Author Topic: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.  (Read 1813 times)

euinvestor123

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European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« on: September 02, 2019, 01:45:05 PM »
I am currently working in the US on a green card and will be able to FIRE in 5 years time. I plan to use the usual approach with diversified ETFs which most people use.  I plan to leave the US once I am done and move back to Europe. I will be careful to stay less than 8 years on the green card to avoid the US exit tax and will officially give up my green card. I have contacted some brokers in the US who will let me keep my brokerage account but they will not let me buy new ETFs once I move so when I re-balance dividends I will have to use UCITS ETFs.
My questions:

1. Is it worth for me to contribute to the 401k from my employer? I will likely contribute up to the match but is it worth doing more? I will only be working for 5 years. I am unsure how this account will be treated once I stop being a ”US person”? Will Roth ladder work for me?

2. Is it worth for me to contribute to IRA? My understanding is that due to income restrictions I can only contribute to a non deductible IRA and only 6000 USD/year. How is this account treated once you stop being a ”US person”?

3. Most of my investments will be in a taxable account and with US domiciled ETFs. Once I move, is it recommended that I liquidate everything and buy equivalent non-US domiciled ETFs?

4. One alternative is to stay in the US until I get citizenship and then move to Europe. However, I have read about a lot of problems that US citizen ex-pats face. I assume that the best choice is to leave the US before I qualify for the exit tax. Is this the general consensus or am I missing something? Does anyone know if the years on an EAD count towards the total 8 years for exit tax purposes or is it only the years on a green card?

tawyer

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2019, 04:14:56 PM »
I am currently working in the US on a green card and will be able to FIRE in 5 years time. I plan to use the usual approach with diversified ETFs which most people use.  I plan to leave the US once I am done and move back to Europe. I will be careful to stay less than 8 years on the green card to avoid the US exit tax and will officially give up my green card. I have contacted some brokers in the US who will let me keep my brokerage account but they will not let me buy new ETFs once I move so when I re-balance dividends I will have to use UCITS ETFs.
My questions:

1. Is it worth for me to contribute to the 401k from my employer? I will likely contribute up to the match but is it worth doing more? I will only be working for 5 years. I am unsure how this account will be treated once I stop being a ”US person”? Will Roth ladder work for me?

2. Is it worth for me to contribute to IRA? My understanding is that due to income restrictions I can only contribute to a non deductible IRA and only 6000 USD/year. How is this account treated once you stop being a ”US person”?

3. Most of my investments will be in a taxable account and with US domiciled ETFs. Once I move, is it recommended that I liquidate everything and buy equivalent non-US domiciled ETFs?

4. One alternative is to stay in the US until I get citizenship and then move to Europe. However, I have read about a lot of problems that US citizen ex-pats face. I assume that the best choice is to leave the US before I qualify for the exit tax. Is this the general consensus or am I missing something? Does anyone know if the years on an EAD count towards the total 8 years for exit tax purposes or is it only the years on a green card?

Interesting questions. I'm curious to know more about what these US citizen expat problems are that are making you lean toward not being a US citizen.

In my experience, becoming "US resident" for IRS purposes is entirely different than for USCIS purposes, namely that one becomes a tax resident based purely on presence in the US, in any immigration category.

Also, for most FIRE types, the foreign income exemption for US expats living abroad should be well above income after early retirement, so other than the inconvenience of having to file a federal return every year, it's unclear to me what the actual costs are. Thoughts?

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2019, 04:49:52 PM »
You're asking a lot of questions that probably are best left to a tax attorney specializing in these sorts of issues.

An observation.  I've known a lot of foreign nationals over the years who intended to work for awhile in the US and head back to ____.  Life has a tendency to happen and a lot of those people end up staying a whole lot longer than they expected.  And many of them become citizens and end up staying more or less permanently.


bwall

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2019, 10:11:08 PM »
4. One alternative is to stay in the US until I get citizenship and then move to Europe. However, I have read about a lot of problems that US citizen ex-pats face. I assume that the best choice is to leave the US before I qualify for the exit tax. Is this the general consensus or am I missing something? Does anyone know if the years on an EAD count towards the total 8 years for exit tax purposes or is it only the years on a green card?

The unintended consequents of FATCA reporting requirements make it hard for US persons to get bank accounts overseas. Originally designed to motivate overseas banks to report on US persons who open/hold accounts there, the reporting requirements and punishments were so harsh that many banks just opted to close the accounts of US persons rather than comply. It was so severe that many US citizens who'd lived in Europe for decades (married EU citizens, whatever) and had their lives set up there chose to renounce US citizenship.

The simple work around for you is to keep your bank accounts, mobile phone number (SIM card) etc. in your home country.

