ETFs for American (USA) expats living in the EU

[TexanInBavaria]

Starting to wonder if carefully-managed EU-domiciled ETFs might not be the worst thing in the world for new purchases as long as I'm still working and paying my obnoxious German income taxes: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Passive_foreign_investment_company#Mark_to_market

I'm under the Foreign-Earned Income limit, and even if I go a bit over, would still have paid far more in German income tax than US income tax, so unless my investments have a really good year, am unlikely to actually owe anything. Will report back my findings after talking to my tax preparer.

[meatro]

@TexanInBavaria if you are married to a non-US citizen, you can invest the money through your partner in a EU domiciled ETF with an EU broker and avoid this whole topic.  This is a pretty great way to go and if I had a that option, I would most likely take it.

I wouldn't buy one myself.   There are three reasons: one meh, one killer and one just plain crappy!

Meh: It is hard to find an EU brokerage who will take you.   Most ask directly during the application process if you are a US person and then promptly reject your application. In Germany, I have only found Flatex and Lynx to welcome US citizens.  I started an application with Flatex, which it seemed would only allow me to purchase individual stocks.  IB is always an option, based in the UK for more complicated German tax filing.  But let's imagine the broker is cool with you buying ETF's, though.

Killer : ... then the fund's manager is not.  99% of ETFs cannot be purchased by US citizens as written in the "prospectus" / Verkaufsprospekt.  I tend to search for US-citzen, US person or 1933 and normally find something like the below examples which says that you cannot buy the shares

Vanguard:
 https://americas.vanguard.com/institutional/mvc/loadImage?country=BS&docId=941
"the Shares have not been, and will not be, registered under the 1933 Act or the securities laws of any of the states of the United States. "
"Shares may not be acquired by a person who is deemed to be a US Person"

Beispiel Deka DAX® (ausschüttend) UCITS ETF
Die Deka Investment GmbH und die in diesem Verkaufsprospekt beschriebenen Fondsanteile sind und werden nicht gemäß dem United States Investment Company Act von 1940 in seiner gültigen Fassung registriert. Die durch diesen Verkaufsprospekt angebotenen Anteile sind aufgrund US-aufsichtsrechtlicher Beschränkungen nicht für den Vertrieb in den Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika (welcher Begriff auch die Bundesstaaten, Territorien und Besitzungen der Vereinigten Staaten sowie den District of Columbia umfasst) oder an bzw. zugunsten von US-Personen, wie in Regulation S unter dem United States Securities Act von 1933 in der geltenden Fassung definiert, bestimmt und werden nicht registriert.  US-Personen sind natürliche Personen, die ihren Wohnsitz in den Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika haben. US-Personen können auch Personen- oder Kapitalgesellschaften (juristische Personen) sein, wenn sie etwa gemäß den Gesetzen der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika bzw. eines US-Bundesstaats, Territoriums oder einer US-Besitzung gegründet wurden. Dementsprechend werden Anteile in den Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika und an oder für Rechnung von US-Personen weder angeboten noch verkauft. Spätere Übertragungen von Anteilen in die Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika bzw. an US-Personen sind unzulässig. Dieser Verkaufsprospekt darf nicht in den Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika oder an US-Personen verbreitet werden. Die Verteilung dieses Verkaufsprospektes und das Angebot bzw. der Verkauf der Anteile können auch in anderen Rechtsordnungen Beschränkungen unterworfen sein.

This is important because it's possible, for example if you are a dual citizen, that you sweep your US citizenship under the rug during application.  Maybe you purchase things.  But in the end, if they find out, you will have ZERO control about the liquidation of the shares.  This is a pretty big risk.  On a German forum, German citizens are happily investing in EU ETFs until they move to US to work for a few years.  Then they are subject to US tax law and are US persons.  Most German banks forced them to close their accounts and liquidate their shares or transfer to a friend / spouse / someone who is not a US citizen.  You couldn't even hold them for the few years you are abroad.  Again, you can not tell your bank, but if they find out, you are no longer in control.

But this damning sentence in the prospect is only there 99% of the time.  After looking at ALL of Flatex's available ETF prospectuses, prospectusi, prospectei... I found SEVEN EU-domiciled fund with different wording in the prospectus which leads me to believe I could legally invest in them.  I have no desire to purchase these funds, but it is at least allowed.  They are from Amundi Asset Management i.e. FR0010756114  Maybe some other funds managers will warm up here.

Just plain crappy:  And at the end of my quest for a purchaseable ETF, I am rewarded with pain in the junk PFIC reporting requirements!  IRS Form 8621 quotes the amount of work like this

Recordkeeping 16 hr., 58 min.
Learning about the law or the form 11 hr., 24 min.
Preparing and sending the form to the IRS 20 hr., 34 min.

Don't believe them?  Read through the instructions and see how well you're feeling. Three fund portfolio? You got yourself a good plan for a week of vacation.  Plus, the tax rate is not like the US rates.  I heard it's higher, but I didn't figure that out it as this already goes into the "no no no nope" category for how a US person in the EU can invest in ETFs.

[Hula Hoop]

Duh! Why didn't I think of that before.  I can invest here in the EU through my non-US citizen husband.  Can anyone recommend a Vanguard like place for him to start an investment account here in Europe?

[Kwill]

Hello. Part of me wishes I'd found this thread sooner, and part of me is a little depressed that after so many posts no perfect solution has come up.

I'm an American in the EU, though possibly for less than two more months since the UK is doing whatever it's doing. I don't know what that will mean for the regulations around investing. I still have investments inside IRAs in the US that I've just left alone since coming to the UK, but I'm only currently investing in funds inside an employer-provided retirement plan. My understanding is that funds within the retirement plan aren't subject to the same reporting requirements, but now that I look again online, there seems some conflicting advice. I sold my US taxable investments to provide the deposit for my home, so I currently just have the retirement accounts and ordinary bank accounts.

