Author Topic: Australian Investing Thread  (Read 1253720 times)

limeandpepper

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4250 on: November 07, 2018, 03:26:21 AM »
Hey everyone, today I found out a friend is interested in investing, which is great! However, she doesn't seem to be ready for substantial chunks of investing (e.g. buying a few thousand dollars' worth each trade) so I suggested that she could look into those micro-investing apps. I haven't actually asked how much she saves regularly and how much she has in savings, but does that sound like a reasonable course of action to begin with? If so which micro-investing apps are best? I know of Raiz and Spaceship Voyager, which one is preferable, or is there something else better?

Andy R

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4251 on: November 07, 2018, 06:04:40 AM »
Investing bits of money into some random fund doesn't make you learn about the stock market. Learning about the stock market helps you learn about the stock market. Why not give her some learning resources to that she can take responsibility for her actions and own the results, by learning and make a decision for herself?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/
https://www.amazon.com/Million-Life-Make-Manage-Maximise-ebook/dp/B007DIAENU

Actually putting money in should be the last step and only when she has a reasonable fundamental understanding about the nature of the stock market, can decide an equities to bonds allocation, and a home country to international allocation, and have reasons listed for each decision and why she chose it over other options. Just my 2c.

marty998

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4252 on: November 07, 2018, 01:35:45 PM »
Investing bits of money into some random fund doesn't make you learn about the stock market. Learning about the stock market helps you learn about the stock market. Why not give her some learning resources to that she can take responsibility for her actions and own the results, by learning and make a decision for herself?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/
https://www.amazon.com/Million-Life-Make-Manage-Maximise-ebook/dp/B007DIAENU

Actually putting money in should be the last step and only when she has a reasonable fundamental understanding about the nature of the stock market, can decide an equities to bonds allocation, and a home country to international allocation, and have reasons listed for each decision and why she chose it over other options. Just my 2c.

Andy - this is too much even for me. If you expect people to know this before they invest then I'd hazard a guess only 1% of people should ever buy equities.

For most people a financial plan that involves a simple allocation to VAS and IVV, while paying down the mortgage and contributing a little extra to super, over 25 years, would be more than sufficient and generate a wonderful outcome, with absolutely no research at all.

steveo

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4253 on: November 07, 2018, 04:01:26 PM »
Investing bits of money into some random fund doesn't make you learn about the stock market. Learning about the stock market helps you learn about the stock market. Why not give her some learning resources to that she can take responsibility for her actions and own the results, by learning and make a decision for herself?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/
https://www.amazon.com/Million-Life-Make-Manage-Maximise-ebook/dp/B007DIAENU

Actually putting money in should be the last step and only when she has a reasonable fundamental understanding about the nature of the stock market, can decide an equities to bonds allocation, and a home country to international allocation, and have reasons listed for each decision and why she chose it over other options. Just my 2c.

Andy - this is too much even for me. If you expect people to know this before they invest then I'd hazard a guess only 1% of people should ever buy equities.

For most people a financial plan that involves a simple allocation to VAS and IVV, while paying down the mortgage and contributing a little extra to super, over 25 years, would be more than sufficient and generate a wonderful outcome, with absolutely no research at all.

It's good to read a bunch of information and I think those are really good links but I still think an allocation should be simple. Personally I think everyone should use VGS or something similar. The diversification is a lot more than using VAS.

You could even just do something like 50/50 VGS/VAS & save up a buffer in your savings account. That would work out great for money that is outside Super and assuming the mortgage is being paid down or paid off.

Andy R

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4254 on: November 07, 2018, 06:19:58 PM »
Investing bits of money into some random fund doesn't make you learn about the stock market. Learning about the stock market helps you learn about the stock market. Why not give her some learning resources to that she can take responsibility for her actions and own the results, by learning and make a decision for herself?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/
https://www.amazon.com/Million-Life-Make-Manage-Maximise-ebook/dp/B007DIAENU

Actually putting money in should be the last step and only when she has a reasonable fundamental understanding about the nature of the stock market, can decide an equities to bonds allocation, and a home country to international allocation, and have reasons listed for each decision and why she chose it over other options. Just my 2c.

Andy - this is too much even for me. If you expect people to know this before they invest then I'd hazard a guess only 1% of people should ever buy equities.