Educate yourself about FATCA requirements in your home country. Since you speak with a local accent the banks may not properly understand your query at first. Be persistent and make sure you find the proper person to speak with. If you're not making headway, ask to speak with the 'Compliance Department'.

Paul der Krake

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2019, 02:09:00 AM »
As someone who is roughly in the same situation as you, I think you're making a mistake by trying to cut ties to the US when you leave. By doing so, you are locking yourself out of one of the best labor pools in the world, a very diverse country, and bilateral agreements for easier immigration to Canada, Mexico, and Australia.

It sounds like you have a couple of years to go, and there is movement in Congress to make US expats' tax reporting lighter right now:
https://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/blog/tax-fairness-for-americans-abroad-act-an-update/

If I were you, I would reconsider.

meatro

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2019, 01:37:29 PM »
To question 4:

I am a US citizen expat considering renunciation.  The key is to know if you want to live in the US long term or not.  Or if you stand to inherit a lot from someone in the US at some point.  If neither applies, I only see disadvantages to having US citizenship and living abroad.

For some sample issues, this this other thread we got going on.  It doesn't even touch the taxes.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/etfs-for-american-(usa)-expats-living-in-the-eu/

About the the exit tax: it doesn't apply to your average Mustachian.
https://www.businessinsider.de/how-to-renounce-us-citizenship-2018-8?r=US&IR=T
Quote
If your average annual net income tax in the past five years was $162,000 or more — or if your net worth is more than $2 million

To question 3:  it will depend on the regulations at the time.  It would save a huge hassle to liquidate and move on to non-US ETFs.  But it could also reset your cost basis in a way you don't want to be taxed.  You will always have the option to hold onto them for awhile.

flipboard

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2019, 02:07:58 PM »
1. Is it worth for me to contribute to the 401k from my employer? I will likely contribute up to the match but is it worth doing more? I will only be working for 5 years. I am unsure how this account will be treated once I stop being a ”US person”? Will Roth ladder work for me?
Normal 401k/IRA: probably good, most European countries have dual-tax treaties that ensure that only country of residence taxes the withdrawal - so you'd get the same taxation as a local pension scheme, but with more flexibility. (Note: US citizens/LPRs still get taxed even with the treaty in place, but in your scenario that's not relevant.)

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2. Is it worth for me to contribute to IRA? My understanding is that due to income restrictions I can only contribute to a non deductible IRA and only 6000 USD/year. How is this account treated once you stop being a ”US person”?
[Updated since I miswrote earlier.]

IRA's are generally the same as a 401k.

Roth is where it gets complicated: some dual-tax treaties cover Roth IRA's, some don't. If they aren't covered, then the Roth IRA could theoretically be treated as a normal post-tax account in your country of residence (so income tax, capital gains if applicable, etc.) - but this really depends on where you are going to live. Personally, I'd stay away from Roth's because they're very US-specific, uncommon in Europe, and hence very few people know how to actually handle them correctly. (I.e. you may end up needing to find a tax lawyer if your local tax agency disagrees with your views on how an Roth should be taxed.)

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3. Most of my investments will be in a taxable account and with US domiciled ETFs. Once I move, is it recommended that I liquidate everything and buy equivalent non-US domiciled ETFs?
For tax reasons: it probably doesn't matter. In fact US-domiciled ETFs  holding US stocks are often advantageous due to withholding tax issues, but it really depends on the specific country you'd be living in.

Estate tax is the other issue: if your country of residence OR country of citizenship has an estate tax treaty with the US, then US ETFs are OK. If there is no estate tax treaty, then the US will tax all US-based assets over 60k on death. That's not so nice for your descendants. Hence it might be worth liquidating for that reason alone, but maybe not.

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4. One alternative is to stay in the US until I get citizenship and then move to Europe. However, I have read about a lot of problems that US citizen ex-pats face. I assume that the best choice is to leave the US before I qualify for the exit tax. Is this the general consensus or am I missing something? Does anyone know if the years on an EAD count towards the total 8 years for exit tax purposes or is it only the years on a green card?
Yeah you don't want to do that. I know lots of people who are US citizens who are renouncing just to avoid the hassle. The main issues are: the US tax return is a lot o paperwork, it costs 2000-3000 USD to have the tax return prepared by a professional (you can do it yourself, but it requires a lot of reading/research), and of course the additional tax is expensive (depends on the exact country).


Quote
Also, for most FIRE types, the foreign income exemption for US expats living abroad should be well above income after early retirement, so other than the inconvenience of having to file a federal return every year, it's unclear to me what the actual costs are. Thoughts?
Foreign EARNED income exclusion: That doesn't work for passive income, especially if you hold US-domiciled funds.