It'd be nice to find a way to invest and meet all the rules in all the relevant countries at once.

[flipboard]

I'm an American in the EU, though possibly for less than two more months since the UK is doing whatever it's doing. I don't know what that will mean for the regulations around investing. I still have investments inside IRAs in the US that I've just left alone since coming to the UK, but I'm only currently investing in funds inside an employer-provided retirement plan. My understanding is that funds within the retirement plan aren't subject to the same reporting requirements, but now that I look again online, there seems some conflicting advice. I sold my US taxable investments to provide the deposit for my home, so I currently just have the retirement accounts and ordinary bank accounts.

The UK has prepared regulations similar to EU PRIIPS requirements, which means you'll be in effetively the same situation as before Brexit: UK brokers won't be able to sell you US ETF's, and Schwab and IB both happen to be UK brokers.

Duh! Why didn't I think of that before.  I can invest here in the EU through my non-US citizen husband.  Can anyone recommend a Vanguard like place for him to start an investment account here in Europe?

Note that gift tax rules apply when giving to non-US-citizen spouses.

He can invest his own money via e.g. IB, but investing your money is... problematic.

[Hula Hoop]

Duh! Why didn't I think of that before.  I can invest here in the EU through my non-US citizen husband.  Can anyone recommend a Vanguard like place for him to start an investment account here in Europe?

Note that gift tax rules apply when giving to non-US-citizen spouses.

He can invest his own money via e.g. IB, but investing your money is... problematic.
[/quote]

Damn.  And we have separate bank accounts so that he doesn't have to be involved in FBAR.

[TexanInBavaria]

Duh! Why didn't I think of that before.  I can invest here in the EU through my non-US citizen husband.  Can anyone recommend a Vanguard like place for him to start an investment account here in Europe?

Note that gift tax rules apply when giving to non-US-citizen spouses.

He can invest his own money via e.g. IB, but investing your money is... problematic.

Damn.  And we have separate bank accounts so that he doesn't have to be involved in FBAR.
[/quote]

I have assiduously kept my financial dealings separate from my husband's to avoid getting him caught up in my homeland's crazy tax system. The only thing we jointly own is our house. Any other assets are completely separate. We don't even have Vollmacht on each other's bank accounts.

I suppose we could choose a bit more strategically who pays for what - I should pay the mortgage and home improvements, he should do the stock investing.

[Hula Hoop]

Duh! Why didn't I think of that before.  I can invest here in the EU through my non-US citizen husband.  Can anyone recommend a Vanguard like place for him to start an investment account here in Europe?

Note that gift tax rules apply when giving to non-US-citizen spouses.

He can invest his own money via e.g. IB, but investing your money is... problematic.

Damn.  And we have separate bank accounts so that he doesn't have to be involved in FBAR.

I have assiduously kept my financial dealings separate from my husband's to avoid getting him caught up in my homeland's crazy tax system. The only thing we jointly own is our house. Any other assets are completely separate. We don't even have Vollmacht on each other's bank accounts.

I suppose we could choose a bit more strategically who pays for what - I should pay the mortgage and home improvements, he should do the stock investing.
[/quote]

Same here, @TexanInBavaria . It's a shame as a joint account would make things easier.  We have things set up so he pays some bills and I pay others.

BTW - how is living in Nuremberg?  We were just there in July to visit Playmobil Funpark with visiting family.  Everything was so clean and organized compared to Italy- it was great. 

[TexanInBavaria]

To lighten the mood: a person who lives primarily off their financial assets in Germany is called a "Privatier"

[TexanInBavaria]

Duh! Why didn't I think of that before.  I can invest here in the EU through my non-US citizen husband.  Can anyone recommend a Vanguard like place for him to start an investment account here in Europe?

Note that gift tax rules apply when giving to non-US-citizen spouses.

He can invest his own money via e.g. IB, but investing your money is... problematic.

Damn.  And we have separate bank accounts so that he doesn't have to be involved in FBAR.

I have assiduously kept my financial dealings separate from my husband's to avoid getting him caught up in my homeland's crazy tax system. The only thing we jointly own is our house. Any other assets are completely separate. We don't even have Vollmacht on each other's bank accounts.

I suppose we could choose a bit more strategically who pays for what - I should pay the mortgage and home improvements, he should do the stock investing.

Same here, @TexanInBavaria . It's a shame as a joint account would make things easier.  We have things set up so he pays some bills and I pay others.

BTW - how is living in Nuremberg?  We were just there in July to visit Playmobil Funpark with visiting family.  Everything was so clean and organized compared to Italy- it was great.
[/quote]

Nuremberg is indeed fantastic, and has many characteristics that make it surprisingly easy to have a low-cost, pleasant lifestyle as long as you're paying attention. The public transit system is incredible by American standards, though not that great by German standards. Rents are not (yet) Munich- or Berlin-level crazy, though purchase prices are getting that way (got VERY lucky on when we bought our late-50s house). There is a lot of free or inexpensive things to do around here, and the university libraries are also (nearly) free - and even order stuff for me on interlibrary loan without fees!

And bike theft is rare, as long as you make some trivial attempt to lock it.

[meatro]

To let everyone know:  you cannot buy US domiciled ETFs at Toledo Trade.

I opened an account with Toledo Trade.  The account itself is fine (just like my current IB UK account, only a different logo).  And Jason is very quick and professional in his responses. 
... but it uses IB US LLC as it's clearing house and they are enforcing MIFID with the same criteria as IB UK i.e. you need to become an "elective professional", which most of us aren't.  I wrote that I had two countries of legal tax residence when opening the account.  If I were less open about the German residence, I doubt I would have this problem.

