Author Topic: Australian Investing Thread  (Read 786303 times)

Fresh Bread

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 915
  • Location: Australia
  • Insert dough/bread/crust joke
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2850 on: March 05, 2017, 07:41:29 PM »
Criteria include not being able to tap into super. BigChrisB is not FIRE yet. The others I can think of were able to tap into super equivalents of various types. There is only one I can think of who may fit the criteria. I retired several years before I received super, but used my savings until then, so I probably don't count either.

I'm FI, but not RE (yet).   I'll add to the other thread.

Thanks!

FFA

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 522
    • Financially Free Australia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2851 on: March 06, 2017, 03:11:30 AM »
We were FI early/mid 30's, FIRE 37... But it never really went to "plan" I was immediately part-time consulting, which has now morphed into part-time work.... AA is on the inactive blog somewhere!

I looked at your blog! It had a 65/35 split between stocks, ETFs and cash/term deposits.

Yes, I had a FU moment and left my job a while back. We weren't FIRE but our basic needs were covered and I was going to stay home for a bit. Ended up setting up a business and working 40 hr weeks or more & we can never take holidays. Lesson learned for actual FIRE - try not to earn money.
Yeah I'm still sticking to 2/3 growth and 1/3 defensive. But that's the allocation for my non-property portfolio (which is roughly half the net worth excluding PPOR). I still have three investment properties too, which I gradually want to get rid of. Unfortunately they are not on the east coast!

Eucalyptus

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Location: South Australia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2852 on: March 06, 2017, 05:41:35 PM »
We were FI early/mid 30's, FIRE 37... But it never really went to "plan" I was immediately part-time consulting, which has now morphed into part-time work.... AA is on the inactive blog somewhere!

I looked at your blog! It had a 65/35 split between stocks, ETFs and cash/term deposits.

Yes, I had a FU moment and left my job a while back. We weren't FIRE but our basic needs were covered and I was going to stay home for a bit. Ended up setting up a business and working 40 hr weeks or more & we can never take holidays. Lesson learned for actual FIRE - try not to earn money.
Yeah I'm still sticking to 2/3 growth and 1/3 defensive. But that's the allocation for my non-property portfolio (which is roughly half the net worth excluding PPOR). I still have three investment properties too, which I gradually want to get rid of. Unfortunately they are not on the east coast!

Don't we all wish we outright owned an inner Sydney one bedroom shoebox...we'd all be FIREd ;-)

Eucalyptus

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Location: South Australia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2853 on: March 06, 2017, 08:41:26 PM »
I don't have any right now, but with VGS...
"with net dividends reinvested"...does that mean that there are no Australian tax implications of the dividends, Ie, it won't increase my Aus taxable income? Sorry, this is probably answered up-thread.

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5847
  • Location: At Home
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2854 on: March 06, 2017, 08:48:29 PM »
I don't have any right now, but with VGS...
"with net dividends reinvested"...does that mean that there are no Australian tax implications of the dividends, Ie, it won't increase my Aus taxable income? Sorry, this is probably answered up-thread.
Your taxable income will increase.

Notch

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Gladstone, QLD, Australia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2855 on: March 07, 2017, 02:35:32 AM »
I don't have any right now, but with VGS...
"with net dividends reinvested"...does that mean that there are no Australian tax implications of the dividends, Ie, it won't increase my Aus taxable income? Sorry, this is probably answered up-thread.

VGS pays dividends every quarter, that you will need to pay tax on. The "with net dividends reinvested" refers to the benchmark index Vanguard is trying to match in performance.

"Vanguard MSCI Index International Shares ETF seeks to track the return of the MSCI World ex-Australia (with net dividends reinvested), in Australian dollars Index, before taking into account fees, expenses and tax."
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 02:37:54 AM by Notch »

misterhorsey

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2856 on: March 08, 2017, 10:13:03 PM »
I'm unlucky enough to be shareholder in Contango Microcap, a small LIC targeting small cap companies.  When I pushed a lot of my money into indexes I thought I'd put a small amount into an active investment manager just for larfs, and I thought one area where it might be interesting would be the small cap space.

Anyhoo, someone way back asked what the difference was between ETFs and LICs?

LICs are generally an active managed fund overseen by a fund manager. Which may be internal or outsourced. One key issue is that the active management of LIC's can make them subject to governance risk.  Fist fights and powerplays between the investment managers, unhappy shareholders, fighting for control over funds under management.

By comparison, you'd think the remit of an index is pretty straightforward (i.e. Replicate the index. ) and the relatively low fees they charge wouldn't make active management sustainable.

So this is what's happening at CTN at the moment.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/extraordinary-battle-under-way-at-contango-microcap-20170302-gup7ot.html

The price is depressed at the moment due to underperformance, but no doubt also due to the current uncertainty.  It may resolve itself eventually but I'm wishing I'd just shoved the whole thing into a index.

