Author Topic: Women are better investors than men  (Read 3171 times)

waltworks

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Women are better investors than men
« on: October 29, 2021, 01:11:09 PM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/29/your-money/women-investing-stocks.html

For those who don't want to deal with the paywall: Men are overconfident and trade a lot, and they lose money.

I wonder how much of stuff like GME and BtC this explains...

-W

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2021, 02:23:01 PM »
The more you churn, the less you earn!

Another example: Fidelity studied which accounts had the best performance.  And they discovered the people who performed best ... "forgot they had an account at Fidelity."
https://www.businessinsider.com/forgetful-investors-performed-best-2014-9

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2021, 02:47:52 PM »
I remember reading years ago that women were better savers than men despite earning less, but that they were generally a bit too conservative with their investments.

BicycleB

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2021, 06:01:31 PM »
I remember reading years ago that women were better savers than men despite earning less, but that they were generally a bit too conservative with their investments.

Maybe all claims in the thread so far are true on average? For example, women save a higher %, are too "conservative" (not stock investors often enough), but once invested in stock, hold longer and thus perform better in the accounts they did start?

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2021, 06:13:48 PM »
I remember reading years ago that women were better savers than men despite earning less, but that they were generally a bit too conservative with their investments.

Maybe all claims in the thread so far are true on average? For example, women save a higher %, are too "conservative" (not stock investors often enough), but once invested in stock, hold longer and thus perform better in the accounts they did start?

Oh for sure, it was also more than 20 years ago that I read the article.

So I'm not surprised that the less "aggressive" women have evolved with the markets to become the more profitable investors.

PDXTabs

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2021, 06:31:38 PM »
The more you churn, the less you earn!

Another example: Fidelity studied which accounts had the best performance.  And they discovered the people who performed best ... "forgot they had an account at Fidelity."
https://www.businessinsider.com/forgetful-investors-performed-best-2014-9

From the NYTimes article: Trading Is Hazardous to Your Wealth

G-dog

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2021, 06:40:10 PM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/29/your-money/women-investing-stocks.html

For those who don't want to deal with the paywall: Men are overconfident and trade a lot, and they lose money.

I wonder how much of stuff like GME and BtC this explains...

-W

Huh! I thought it was because I was / am lazy, not because of my gender. 

talltexan

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2021, 12:44:33 PM »
One of my female co-workers has a habit of losing her password, which has kept her in some excellent positions in tech stocks she bought at very low cost around 2010.

evme

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2021, 11:59:48 PM »
One of my female co-workers has a habit of losing her password, which has kept her in some excellent positions in tech stocks she bought at very low cost around 2010.

haha!

vand

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2021, 01:28:39 AM »
Yes. The average and median woman is more competent than their male counterpart.
But at the extremes the best investors/traders are also men. There is good socio-biological basis for this.

In socio biology, Women tend to be grouped around the middle. Men are distributed more unevenly with more in the fat tails of the distribution curve. Nature designed us this way to ensure survival of the species, the men were equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars, and it didn’t matter that a good chunk of them didn’t make it home because it is the stability of the female population that is they key to propagation and progeny. 

At the extremes, it is the male of our species who are the great thinkers who, advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe.. but this also means men are far more likely to be the homicidal basket cases who start wars and cause great suffering. Like I said.. think of the fat tails.

Sorry if this interpretation upsets any progressives here, but as groups, men and women ARE different and not just because of their junk, but how nature equipped us mentally for more primal times.

MOD NOTE: Please reduce the sexism in your posts. Cheers!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 04:12:24 PM by arebelspy »

marty998

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2021, 02:10:31 AM »
Can confirm with an anecdote of one datum point. Friend of mine picked four stocks a couple of years ago, three of which have gone up 3x, 3x and 2x since then. Problem being she didn't invest in any of them and threw $1000 at the fourth one which is up 25%.

I can't say I have ever had that good a track record in all the investing I've done with the worst pick being up 25%. She's got a knack. 


The more you churn, the less you earn!

Another example: Fidelity studied which accounts had the best performance.  And they discovered the people who performed best ... "forgot they had an account at Fidelity."
https://www.businessinsider.com/forgetful-investors-performed-best-2014-9

I always thought it was the investors whose addresses were listed in the cemeteries were the best, but this makes sense too :)


Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2021, 05:44:20 AM »
Yes. The average and median woman is more competent than their male counterpart.
But at the extremes the best investors/traders are also men. There is good socio-biological basis for this.

In socio biology, Women tend to be grouped around the middle. Men are distributed more unevenly with more in the fat tails of the distribution curve. Nature designed us this way to ensure survival of the species, the men were equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars, and it didn’t matter that a good chunk of them didn’t make it home because it is the stability of the female population that is they key to propagation and progeny. 

At the extremes, it is the male of our species who are the great thinkers who, advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe.. but this also means men are far more likely to be the homicidal basket cases who start wars and cause great suffering. Like I said.. think of the fat tails.

Sorry if this interpretation upsets any progressives here, but as groups, men and women ARE different and not just because of their junk, but how nature equipped us mentally for more primal times.

Oh, I didn't realize you finished your PhD in evolutionary biology and became a world expert on the subject who is not questioned and criticized by swaths of the scientific community for touting evolutionary theories without accounting for the confounding impact of historical and current social pressures.