To sum up of the theoretical possibilities known to me,
roughly ordered from OK to dire:
 . open a Schwab account before the policy change in eight days prohibits ETF purchases (a one time move, but the holdings can be held and transferred)
 . look for the unicorn broker that accepts non-resident US citizens, trades in US- ETFs and does not enforce MIFID
 . look for a way to become MIFID pro by "Financial Authority Regulation" (via USA, via Germany, via any government authority)
 . look for a reasonably priced SMA that would purchase ETFs for me
 . direct index individual stocks
 . officially loan money to a US resident buddy, pay US taxes on loan interest, they invest in ETFs and pay taxes, they pay back the loan over time, they gift me the winnings (your countries gift tax laws are crucial here, also I assume this is legal)
 . look for the EU ETF PFIC which accepts US citizen purchases, enjoy tax reporting,
 . look for the EU ETF PFIC and somehow put it in a US tax deferred account (IRA or similar for US) to avoid reporting
 . get married to an EU person (great conversation starter for a first date),
 . hang up my citizenship hat, flipping the bird to the US government's bearing on my life
 . move out of the EU, kowtowing to the US government's bearing on my life
 . thumb twiddle until regulations change

... am I missing something (besides what was once my free time)?

[Kwill]

Here's what I've been thinking of doing on a very small and occasional scale. It'd be helpful if someone could tell me if this isn't allowed and why.

I have an old IRA at Vanguard, which can hold US mutual funds because it's inside a US retirement account except that I would need US-earned income to add anything to it. Occasional side income has to be reported on Schedule C for the US but, if under £1000 a year, doesn't need to be reported for UK taxes. I occasionally have some small amounts of side income coming in from academic things, so I was thinking I could send that money to my IRA. Without seeking out any work like that particularly, I'm unlikely to reach even £500 a year in such things, but I could do freelance translation or seek out more things if I really wanted to build that up to the IRA contribution limit and didn't mind doing the UK reporting.

I had trouble with the Vanguard site once not being able to put in my correct address overseas. I think it was that I wanted to move an old IRA from my credit union over to combine it with the Vanguard one. I called and was told that it wasn't a problem, but it was just that since the website was only set up to handle US addresses and since they might need to ask more questions, I would have to talk to someone or request things in writing sometimes.

[flipboard]

I have an old IRA at Vanguard, which can hold US mutual funds because it's inside a US retirement account except that I would need US-earned income to add anything to it. Occasional side income has to be reported on Schedule C for the US but, if under £1000 a year, doesn't need to be reported for UK taxes. I occasionally have some small amounts of side income coming in from academic things, so I was thinking I could send that money to my IRA. Without seeking out any work like that particularly, I'm unlikely to reach even £500 a year in such things, but I could do freelance translation or seek out more things if I really wanted to build that up to the IRA contribution limit and didn't mind doing the UK reporting.

I don't believe that's true. Foreign (i.e. non-US-source) income is also eligible for the IRA - and I know plenty of people contributing to them. The key catch is: you can't exclude that income under FEIE if. I'm more familiar with FTC, in which case you can definitely use an IRA, but if you can choose to only cover some of your income under FEIE (and that's the catch: I'm not sure about the technicalities of FEIE since I've never had clients who needed it) then you can still contribute to your IRA. (Or you can switch to FTC which gives the same results for most countries, and better results for some.)

[Kwill]

Hmm.. I had to look up FTC, but I see now. I'd heard of the foreign tax credit, but I wasn't familiar enough to follow the acronym. My income is well within the limits for foreign-earned income exclusion, so I've only needed to pay self-employment tax in recent years and that only on small amounts.

The FTC paperwork looks a lot more complicated than the paperwork for the foreign-earned income exclusion. Maybe it is only that I'm used to the one and not the other. One thing that complicates taxes as an American in the UK is that the UK tax year is 6 April to 5 April, so it's hard to match up the numbers when filing taxes in both countries. That would be part of my hesitation with the FTC, even though it would be nice to contribute more to the IRA.

I'm also contributing to an investment scheme within my UK employer's pension plan, which has low-cost index funds, and it seems less critical for me to find an out-of-retirement-plan option until I build that up sufficiently and pay down my mortgage a little bit. I guess it's a different situation if you are thinking about saving on a very high income that is subject to a lot of tax.

[flipboard]

Hmm.. I had to look up FTC, but I see now. I'd heard of the foreign tax credit, but I wasn't familiar enough to follow the acronym. My income is well within the limits for foreign-earned income exclusion, so I've only needed to pay self-employment tax in recent years and that only on small amounts.

The FTC paperwork looks a lot more complicated than the paperwork for the foreign-earned income exclusion. Maybe it is only that I'm used to the one and not the other. One thing that complicates taxes as an American in the UK is that the UK tax year is 6 April to 5 April, so it's hard to match up the numbers when filing taxes in both countries. That would be part of my hesitation with the FTC, even though it would be nice to contribute more to the IRA.

I'm also contributing to an investment scheme within my UK employer's pension plan, which has low-cost index funds, and it seems less critical for me to find an out-of-retirement-plan option until I build that up sufficiently and pay down my mortgage a little bit. I guess it's a different situation if you are thinking about saving on a very high income that is subject to a lot of tax.

Indeed, probably not that useful in your case. But it would still result in similar if not lower US-taxation (I wonder if FTC can be counted against self employment tax though, in which case it might be worth it - I'm not super familiar with the self-employed scenario so couldn't say off the top of my head).

The FTC isn't actually that hard with the usual tax software (or at least H&R Block). All you need to enter is: Foreign income (eligible for FTC), foreign tax on that income (which generally reqires figuring your local taxes first though), and some exchange rates. The rest is automatic. But indeed, it's harder if tax years don't match.

