Author Topic: Bitcoin is funny money  (Read 156854 times)

celerystalks

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #500 on: March 15, 2021, 05:55:49 PM »
Maybe this is a stupid question, but what is the value prop of using a blockchain-backed cryptocurrency stored at a government-regulated and legally insured bank? Isn’t the entire purpose of cryptocurrency to skirt the need for government authority / law /etc? Isn’t the entire purpose to be able to avoid trusting a 3rd party?

The government charter is just a clever ruse. The section of the Wyoming banking code and regulations here was drafted tailor fit to regulate crypto exchanges to basically do what they already do. Its not a generic piece of legislation that crypto exchanges have finally found a way to fully comply with. It will not end up regulating crypto exchanges. Crypto exchanges will continue to do whatever they want, and if they are in violation of the regulations they will either ignore them or send someone in to have them changed. Basically the crypto exchanges will regulate the regulators. The point of this farce is to give the crypto exchanges a government entity to point to that has blessed the exchanges and also provide limitations on liability when customers are ripped off.

Jacob F

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #501 on: March 15, 2021, 07:27:17 PM »
Quote
Starting your post with "legally speaking probably"..... clearly sets the stage. Ever realized that even the vanguard mutual fund account is not FDIC insured either? Its a custodial account, which means the title always remains with the customer. Hot damn! Needless to say that your post just contributed to global warming without generating any value :D

Wow! Another legal scholar! Sorry, pal, but you are just wrong

 First a brokerage such as vanguard is insured via SIPC. This sort of equivalent to the FDIC except it insures the account holders ownership interest in the securities but not necessarily their value.

 Further for things like stocks that people hold in their brokerage accounts the legal title to the securities are  is placed in “street name” in registration with the transfer agent for the stock. It is the equitable and beneficial title which is held by the account owner and represented in their brokerage account and which is established their brokerage account agreement and the fiduciary duty’s owed to them by the brokerage house.

I know learning is hard. But thanks for playing..

For someone who is so well versed in legal matters as you are, it must have been a rough day mixing up FDiC and SPIC. My apologies for pointing out the faux pas.

You are still wrong on the ownership topic as well, as you point out yourself that the spic insures against ownership losses, hence the customer must own the securities to be insured.
The street name is only assigned to the broker for the time of transfer of title and only represents a very limited timeframe and does not constitute ownership. Its only holding position on behalf of the customer.

Any subsequent change in ownership after purchasing stocks, e.g., would also automatically trigger tax implications.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #502 on: March 15, 2021, 07:35:05 PM »
Crypto exchanges will continue to do whatever they want, and if they are in violation of the regulations they will either ignore them or send someone in to have them changed. Basically the crypto exchanges will regulate the regulators.

Banning bitcoin is easier to justify. Because once it is banned nothing will change economically.  It will just eliminate a large fertile field for financial crimes.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-cryptocurrency-ban-idUSKBN2B60R0

India is waking up to smell the coffee. These cryptos are a direct threat to government sovereignty. They are like a perpetual wild west with no hope of ever being tamed.  An inability to be placed under the rule of law is not a bug, it is an inherent feature of cryptos, especially bitcoin.


Wait, I'm so confused, what is your narrative exactly again? Will governments all over the world ban bitcoin or will bitcoin "regulate the regulators." I can't even keep your arguments straight anymore.

celerystalks

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #503 on: March 15, 2021, 08:43:28 PM »
Quote
Quote
Starting your post with "legally speaking probably"..... clearly sets the stage. Ever realized that even the vanguard mutual fund account is not FDIC insured either? Its a custodial account, which means the title always remains with the customer. Hot damn! Needless to say that your post just contributed to global warming without generating any value :D

Wow! Another legal scholar! Sorry, pal, but you are just wrong

 First a brokerage such as vanguard is insured via SIPC. This sort of equivalent to the FDIC except it insures the account holders ownership interest in the securities but not necessarily their value.

 Further for things like stocks that people hold in their brokerage accounts the legal title to the securities are  is placed in “street name” in registration with the transfer agent for the stock. It is the equitable and beneficial title which is held by the account owner and represented in their brokerage account and which is established their brokerage account agreement and the fiduciary duty’s owed to them by the brokerage house.

I know learning is hard. But thanks for playing..

For someone who is so well versed in legal matters as you are, it must have been a rough day mixing up FDiC and SPIC. My apologies for pointing out the faux pas.


I didn’t make a mistake.

Let me google SIPC for you. Oh, look first hit is the Wikipedia article that explains it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_Investor_Protection_Corporation

Quote
You are still wrong on the ownership topic as well, as you point out yourself that the spic insures against ownership losses, hence the customer must own the securities to be insured.
The street name is only assigned to the broker for the time of transfer of title and only represents a very limited timeframe and does not constitute ownership. Its only holding position on behalf of the customer.

Any subsequent change in ownership after purchasing stocks, e.g., would also automatically trigger tax implications.

Yes holding the the position by registering the securities in their own name while agreeing that the client has the equitable or beneficial ownership in them. This is evidenced by providing trade confirmations and statements to the client establishing the beneficial ownership. But there is no Domesday Book in the sky where all of the stocks in the clients brokerage account are recorded in the clients name. It is between the client and broker. That beneficial ownership is the ownership interest which is insured. If the client had the securities registered in their own name directly with the transfer agent, they would not be “in” the brokerage account and there would be no insurance unless the transfer agent had some sort of bond or E&O policy. Registration directly with the transfer agent used to be more common with paper certificates, where brokers would give the client the option of direct registration at the time the trade was placed. But there is no point 8n direct registration these days where most transfer agents use ledger entry.