For most people a financial plan that involves a simple allocation to VAS and IVV, while paying down the mortgage and contributing a little extra to super, over 25 years, would be more than sufficient and generate a wonderful outcome, with absolutely no research at all.

Those links are not learning about stock picking or complex modelling. They explain very basic fundamental concepts like
The market can go anywhere in the short term and it's normal to do so, and if you can't handle a 10% 30% or even a 50% drop then you need to adjust your AA
Nobody knows where the market will go and anyone who does is worth walking away from
Indexing lets you accept that nobody knows which way it will go and still get the market return

These aren't complex topics, they're fundamental and very basic. They are also "need to know" pieces of the puzzle otherwise you could really end up suffering. I don't want to jump on the bandwagon of "warren says" but the reality is that you shouldn't invest in anything you don't understand, whether shares or property. It takes a little time to learn but honestly not that much. We're talking about half an hour a day over a few months. Just going out and buying some VAS is not the answer and it can get you into serious trouble imo. Say you buy some, after a year it moves up and down slightly, over the next years you keep adding but never learned about it and you see it as a "black box" of where you park money to invest a bit like a bank account, and one day the all over the media they are saying the market is crashing, it's in ever media article, on FB, everywhere you look, and in complete ignorance  you panic and sell at a time when the market is (only) at a 30% loss. If by then you had a few hundred k (not an unreasonable amount), you have just lost a hundred grand. How long does it take most people to recover a hundred grand in savings? 5 years you have been set back. This could have been so very easily avoided by just spending 20-30 minutes a day reading for a few months in the beginning.

limeandpepper

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4255 on: November 07, 2018, 08:38:58 PM »
Thanks everyone for the input!

It's good to read a bunch of information and I think those are really good links but I still think an allocation should be simple. Personally I think everyone should use VGS or something similar. The diversification is a lot more than using VAS.

You could even just do something like 50/50 VGS/VAS & save up a buffer in your savings account. That would work out great for money that is outside Super and assuming the mortgage is being paid down or paid off.

This was also my first thought (a combo of VGS and VAS). I mentioned that brokerage platforms are around $10/trade so she needs to invest a significant amount, like a few thousand, to make the brokerage fees worthwhile and she balked a little at that, hence why I suggested possibly looking into the micro-investing apps instead if she doesn't have that kind of substantial outlay, and she warmed more to that idea.

It takes a little time to learn but honestly not that much. We're talking about half an hour a day over a few months. Just going out and buying some VAS is not the answer and it can get you into serious trouble imo. Say you buy some, after a year it moves up and down slightly, over the next years you keep adding but never learned about it and you see it as a "black box" of where you park money to invest a bit like a bank account, and one day the all over the media they are saying the market is crashing, it's in ever media article, on FB, everywhere you look, and in complete ignorance  you panic and sell at a time when the market is (only) at a 30% loss. If by then you had a few hundred k (not an unreasonable amount), you have just lost a hundred grand. How long does it take most people to recover a hundred grand in savings? 5 years you have been set back. This could have been so very easily avoided by just spending 20-30 minutes a day reading for a few months in the beginning.

I also acknowledge that reading more about investing will help her in the long run, but agree with Marty in the sense that I have the feeling that reading half an hour a day over a few months is going to be more than she wants to take on. I'm thinking maybe just a few really short and simple articles that provides the basics of what to do and what to expect and how to stay the course and make the right decisions especially when the market gets shaky, if there's anything like that?

Andy R

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4256 on: November 07, 2018, 08:47:16 PM »
I also acknowledge that reading more about investing will help her in the long run, but agree with Marty in the sense that I have the feeling that reading half an hour a day over a few months is going to be more than she wants to take on. I'm thinking maybe just a few really short and simple articles that provides the basics of what to do and what to expect and how to stay the course and make the right decisions especially when the market gets shaky, if there's anything like that?

The jlcollinsnh (first) link I posted, though it's a series of articles not just one. I doubt a single article is going to have a meaningful impact.

mjr

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4257 on: November 07, 2018, 09:46:01 PM »
It is so important that she have some idea of into what she is getting, otherwise you can pretty much guarantee she'll blame you for "losing her money" at the next crash.

limeandpepper

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4258 on: November 08, 2018, 01:13:01 AM »
The jlcollinsnh (first) link I posted, though it's a series of articles not just one. I doubt a single article is going to have a meaningful impact.