Passive income re-sourced by treaty (e.g. dividends which have to be taxed in the UK first) is a bit trickier, but not significantly so.

[Kwill]

Indeed, probably not that useful in your case. But it would still result in similar if not lower US-taxation (I wonder if FTC can be counted against self employment tax though, in which case it might be worth it - I'm not super familiar with the self-employed scenario so couldn't say off the top of my head).

Sadly the FTC can't count toward self-employment tax. I was wondering about that last night and looked through the forms. Self-employment tax gets added on at the end after all deductions are taken out. So either way my tax would end up being 0 + whatever. It's because self-employment tax goes towards social security, but it's still a bit annoying.

[WowWhatALifeUSAT]

Hey guys! I just stumbled upon this thread today and I went from really excited to pretty frustrated. Classic US-EU citizen life.

I'm also a dual citizen (age 19) of the US and Austria (Austrian resident, not planning on going back to the US forever) who came across the whole Mustachian/Boglehead world about 2 years ago. I have about 15-20k to invest and I'm looking for a way of doing long-term passive investing in a world market replicating ETF portfolio, maybe with some bonds. Up until now, however, I haven't even started investing because of the horrible US & EU situation. Unfortunately, I'm a beginner (I know the basic ideas/rules of creating a passive portfolio, sensible personal finance, along with more situation-specific topics like PFICs, PRIIPs, MiFID II, etc.) so some of this info kinda went above my head and I'm clearly far away from being a professional investor. I was wondering if y'all could help me out a bit and get me on track in this thread/finding the path towards a good financial setup.

1) So am I correct in understanding that we still haven't found a broker that would take us so that we could buy non-PFIC (i.e. US-domiciled) ETFs?
2) Are there any other alternatives that could work without a crazy hassle, especially for a young and poor guy like me?
3) Have you guys looked at other discussions of our situation, e.g. https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=253872 ? You guys didn't wanna go through the process of establishing a mailing address, getting a US broker to take you, changing all your currency all the time, investing in ETFs through it as if you were a normal US resident, (getting a VPN if necessary), and then dealing with weird taxation on your dividends? Just wondering, not that I really wanna go down that path...
4) Have you guys looked into passively managing stocks ( https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Passively_managing_individual_stocks )? How about the tax/tax-filing situation on that?
5) I actually found an Austrian broker that would take me, after a week of calling around. Are there any ETFs that could combine to be a reasonable portfolio, that have their domicile in the USA, but at the same time are PRIIPs compliant and with a KID (for an Austrian)?
6) I'm going to be moving to the UK soon for university for 3 years. Are there any ways of starting something from there that would be reasonable?
@flipboard What's your source on the info that the UK has prepared regulations similar to EU PRIIPS requirements? Where can I find out more about that?
7) Have any of you legitimately looked into just renouncing your US citizenship? I know about the super high fee, but what about returning to the US afterwards?

I know it's a ton of questions. I'm new here and I'm sorry, I'm trying to get as much as possible. Bear with me guys and let's hope there's a solution out there!

[flipboard]

6) I'm going to be moving to the UK soon for university for 3 years. Are there any ways of starting something from there that would be reasonable?
@flipboard What's your source on the info that the UK has prepared regulations similar to EU PRIIPS requirements? Where can I find out more about that?
7) Have any of you legitimately looked into just renouncing your US citizenship? I know about the super high fee, but what about returning to the US afterwards?

6: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/draft-packaged-retail-and-insurance-based-investment-products-amendment-eu-exit-regulations-2019/packaged-retail-and-insurance-based-investment-products-amendment-eu-exit-regulations-2019-explanatory-information
7: I'm not affected so I've never had to consider such a step, ut I know a lot of people doing it. For them the fee is less than the additional taxes they have to pay to the US each year, so it's clearly worth it - but they've done it more because of the pure pity of having to pay the US government for nothing.

[Kwill]

For the UK, the government has this site with a list of 'Approved offshore reporting funds' that is updated monthly. It seems like funds on this (long) list should be OK from the point of view of the UK. It includes Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund - ETF Shares       CUSIP No 922908769.

The page doesn't mention anything about PRIIPS, though, so I don't know how that fits in. I would imagine that most US funds that bother to register with the UK government would also try to comply with EU regulations.

I guess it's back to a question of whether you can open a US account from overseas if you don't already have one.

[meatro]

1) 2) 5) no

3) I think you've got two things mixed.  If you find 1) or 5), you will still have to convert money from EUR to USD (appx. 0.4% each time) and do weird taxes (with either the US or your country of residency).   The part about 3) that didn't make my list earlier is that these people are sometimes "borrowing" a US address to make it seem to the brokerage that they are normal US residents.  That entire method is not based on not getting caught so I rule it out categorically.  Read those threads and you will see a lot of people living in fear since they know at any moment a policy might change, the VPN provider might sour, the bank might get wise, etc.  Half of those people have one experience, the other have another even though they are doing essentially the same thing so it's no guarantee.  And since you have no real right to do it, you can't press the issue if something happens. I didn't calculate the fees, but they can only be worse with the US phone number, US mail forwarding, etc. compared to 1) or 5).
>  For me, too much can go wrong and a big mental burden not knowing that you stand on solid, legal ground.