Huh, good to know that you are an arbiter of truth whose opinions can't be challenged.

ETA: despite being a "progressive" I actually firmly believed all a lot of the evolutionary theories, especially evolutionary psychology. That is, until I became a scientist and a subject matter expert on the human brain. Then I joined the ranks of the scientific community that looks pretty sideways at that whole discipline. Not because of my social values, but because I've read enough scathing scientific critique of my OWN former beliefs.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 06:03:15 AM by Malcat »

dunnoman

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2021, 07:19:29 AM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/29/your-money/women-investing-stocks.html

For those who don't want to deal with the paywall: Men are overconfident and trade a lot, and they lose money.

I wonder how much of stuff like GME and BtC this explains...

-W

Huh! I thought it was because I was / am lazy, not because of my gender.

Right!? r/pointlesslygendered

fell-like-rain

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2021, 07:23:07 AM »
Yes. The average and median woman is more competent than their male counterpart.
But at the extremes the best investors/traders are also men. There is good socio-biological basis for this.

In socio biology, Women tend to be grouped around the middle. Men are distributed more unevenly with more in the fat tails of the distribution curve. Nature designed us this way to ensure survival of the species, the men were equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars, and it didn’t matter that a good chunk of them didn’t make it home because it is the stability of the female population that is they key to propagation and progeny. 

At the extremes, it is the male of our species who are the great thinkers who, advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe.. but this also means men are far more likely to be the homicidal basket cases who start wars and cause great suffering. Like I said.. think of the fat tails.

Sorry if this interpretation upsets any progressives here, but as groups, men and women ARE different and not just because of their junk, but how nature equipped us mentally for more primal times.

The problem with evo psych is that you can make any number of plausible-seeming arguments that have no basis in reality.

Let me give an example: in education today, girls generally outperform boys significantly in science and math. This is due to women having much better abstract reasoning, because they were responsible for managing the family and village and planning food storage for winter. In contrast, men were "equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars", as you said, making them good athletes but useless at complex intellectual tasks.

See? All you have to do is take 1. a gendered difference that is almost certainly sociocultural in nature and 2. some Stone Age BS without a shred of evidence, and presto, you've got an evo psych theory!

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2021, 08:05:09 AM »
Yes. The average and median woman is more competent than their male counterpart.
But at the extremes the best investors/traders are also men. There is good socio-biological basis for this.

In socio biology, Women tend to be grouped around the middle. Men are distributed more unevenly with more in the fat tails of the distribution curve. Nature designed us this way to ensure survival of the species, the men were equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars, and it didn’t matter that a good chunk of them didn’t make it home because it is the stability of the female population that is they key to propagation and progeny. 

At the extremes, it is the male of our species who are the great thinkers who, advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe.. but this also means men are far more likely to be the homicidal basket cases who start wars and cause great suffering. Like I said.. think of the fat tails.

Sorry if this interpretation upsets any progressives here, but as groups, men and women ARE different and not just because of their junk, but how nature equipped us mentally for more primal times.

The problem with evo psych is that you can make any number of plausible-seeming arguments that have no basis in reality.

Let me give an example: in education today, girls generally outperform boys significantly in science and math. This is due to women having much better abstract reasoning, because they were responsible for managing the family and village and planning food storage for winter. In contrast, men were "equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars", as you said, making them good athletes but useless at complex intellectual tasks.

See? All you have to do is take 1. a gendered difference that is almost certainly sociocultural in nature and 2. some Stone Age BS without a shred of evidence, and presto, you've got an evo psych theory!

I know, right?

Now no one with any decent scientific background would say that men and women aren't different, but it's simply not because of our genetics, which a lot of evolutionary theorists like to claim. Which is literally impossible since there are no genes unique to women. Period.

But there are definitely biological differences that drive behaviour, it's just LITERALLY impossible to separate out these differences in terms of social pressures vs biological pressures since the two aren't actually separate. Since the difference between men and women is almost entirely hormonal, not genetic, and our social environments influences our hormones, that means that you actually *can't* separate out social pressures from biological ones, because they're an interactive system.

Never forget that a genetic male will actually develop to be hyper feminine if the fetus is immune to the effects of testosterone because ALL fetuses are default female unless they are both exposed to testosterone AND can react to it, which not all genetic male fetuses can. They become hyper feminine because even XX women have a fair amount of testosterone, so the most feminine women in the world actually have male genetics.

If the sex differences are primarily hormonally regulated, and hormones are heavily regulated by social pressures and behaviours, then all sex differences are modulated by a *combination* of biological and social pressures (and environmental pressures) working in a feedback loop.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 09:20:43 AM by Malcat »

talltexan

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2021, 09:08:32 AM »
Suppose the evolutionary biology story were the dominant impulse behind this: wouldn't tending toward average actually make women more like "average" investors, not like super-disciplined buy-hold-annual rebalance investors?

vand

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2021, 10:00:04 AM »
Suppose the evolutionary biology story were the dominant impulse behind this: wouldn't tending toward average actually make women more like "average" investors, not like super-disciplined buy-hold-annual rebalance investors?

Well "more average behaviour" in this context it just means that more likely to a bit more emotionally stable, have a more fixed time horizon preference that doesn't change as much, be sanguine about market gyrations, better estimate their comfortable risk tolerance, and less prone to doing something silly in the teeth of a terrifying market crash. 