And this is all a fascinating discussion btw and I am happy to help educate you. It also proves how complicated the holdings of financial assets in modern banking are and why it pays to be skeptical that a a rag tag bunch of crypto enthusiasts are going to reinvent money.

celerystalks

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #504 on: March 15, 2021, 08:58:02 PM »
Crypto exchanges will continue to do whatever they want, and if they are in violation of the regulations they will either ignore them or send someone in to have them changed. Basically the crypto exchanges will regulate the regulators.

Banning bitcoin is easier to justify. Because once it is banned nothing will change economically.  It will just eliminate a large fertile field for financial crimes.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-cryptocurrency-ban-idUSKBN2B60R0

India is waking up to smell the coffee. These cryptos are a direct threat to government sovereignty. They are like a perpetual wild west with no hope of ever being tamed.  An inability to be placed under the rule of law is not a bug, it is an inherent feature of cryptos, especially bitcoin.


Wait, I'm so confused, what is your narrative exactly again? Will governments all over the world ban bitcoin or will bitcoin "regulate the regulators." I can't even keep your arguments straight anymore.

State and local and even some unsophisticated national governments may attempt to regulate them. At some point though sovereign governments will realize their mistake and sill ban them.

Industries regulating the regulators is a phenomenon known as regulatory capture.  And the industries that have successfully manages it do exactly what you just did earlier.. they point to the existence of government regulatory framework that they are ostensibly subject to as a justification and for legitimacy of the industry and what it does. And when people get screwed by the industry (which is part of the crypto business model as far as I can tell) the industry just blames the regulators for failure of oversight.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 09:01:21 PM by celerystalks »

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #505 on: March 15, 2021, 09:15:12 PM »
State and local and even some unsophisticated national governments may attempt to regulate them. At some point though sovereign governments will realize their mistake and sill ban them.

Industries regulating the regulators is a phenomenon known as regulatory capture.  And the industries that have successfully manages it do exactly what you just did earlier.. they point to the existence of government regulatory framework that they are ostensibly subject to as a justification and for legitimacy of the industry and what it does. And when people get screwed by the industry (which is part of the crypto business model as far as I can tell) the industry just blames the regulators for failure of oversight.

I just find it amazing that you can go between arguments of, bitcoin being a dead valueless technology and that governments will ban it, so easily. Seems odd that governments would feel the need to ban something that is so valueless and a technology that is so pointless.

Also this:

https://quillette.com/2021/02/21/can-governments-stop-bitcoin/

celerystalks

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #506 on: March 15, 2021, 09:23:13 PM »
State and local and even some unsophisticated national governments may attempt to regulate them. At some point though sovereign governments will realize their mistake and sill ban them.

Industries regulating the regulators is a phenomenon known as regulatory capture.  And the industries that have successfully manages it do exactly what you just did earlier.. they point to the existence of government regulatory framework that they are ostensibly subject to as a justification and for legitimacy of the industry and what it does. And when people get screwed by the industry (which is part of the crypto business model as far as I can tell) the industry just blames the regulators for failure of oversight.

I just find it amazing that you can go between arguments of, bitcoin being a dead valueless technology and that governments will ban it, so easily. Seems odd that governments would feel the need to ban something that is so valueless and a technology that is so pointless.

Also this:

https://quillette.com/2021/02/21/can-governments-stop-bitcoin/

Governments often ban gambling or require it to be subject to government monopoly like state run lotteries. Gambling is popular, can produce spectacular gains for some individuals on some rare occasions, but it also has no value for society and is a net drain. Go figure. Bitcoin is basically the same thing. A wildly erratic net drain on society.

effigy98

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #507 on: March 15, 2021, 11:57:25 PM »
RIOT blockchain... it is raining money now in the crypto portfolio. Florida even buying this thing for the government. Crazy times we live in. More rebalance... only two places that seem reasonable right now is some commodities and emerging markets. Everything is expensive with this 25% inflation! I really don't think Bitcoin is going up, it is more like dollar is going DOWN (and fast), but since every country is doing the same, it "appears" that is not the case. I think there are more people and companies then you know buying in to escape the system to protect themselves from having their wealth inflated away.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 12:06:57 AM by effigy98 »

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #508 on: March 16, 2021, 07:05:11 AM »
I was considering buying a little bitcoin and noticed my broker offers 6% interest on this coin and no trade fees. BTC costs $11 to sell. Tempting, but I couldn't know less. Ah... I feel so old.

USDC is a fully collateralized US dollar stablecoin. It is an Ethereum powered coin and is the brainchild of CENTRE, an open source project bootstrapped by contributions from Circle and Coinbase. USDCs are issued by regulated and licensed financial institutions that maintain full reserves of the equivalent fiat currency in a 1 USDC:1 USD ratio

GuitarStv

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #509 on: March 16, 2021, 07:55:47 AM »
I was considering buying a little bitcoin and noticed my broker offers 6% interest on this coin and no trade fees. BTC costs $11 to sell. Tempting, but I couldn't know less. Ah... I feel so old.