4) yes, this is also called direct indexing in the middle of my list
Pro:  legal, tax law straightforward.  Can tailor to your ESG or currency tastes. Ability to tax loss harvest.
Con: tracking a global index requires many, many stocks to do well.  The fees are not as low as ETFs: from my rough calculations, holding 50 stock positions in different global markets and adjusting them quarterly incurs fees of 700 with IB.  That is about 0.5% if you have around 150k to invest.  With 20k, the fees are about the same, so it is more like 3.5% fees.  Because you can't replicate a world index with 50 stocks, you will have high tracking error (under or overperformance).  Also, the diversification will be much lower.  It is unrealistic to be done by hand (without a robo-advisor or at least a good broker tool).  Not as liquid as ETF, since you have many positions and it can be difficult to sell what you need in order to get at your capital.  The work is high: researching the indexes, rebalacing relatively often, tax reporting due to the number of positions.
> inefficient, not care-free

7) yes, it is roughly 3000 USD, some paperwork and takes a few months.  If you want to go to live and work forever in the US afterwards, you have to apply like anyone else who is a non-US citizen (i.e. difficult).  If you want to go back to visit for a few months, visa.  I am seriously considering this one as it is a permanent solution and I personally have no desire to work in the US.  FIRE in the US, maybe, but working in the US is right out.  I would probably also only go there if I had a partner who was a US citizen and needed to live there again.  And then I'd get a residency permit by marriage (and start a new thread since I'd become a US-person again).  But since it is so very very permanent, I'm exhausting my other options first (although it is more like they are exhausting me). 
> an all or nothing option not to be taken lightly and very personal.

[flipboard]

3) I think you've got two things mixed.  If you find 1) or 5), you will still have to convert money from EUR to USD (appx. 0.4% each time) and do weird taxes (with either the US or your country of residency).   The part about 3) that didn't make my list earlier is that these people are sometimes "borrowing" a US address to make it seem to the brokerage that they are normal US residents.  That entire method is not based on not getting caught so I rule it out categorically.  Read those threads and you will see a lot of people living in fear since they know at any moment a policy might change, the VPN provider might sour, the bank might get wise, etc.  Half of those people have one experience, the other have another even though they are doing essentially the same thing so it's no guarantee.  And since you have no real right to do it, you can't press the issue if something happens. I didn't calculate the fees, but they can only be worse with the US phone number, US mail forwarding, etc. compared to 1) or 5).
>  For me, too much can go wrong and a big mental burden not knowing that you stand on solid, legal ground.

0.4% on currency conversion?  That's not categorically true, IB lets you trade market rate (at a cost of USD 2 per trade), and apparently Revolut gives you market rate for no fee (but are trickier to use etc.).

Weird taxes: depends on country of residence, but most countries literally won't care where the fund is domiciled. The issue for EU investors is the purchase (blocked by laws designed to protect consumers), whereas taxation once you already own the funds isn't that tricky in most countries (perhaps UK excepted).

For the UK, the government has this site with a list of 'Approved offshore reporting funds' that is updated monthly. It seems like funds on this (long) list should be OK from the point of view of the UK. It includes Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund - ETF Shares       CUSIP No 922908769.

The page doesn't mention anything about PRIIPS, though, so I don't know how that fits in. I would imagine that most US funds that bother to register with the UK government would also try to comply with EU regulations.

UK tax reporting is a separate issue, and something they have had to do for years. And it's highly likely that Vanguard are doing the tax reporting to keep commercial investors happy. The key issue is that they aren't producing KIID's for any of their US funds, and that's unlikely to change for many reasons (it's just not worth it for the small number of private investors who would want to buy US-dom funds).

[aspiringnomad]

Hi all, this thread has been incredibly informative and a bit disheartening. I'm reviving it in the hopes that someone can shed light on our specific situation. I'm a US citizen and my wife is an Irish and UK citizen, but not a US citizen. We have significant investments with Schwab, mostly in US domiciled ETFs with dividend reinvestment turned on.

In a couple months, we're planning to slow travel through Southern Europe for an indeterminate amount of time, starting in Portugal. That means I'll need to get an EU residency visa through my wife. I thought I had mostly figured out the tax and investing complications but apparently not. In light of what's been discussed here, does anyone know if my existing relationship with Schwab will make any difference in how we can proceed with those accounts? Second, does it make any difference if I avoid tax residency in any one European country (i.e., move around enough to not be in any one country more than 182 days) or is that irrelevant to this discussion? If it is irrelevant, does that mean that merely obtaining an EU residency visa requires me to halt all dividend reinvestments in my brokerage accounts? I appreciate any insight the smart folks here can provide.

[PDXTabs]

...does anyone know if my existing relationship with Schwab will make any difference in how we can proceed with those accounts? Second, does it make any difference if I avoid tax residency in any one European country (i.e., move around enough to not be in any one country more than 182 days) or is that irrelevant to this discussion? If it is irrelevant, does that mean that merely obtaining an EU residency visa requires me to halt all dividend reinvestments in my brokerage accounts? I appreciate any insight the smart folks here can provide.

I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice, but I am a dual national with similar problems.

I would not tell Schwab that you are leaving the USA as it will only complicate your life. I would make sure that you are not a tax resident of any specific EU country, and file your taxes in the USA as a resident. My theory, shared by many people on the internet, is that if you don't commit tax fraud no one will come asking any questions. I'm not aware of a single counter example.

[Cainri-]

Hi guys, any new updates to this thread or newly found solutions? I am curious :) Did you guys make any changes since last posting (maybe some have decided to renounce?)?

I managed to find this link: https://www.deadsimplesaving.com/blog/guide-offshore-investing-expat-etf/
Nice guide, but I saw this was a UK expat.. :/ (we cannot by US-based ETFs on IB unless maybe one can get the accredited investor status with IB?)

Here is a list of options I came up with, what do you think?:

1. Retain a brokerage account in the US and do not tell them you are an EU resident, continue to buy US-domiciled funds (If they find out the situation, then it’d be best just to resort to buying Berkshire Hathaway, ES futures on the S&P 500, and direct government bonds). As for dividends, even if they are in your US tax return, you'll need to report them in your country of residence.