We know that a typical stock market investor only captures about half of the long term return of the stock market, and I'm pretty confident that the bulk of that underperformance can usually be explained to by panic selling during a market crash.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 10:01:52 AM by vand »

BicycleB

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2021, 01:11:09 PM »
a typical stock market investor only captures about half of the long term return of the stock market

Over what time period?

Specific reference appreciated if you have one.

GuitarStv

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2021, 01:15:13 PM »
Finally, a reason to give all the investment stuff to my wife so I can play more guitar!  Thanks MMM forum!

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2021, 01:45:07 PM »
Yes. The average and median woman is more competent than their male counterpart.
But at the extremes the best investors/traders are also men. There is good socio-biological basis for this.

In socio biology, Women tend to be grouped around the middle. Men are distributed more unevenly with more in the fat tails of the distribution curve. Nature designed us this way to ensure survival of the species, the men were equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars, and it didn’t matter that a good chunk of them didn’t make it home because it is the stability of the female population that is they key to propagation and progeny. 

At the extremes, it is the male of our species who are the great thinkers who, advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe.. but this also means men are far more likely to be the homicidal basket cases who start wars and cause great suffering. Like I said.. think of the fat tails.

Sorry if this interpretation upsets any progressives here, but as groups, men and women ARE different and not just because of their junk, but how nature equipped us mentally for more primal times.

I’m always shocked when I read batshit crazy things on this site.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2021, 01:50:48 PM »
Finally, a reason to give all the investment stuff to my wife so I can play more guitar!  Thanks MMM forum!

An inspired idea! I can finally give my fantasy football team the attention it deserves.

FrugalToque

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2021, 02:10:44 PM »
In socio biology, Women tend to be grouped around the middle. Men are distributed more unevenly with more in the fat tails of the distribution curve. Nature designed us this way to ensure survival of the species, the men were equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars, and it didn’t matter that a good chunk of them didn’t make it home because it is the stability of the female population that is they key to propagation and progeny. 

In a moment, I'm going to get a friend with a PhD in the field of Evolutionary Biology to come here and clean up after me, but...

a) Nature didn't design anything, but rather genetic drift and selection carved away the *individuals* that didn't do well.  The appearance of design notwithstanding.
b) Nature doesn't give a fig about "the survival of the species"
c) We shouldn't take the current culture of our own society as being the result of biological drive.  Statements like these tend to involve huge personal biases as to what "nature" intends for men and women.

Quote
Sorry if this interpretation upsets any progressives here, but as groups, men and women ARE different and not just because of their junk, but how nature equipped us mentally for more primal times.

We're not offended.  We're well aware men and women are different.  But pretending those differences are genetic when we slap pink and blue on babies the day they're born?  That's not warranted.  The only way we'll ever find out how big the genetic differences are is by working to remove all of the cultural reinforcement of the perceived differences and seeing what's left.

Far too much damage has been done by toxic sexism, pigeonholing people into roles they don't want.

Toque.

simonsez

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2021, 02:11:44 PM »
Yes. The average and median woman is more competent than their male counterpart.
But at the extremes the best investors/traders are also men. There is good socio-biological basis for this.

In socio biology, Women tend to be grouped around the middle. Men are distributed more unevenly with more in the fat tails of the distribution curve. Nature designed us this way to ensure survival of the species, the men were equipped with the physical and psychological tools to go out to hunt and fight wars, and it didn’t matter that a good chunk of them didn’t make it home because it is the stability of the female population that is they key to propagation and progeny. 

At the extremes, it is the male of our species who are the great thinkers who, advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe.. but this also means men are far more likely to be the homicidal basket cases who start wars and cause great suffering. Like I said.. think of the fat tails.

Sorry if this interpretation upsets any progressives here, but as groups, men and women ARE different and not just because of their junk, but how nature equipped us mentally for more primal times.
Wow! I'd give you an 8/10, nice trolling work!

I would have to believe this was posted just to generate confrontational discussion, otherwise what's the point or value?  The thread is already talking about a subject that weakly correlates gender with investment performance and you decide to kick it up a few notches.  I think if your tone had been smoother you could've gotten away with it at least partially but damn, I guess you wanted the confrontation when you say stuff like the bolded.  You mention some concepts related to how human societies are constructed a few times in your post but seem to gloss right over the myriad sociological mechanisms that led to thought, knowledge, and understanding coming from women to be shunned and discouraged at every turn for thousands of years.

What are women doing in grad school when our men are supposed to be doing the thinking and advancing knowledge?!
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/women-earned-the-majority-of-doctoral-degrees-in-2020-for-the-12th-straight-year-and-outnumber-men-in-grad-school-148-to-100/#:~:text=Agricultural%20Policy%20Studies-,Women%20earned%20the%20majority%20of%20doctoral%20degrees%20in%202020%20for,grad%20school%20148%20to%20100

PDXTabs

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2021, 02:54:45 PM »
I don't agree with vand at all about the advancement of science by men vs women.

I would however posit that the fact that ~95% of all homicides are committed by men is not entirely based on learned/cultural behavior.

I also agree with FrugalToque that it is near impossible to tease out the data from the noise in today's society. So I probably won't contribute more to this discussion since it seems hard to tease out the data from the noise.

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2021, 03:21:15 PM »
I don't agree with vand at all about the advancement of science by men vs women.