USDC is a fully collateralized US dollar stablecoin. It is an Ethereum powered coin and is the brainchild of CENTRE, an open source project bootstrapped by contributions from Circle and Coinbase. USDCs are issued by regulated and licensed financial institutions that maintain full reserves of the equivalent fiat currency in a 1 USDC:1 USD ratio

I'm willing to let you get in on the ground floor of my new cryptocurrency - buttcoin.  It uses the same blockchain technology as bitcoin and ethereum.  PM me for an address to send your money to so you don't miss out!  As we all know, the sky is the limit and nobody loses with blockchain!

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #510 on: March 16, 2021, 08:35:04 AM »
I was considering buying a little bitcoin and noticed my broker offers 6% interest on this coin and no trade fees. BTC costs $11 to sell. Tempting, but I couldn't know less. Ah... I feel so old.

USDC is a fully collateralized US dollar stablecoin. It is an Ethereum powered coin and is the brainchild of CENTRE, an open source project bootstrapped by contributions from Circle and Coinbase. USDCs are issued by regulated and licensed financial institutions that maintain full reserves of the equivalent fiat currency in a 1 USDC:1 USD ratio

I'm willing to let you get in on the ground floor of my new cryptocurrency - buttcoin.  It uses the same blockchain technology as bitcoin and ethereum.  PM me for an address to send your money to so you don't miss out!  As we all know, the sky is the limit and nobody loses with blockchain!
It does seem to defeat the purpose of crypto in general, to rely on the dollar as a backing, LOL. I am curious where the 6% interest comes from. Thanks, you can keep your buttcoin and I don't care where, LOL.

crimp

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #511 on: March 16, 2021, 08:46:07 AM »
I was considering buying a little bitcoin and noticed my broker offers 6% interest on this coin and no trade fees. BTC costs $11 to sell. Tempting, but I couldn't know less. Ah... I feel so old.

USDC is a fully collateralized US dollar stablecoin. It is an Ethereum powered coin and is the brainchild of CENTRE, an open source project bootstrapped by contributions from Circle and Coinbase. USDCs are issued by regulated and licensed financial institutions that maintain full reserves of the equivalent fiat currency in a 1 USDC:1 USD ratio

I'm willing to let you get in on the ground floor of my new cryptocurrency - buttcoin.  It uses the same blockchain technology as bitcoin and ethereum.  PM me for an address to send your money to so you don't miss out!  As we all know, the sky is the limit and nobody loses with blockchain!
It does seem to defeat the purpose of crypto in general, to rely on the dollar as a backing, LOL. I am curious where the 6% interest comes from. Thanks, you can keep your buttcoin and I don't care where, LOL.

Most of the entities doing this high-interest thing (BlockFI, etc) with cryptocurrency are doing loans with cryptocurrency as collateral. Usually they offer something akin to margin loans in which the folks who are crypto-rich and cash poor stake their cryptocurrency for a loan without having to sell the underlying BTC/ETH/whatever.

DaKini

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #512 on: March 16, 2021, 09:20:11 AM »
wow, that sounds scary.

effigy98

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #513 on: March 16, 2021, 09:26:44 AM »
This is great for crypto holders. I can finance something and pay zero taxes without selling down the crypto. I can get interest on my crypto paid from profits from the borrowers. The risk is you don't control your crypto while its on their platforms (not your keys). Up to 8% dividend is pretty amazing at blockfi and I have moved some in with no issues. Making enough to cover all bills in just interest. The only other source I have found with this kind of dividend and limited downside is NUSI (NASDAQ 100 collar strategy) which I use in ROTH which also can cover all bills. We have some great options to make consistent money in markets like these even if they go up and down.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 09:31:18 AM by effigy98 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #514 on: March 16, 2021, 10:07:47 AM »
This is great for crypto holders. I can finance something and pay zero taxes without selling down the crypto. I can get interest on my crypto paid from profits from the borrowers. The risk is you don't control your crypto while its on their platforms (not your keys). Up to 8% dividend is pretty amazing at blockfi and I have moved some in with no issues. Making enough to cover all bills in just interest. The only other source I have found with this kind of dividend and limited downside is NUSI (NASDAQ 100 collar strategy) which I use in ROTH which also can cover all bills. We have some great options to make consistent money in markets like these even if they go up and down.

Sounds like a great scheme to get rich.  And quick!

:P

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #515 on: March 16, 2021, 02:20:50 PM »
I was considering buying a little bitcoin and noticed my broker offers 6% interest on this coin and no trade fees. BTC costs $11 to sell. Tempting, but I couldn't know less. Ah... I feel so old.

USDC is a fully collateralized US dollar stablecoin. It is an Ethereum powered coin and is the brainchild of CENTRE, an open source project bootstrapped by contributions from Circle and Coinbase. USDCs are issued by regulated and licensed financial institutions that maintain full reserves of the equivalent fiat currency in a 1 USDC:1 USD ratio

I'm willing to let you get in on the ground floor of my new cryptocurrency - buttcoin.  It uses the same blockchain technology as bitcoin and ethereum.  PM me for an address to send your money to so you don't miss out!  As we all know, the sky is the limit and nobody loses with blockchain!

Hey, if you can't trust strangers on the internet, who can you trust, after all?