Foreign tax credit might work, but (A) there are countries with taxes lower than the US, (B) there are gaps between tax schemes in various countries, which means you can still end up paying double-tax on part of your income, (C) the filing takes a lot of time and is costly if you don't do it yourself.

Finally (D) you are restricted in terms of investments you can make because of PFIC blocking you from non-US funds, and (E) the US restricts travel for its citizens (Cuba, Iran, etc.).

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As someone who is roughly in the same situation as you, I think you're making a mistake by trying to cut ties to the US when you leave. By doing so, you are locking yourself out of one of the best labor pools in the world, a very diverse country, and bilateral agreements for easier immigration to Canada, Mexico, and Australia.
I have no idea about Mexico, but Canada and Australia are easy to reach for anyone with the relevant work skills. On the rest, well, lol.  Your government regards you as suspect just because you don't live in the US, and bans you from travelling to certain countries for ideological reasons. For a retiree there's more to life than work, and there's plenty of interesting work in the rest of the world if really needed.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 12:46:30 PM by flipboard »

PDXTabs

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2019, 05:56:02 PM »
Quote
2. Is it worth for me to contribute to IRA? My understanding is that due to income restrictions I can only contribute to a non deductible IRA and only 6000 USD/year. How is this account treated once you stop being a ”US person”?
This gets complicated: some dual-tax treaties cover IRA's, some don't. If they aren't covered, then the IRA could theoretically be treated as a normal post-tax account in your country of residence (so income tax, capital gains if applicable, etc.) - but this really depends on where you are going to live. Personally, I'd stay away from IRA's because they're very US-specific, uncommon in Europe, and hence very few people know how to actually handle them correctly. (I.e. you may end up needing to find a tax lawyer if your local tax agency disagrees with your views on how an IRA should be taxed.)

I'm not very worried about IRAs, but I am very worried about Roth IRAs. I haven't ever seen anything reliable written anywhere about their treatment in tax treaties. I have tried reading a couple of the tax treaties, and I didn't see any specific handling of them.

If anyone wants to point me to such information I'd be happy to look at it.

My mom, kids, and one brother are US citizens, so I'm unlikely to renounce my citizenship, but you never know.

flipboard

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2019, 12:45:19 PM »
I'm not very worried about IRAs, but I am very worried about Roth IRAs. I haven't ever seen anything reliable written anywhere about their treatment in tax treaties. I have tried reading a couple of the tax treaties, and I didn't see any specific handling of them.

If anyone wants to point me to such information I'd be happy to look at it.

My mom, kids, and one brother are US citizens, so I'm unlikely to renounce my citizenship, but you never know.
My bad:  what I meant to say: Roth IRA's (and Roth 401ks) are a world of pain, because most treaties don't cover them and they have no equivalent under the tax laws of most countries. At least in the country I live in, a Roth would probably be treated like a normal investment account (albeit with the advantage of not having to deal with withholding taxes - but the complication that it's harder to document capital-gains/dividends for local taxation). You would still have to deal with the IRS on withdrawal in any case.

(And almost no one knows how they're actually treated in most countries, because so few people have Roth's. Which is why a Roth is likely to be expensive once you figure in the costs of hiring a tax lawyer to deal with taxing it correctly.)

Hence my honest recommendation is to avoid anything Roth related. Some European countries have super low (<10%) tax rates on pensions scheme withdrawals, which is what they also apply to 401k withdrawals - if you're likely to be withdrawing money there, then keeping money in the 401k/IRA until withdrawal is a no-brainer since you'd get far lower taxes that way than by doing Roth conversion (except for US citizens who still pay the difference between local and US tax on any withdrawal).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 12:50:09 PM by flipboard »

PDXTabs

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Re: European in the US wants to FIRE in 5 years. Questions.
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2019, 09:09:18 PM »
My bad:  what I meant to say: Roth IRA's (and Roth 401ks) are a world of pain, because most treaties don't cover them and they have no equivalent under the tax laws of most countries. At least in the country I live in, a Roth would probably be treated like a normal investment account (albeit with the advantage of not having to deal with withholding taxes - but the complication that it's harder to document capital-gains/dividends for local taxation). You would still have to deal with the IRS on withdrawal in any case.

As a slight aside, I just learned about the UK ISAs, which are very similar. But that still doesn't mean that the tax folks will decide that a Roth IRA is really an ISA.

EDITed to add: this is useful for UK residents https://www.castroandco.com/blog/2019/february/u-s-roth-accounts-are-exempt-from-uk-tax-qrop-lo/
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 02:28:41 PM by PDXTabs »