I would however posit that the fact that ~95% of all homicides are committed by men is not entirely based on learned/cultural behavior.

I also agree with FrugalToque that it is near impossible to tease out the data from the noise in today's society. So I probably won't contribute more to this discussion since it seems hard to tease out the data from the noise.

As I said above, it's not so much separating data from "noise", it's more about letting go of this ridiculous and simplistic notion that our behaviour is hard wired from prehistoric times because of hinting and gathering, when the genetic, epigenetic, hormonal, and neurochemical systems are so unbelievably complex with endless real time feedback loops constantly informing and shaping behaviour.

To put it simple, the question is just way more interesting and dynamic than the sexists like to believe.

And yes, those beliefs are beliefs that are ONLY held by people who are seeking support for their sexism. Because they crumble so spectacularly under even the mildest of scientific discourse.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2021, 07:19:42 AM »
I don't agree with vand at all about the advancement of science by men vs women.

I would however posit that the fact that ~95% of all homicides are committed by men is not entirely based on learned/cultural behavior.

I also agree with FrugalToque that it is near impossible to tease out the data from the noise in today's society. So I probably won't contribute more to this discussion since it seems hard to tease out the data from the noise.

As I said above, it's not so much separating data from "noise", it's more about letting go of this ridiculous and simplistic notion that our behaviour is hard wired from prehistoric times because of hinting and gathering, when the genetic, epigenetic, hormonal, and neurochemical systems are so unbelievably complex with endless real time feedback loops constantly informing and shaping behaviour.

To put it simple, the question is just way more interesting and dynamic than the sexists like to believe.

And yes, those beliefs are beliefs that are ONLY held by people who are seeking support for their sexism. Because they crumble so spectacularly under even the mildest of scientific discourse.

Sexism and racism, because you be damn sure he’d start pointing out that the “great thinking” was done by white men. Sigh. Batshit crazy.

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2021, 08:12:49 AM »
I don't agree with vand at all about the advancement of science by men vs women.

I would however posit that the fact that ~95% of all homicides are committed by men is not entirely based on learned/cultural behavior.

I also agree with FrugalToque that it is near impossible to tease out the data from the noise in today's society. So I probably won't contribute more to this discussion since it seems hard to tease out the data from the noise.

As I said above, it's not so much separating data from "noise", it's more about letting go of this ridiculous and simplistic notion that our behaviour is hard wired from prehistoric times because of hinting and gathering, when the genetic, epigenetic, hormonal, and neurochemical systems are so unbelievably complex with endless real time feedback loops constantly informing and shaping behaviour.

To put it simple, the question is just way more interesting and dynamic than the sexists like to believe.

And yes, those beliefs are beliefs that are ONLY held by people who are seeking support for their sexism. Because they crumble so spectacularly under even the mildest of scientific discourse.

Sexism and racism, because you be damn sure he’d start pointing out that the “great thinking” was done by white men. Sigh. Batshit crazy.

Yep. As I said above, I myself used to hold a lot of these internalized patriarchal beliefs. Ironically because I come from a matriarchal family where the women are highly dominant, but even then, I internalized that the women in my family were dominant because they behaved "like men." So even my female-empowerment upbringing was coloured by intensely patriarchal/sexist paradigms where the women were only empowered by their ability to not be "like women." Young, pre-academic me swallowed that evo psych shit up, driven by my own self-directed sexism. I came to feminism through rigorous study of neurodevelopment, psychology, history, criminology and anthropology.

It was science that proved to me how dumbfuck my beliefs were, and how incredibly unfounded most pop-science is, which unfortunately is what the general public eats for breakfast.

Racism and sexism always intuitively make sense to people because our systems are set up to support racist and sexist thinking, especially directed towards the self, so obviously charismatic writers who pander to that intuitive perspective always seem to make the most sense to people who aren't actually looking to have their own beliefs invalidated.

As opposed to the scientific community who dedicate their lives to challenging the basis of every single theory, because that's the entire point.

The difference between most people and a scientific thinker is that most people seek out information to support their existing thought paradigm, and a scientific thinker seeks out information that could prove that everything they believe is wrong, and either changes their perspective or only when they fail to invalidate their position after intense effort to do so, then begin to suspect that it might be accurate.

Rusted Rose

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2021, 10:24:22 AM »
The difference between most people and a scientific thinker is that most people seek out information to support their existing thought paradigm, and a scientific thinker seeks out information that could prove that everything they believe is wrong, and either changes their perspective or only when they fail to invalidate their position after intense effort to do so, then begin to suspect that it might be accurate.

And, most people also think that science is trying to do what *they* are trying to do--to "prove" theories. It's exactly backward.

And the misunderstanding is continually perpetuated.

Sadly, and I know I'm not the only one, I've read studies where the researchers clearly got the scientific method just as backward, and even more sadly, journals published them. No bueno.

vand

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2021, 11:33:39 AM »
This may be reporting on the same findings, but its not behind a paywall:
https://www.fool.com/research/women-in-investing-research/

basically:

- men are overconfident, overtrade, and have poorer understanding of their own risk tolerance
- women are far more likely to acknowledge the limits of their own knowledge and understanding, which is itself a huge asset
- women are more risk adverse (perhaps this is also reflected in that on average they tend to hold more cash than men)
- women are more likely to stick with a strategy throughout (perhaps goes hand in hand with their understanding of their own risk tolerance)

It may be a churlish comparison that some will disagree with, but imo there are similarities between why, as a group, women have fewer road traffic accidents than men and why they are have better investment returns than men: they are more risk adverse, they do not trying to be too flashy, understand the limits of their own competence, and have more patience are less likely to be upset by something that isn't their fault and do something silly as a result.