IMO, the cryptos that will do best will be like Dogecoin and have a meme association. For example:

Pirate Chain (symbol ARRR) https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/pirate-chain/
Burger Swap https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/burger-swap/
DAD https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dad/
Duck Dime https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/duckdaodime/
BnkToTheFuture https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bnktothefuture/
Bird.Money https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bird-money/
TurtleCoin https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/turtlecoin/
Pepemon Pepeballs https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/pepemon-pepeballs/
Pizza https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/pizza/
and of course
Name Changing Token https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/name-changing-token/

I mean, brag about bitcoin all you want. Did it 40x since early December like Bird.Money? Didn't think so.

Vienna4ever

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #516 on: March 16, 2021, 07:11:49 PM »
Why You Should Put All of Your Money in Bitcoin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-zIbVEjVpQ

Wrenchturner

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #517 on: March 17, 2021, 05:20:35 PM »
$btc really likes it when J Powell speaks!

mjr

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #518 on: March 19, 2021, 03:26:54 PM »

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #519 on: March 21, 2021, 07:49:47 PM »
The "governments will ban bitcoin" narrative gets weaker by the day it seems.

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/98916/hester-peirce-2021-turning-point-crypto-speech

Excerpt:

SEC commissioner Hester Peirce remarked during a virtual conference appearance last week that "evidence-based rulemaking is not yet the norm in crypto-regulation" as part of a wider exploration of the topic.

Peirce spoke on March 15 during an event organized by the British Blockchain Association. According to a transcript of her speech, Peirce once again outlined an expansive and positive viewpoint on cryptocurrencies, noting in her speech authorities perhaps spend too much time focusing on the "illicit" use of the technology compared to its potential benefits.

"Perhaps, government officials should pause to consider the flip side of crypto—its value in protecting people from illicit activity," Peirce said. "Because of its ability to reach people without intermediaries and its ease of storage, transport, and access, crypto can be an important part of the survival story of people living under the threat of harm by their families, people in their communities, or repressive governments."

This line of thinking, according to Peirce, is reflective of a broader issue in the realm of crypto regulation in the U.S. today:

"The disproportionate focus on illicit uses and the underestimation of the protective uses of crypto is one example of how evidence-based rulemaking is not yet the norm in crypto-regulation. We can do better, and I hope that this year will mark a turning point for the United States, which in turn may spur other countries similarly to take a more sensible approach to crypto regulation. The SEC faces several challenges and corresponding opportunities in regulating blockchain-based assets and technologies. While the specifics will not be the same for other jurisdictions, some of the general regulatory principles likely are applicable despite jurisdictional differences."

DaKini

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #520 on: March 22, 2021, 01:47:23 AM »
As i have read from the election programe of the green party here in germany, there are already plans in the drawer for the EZB to create a digital Euro.
The programme directly states that the government will not tolerate private cryptocurrencies to destabilize the financial markets, which, in my opinion reads as "as soon as we have the e-€, we will ban private cryptos" or something along that line. Maybe not directly ban, but at least hinder it from beeing adopted by regulated entities like banks.

Jacob F

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #521 on: March 22, 2021, 06:45:27 AM »
As i have read from the election programe of the green party here in germany, there are already plans in the drawer for the EZB to create a digital Euro.
The programme directly states that the government will not tolerate private cryptocurrencies to destabilize the financial markets, which, in my opinion reads as "as soon as we have the e-€, we will ban private cryptos" or something along that line. Maybe not directly ban, but at least hinder it from beeing adopted by regulated entities like banks.

This does not surprise me at all. This is right up the alley for the Green Party in Germany. No choice for the population, socialist policy mixed with green paint, together into the "alternativlose Fiskalunion". Germany has had several complete devaluations of their currency in the last 200 years. Lets see whether the Michel actually wakes up this time before its too late.

[a]bort

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #522 on: March 23, 2021, 09:39:34 AM »
Bitcoin might be a speculative bubble, but it will always have first mover advantage and be a poster child for blockchain tech, hard to say where it will be 10+ years from now. But I think even the stingiest of Bitcoin naysayers should re-evaluate their stance on other crypto currencies, there's a lot of potentially disruptive tech being built and they all issue a token to reward participants.

For example decentralized derivatives exchanges are just starting and growing. It's a big market. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization-2020/
I truly believe that people staking their money on DeFi platforms earning what we would now consider huge APYs will become the norm. Your Money or Your Life will need another rewrite.

I also see a huge opportunity in investing in the tokens for platforms that facilitate the NFT-ization of video game items.

My point is even if you don't see the value in bitcoin you shouldn't dismiss the entire space, there's lots of interesting projects that you can be an early investor in.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #523 on: March 23, 2021, 02:18:23 PM »
I also see a huge opportunity in investing in the tokens for platforms that facilitate the NFT-ization of video game items.

Can you expand on this? Are you suggesting that game developers will allow their players to use a blockchain to sell rare in-game items to other players? What's in it for the game developer? If they even wanted to condone the sale of in-game items (most don't), why would they prefer a blockchain to a centralized marketplace of their own making where they can profit from transaction fees?

GuitarStv

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #524 on: March 23, 2021, 02:46:57 PM »
Can you expand on this?

Seems to be the age old wisdom that in a gold rush the people who usually get rich are selling shovels.

[a]bort

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #525 on: March 23, 2021, 03:14:25 PM »
I also see a huge opportunity in investing in the tokens for platforms that facilitate the NFT-ization of video game items.

Can you expand on this? Are you suggesting that game developers will allow their players to use a blockchain to sell rare in-game items to other players? What's in it for the game developer? If they even wanted to condone the sale of in-game items (most don't), why would they prefer a blockchain to a centralized marketplace of their own making where they can profit from transaction fees?