2. Hire the services of a financial advisor that specializes in this situation, through them you can again purchase US-domiciled funds. They come at a price ~0.75% of your assets. Have a US-based brokerage account (Ex: Schwab). The advisor also has a Schwab advisory account with permission to see your positions and "advise“ purchases and sales. This gets you past the EU Consumer protections designed to protect yourself from your own ignorance. The idea is you’ve paid and advisor so you’re now informed. (Suggested on expat reddit subreddit; bullet #4 from @meatro’s post)

3. Open a european brokerage account, e.g. with Interactive Brokers Ireland, and buy indivual shares only -- not ETFs/funds. This would be the strategy of passively managing the stocks (attempting to create a ‘DIY index fund’); bullet #5 from @meatro’s post . Or open an account with a US brokerage and sell a "cash covered put" against the ETF you want to buy. So, say you have an IB or Schwab account in the US (with your EU info), so they won't let you buy SPY directly. So you "sell a put" (with the money set aside to buy it), then when the put gets to its expiration, if the put is "in the money," you get assigned to buy the ETF. 

4. Qualify as a professional trader, which lets you opt out of the PRIIPS regulations. But you need to be quite wealthy and/or experienced to qualify for the opt-outs. Essentially, “Opt-up" to be considered a "professional client" so that the brokerage is not required to provide a "KID" (key information document) to you. There are MiFID requirements to being considered a "professional client" though, either "by request" or "by Financial Authority Regulation." "By request" has qualitative and quantitative requirements (wealth, big trades or professional experience). "By Financial Authority Regulation" seems to mean to be registered with a relevant government financial authority.

5. Marry an EU person as @meatstro said. This way one can invest through them in non-US domiciled ETFs and also given EU spouse up to $150K per year as a gift.

6. Renounce citizenship upon gaining citizenship of country you reside/work in as an expat

@TexanInBavaria and @meatro did you end up taking the Series 65 exam and trying this route? I was unaware of the possible method of becoming a one-person US business “authorised to operate in financial makerts”.

[Kwill]

Welcome, Cainri-!

I think a lot depends on your situation, and since it's your first post, I don't know enough to tell you. Are an American who's in the US and thinking about going to the EU, or are you an American already resident in the EU? The options you mention all sound a bit complicated.

I started a US Vanguard ETF in late April 2020 once the UK tax year changed. It's on the list of funds registered in the UK, so hopefully it should be OK for tax purposes here. I already file self-assessment taxes in the UK, but I'll need to read up on how to handle that additional complication.

[Cainri-]

Welcome, Cainri-!

I think a lot depends on your situation, and since it's your first post, I don't know enough to tell you. Are you an American who's in the US and thinking about going to the EU, or are you an American already resident in the EU? The options you mention all sound a bit complicated.

Thank you!

Traditionally, in the US one would just max out 401K, IRA, and HSA if possible and then investing any savings left in a taxable account and allow that money to grow.
If a US expat wishes to invest for the long term and for retirement in France, while working in France, the options they'd have would be: Roth IRA, (or 401K if US comp. in France), investing in individual stocks through a taxable account with the brokerage Interactive Brokers. Additional money, would come from US social security (gained by working a combination of 10 years in US and France) and French pension (maximum pension amount would claimed after working in France for 40–43 years..)

[PDXTabs]

Yes, I am an US resident from the west coast, US/CAN citizen, early 20s, who will move to the EU, France specifically, for studies and work eventually (with possibility of gaining FR citizenship there and maybe retiring there, but it is a little early to say now.). If I was to stay in the US, I would max out 401K and Roth and invest in Vanguard mutual funds or ETFs. However, since things get more complicated as an expat, I though I'd see what the options are. I want to build a good nest egg for retirement, hence my research into investing from abroad.

You probably still want to max out your 401k, there are tax treaties in place with many countries to prevent double taxation on the withdrawals. The Roth IRA is trickier, you want to be more careful as the tax treaties haven't all caught up to them AFAIK.

[Cainri-]

You probably still want to max out your 401k, there are tax treaties in place with many countries to prevent double taxation on the withdrawals. The Roth IRA is trickier, you want to be more careful as the tax treaties haven't all caught up to them AFAIK.

From my understanding, you either have to be working for a U.S. company that offers a 401(k) or be self-employed and set up a solo 401(k) yourself to make contributions. If one is working for a French company for example, this would not be possible.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Check with an accountant before you invest in non-U.S. ETFs as an American.  There are things like "imputed interest" where you pay taxes on phantom money you haven't received.  And that's after you pay someone for many hours of research and paperwork to prove the non-U.S. ETF isn't some kind of tax dodge.  An earlier poster in this thread relayed something very similar from their accountant:

I'm also an American living in an EU country.  I've been strongly warned by my US tax accountant that as a US citizen it is much better for me to only own ETFs domiciled in the US.  the FATCA/FBAR regime for a US citizen owning ETFs domiciled outside the US is, apparently, punitive.  I haven't really looked into it as I trust my accountant but try doing some googling. 

It's true that many US based financial institutions require a US address.  I use a relative's address for my US financial institution and I suggest that you do the same.

[PDXTabs]

You probably still want to max out your 401k, there are tax treaties in place with many countries to prevent double taxation on the withdrawals. The Roth IRA is trickier, you want to be more careful as the tax treaties haven't all caught up to them AFAIK.

From my understanding, you either have to be working for a U.S. company that offers a 401(k) or be self-employed and set up a solo 401(k) yourself to make contributions. If one is working for a French company for example, this would not be possible.

But you are living and working in the USA right now, right? That was what I was in reference to. Contribute now, withdraw later. If your company doesn't offer a 401k, which is not French-employer-specific, you still have access to traditional IRA depending on your AGI. If you don't have access to a 401k that sucks, but is true at many US employers.

[Cainri-]

But you are living and working in the USA right now, right? That was what I was in reference to. Contribute now, withdraw later. If your company doesn't offer a 401k, which is not French-employer-specific, you still have access to traditional IRA depending on your AGI. If you don't have access to a 401k that sucks, but is true at many US employers.