Hunter Hall is another weird one.

http://www.afr.com/business/banking-and-finance/financial-services/hunter-hall-lic-saga-a-lesson-for-listed-invested-companies-everywhere-20170308-gutnrj

marty998

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2857 on: March 09, 2017, 12:02:55 AM »
Mmm... yeah Hunter Hall will make a good university Corporate Governance case study one day.

I wrote a post earlier in the thread about exceptional low volatility in the ASX the past couple of months. Since then, the markets have been even less volatile.

Should we just close the ASX and all come back in August for the next reporting season?


misterhorsey

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2858 on: March 09, 2017, 01:38:55 PM »
I don't understand many things about what happened to Hunter Hall but what i really don't understand is why an Ethical Fund Manager, with an environmental screen, chose to sell to Soul Pattinson who have as a keystone part of their assets New Hope Coal. Weird. And shortchanges all those who would have chosen HH as their investment fund for enviro reasons (not that I agree with ethical investment as a effective way of bringing about enviro/progressive social change).

fucash

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Age: 26
  • Location: Melbourne
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2859 on: March 09, 2017, 10:36:30 PM »
Looking to become a little more active on the forums, particularly with the Aus crowd as we have a slightly different context than the majority of the board (US [Europe?]). This thread seems particularly active! I hope I'm not being to misc with the below.

I completed my first purchase of an ETF today in VGS. I'll also be picking up another packet ($5k) of VAS come next week.
Looking at the short term SP, I only wish I completed this trade at the start of the year! VGS has had a nice run in 2017.

My background has been in gambling (see also: trying to pick stock myself :p ) and with some ridiculous luck, I've managed to come out quite profitable -- overall, double digit returns (including the losses I incurred). However, stock picking is stressful, risky and tends to mess with your personal confidence gauge on both sides of the scale.

While, I'll continue to allocate a very small portion of portfolio to some more speculative stock (maybe medicinal marijuana), my strategy will be focussing on ETF's for now. The next few months will see me most likely selling off my profitable stocks and re-investing back into VGS or VAS. 


----

Current Assets
Cash: ~37%  - 1 year of gross income. I'll be topping this up with around 30% of my 35% savings rate.
Shares:  ~50% - As above, looking to consolidate into ETF's with 1 or 2 hand-picked stocks. Re-investment will be the remaining 70% of my 35% savings rate.

Bitcoin [BTC]: ~13% - Majority of this is profit, I did NOT invest 13% of my wealth in this.

Non-Current Assets
Super: ~35k - So far, I haven't mad any contributions to this. I'll be potentially swapping to AusSuper after reading this thread.

Liabilites
HECS:~25k - Debating on whether or not to pay outright, it doesn't seem like I get too much benefit from doing so.
 


----

Future?

To have 'fucash'. The ability to say 'f u' means not being a slave to a job, person, bank, or whatever *strictly due to money*.

I'm interested/work in Tech, and have been riding the BTC wave for a while now (since 2012). Ultimately, this is something I'll be keeping a close eye on as well as other cryptocurrencies.

Some fin-tech stuff in Aus interested me originally, but after much due dilligence, don't seem worth it. These were things such as AcornsAU [as opposed to buying ETFs] and Spaceship [marketed as a 'tech' Superannuation company].

Currently, property is not something I've explored as an <30 single person in Melbourne.

Today, I saved myself nearly $2k. I discontinued my $115/month Private Healthcover after much research (~$1.4k/year). I've also downgraded my phone plan to by $40 to $40/month ($480).

I can only hope that my choices are somewhat rational and that they pay off (literally) in the future.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 10:52:24 PM by fucash »

marty998

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2860 on: March 10, 2017, 01:54:14 AM »
Hopefully you won't get hit with the medicare levy surcharge for dropping private health cover. $1400 a year is quite high for a single. You should be able to get basic hospital and extras for less than $1000.

andystkilda

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 148
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2861 on: March 10, 2017, 02:29:43 AM »
Are there any FIRE Australian's reading this thread who might share their allocation? Especially if they pulled the plug many years from being able to tap super?

We FIRE'd last August at 28/29 with 2 toddlers. I have super in my net worth calculations but in terms of access or an income source, I view it as pretty much non-existant given how far away the preservation age is (and almost certainly will be further raised).

All our assets are in high-yielding, fully-furnished 2-bedroom apartments (St Kilda, VIC) and most of the rest is in RateSetter right now mostly based of their ease-of-use.

fucash

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • Age: 26
  • Location: Melbourne
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2862 on: March 10, 2017, 10:33:47 PM »
Hopefully you won't get hit with the medicare levy surcharge for dropping private health cover. $1400 a year is quite high for a single. You should be able to get basic hospital and extras for less than $1000.