A cut to the developer would be baked into the smart contract. I believe Enjin gives the developers 20% of all transactions. Imagine a truly unique one of a kind mount in World of Warcraft that was awarded to the first player to hit a level cap or something. It could be sold over and over again and each time Blizzard get's 20%. A centralized marketplace could be built to do this but AAA game studios do not have a good reputation when it comes to not screwing people over and I'm sure they have their own more practical reasons why they wouldn't build an exchange of their own (infrastructure, maintenance, government regulation).

effigy98

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #526 on: March 24, 2021, 12:48:50 AM »
Can you expand on this?

Seems to be the age old wisdom that in a gold rush the people who usually get rich are selling shovels.

True. I sold 20 video cards I bought 4 years ago for more than double what I paid for them yesterday on ebay. It is pretty insane times we live in... but there is no inflation... nothing to see here. CPI 2%... right...

effigy98

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #527 on: March 24, 2021, 12:54:30 AM »
This is great for crypto holders. I can finance something and pay zero taxes without selling down the crypto. I can get interest on my crypto paid from profits from the borrowers. The risk is you don't control your crypto while its on their platforms (not your keys). Up to 8% dividend is pretty amazing at blockfi and I have moved some in with no issues. Making enough to cover all bills in just interest. The only other source I have found with this kind of dividend and limited downside is NUSI (NASDAQ 100 collar strategy) which I use in ROTH which also can cover all bills. We have some great options to make consistent money in markets like these even if they go up and down.

Sounds like a great scheme to get rich.  And quick!

:P

Ya kind of like people of working age in the 80s when they got paid this thing called interest for over 8%, at a bank, for saving. I guess they were all get rich types too. Not all of us are that old and had those opportunities.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #528 on: March 24, 2021, 05:37:08 AM »
I also see a huge opportunity in investing in the tokens for platforms that facilitate the NFT-ization of video game items.
Apps sell in-game items, which generate money for the game developer.  An NFT means the player spends once, and uses the same item repeatedly - costing the developer money.  Players aren't going to pay double or triple for an item that can be used in 2-3 different games.

I also don't see the incentive for games to accept NFT game items found in their competitors games.  Rather than accept some complex arrangement to split the money, game developers will want to have only their own in-game items, and keep all the money spent.  Not really seeing their incentive to adopt NFT game items - at least, not long term.

Some game, like an IPO, will add "NFT game item" to it's description to draw more attention and money to the game.  But long term I expect them not to be used, since the financial incentives currently favor not using them.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #529 on: March 24, 2021, 06:00:51 AM »
A cut to the developer would be baked into the smart contract. I believe Enjin gives the developers 20% of all transactions. Imagine a truly unique one of a kind mount in World of Warcraft that was awarded to the first player to hit a level cap or something. It could be sold over and over again and each time Blizzard get's 20%. A centralized marketplace could be built to do this but AAA game studios do not have a good reputation when it comes to not screwing people over and I'm sure they have their own more practical reasons why they wouldn't build an exchange of their own (infrastructure, maintenance, government regulation).

A blockchain's sole benefit is to provide decentralization and immutability among that decentralized architecture. There is absolutely zero benefit that a blockchain provides when it comes to gaming. Video games are inherently centralized services. They're developed by a centralized entity, hosted by a centralized entity, paid to a centralized entity, etc. Name one single benefit that a blockchain can provide such an architecture. Nothing is stopping the developer from suddenly changing the in-game economy however they like even if they're using a blockchain. There are plenty of games today that have healthy in-game economies that also extend to the real world as well. Truly unique items are still developed in-house by the developer and supported by the developer and you don't need a blockchain to have such items in a game. You say that games studios don't have a good reputation, but adding a blockchain to a studio without a good reputation doesn't change anything here. Nothing is stopping that game studio from someday dropping support for any such system in their game. No, a blockchain will not provide any benefit here.

celerystalks

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #530 on: March 29, 2021, 09:03:35 PM »
And now nobody cares about bitcoin again. See you guys in 18-24 months for the next scheduled dump.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #531 on: March 29, 2021, 10:41:17 PM »
What if it isn't bitcoin that's the funny money.  What if the funny money is actually US$?  No wonder actual assets like property, stocks and bitcoin keep going up in value, we are valuing them in a rapidly devaluing currency that is being printed into oblivion. 

seattlecyclone

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #532 on: March 30, 2021, 12:56:52 AM »
What if it isn't bitcoin that's the funny money.  What if the funny money is actually US$?  No wonder actual assets like property, stocks and bitcoin keep going up in value, we are valuing them in a rapidly devaluing currency that is being printed into oblivion. 

Yes, US dollars are inflationary by design. That's why holding large quantities of them generally isn't considered a smart long-term decision. What's your point? It's not as though US dollars and Bitcoin are the only possible stores of value, and we need to pick one. "Neither" is a perfectly valid option.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #533 on: March 30, 2021, 01:41:18 AM »
What if it isn't bitcoin that's the funny money.  What if the funny money is actually US$?  No wonder actual assets like property, stocks and bitcoin keep going up in value, we are valuing them in a rapidly devaluing currency that is being printed into oblivion. 

Yes, US dollars are inflationary by design. That's why holding large quantities of them generally isn't considered a smart long-term decision. What's your point? It's not as though US dollars and Bitcoin are the only possible stores of value, and we need to pick one. "Neither" is a perfectly valid option.