Yes, but 1-2 years of 401K matching (I graduated university not long ago), before moving to France, will not give me a substantial amount to withdraw from right? But it's true that is better then nothing.

[PDXTabs]

But you are living and working in the USA right now, right? That was what I was in reference to. Contribute now, withdraw later. If your company doesn't offer a 401k, which is not French-employer-specific, you still have access to traditional IRA depending on your AGI. If you don't have access to a 401k that sucks, but is true at many US employers.

Yes, but 1-2 years of 401K matching (I graduated university not long ago), before moving to France, will not give me a substantial amount to withdraw from right? But it's true that is better then nothing.

It's not just the match, you also lose out on tax savings both now and while your investments grow.

[Kwill]

I contributed to a 403b while working in the States. After leaving that employer but before moving to the UK, I moved the funds into a rollover IRA at Vanguard. By doing that, I got the match and the tax savings when they were available but also consolidated everything into one institution and one online account before leaving the country. You can do the same with a 401k. That would help simplify your paperwork and avoid any fees the 401k company might charge once you're no longer an employee at the same place.

[Cainri-]

Check with an accountant before you invest in non-U.S. ETFs as an American.  There are things like "imputed interest" where you pay taxes on phantom money you haven't received.  And that's after you pay someone for many hours of research and paperwork to prove the non-U.S. ETF isn't some kind of tax dodge.  An earlier poster in this thread relayed something very similar from their accountant:

I'm also an American living in an EU country.  I've been strongly warned by my US tax accountant that as a US citizen it is much better for me to only own ETFs domiciled in the US.  the FATCA/FBAR regime for a US citizen owning ETFs domiciled outside the US is, apparently, punitive.  I haven't really looked into it as I trust my accountant but try doing some googling. 

It's true that many US based financial institutions require a US address.  I use a relative's address for my US financial institution and I suggest that you do the same.

Thanks for the reply.
Yes I saw that it can be punative, so I was not planning to invest in non-U.S. ETFs, it is not worth it.

[Cainri-]

I contributed to a 403b while working in the States. After leaving that employer but before moving to the UK, I moved the funds into a rollover IRA at Vanguard. By doing that, I got the match and the tax savings when they were available but also consolidated everything into one institution and one online account before leaving the country. You can do the same with a 401k. That would help simplify your paperwork and avoid any fees the 401k company might charge once you're no longer an employee at the same place.

That is not a bad idea, thanks for sharing that.
I was also reading that it can be advantageous to have multiple account before leaving abroad (Vanguard, IB, Schwab, etc.), then invest from abroad. If one account is frozen, simply continue investing in the others.

[Kwill]

I was also reading that it can be advantageous to have multiple account before leaving abroad (Vanguard, IB, Schwab, etc.), then invest from abroad. If one account is frozen, simply continue investing in the others.

I would have said just the opposite--that I'm glad I simplified my US financial life as much as possible before moving and that I wish I'd eliminated more. I have to file taxes in two countries with different tax years. The UK tax year is 6 April to 5 April. That means none of the tax paperwork fits the other country. I have to go into the individual monthly statements for any US accounts and add up interest manually for the UK taxes. Then I have to do the same to report UK earnings in the US. France may be easier, though. Google tells me that the French tax year follows the calendar year, the same as the US.

[Cainri-]

I was also reading that it can be advantageous to have multiple account before leaving abroad (Vanguard, IB, Schwab, etc.), then invest from abroad. If one account is frozen, simply continue investing in the others.

I would have said just the opposite--that I'm glad I simplified my US financial life as much as possible before moving and that I wish I'd eliminated more. I have to file taxes in two countries with different tax years. The UK tax year is 6 April to 5 April. That means none of the tax paperwork fits the other country. I have to go into the individual monthly statements for any US accounts and add up interest manually for the UK taxes. Then I have to do the same to report UK earnings in the US. France may be easier, though. Google tells me that the French tax year follows the calendar year, the same as the US.

Yikes, that's sounds like a tedious proccess !
But yes for France, the tax year follows the calendar year like with as the US. We'll see how it goes. Once I make the move, I shall chime in here if I learn anything new along the way and which options have worked/not worked.

[tarheeldan]

I was also reading that it can be advantageous to have multiple account before leaving abroad (Vanguard, IB, Schwab, etc.), then invest from abroad. If one account is frozen, simply continue investing in the others.

I would have said just the opposite--that I'm glad I simplified my US financial life as much as possible before moving and that I wish I'd eliminated more. I have to file taxes in two countries with different tax years. The UK tax year is 6 April to 5 April. That means none of the tax paperwork fits the other country. I have to go into the individual monthly statements for any US accounts and add up interest manually for the UK taxes. Then I have to do the same to report UK earnings in the US. France may be easier, though. Google tells me that the French tax year follows the calendar year, the same as the US.

I agree, my plan is to convert everything at Vanguard to ETF and move everything to Schwab to keep things simple when I move abroad.   My father (US citizen( lives abroad and had no trouble seeing up a Schwab One account a couple years ago.

[Cainri-]

One more related topic I was also curious about: I came across a video from a financial advisory firm explaining how to have a well distrubed portfolio and how to integrate currency risk management (for example if one plans to retire abroad), and they provided this breakdown (attached photo).

This is great and all if one is letting them handle your investments and if an expat has opened brokerage an account with a US address, since both of these options would allow one to buy etfs.

However, if one doesn't meet the minimum value of holdings to work with financial advisors that will invest in etfs for them or doesnt have a US address (or account was closed down w since leaving US), how can one achieve a similar porfolio.