Still, it's not a huge gap and pointing out the reasons is why it may exist is probably overstating the differences. Fidelity says women may be on average 0.4% better.. so its not like "most women outperform most men". Good investors still outperform poor investors, and the good investors are probably slightly overrepresented by women compared to the wider population of investors as a whole.  Frankly though, as we know the average investor only captures about half of the stock market return, both men and women could do a lot better.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 11:35:44 AM by vand »

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2021, 11:41:48 AM »
This may be reporting on the same findings, but its not behind a paywall:
https://www.fool.com/research/women-in-investing-research/

basically:

- men are overconfident, overtrade, and have poorer understanding of their own risk tolerance
- women are far more likely to acknowledge the limits of their own knowledge and understanding, which is itself a huge asset
- women are more risk adverse (perhaps this is also reflected in that on average they tend to hold more cash than men)
- women are more likely to stick with a strategy throughout (perhaps goes hand in hand with their understanding of their own risk tolerance)

It may be a churlish comparison that some will disagree with, but imo there are similarities between why, as a group, women have fewer road traffic accidents than men and why they are have better investment returns than men: they are more risk adverse, they do not trying to be too flashy, understand the limits of their own competence, and have more patience are less likely to be upset by something that isn't their fault and do something silly as a result.


Still, it's not a huge gap and pointing out the reasons is why it may exist is probably overstating the differences. Fidelity says women may be on average 0.4% better.. so its not like "most women outperform most men". Good investors still outperform poor investors, and the good investors are probably slightly overrepresented by women compared to the wider population of investors as a whole.  Frankly though, as we know the average investor only captures about half of the stock market return, both men and women could do a lot better.

And there are very complex reasons for these differences in risk taking, the study of which is fascinating and dynamic and expands across countless disciplines, all of which have their own approaches to exploring it.

It's not "churlish" to say there are behavioural patterns that differ between men and women, or to say that those patterns influence multiple types of behaviour. What is bullshit though is to say that these patterns are necessarily fixed, unchanging, and unchangeable, even at the biological level.

That requires being absolutely oblivious to entire swaths of academic knowledge.

...which the vast majority of people are, even highly educated people, because being broadly educated across disciplines is unfortunately rare.

talltexan

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2021, 12:54:57 PM »
I don't agree with vand at all about the advancement of science by men vs women.

I would however posit that the fact that ~95% of all homicides are committed by men is not entirely based on learned/cultural behavior.

I also agree with FrugalToque that it is near impossible to tease out the data from the noise in today's society. So I probably won't contribute more to this discussion since it seems hard to tease out the data from the noise.

As I said above, it's not so much separating data from "noise", it's more about letting go of this ridiculous and simplistic notion that our behaviour is hard wired from prehistoric times because of hinting and gathering, when the genetic, epigenetic, hormonal, and neurochemical systems are so unbelievably complex with endless real time feedback loops constantly informing and shaping behaviour.

To put it simple, the question is just way more interesting and dynamic than the sexists like to believe.

And yes, those beliefs are beliefs that are ONLY held by people who are seeking support for their sexism. Because they crumble so spectacularly under even the mildest of scientific discourse.

Sexism and racism, because you be damn sure he’d start pointing out that the “great thinking” was done by white men. Sigh. Batshit crazy.

Yep. As I said above, I myself used to hold a lot of these internalized patriarchal beliefs. Ironically because I come from a matriarchal family where the women are highly dominant, but even then, I internalized that the women in my family were dominant because they behaved "like men." So even my female-empowerment upbringing was coloured by intensely patriarchal/sexist paradigms where the women were only empowered by their ability to not be "like women." Young, pre-academic me swallowed that evo psych shit up, driven by my own self-directed sexism. I came to feminism through rigorous study of neurodevelopment, psychology, history, criminology and anthropology.

It was science that proved to me how dumbfuck my beliefs were, and how incredibly unfounded most pop-science is, which unfortunately is what the general public eats for breakfast.

Racism and sexism always intuitively make sense to people because our systems are set up to support racist and sexist thinking, especially directed towards the self, so obviously charismatic writers who pander to that intuitive perspective always seem to make the most sense to people who aren't actually looking to have their own beliefs invalidated.

As opposed to the scientific community who dedicate their lives to challenging the basis of every single theory, because that's the entire point.

The difference between most people and a scientific thinker is that most people seek out information to support their existing thought paradigm, and a scientific thinker seeks out information that could prove that everything they believe is wrong, and either changes their perspective or only when they fail to invalidate their position after intense effort to do so, then begin to suspect that it might be accurate.

I'm not questioning personal experience, but you characterize your family as "Matriarchal". Does that label simply mean that the women in your family are the ones who perform emotional labor, such as planning holidays and family events, and making health care decisions? Or is there a significant career/achievement gap that results in the female family members controlling career and business income sources?