Thanks, yeah that link seems to at least have everything in a list so she doesn't have to sift through threads in forums.

It is so important that she have some idea of into what she is getting, otherwise you can pretty much guarantee she'll blame you for "losing her money" at the next crash.

Yes I'm trying to be careful... I told her what I was personally doing (buying ETFs via an online brokerage platform) and I said that I hadn't used the micro-investing apps myself, only heard of them, and said that she should check the fees etc. before choosing one. I told her about diversifying with index funds and ETFs. We catch up reasonably regularly so I'll check in with her again soon and see where she's at.

flaky

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4259 on: November 08, 2018, 08:05:13 PM »
Hello,

Having read the stock series and some other financial self-help stuff like Barefoot and If You Can, I have recently bought a bunch of VTS shares. This seemed like the best bet for Australians wanting to replicate the strategy in jlcollinsnh Stock Series posts. I am looking to continue to invest a significant percent of my total income over the next 10 years, along with the quarterly dividend (there is no DRIP for this ETF). Is this a sensible strategy that wont really require adjustment until I retire? Are there any likely hurdles I should be aware of with regard to dividends or tax? There seems to be a preference for the Australian market ETF rather than US in this thread. Why is this?

Kind regards,
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:07:18 PM by flaky »

TJEH

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4260 on: November 09, 2018, 06:29:43 AM »
Hello,

Having read the stock series and some other financial self-help stuff like Barefoot and If You Can, I have recently bought a bunch of VTS shares. This seemed like the best bet for Australians wanting to replicate the strategy in jlcollinsnh Stock Series posts. I am looking to continue to invest a significant percent of my total income over the next 10 years, along with the quarterly dividend (there is no DRIP for this ETF). Is this a sensible strategy that wont really require adjustment until I retire? Are there any likely hurdles I should be aware of with regard to dividends or tax? There seems to be a preference for the Australian market ETF rather than US in this thread. Why is this?

Kind regards,

flaky, here are a couple of articles on ETF's and tax:

https://www.nestegg.com.au/tax/10332-how-are-etfs-taxed
https://www.nestegg.com.au/investing/10471-when-it-comes-to-your-etf-location-matters

VTS is domiciled in the US. Distributions are taxed at 30%, but if you fill out a W-8BEN form this can be reduced to 15%. This 15% can then be used as a tax offset when completing your tax return. There is also some uncertainty around estate taxes on US investments (i.e. a death tax).

As for whether it's a sensible strategy, you need to decide your level of Aus vs International exposure, and how you will achieve it. Many have gone for a combo of VTS and VEU in the past, however VGS is now favoured by many (it is domiciled in Aus).

TJEH

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4261 on: November 09, 2018, 06:33:01 AM »
I currently actively invest in VAS\VGS\MVW (I also hold VTS and VEU). I'm looking at investing for my kids, so I've taken another look at the options.

I will be setting up an account for each of them (in my name) and was hoping to keep it relatively simple. I looked at VDHG (Diversified High Growth Index Fund), it does tick a few boxes. For me, it would be better if it was 100% growth, but mostly I don't like the ~16% hedged component of VGS (performance quite a bit lower than non hedged component). I could go VAS\VGS\MVW, but don't know if I can be bothered with the admin across an additional two portfolios. Lazy of me....

Any better ideas?

I also occasionally wonder about just holding VTS (or perhaps IVV, being domiciled in AUS) instead of VGS or VEU for international exposure. VTS seems to have better long term returns.

mjr

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4262 on: November 09, 2018, 01:58:50 PM »
I consider the EU to be a basket case for business and put no money into it, so I stay away from VGS.  All my international exposure comes from VTS.

You need many millions in VTS to have to worry about death tax.  That said, if I have the luxury (?) of seeing death approach I'll be unwinding the VTS position because it'll be easier for me to do it than my heirs.

If Shorten's removal of franking credit refunds gets passed into legislation, a lot of money will be heading from ASX shares into VTS and VGS.

ianvestor

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4263 on: November 09, 2018, 09:12:51 PM »
Investing bits of money into some random fund doesn't make you learn about the stock market. Learning about the stock market helps you learn about the stock market. Why not give her some learning resources to that she can take responsibility for her actions and own the results, by learning and make a decision for herself?

https://jlcollinsnh.com/stock-series/
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/
https://www.amazon.com/Million-Life-Make-Manage-Maximise-ebook/dp/B007DIAENU

Actually putting money in should be the last step and only when she has a reasonable fundamental understanding about the nature of the stock market, can decide an equities to bonds allocation, and a home country to international allocation, and have reasons listed for each decision and why she chose it over other options. Just my 2c.

