride airplanes across the world. The cost of sitting out a couple of months would have been minor. I disregarded the data at the time.

Tass

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2024, 10:55:52 AM »
Weigh against the opportunity cost: the time and mental energy that goes into tracking these things, which you could be using on literally any other aspect of your life. (I'm using "you" generally, not necessarily referring to ChpBstrd.)

Worrying about whether and when to get in or out sounds deeply stressful to me. I know buy and hold works, and I never even have to think about it.


MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2024, 11:20:45 AM »
December 2021: CPI had just come in at 7.18% and the Fed had been warning about rate hikes for a couple of months by this point. Yet market prices for stocks and bonds were still going up. This was an opportunity to short stocks and bonds, but I somehow missed it.

January-February 2020: Those who were paying attention to the latest swine flu / bird flu type epidemic in China had the opportunity to realize this one was potentially the virus the epidemiologists had been warning us for over 20 years would emerge from this exact same region, and was going to ride airplanes across the world. The cost of sitting out a couple of months would have been minor. I disregarded the data at the time.

Back in December 2021, the Fed guided for 2 then 3 rate hikes.  I went against the market in an inverse long-term bond fund, and later in put options.  But going against the Federal Reserve is extremely stressful.  After 2022, I had to take a break from active investing.  That was a really, really welcome break.  Setting my performance aside, I really envy the relaxation of passive investing, and I can't wait for my current put options to expire so I can stop investing actively.

I went through the old Coronavirus thread, and was pleasantly surprised how well my posts there held up.  Data is a great tool, even if neither of us acted on it back in Jan 27 2020 (*)

(*)
I would expect airlines and hotels to be most impacted by the virus.  Maybe you want to avoid them, or use "shorting" to bet on them dropping.

ChpBstrd

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2024, 11:44:58 AM »
Weigh against the opportunity cost: the time and mental energy that goes into tracking these things, which you could be using on literally any other aspect of your life. (I'm using "you" generally, not necessarily referring to ChpBstrd.)

Worrying about whether and when to get in or out sounds deeply stressful to me. I know buy and hold works, and I never even have to think about it.
My problem is the exact opposite. I deeply enjoy being engaged in the tug of war of ideas and data, and the analytical puzzle solving aspect of figuring out what happens next. The fact that there are consequences involved in being right or wrong makes this more interesting than playing some game as a pastime. So I have to go against my nature to set it and forget it.

Tass

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2024, 12:29:20 PM »
I relate to your post up until the consequences part! I love puzzle solving, but I'm too loss averse to want to do it with my money. :)

ChpBstrd

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2024, 12:32:31 PM »
I relate to your post up until the consequences part! I love puzzle solving, but I'm too loss averse to want to do it with my money. :)
Yea, strangely I have no interest whatsoever in counting cards at blackjack or analyzing the performance of racehorses. But stocks... they go up and down for logical reasons more so than luck... right? No.

reeshau

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2024, 01:05:12 PM »
Weigh against the opportunity cost: the time and mental energy that goes into tracking these things, which you could be using on literally any other aspect of your life. (I'm using "you" generally, not necessarily referring to ChpBstrd.)

Worrying about whether and when to get in or out sounds deeply stressful to me. I know buy and hold works, and I never even have to think about it.
My problem is the exact opposite. I deeply enjoy being engaged in the tug of war of ideas and data, and the analytical puzzle solving aspect of figuring out what happens next. The fact that there are consequences involved in being right or wrong makes this more interesting than playing some game as a pastime. So I have to go against my nature to set it and forget it.

+1. Individual stock investing is my hunting, or fishing.  The minute it's not fun, I would have no problem indexing and getting on to the next thing.

The tricky part is to guess when that might be.  Or imagine if my wife has to take over, what her reaction would be.  At some point, my portfolio probably will be mostly indexed again, with a side order of Mad Money to play with.

Telecaster

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2024, 01:51:50 PM »
COVID was very, very good to me.   After a short downturn, my business came back bigger than ever, plus I got an SBA loan so I felt pretty flush with cash.   I don't buy individual stocks unless I feel there is a very compelling price.   But in March 2020 I felt BRK was very compelling and the company is built to withstand downturn.   I didn't invest a ton, but I'm up about 117% on that lot as of today.  Another that I posted about on an investing thread here was PK, Park Hotels & Resorts Inc, which is basically Hilton resorts.   The stock was beat down to nothing, but I didn't see how the resorts would sit empty forever.  I mean, the physical assets still existed.   I bought in May 2020 and sold in May 2021 when the price had recovered to something like pre-pandemic, tripling my investment.   There were a few other choices that were equally compelling due to COVID but I didn't jump on them, I just kept buying the index.   It is fun to boast about my investing skills, but in reality buying the index and compound interest was the choo-choo that pulled the FIRE train.   IMO, it is not necessary and probably not even beneficial to do anything else. 