 

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2021, 01:03:48 PM »

I'm not questioning personal experience, but you characterize your family as "Matriarchal". Does that label simply mean that the women in your family are the ones who perform emotional labor, such as planning holidays and family events, and making health care decisions? Or is there a significant career/achievement gap that results in the female family members controlling career and business income sources?

LOL! DEFINITELY not the former!!!

No, the women in my family make far more money, hold far more authority, are the disciplinarians, dominant decision makers, and.basically every stereotype that you would associate with "traditional male gender roles" within the family.
If I go to my mom for comfort, she's like to say "suck it up princess, this is a you problem, and you need to solve it."

The men in my family have always been the caregivers, the ones people seek out for comfort, do the majority of domestic work, and are generally submissive to the will of the women.

If I go to my step dad with a problem, he'll likely give me a hug and say "oh sweetie, I know it's hard, can I make you a snack?"

When I say matriarchal, I mean the women are very much in charge.

I have to ask, is it really so improbable to you that my family might be legitimately be run by women??
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 01:22:34 PM by Malcat »

talltexan

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2021, 02:22:54 PM »
Thanks for the detailed answer. I truly only have the access to perhaps 3 households at the level where I think I can honestly assess who is in charge.

The vocabulary of power is so diverse, and my understanding of it has really only expanded lately, as has my appreciation for the emotional labor that was largely invisible to me before I started working from home.

What truly interests me is how households that are female-dominated will interact with the larger power structures that control society, which I would argue are still very much patriarchal in the US.

talltexan

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2021, 02:25:25 PM »

I'm not questioning personal experience, but you characterize your family as "Matriarchal". Does that label simply mean that the women in your family are the ones who perform emotional labor, such as planning holidays and family events, and making health care decisions? Or is there a significant career/achievement gap that results in the female family members controlling career and business income sources?


I have to ask, is it really so improbable to you that my family might be legitimately be run by women??

It's not improbable, I'm just trying understand what "run by" actually means. The performance of emotional labor can sometimes include it, but other times it can just mean doing a lot of work in an area in which the male spouse is uninterested.

Since this thread is about investing, I figure we all agree that investment decisions matter a great deal because they affect the long-term standard of living of the household.

PDXTabs

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2021, 02:34:01 PM »

I'm not questioning personal experience, but you characterize your family as "Matriarchal". Does that label simply mean that the women in your family are the ones who perform emotional labor, such as planning holidays and family events, and making health care decisions? Or is there a significant career/achievement gap that results in the female family members controlling career and business income sources?

I have to ask, is it really so improbable to you that my family might be legitimately be run by women??

I think that it is improbable in the sense that to a casual observer and without any societal/cultural influence it seems like it should be "run by" roughly 50/50 men/women.

ETA - of course their are a lot of families, some will fall in the long tail of the probability distribution.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 02:35:37 PM by PDXTabs »

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2021, 02:41:12 PM »

I'm not questioning personal experience, but you characterize your family as "Matriarchal". Does that label simply mean that the women in your family are the ones who perform emotional labor, such as planning holidays and family events, and making health care decisions? Or is there a significant career/achievement gap that results in the female family members controlling career and business income sources?


I have to ask, is it really so improbable to you that my family might be legitimately be run by women??

It's not improbable, I'm just trying understand what "run by" actually means. The performance of emotional labor can sometimes include it, but other times it can just mean doing a lot of work in an area in which the male spouse is uninterested.

Since this thread is about investing, I figure we all agree that investment decisions matter a great deal because they affect the long-term standard of living of the household.

Yes, investments in my family are managed by the women, but most of those women are highly entrepreneurial, so a lot of their investments consist of businesses, not as much equities.

talltexan

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2021, 01:18:07 PM »
Running your own business can knock you out of other kinds of emotional labor, too. If one partner has to be in the office on Christmas Eve, suddenly significant actions that affect the Christmas experience of the children are mostly the territory of the other partner.

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2021, 02:03:08 PM »
Running your own business can knock you out of other kinds of emotional labor, too. If one partner has to be in the office on Christmas Eve, suddenly significant actions that affect the Christmas experience of the children are mostly the territory of the other partner.

True, but that's not why the women in my family occupy these roles. There's no reason for it other than the fact that it's very natural for us to do so based on our temperaments and personalities, and we have all chosen men who are caregiver types because that's what we're attracted to. The men don't "step up" to take over these tasks where the women can't do them, they just *are* the tasks of the men, the same way that in most families they are default tasks of the women.

It's not complicated. Just take every normal gender role and reverse them. That's my family.

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2021, 02:39:28 PM »
I grew up with mom handling all the finances at home. And I mean relly all. I don't think dad even knew how much he made apart from a general idea. Back in the old days where you actully had to file tax returns manually I remember mom did his, then went over to dad to have him sign it - that she could't do for him as it would be kind of a fraud, if not, she would have done that as well.

GuitarStv

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2021, 02:59:52 PM »
Running your own business can knock you out of other kinds of emotional labor, too. If one partner has to be in the office on Christmas Eve, suddenly significant actions that affect the Christmas experience of the children are mostly the territory of the other partner.

True, but that's not why the women in my family occupy these roles. There's no reason for it other than the fact that it's very natural for us to do so based on our temperaments and personalities, and we have all chosen men who are caregiver types because that's what we're attracted to. The men don't "step up" to take over these tasks where the women can't do them, they just *are* the tasks of the men, the same way that in most families they are default tasks of the women.