What's my point?  Well I guess my point is it's hardly a surprise a supply-capped asset like bitcoin has increased rapidly in value vs the US$ in the last 12 months, something like 35% of all US$ have been created in that time, plucked out thin air.  Picking bitcoin is hardly a terrible choice, it's the best performed asset of the last decade after all.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #534 on: March 30, 2021, 05:37:39 AM »
What if it isn't bitcoin that's the funny money.  What if the funny money is actually US$?  No wonder actual assets like property, stocks and bitcoin keep going up in value, we are valuing them in a rapidly devaluing currency that is being printed into oblivion. 

Yes, US dollars are inflationary by design. That's why holding large quantities of them generally isn't considered a smart long-term decision. What's your point? It's not as though US dollars and Bitcoin are the only possible stores of value, and we need to pick one. "Neither" is a perfectly valid option.

Personally I feel that a monetary system that forces people to take unnecessary risk in order to prevent their hard earned work from being devalued away is a pretty crappy system that especially hurts the poorest population that can't afford to take that risk and/or have no opportunities to.

GuitarStv

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #535 on: March 30, 2021, 08:09:59 AM »
What if it isn't bitcoin that's the funny money.  What if the funny money is actually US$?  No wonder actual assets like property, stocks and bitcoin keep going up in value, we are valuing them in a rapidly devaluing currency that is being printed into oblivion. 

Yes, US dollars are inflationary by design. That's why holding large quantities of them generally isn't considered a smart long-term decision. What's your point? It's not as though US dollars and Bitcoin are the only possible stores of value, and we need to pick one. "Neither" is a perfectly valid option.

Personally I feel that a monetary system that forces people to take unnecessary risk in order to prevent their hard earned work from being devalued away is a pretty crappy system that especially hurts the poorest population that can't afford to take that risk and/or have no opportunities to.

That's kinda the purpose that a minimum wage serves though, isn't it?  It's a great equalizer.  As inflation eats away at the profits of the rich, the minimum wage is supposed to rise.  This should reduce the income inequality between the richest and the poorest.

Unless the richest band together to rail against the thought of increasing minimum wage.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #536 on: March 30, 2021, 08:36:02 AM »
That's kinda the purpose that a minimum wage serves though, isn't it?  It's a great equalizer.  As inflation eats away at the profits of the rich, the minimum wage is supposed to rise.  This should reduce the income inequality between the richest and the poorest.

Unless the richest band together to rail against the thought of increasing minimum wage.

Could you elaborate more on the bolded? Sure raw material and capital costs go up with inflation, but that is a secondary effect that occurs after monetary inflation takes place. First monetary inflation must take place by expanding the money supply, then once there is more money chasing fewer or the same amount of goods, then price inflation takes place. In the mean time you have the cantillon effect taking place where those with access to money first (the rich) receive the benefits of an expanding monetary supply before price inflation takes effect. Therefore all this benefits the rich in the end. Sure, minimum wage increases are great to help offset the impacts of price inflation on the poor, but this is always one of the last effects to take place in the economy long after monetary expansion has taken place.

That's all just domestically as well. That doesn't even touch upon the global impacts of said currency game theory in the sense that minimum wage increases in one location that are implemented to offset domestic price inflation simply drive the lower wage jobs elsewhere in the global economy where worker protections and fair trade isn't enforced as well as they are domestically. Obviously this goes beyond just monetary policy at this point and I'm not saying there are any easy answers either. But portraying minimum wage (even when keeping pace with price inflation) as the great equalizer in an inflationary monetary economy couldn't be further from the truth, IMHO.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #537 on: March 30, 2021, 12:45:56 PM »
What if it isn't bitcoin that's the funny money.  What if the funny money is actually US$?  No wonder actual assets like property, stocks and bitcoin keep going up in value, we are valuing them in a rapidly devaluing currency that is being printed into oblivion. 

Yes, US dollars are inflationary by design. That's why holding large quantities of them generally isn't considered a smart long-term decision. What's your point? It's not as though US dollars and Bitcoin are the only possible stores of value, and we need to pick one. "Neither" is a perfectly valid option.

Personally I feel that a monetary system that forces people to take unnecessary risk in order to prevent their hard earned work from being devalued away is a pretty crappy system that especially hurts the poorest population that can't afford to take that risk and/or have no opportunities to.

One could argue that the people living paycheck-to-paycheck are unaffected by inflation if their wages go up alongside their expenses. E.g. This year I earn $500/week and spend $500/week. In five years I earn $700/week and spend $700/week to live the same lifestyle.

The wealthy people (ahem) who have hoards of money stored away are the ones losing purchasing power, so they are hurt worse by inflation. An multi-year outbreak of high inflation would lower wealth inequality. Likewise, the last few decades of low inflation have allowed wealth inequality to expand.

GuitarStv

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #538 on: March 30, 2021, 01:08:05 PM »
What if it isn't bitcoin that's the funny money.  What if the funny money is actually US$?  No wonder actual assets like property, stocks and bitcoin keep going up in value, we are valuing them in a rapidly devaluing currency that is being printed into oblivion. 

Yes, US dollars are inflationary by design. That's why holding large quantities of them generally isn't considered a smart long-term decision. What's your point? It's not as though US dollars and Bitcoin are the only possible stores of value, and we need to pick one. "Neither" is a perfectly valid option.