Andy - this is too much even for me. If you expect people to know this before they invest then I'd hazard a guess only 1% of people should ever buy equities.

For most people a financial plan that involves a simple allocation to VAS and IVV, while paying down the mortgage and contributing a little extra to super, over 25 years, would be more than sufficient and generate a wonderful outcome, with absolutely no research at all.

Those links are not learning about stock picking or complex modelling. They explain very basic fundamental concepts like
The market can go anywhere in the short term and it's normal to do so, and if you can't handle a 10% 30% or even a 50% drop then you need to adjust your AA
Nobody knows where the market will go and anyone who does is worth walking away from
Indexing lets you accept that nobody knows which way it will go and still get the market return

These aren't complex topics, they're fundamental and very basic. They are also "need to know" pieces of the puzzle otherwise you could really end up suffering. I don't want to jump on the bandwagon of "warren says" but the reality is that you shouldn't invest in anything you don't understand, whether shares or property. It takes a little time to learn but honestly not that much. We're talking about half an hour a day over a few months. Just going out and buying some VAS is not the answer and it can get you into serious trouble imo. Say you buy some, after a year it moves up and down slightly, over the next years you keep adding but never learned about it and you see it as a "black box" of where you park money to invest a bit like a bank account, and one day the all over the media they are saying the market is crashing, it's in ever media article, on FB, everywhere you look, and in complete ignorance  you panic and sell at a time when the market is (only) at a 30% loss. If by then you had a few hundred k (not an unreasonable amount), you have just lost a hundred grand. How long does it take most people to recover a hundred grand in savings? 5 years you have been set back. This could have been so very easily avoided by just spending 20-30 minutes a day reading for a few months in the beginning.

Well said Andy. A simple strategy is not necessarily easy to follow for a period of decades with all the temptations out there to change course. Especially for a beginner investor. Some basic reading to understand that falls of 50% in the U.S. major indices is quite possible along the long term journey is worthwhile. Also that there have been a few periods in the last century that the U.S. stock market has virtually done nothing over 15 - 20 years. When aware of such things it may substantially increase the chances of one sticking to their simple strategy.

Shaz_Au

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4264 on: November 19, 2018, 07:43:18 PM »
I currently actively invest in VAS\VGS\MVW (I also hold VTS and VEU). I'm looking at investing for my kids, so I've taken another look at the options.

I will be setting up an account for each of them (in my name) and was hoping to keep it relatively simple. I looked at VDHG (Diversified High Growth Index Fund), it does tick a few boxes. For me, it would be better if it was 100% growth, but mostly I don't like the ~16% hedged component of VGS (performance quite a bit lower than non hedged component). I could go VAS\VGS\MVW, but don't know if I can be bothered with the admin across an additional two portfolios. Lazy of me....

Any better ideas?

I also occasionally wonder about just holding VTS (or perhaps IVV, being domiciled in AUS) instead of VGS or VEU for international exposure. VTS seems to have better long term returns.

Have you looked into the LICs that offer dividend substitution share plans (AFI, WHF) or the Investment Bonds mentioned on Aussie Firebug's website?  the AFIC website has some reading to get you started and https://carpedividendum.com/ has a good post with further information about DSSP.

I know you will need to take care when setting up the accounts so that the beneficiary doesn't change when control is passed to your kids which, would otherwise be a CGT event.

Let us know what you end up deciding to do.

TJEH

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4265 on: November 24, 2018, 03:43:57 PM »
Shaz_Au, thanks, I have heard of the DSSP but need to read up to understand them.

Yes, also thinking of how to structure things as to who will hold the shares or funds I choose. I'm aware of the punitive tax imposed on minors for unearned income, so on one hand it seems like the only real option is to hold things in my name. In this case I believe I'll pay tax on income and there will be CGT when they pass to my kids. I have seen the option where you can purchase the shares on behalf of the kids, i.e you are the legal owner but you also nominate the minor with a designation A/C "minor name". In this case I believe there is no CGT event but it's not clear to me who pays the tax on the income. I've seen the ATO info at https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Investing/In-detail/Children-and-under-18s/Children-s-share-investments/ but it's not clear to me how this would work given this structure. I'm also looking at a testamentary trust, going to speak to someone about that this week.