It's not complicated. Just take every normal gender role and reverse them. That's my family.

It's been pretty extensively discussed how traditional gender roles tend to undervalue and overstress women in a variety of ways.  You have the problems associated with power disparity where women are less likely to feel confident enough to leave in abusive situations, more likely to be abused, less likely to be valued, etc.

So is inequality favoring women a goal that should be worked towards, or have any similar parallel problems arisen from the situation?

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2021, 03:13:12 PM »
Running your own business can knock you out of other kinds of emotional labor, too. If one partner has to be in the office on Christmas Eve, suddenly significant actions that affect the Christmas experience of the children are mostly the territory of the other partner.

True, but that's not why the women in my family occupy these roles. There's no reason for it other than the fact that it's very natural for us to do so based on our temperaments and personalities, and we have all chosen men who are caregiver types because that's what we're attracted to. The men don't "step up" to take over these tasks where the women can't do them, they just *are* the tasks of the men, the same way that in most families they are default tasks of the women.

It's not complicated. Just take every normal gender role and reverse them. That's my family.

It's been pretty extensively discussed how traditional gender roles tend to undervalue and overstress women in a variety of ways.  You have the problems associated with power disparity where women are less likely to feel confident enough to leave in abusive situations, more likely to be abused, less likely to be valued, etc.

So is inequality favoring women a goal that should be worked towards, or have any similar parallel problems arisen from the situation?

Dude, I'm literally just explaining what my family is like. Have I said *anything* to indicate that other families should be this way.

All I did was refer to my own family as "matriarchal" and then the meaning of that was questioned, and then when I clarified, some more comment were made that seemed to imply that my family isn't truly matriarchal, and I clarified again that yes it is, and not just because the women have to work on Christmas so the me have to sometimes occupy a more traditionally female role. Nope, not it.

All I've done is try to clarify that I come from a family where women occupy traditionally male roles. That's it.

I'm honestly kind of gobsmacked that I've had to explain it beyond "my family is matriarchal" but I guess that seems really improbable to some.

And if you read the post that started this, I used the example of my family as an explanation as to how I internalized patriarchal values despite having a woman dominated family.

So *nowhere* was I promoting anything.

Yeesh

GuitarStv

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2021, 03:16:01 PM »
Running your own business can knock you out of other kinds of emotional labor, too. If one partner has to be in the office on Christmas Eve, suddenly significant actions that affect the Christmas experience of the children are mostly the territory of the other partner.

True, but that's not why the women in my family occupy these roles. There's no reason for it other than the fact that it's very natural for us to do so based on our temperaments and personalities, and we have all chosen men who are caregiver types because that's what we're attracted to. The men don't "step up" to take over these tasks where the women can't do them, they just *are* the tasks of the men, the same way that in most families they are default tasks of the women.

It's not complicated. Just take every normal gender role and reverse them. That's my family.

It's been pretty extensively discussed how traditional gender roles tend to undervalue and overstress women in a variety of ways.  You have the problems associated with power disparity where women are less likely to feel confident enough to leave in abusive situations, more likely to be abused, less likely to be valued, etc.

So is inequality favoring women a goal that should be worked towards, or have any similar parallel problems arisen from the situation?

Dude, I'm literally just explaining what my family is like. Have I said *anything* to indicate that other families should be this way.

All I did was refer to my own family as "matriarchal" and then the meaning of that was questioned, and then when I clarified, some more comment were made that seemed to imply that my family isn't truly matriarchal, and I clarified again that yes it is, and not just because the women have to work on Christmas so the me have to sometimes occupy a more traditionally female role. Nope, not it.

All I've done is try to clarify that I come from a family where women occupy traditionally male roles. That's it.

I'm honestly kind of gobsmacked that I've had to explain it beyond "my family is matriarchal" but I guess that seems really improbable to some.

I was just curious.  There don't appear to be many societies run by women, but the ones I've read about appear to function in fundamentally different ways (in many ways better) that the more common male dominated ones.  It's always possible that equality between sexes is a less optimal goal to be working towards.

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2021, 03:31:30 PM »
Running your own business can knock you out of other kinds of emotional labor, too. If one partner has to be in the office on Christmas Eve, suddenly significant actions that affect the Christmas experience of the children are mostly the territory of the other partner.

True, but that's not why the women in my family occupy these roles. There's no reason for it other than the fact that it's very natural for us to do so based on our temperaments and personalities, and we have all chosen men who are caregiver types because that's what we're attracted to. The men don't "step up" to take over these tasks where the women can't do them, they just *are* the tasks of the men, the same way that in most families they are default tasks of the women.

It's not complicated. Just take every normal gender role and reverse them. That's my family.

It's been pretty extensively discussed how traditional gender roles tend to undervalue and overstress women in a variety of ways.  You have the problems associated with power disparity where women are less likely to feel confident enough to leave in abusive situations, more likely to be abused, less likely to be valued, etc.

So is inequality favoring women a goal that should be worked towards, or have any similar parallel problems arisen from the situation?

Dude, I'm literally just explaining what my family is like. Have I said *anything* to indicate that other families should be this way.

All I did was refer to my own family as "matriarchal" and then the meaning of that was questioned, and then when I clarified, some more comment were made that seemed to imply that my family isn't truly matriarchal, and I clarified again that yes it is, and not just because the women have to work on Christmas so the me have to sometimes occupy a more traditionally female role. Nope, not it.