Personally I feel that a monetary system that forces people to take unnecessary risk in order to prevent their hard earned work from being devalued away is a pretty crappy system that especially hurts the poorest population that can't afford to take that risk and/or have no opportunities to.

One could argue that the people living paycheck-to-paycheck are unaffected by inflation if their wages go up alongside their expenses. E.g. This year I earn $500/week and spend $500/week. In five years I earn $700/week and spend $700/week to live the same lifestyle.

The wealthy people (ahem) who have hoards of money stored away are the ones losing purchasing power, so they are hurt worse by inflation. An multi-year outbreak of high inflation would lower wealth inequality. Likewise, the last few decades of low inflation have allowed wealth inequality to expand.

Yes, this is basically the argument I was making.  For someone with no savings, inflation doesn't matter at all - as long as there's enough to eat.

Jacob F

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #539 on: March 30, 2021, 02:51:35 PM »
Yes, this is basically the argument I was making.  For someone with no savings, inflation doesn't matter at all - as long as there's enough to eat.

This is true, but only with some very basic mathematical assumptions of no savings for the poor and full inflation impact on the rich. The history of countries in hyperinflation shows that especially the poorest suffer most, as the wealthier people have ways to shield their wealth.

Bitcoin would be a way for the poor to be able to shield and hedge some of their income and savings as well. Payments in bitcoin also enable cross border labor transactions etc. that would further transform and democratize the global labor market as cross-border payments are no longer an issue.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #540 on: March 30, 2021, 02:57:29 PM »
Yes, this is basically the argument I was making.  For someone with no savings, inflation doesn't matter at all - as long as there's enough to eat.

There are several arguments I'd make as to why that isn't true. I already alluded to some earlier. But wage increases as a result of monetary supply expansion and the resulting price inflation are usually a result of several orders of effects after the fact. Therefore there has already been price inflation in the economy impacting their ability to put food on the table even when wage increases are being received.

Also, whether or not there is actual price inflation (that which CPI attempts to measure) does not mean there wasn't inflation in the economy (expanding money supply). There are many factors that come into play that determine whether or not you'll see price inflation. For example, high private debt levels, aging demographics, technology advances and productivity increases, wealth concentration, commodity oversupply, outsourcing, etc. These are all deflationary effects in the economy that can counteract an inflationary money supply. Many of these things are great things that are taking place in the economy, but whose impact on the economy is barely felt because of an expanding money supply. So when you have an inflationary money supply, that means you can have people advancing technology and productivity measures, but because of a greater supply of money (that the poor rarely are able to take advantage of), that means you have people developing these things and unable to capitalize on the greater good that these things can provide society. There should be no reason why we have such a high advancement in technology with people still working 40-50+ hour weeks just to barely put food on the table. Because we have an ever increasing supply of money, it is robbing people of today's productivity and technology advancements that could be used to provide them wealth in the future. If the supply of money were static, these deflationary forces would be felt to a much greater extent in the economy which means the work that today's lower-middle class puts in today would still have purchasing power into the future as well.

Saying that inflation doesn't matter at all ignores all the orders of effects that take place that lead up to price inflation. It is also important to distinguish between monetary inflation and price inflation of goods. One is the cause of the other. Also, even if price inflation isn't seen doesn't mean there hasn't been monetary inflation that still impacts people's lives even if it isn't directly felt in the price of goods. Saying that just because you're working 40 hours a week to earn $500 dollars and spend $500 dollars and then in the future that turns to $700 earned and spent on the same goods ignores the fact that you just spent years working 40 hours a week that went toward productivity advancements and technology improvements over time that, in all reality, should mean you shouldn't have to work as much for that same amount of money. This is ultimately where the poor lose out. Instead of them being the beneficiaries of their work, inflation robs them of this.

Meanwhile, with monetary inflation, that means that all scarce assets (stocks, real estate, precious metals, commodities, etc), rise in price and the rich who are highly invested in these asset classes can capitalize on these price increases. There is a reason why P/E ratios are out of whack and real estate prices are soaring. This is where wealth inequality is really exacerbated. The poor can't capitalize on these asset classes like the rich can. So the rich get richer, but the poor, who are really helping drive our economy with new tech and productivity, barely can get food on the table while continuing to work 40+ hours a week.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 02:59:28 PM by lifeanon269 »

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #541 on: March 30, 2021, 04:57:22 PM »
What if it isn't bitcoin that's the funny money.  What if the funny money is actually US$?  No wonder actual assets like property, stocks and bitcoin keep going up in value, we are valuing them in a rapidly devaluing currency that is being printed into oblivion. 

Yes, US dollars are inflationary by design. That's why holding large quantities of them generally isn't considered a smart long-term decision. What's your point? It's not as though US dollars and Bitcoin are the only possible stores of value, and we need to pick one. "Neither" is a perfectly valid option.

Personally I feel that a monetary system that forces people to take unnecessary risk in order to prevent their hard earned work from being devalued away is a pretty crappy system that especially hurts the poorest population that can't afford to take that risk and/or have no opportunities to.

That's kinda the purpose that a minimum wage serves though, isn't it?  It's a great equalizer.  As inflation eats away at the profits of the rich, the minimum wage is supposed to rise.  This should reduce the income inequality between the richest and the poorest.

Unless the richest band together to rail against the thought of increasing minimum wage.