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4266 on: November 26, 2018, 02:55:44 PM »
My understanding is that by using DSSP there is no income to declare, therefore no punitive tax or tax return required for the minors... The additional shares that are received through the dividend substitutions do affect the cost basis of the shares you purchased though.  The cost basis is instead spread across the shares purchased and those received as substitutions which, effectively lowers the cost basis of each share, meaning more CGT when/if the shares are sold.  Again this is just my understanding, please do your own reading.

TJEH

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4267 on: December 09, 2018, 03:12:32 AM »
Yes, that's my understanding too, thanks Shaz_Au.

mjr

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4268 on: December 09, 2018, 04:47:59 PM »
ASX tumbling again.  Going to be some good index fund bargains in the new year, methinks.

Trevor Reznik

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4269 on: December 09, 2018, 11:44:09 PM »
I wouldn't touch the ASX with a barge pole.  VGS every time crew.

PDM

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4270 on: December 09, 2018, 11:53:01 PM »
I wouldn't touch the ASX with a barge pole.  VGS every time crew.

Long term yes, day to day it gets hammered with wider ASX sentiment it seems. Down 2% today in line with wider market.

limeandpepper

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4271 on: Today at 12:24:30 AM »
Does anyone here buy VEQ or VAE and what others do you buy it with to form your portfolio?

marty998

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4272 on: Today at 02:21:53 AM »
ASX tumbling again.  Going to be some good index fund bargains in the new year, methinks.

I plopped $20k in last week into VAS @ $71.72 (got the low for the day).

Busted right through that today.

Funny though... I look at every stock in the top 20 and I'm struggling to see any that have fallen less than the 13% the index has in the last 2 months... seems CBA and BHP are holding up the entire market at the moment. Maybe WOW as well?

Scentre is up, but only after having fallen over 17% previously.

Looking forward to a massive VAS dividend & reinvestment in January. Should be a cracker with the BHP buyback, the bank and RIO divvies and a few other specials like the IAG capital management initiative.


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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4273 on: Today at 11:06:51 AM »
I'm currently putting money to work - placed another $10k of VGS and $10k of VAS orders today.  After not doing much the last 6 months (indeed selling down about $60k of SVWPA and GRB), I've put $60k back in within the last month - DUI, VAS, VGS.  I'll continue to average in if things continue to fall.  I'm funding this by drawing down from an offset (with the loan already being investment purposes so tax deductible).  Things are starting to look like value to me - albeit having a lot further that they could fall.

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4274 on: Today at 11:30:28 AM »
Man I wish I was as smart at this as you guys. Im changing my strategy and putting the bulk of my money in a HISA to save up for a possible deposit for a place in Sydney (nothing crazy, a 2 bed flat under $650 in Dulwich Hill would be great!). I have a Lifestratefy fund but not sure what I should do? Just leave it and maybe add $1000 a month. If I have that it doesnt make sense to get VAS or VGS separately does it?

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4275 on: Today at 06:13:30 PM »
I'm sitting on quite a lot of cash right now, but will probably invest it over the next few months.

We could have some large renovation costs coming up over the next 18 months, but at this point it probably makes more sense to invest the cash and fund the renovation from our offset.

@MrThatsDifferent - the transport options to the city are pretty good from Dulwich Hill, and there are quite a few apartments going up in the area (particularly if you include Canterbury, etc).  I would expect that a lot of the existing stock would be available at $650k or under?  I'm not sure that I would be rushing to buy right now, although I clearly think that of all asset classes.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #4276 on: Today at 07:55:06 PM »
I'm sitting on quite a lot of cash right now, but will probably invest it over the next few months.

We could have some large renovation costs coming up over the next 18 months, but at this point it probably makes more sense to invest the cash and fund the renovation from our offset.

@MrThatsDifferent - the transport options to the city are pretty good from Dulwich Hill, and there are quite a few apartments going up in the area (particularly if you include Canterbury, etc).  I would expect that a lot of the existing stock would be available at $650k or under?  I'm not sure that I would be rushing to buy right now, although I clearly think that of all asset classes.

Im thinking a year from now, but that means not investing that for the year. I get the idea that everything is a bargain now, but I just hate seeing my money disappear.