All I've done is try to clarify that I come from a family where women occupy traditionally male roles. That's it.

I'm honestly kind of gobsmacked that I've had to explain it beyond "my family is matriarchal" but I guess that seems really improbable to some.

I was just curious.  There don't appear to be many societies run by women, but the ones I've read about appear to function in fundamentally different ways (in many ways better) that the more common male dominated ones.  It's always possible that equality between sexes is a less optimal goal to be working towards.

But I don't live in a matriarchal "society", I live in a matriarchal family within a patriarchal society.

talltexan

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2021, 08:26:03 AM »
I apologize for my own contribution to the scrutiny of @Malcat 's family. The responses have helped me understand the issue better.

I do believe a lot of division of labor in a partnered household happens unintentionally. Spouses have things they notice, and tasks they do by default, or been conditioned to do, and they do those, and--when the things they fail to notice are not producing any problems--they don't feel a lot of impulse to skill up to handle them.

Metalcat

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2021, 09:37:20 AM »
I apologize for my own contribution to the scrutiny of @Malcat 's family. The responses have helped me understand the issue better.

I do believe a lot of division of labor in a partnered household happens unintentionally. Spouses have things they notice, and tasks they do by default, or been conditioned to do, and they do those, and--when the things they fail to notice are not producing any problems--they don't feel a lot of impulse to skill up to handle them.

Yep, and when you have a family full of alpha personality women, then they are more likely to be attracted to the kind of men who are caregivers, and the division of labour in the home naturally falls into a gender reversed structure.

The default in my family is men do the domestic work and the bulk of the emotional labour. Women earn and make executive level household decisions.

I personally have never dated a man who doesn't cook and clean, I just wouldn't be interested. The only reason I do the cooking and cleaning now is because I retired. 

tedman

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2021, 01:21:01 PM »
Isn't a lot of this anecdotal vs statistical? My mom is an amazing investor, wall st exec, ivy league grad etc, but isn't that somewhat of an anomaly for no other reason than men are more represented at the extremes of intelligence? Aren't there more mentally handicapped males and more autistic males than females? So that doesn't mean that there aren't extremely smart women, or that they can't do anything a man can do, but if you were to purely guess based on odds it would be slightly more likely for one over the other at the extreme ends which was what I interpreted as the inelegant point that was trying to be made.

Its like if you say, "black people are poorer than white people" which I listened to Norm McDonald turn into a bit, and people flipped out because hes obviously leaving unsaid the reasons why, racism, red lining, amongst im sure a ton of other horrible things that led to where we stand on that subject. That said, mathematically the statement is true across the whole dataset of America. I guess the issue becomes when we take what data seems to show, and draw a conclusion like Charles Murray does in regards to race which I vehemently disagree with, but I don't like not acknowledging differences because only when we recognize difference in outcomes or inequalities can we address them. And I honestly hope this changes, and I'm sure most if not all on this board would want this to change for the better.

So in much the same way we need women on boards, women running companies for differences of perspective, so we're more inclusive and just have better overall societal health, we need more support for stay at home dads fulfilling the "traditional" mother role (even though that in itself seems so biased to me, with all the other cultures in the world that don't operate like we do). These subjects are so tough, because bad actors are always out there and are ready to take what should be thoughtful discussion and use for their nefarious ends.

What I really take out of this is that we need to, as a society, encourage young women to invest and get educated and participate in financial subjects, and we need to teach restraint and caution to young men. With the reverse applicable to the other side, but just as a sort of order of operations for how we get the ball rolling.

The one thing that always bothers me is that, just because these bad faith arguments exist, that now we can't broach a subject. If you had 100 people in a room, 50 males and 50 females, and wanted to guess who could dunk a basketball, and could only pick 5 or 10 people, wouldn't you pick all men even though its much more likely that only say 10 people can dunk and 1-2 are female and 8-9 are male? Meaning those women are better than 95% of the men at dunking, but on average males have more chance to be able to do so because of testosterone? Obviously dunking is a somewhat ridiculous thing to pick to separate humans but isn't most of what makes society society constructs that could also be construed as silly?

I honestly would not be surprised, purely anecdotally in my family, to find out that estrogen makes you a better investor. Obviously I have no idea if any of this applies to intelligence, or even how we categorize intelligence. Could dumb people be better investors?  I sort of doubt it but then the people who sort of simulate in some respects being dumb, aka forgetting about accounts, never checking whats happening, end up winning the long term investing game.

The only thing I know for sure is that education is the be all, end all. I'd take the educated person for any role, situation, or problem regardless of race\sex\creed\nationality. Because the educated person could figure out how to dunk, or can figure out the best way to "invest like a dummy". The biggest problem in society today, to me at least, is issues with education and differences in outcomes and what seems to be to be clear racist policies and horrible inequality in opportunities in education.

talltexan

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Re: Women are better investors than men
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2021, 01:41:15 PM »
I wonder why it's not as simple as looking at who's wealthier. By trying to take some cut of investment returns, aren't we ignoring a lot of wealth that is controlled by men who control their own businesses?

Of all the wealth in the world, could more of it be controlled by women right now than men? It doesn't seem like that would hold up? So if men control more wealth, what difference does it make if some group of women who are in control of certain assets achieve higher returns?

 

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