Are you serious?  The dollar is devaluing and all this stimulus washing through the economy is flowing straight into asset prices like stocks, property and crypto.  The rich have made a killing out of this, meanwhile the poor get thrown a bone like $1400 and think they have a good deal.  The poor have been robbed and they don't even know it.  There is a huge wealth transfer going on where the rich are printing trillions of dollars and awarding it to themselves.

mjr

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #542 on: March 30, 2021, 05:49:32 PM »
Personally I feel that a monetary system that forces people to take unnecessary risk in order to prevent their hard earned work from being devalued away is a pretty crappy system that especially hurts the poorest population that can't afford to take that risk and/or have no opportunities to.

It's not perfect, but it's the best we have.

You're denigrating fiat money systems backed by the GDP of first-world nations because of "unnecessary risk" while advocating bitcoin ?!  That's beyond funny.

lifeanon269

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #543 on: March 30, 2021, 06:09:18 PM »
Personally I feel that a monetary system that forces people to take unnecessary risk in order to prevent their hard earned work from being devalued away is a pretty crappy system that especially hurts the poorest population that can't afford to take that risk and/or have no opportunities to.

It's not perfect, but it's the best we have.

You're denigrating fiat money systems backed by the GDP of first-world nations because of "unnecessary risk" while advocating bitcoin ?!  That's beyond funny.

I'm not one to let perfect be the enemy of good. So I'm not suggesting we scrap fiat currencies. And fiat currencies don't just exist in a first-world bubble. The US dollar is probably the least likely fiat currency to fail. That doesn't mean there won't (there has been) be a whole host of fiat currencies that do fail. 1.2 billion people in the world are experiencing double-digit inflation.

https://news.bitcoin.com/1-2-billion-people-live-under-double-digit-inflation-many-have-found-escape-in-bitcoin-says-hrfs-alex-gladstein/

Saying that's the best we have so there's no sense in seeking better options is ridiculous and fatalistic. I think it is OK if there are competing currencies out there (there always has been currency competition) and letting things play out. Let the risk takers take risk where they can afford to and let it all play out. I'm also not advocating for people who have little to no savings start putting money into bitcoin. I'm mustachian after all. Which, coincidentally is one of the reasons I am so pro-bitcoin. I feel bitcoin and frugality go hand-in-hand with that savings-first mentality.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #544 on: March 30, 2021, 06:52:23 PM »
You're denigrating fiat money systems backed by the GDP of first-world nations because of "unnecessary risk" while advocating bitcoin ?!  That's beyond funny.

There is more risk to not being in crypto than being in it.  This year I've turned 8k into 80k.  Limited downside, unlimited upside.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 06:55:26 PM by Trevor Reznik »

StashingAway

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #545 on: March 30, 2021, 06:55:31 PM »
There is more risk to not being in crypto than being in it.  This year I've turned 8k into 80k.  Limited downside, unlimited upside.

That's a silly way to ignore one of the basics of economics: opportunity cost. There's limited downside to putting 8k into anything. But you can't put 8k into everything.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #546 on: March 30, 2021, 06:58:00 PM »
There is more risk to not being in crypto than being in it.  This year I've turned 8k into 80k.  Limited downside, unlimited upside.

That's a silly way to ignore one of the basics of economics: opportunity cost. There's limited downside to putting 8k into anything. But you can't put 8k into everything.

But you can put 8k into the best performing asset of the last decade.  That's probably a good place to start.

GuitarStv

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #547 on: March 30, 2021, 07:36:58 PM »
There is more risk to not being in crypto than being in it.  This year I've turned 8k into 80k.  Limited downside, unlimited upside.

That's a silly way to ignore one of the basics of economics: opportunity cost. There's limited downside to putting 8k into anything. But you can't put 8k into everything.

But you can put 8k into the best performing asset of the last decade.  That's probably a good place to start.

Sounds like a great scheme to get rich!  And quick!

seattlecyclone

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #548 on: March 30, 2021, 11:30:30 PM »
There is more risk to not being in crypto than being in it.  This year I've turned 8k into 80k.  Limited downside, unlimited upside.

That's a silly way to ignore one of the basics of economics: opportunity cost. There's limited downside to putting 8k into anything. But you can't put 8k into everything.

But you can put 8k into the best performing asset of the last decade.  That's probably a good place to start.



In the past 20 years, we have not once had the same asset class on the top of this list two years in a row. As often as not, the top-performing asset class falls to the bottom half of the list the next year. The logic behind "buy this investment because it did great over the past few years" just doesn't hold up.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: Bitcoin is funny money
« Reply #549 on: March 31, 2021, 12:14:34 AM »
There is more risk to not being in crypto than being in it.  This year I've turned 8k into 80k.  Limited downside, unlimited upside.

That's a silly way to ignore one of the basics of economics: opportunity cost. There's limited downside to putting 8k into anything. But you can't put 8k into everything.

But you can put 8k into the best performing asset of the last decade.  That's probably a good place to start.



In the past 20 years, we have not once had the same asset class on the top of this list two years in a row. As often as not, the top-performing asset class falls to the bottom half of the list the next year. The logic behind "buy this investment because it did great over the past few years" just doesn't hold up.

That's a great chart but it looks like they've left Bitcoin off the list?  Do you have any idea why they would have done that?  Anyway I found an annual return chart for bitcoin.



So it looks like Bitcoin would have topped that list in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2019 and 2020.  Pretty amazing don't you think?