But there a moral to the story:  Down markets are where you make your money.    Be greedy when others are fearful.   Those big market crashes are your best friend and favorite lover when it comes to getting to FIRE.   Staying FIRE'd is a different story of course.   

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2024, 09:07:04 AM »
Another that I posted about on an investing thread here was PK, Park Hotels & Resorts Inc, which is basically Hilton resorts.   The stock was beat down to nothing, but I didn't see how the resorts would sit empty forever.  I mean, the physical assets still existed.   I bought in May 2020 and sold in May 2021 when the price had recovered to something like pre-pandemic, tripling my investment.
I didn't reveal it publicly, but I bought PK starting March 23-24, 2020.  By August 2020, it's potential to "only double" caused me to sell it.  I invested elsewhere until early 2022, but I have too many transactions to match up selling Park Hotels with which stocks or call options I bought with the cash.

During Covid-19, a diverse group of stocks fell to 1/3rd of their value.  Cruise lines, hotels, clothing companies, retailers, restaurants - all had huge discounts.  My thesis at the time is that one stock could go to zero, and the other could triple, and I'd have a significant profit ($2 bought, $3 sold) despite half bankruptcies.  I really enjoyed buying beaten up stocks and waiting for recovery.

Trimatty471

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2024, 05:58:21 AM »
Hey everyone,

I've been buying just VTI and VOO for the last few years and the results have been great but a lot people I know have been doing other things:

bitcoin, buying tech stocks, gambling on options, etc.

How do you guys deal with the FOMO on this stuff? I know it's all gambling, but seeing so many people always makes me feel like I should place a big bet down and see what happens.


I don’t have an answer because I was about to create a post myself.  I am CoastFI and via index investing  will be FI within 6 years.  While reading materials and keeping up to date on “trends” I am bombarded with media encouraging me to invest time and/or money in other assets:  digital real estate, real estate (do not want to be a landlord), bitcoin, and others.  How do you stay the course?

For example, a few people I know have been riding the SMCI stock to crazy returns. I have not bought yet but now I feel like when I do it's too late. But then, do I hunt for the next big meme stock? I dont know!!!!
[/b]

Leseratte

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2024, 10:11:14 AM »
I can highly recommend Morgan Housel's Book "The psychology of Money" and his podcast. Ever since reading it FOMO is not something I think about ever....

BiggerFishToFI

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2024, 11:02:40 AM »
I always go back to the fact that if you are actively trading, you are competing against professionals on wall street who have tons of education, experience and access to more/better information than I do.

I tried a few years ago when I bought Rivian at its IPO and sold a few days later, pocketing a few grand by dumb luck. I was checking the stock every 15 minutes for several days, and it was super exiting and stressful at the same time. Realized I have better / more important things to focus on in life.

Chris Pascale

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2024, 08:25:04 PM »
The only things I feel like I missed out on were opportunities I "knew" were good, but couldn't or didn't pursue.

With regard to your actual question: No, I just don't really feel it. For example, when BTC went crazy, it was so far off my radar that I could not have reasonably felt any sense of having missed out, particularly because I was trying other things.

clarkfan1979

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2024, 08:31:35 PM »
What about the people who lost money on individual stocks? Do you hear from them or do they just keep quiet?

My wife worked for a financial advisor as a personal assistant for about 9 months (November 2015 to July 2016). She charged 1% and sold her clients loaded funds. She tried to sell me an American Fund mutual fund in March 2016 and fully disclosed that they were loaded funds. I didn't ask for any advice, she just gave me the brochures to look over.

Since March 2016, the American Fund mutual fund has performed at 78% and VTSAX has performed at 144%. After considering the fees with the American Funds (front load + .6% annual fee), VTSAX is a little more than double the return of the American Funds.

No FOMO here.


roomtempmayo

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2024, 10:55:39 AM »
All this back and forth and losing large sums due to reacting just behind the curve has finally led my arrogant mind to conclude buying and holding is best.

Internalizing this ^ point is the answer to FOMO.

By the time there's a trend, the opportunity is already past.

Chris Pascale

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Re: How do you guys deal with FOMO
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2024, 12:25:12 PM »
All this back and forth and losing large sums due to reacting just behind the curve has finally led my arrogant mind to conclude buying and holding is best.

Internalizing this ^ point is the answer to FOMO.

By the time there's a trend, the opportunity is already past.

I tend to think if I know about it, it's saturated the market. Be it music, movies, fashion, a new saying, or an investment/scam.

Regarding investments and scams, I tend to also think, 'if it's so great, and you're not my mom [or someone who loves me] why would you share it with me?' Opportunities are finite, regardless of what TikTokFluencers say about growth mindsets and abundance mentalities.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!