Indivdual stocks and fractional shares are great for replicating an index (30+ stocks for S&P 500 for example bought w fractional shares), but would be really complex to use in hopes of recreating a similar assest allocation breakdown as in the photo.

Any ideas on how this can be achieved? (I suppose options trading can work?)

[tarheeldan]

If you've got 25k:

https://international.schwab.com/brokerage-account

[Kwill]

@Cainri- Why don't you just call up a few places and ask them about your situation and the possibility of moving to France before you commit to opening an account with them? When I was moving to the UK, I called Vanguard and asked if there would be any problems, and the person on the phone was very reassuring. Vanguard has my correct UK address, and it's not an issue. @tarheeldan's father seems to be having a good experience with a Schwab One account.

Financial advisors tend to take fees or commissions that are more beneficial for them than for their customers, so I'd hesitate on that, even if my portfolio was that big. Also, if you're in your early 20s, that kind of very diversified and cautious portfolio might cost you a lot of potential growth over the years.

[Cainri-]

@Kwill @tarheeldan

I have read on this thread the Schwab is good, same with IB. @tarheeldan your father opened with a US address and/or can still invest in US domiciled ETFs even after being abroad for something? If so, that is great to know it is possible. I wonder how they decide which accounts to close..I read using a VPN is needed to continue investing.

Yes, one can open an account while still in the US and possibly abroad if they use a US address, or through IB using their foreign address. But with all 3 there is risk of not being able to invest in US-domiciled etfs (but still be able to purchase individual stocks). Keeping that in mind, that there is a possibility one cannot purchase etfs, what would be a way to diversify for currency risk? That was my main concern, not who will or will not allow me to open an account.

[tarheeldan]

@Kwill @tarheeldan

I have read on this thread the Schwab is good, same with IB. @tarheeldan your father opened with a US address and/or can still invest in US domiciled ETFs even after being abroad for something? If so, that is great to know it is possible. I wonder how they decide which accounts to close..I read using a VPN is needed to continue investing.

Yes, one can open an account while still in the US and possibly abroad if they use a US address, or through IB using their foreign address. But with all 3 there is risk of not being able to invest in US-domiciled etfs (but still be able to purchase individual stocks). Keeping that in mind, that there is a possibility one cannot purchase etfs, what would be a way to diversify for currency risk? That was my main concern, not who will or will not allow me to open an account.

Yes, my father opened the account while based in Thailand. First he opened an account with the Singapore office, but they closed that, and then he moved to Schwab One Int'l. He has a family address he can use in the US but I don't think that was a thing with Schwab

[Cainri-]

Yes, my father opened the account while based in Thailand. First he opened an account with the Singapore office, but they closed that, and then he moved to Schwab One Int'l. He has a family address he can use in the US but I don't think that was a thing with Schwab

Ok, thanks for letting me know. That is interesting he was able to open.
I emailed Charles Schwab about buying ETFs when moving abroad and they emailed back saying that wasn't possible (due to the regulations).

[tarheeldan]

They're really into servicing expats:
https://international.schwab.com/expatriate-essentials

FATCA means basically no one will let you do US mutual funds with no US address unless you have a big account.  If you have $1m or $2m at Merrill, they might make it work. I've seen it happen. It's not illegal,  just onerous as I understand it to meet the regs. ETFs are much easier for them.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk

[Cainri-]

They're really into servicing expats:
https://international.schwab.com/expatriate-essentials

FATCA means basically no one will let you do US mutual funds with no US address unless you have a big account.  If you have $1m or $2m at Merrill, they might make it work. I've seen it happen. It's not illegal,  just onerous as I understand it to meet the regs. ETFs are much easier for them.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the link. I still have a US address and have not left abroad yet, so I am looking at Vanguard, IB, and Schwab. Leaning towards Shwab though, heard many positive things from it. Customer service is better than IB for example. As long as ETFs are allowed, I'll be happy haha

[PDXTabs]

I just listened to the Animal Sprits podcast episode on direct indexing with Orion and that seems to have some real potential for folks in this situation. However, today they don't offer the product to individuals.  There would appear to be some opportunity here for someone to start a business doing this with their platform for expats.

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Thanks for the link. I still have a US address and have not left abroad yet, so I am looking at Vanguard, IB, and Schwab. Leaning towards Shwab though, heard many positive things from it. Customer service is better than IB for example. As long as ETFs are allowed, I'll be happy haha

I've heard Schwab allows withdrawals at international ATMs, which tells me they'd be more appropriate for your situation.

Consider opening accounts at both Schwab and Vanguard, even if you only put a small amount at Vanguard.  That way once you move abroad, you'll be in the "oops, didn't update my address" category, instead of the "deliberately gave wrong address on my application".

[Cainri-]

I've heard Schwab allows withdrawals at international ATMs, which tells me they'd be more appropriate for your situation.
Consider opening accounts at both Schwab and Vanguard, even if you only put a small amount at Vanguard.  That way once you move abroad, you'll be in the "oops, didn't update my address" category, instead of the "deliberately gave wrong address on my application".

A good idea as well. Thanks for sharing.

[NN6]

Hi all,

as an EU/US citizen living in Norway with no American address I was wondering if you have some advice for me?

1. Generally I would like to invest monthly into index funds but from reading through this thread there doesn't seem to be an option to do this, correct?

2. Is it fine to invest into individual stocks from a European account on European exchanges without complicating American taxes? Or is it better to open a Schwab international account even though that will complicate my Norwegian taxes (Norwegian taxes are manageable though)?

3. Is there somewhere where I can find a lets say 15 stock portfolio that I can copy that would track major indexes like the S&P500 with an accuracy over 90%? Other portfolio ideas that are well diversified would be fine too. I am just thinking I want to keep it simple with not too many stocks if I have to go this route.

I must admit American taxes are too complicated for me so your advice is really appreciated a lot!