I think I can get the basic hospital and extras for ~$900 with Bupa. I'll look into it.

itchyfeet

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2863 on: March 11, 2017, 08:12:40 AM »
Ok, I know this is not a property forum..... but my biggest amd riskiest investment is my Sydney house.... and I need to sell soonish..... well next 3 years anyways.... so I am reflecting on it.... you are free to ignore me if you are sick of Sydney realestate fixations :-p

So looking at this weeks results, a strong 83% clearance and $1.267 median.

http://www.auhouseprices.com/auction/results/NSW/2017-03-11/

Stronger and higher than last week, but when I look back 12 months to the same weekend last year the median auction price was $1.230m.

http://www.homesearchsolutions.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Auction-Results-Saturday-12th-March.pdf

So from an unreliably small sample size, price growth over 12 months is a modest 3%.

This is fine by me at this point. Perfect even. Just keep ticking upwards.

If I add my 2.5% net rental return to 3% capital gains, I am perfectly happy with 5.5% total.

$115K in gains. less the $25K or so interest and maybe $15K tax after some depn deductions and it'll be another $75K in the bank and shifted  to non residential property investments.

Here's hoping for 3% capital gain over the next year. A white knuckle ride!




AussieLad

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2864 on: March 13, 2017, 04:43:27 PM »
Hi guys/gals,

Have been reading the forums and other ER websites for the last 2-3 months and learning as much as possible.
Most of my family/friends are all in the "save $$, buy a house" mindset - so a lot of these ideas are newish to me.

Have a couple of questions, that I'm hoping the more experienced folk might be able to shed some light on.
Have approximately $50k sitting in a savings account I'm looking at investing instead....

1) Does seem like a common consensus is that a 50-50 split between VAS and VGS is deemed a good starting point.
What is the reasoning behind such a large percentage in Aussie shares? I'm assuming there must be some benefits (tax/franking etc) for buying local?

2) Once the decision to purchase the ETF is made, how exactly does one go about it?
From what I gather, you need to sign up to an online broker. Is there a preference as to which ones people here use?
Again, this would be new to me, though I'm sure it can't be that hard to work out hehe :P

mjr

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Brisbane, Qld
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2865 on: March 13, 2017, 09:40:20 PM »
1) Does seem like a common consensus is that a 50-50 split between VAS and VGS is deemed a good starting point.
What is the reasoning behind such a large percentage in Aussie shares? I'm assuming there must be some benefits (tax/franking etc) for buying local?

2) Once the decision to purchase the ETF is made, how exactly does one go about it?
From what I gather, you need to sign up to an online broker. Is there a preference as to which ones people here use?
Again, this would be new to me, though I'm sure it can't be that hard to work out hehe :P

A high percentage of Australian shares for Australian residents is often justified by no currency risk and the benefits received via franking credits.

Yes, common wisdom these days seems to be to purchase VGS for international exposure.  That said, I stick with VTS instead because of its 0.05% MER and I don't think much of the Japanese and European markets these days and I'm looking forward to seeing how the US is going to go business-wise under Trump.

Yes, to purchase ETFs you need a broker.  Your main bank will have one.  Fees (especially brokerage) are what you want to look at.  I use Westpac which has a $19.95/0.11% minimum and that means my trades are normally around $20,000 minimum in order to keep brokerage low.  If your trades are going to be less than that amount, you'll want to look for a broker with smaller fees for the amount you expect to trade.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 09:42:45 PM by mjr »

marty998

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2866 on: March 14, 2017, 01:30:37 AM »
Ok, I know this is not a property forum..... but my biggest amd riskiest investment is my Sydney house.... and I need to sell soonish..... well next 3 years anyways.... so I am reflecting on it.... you are free to ignore me if you are sick of Sydney realestate fixations :-p

So looking at this weeks results, a strong 83% clearance and $1.267 median.

http://www.auhouseprices.com/auction/results/NSW/2017-03-11/

Stronger and higher than last week, but when I look back 12 months to the same weekend last year the median auction price was $1.230m.

http://www.homesearchsolutions.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Auction-Results-Saturday-12th-March.pdf

So from an unreliably small sample size, price growth over 12 months is a modest 3%.

This is fine by me at this point. Perfect even. Just keep ticking upwards.

If I add my 2.5% net rental return to 3% capital gains, I am perfectly happy with 5.5% total.

$115K in gains. less the $25K or so interest and maybe $15K tax after some depn deductions and it'll be another $75K in the bank and shifted  to non residential property investments.

Here's hoping for 3% capital gain over the next year. A white knuckle ride!

Ignore auction clearance rates and ignore medians... Auctions tend to happen in the more desirable areas (East, North) and agents have a habit of simply not reporting auctions that are passed in. So you get the double benefit of higher value properties going to auction, and not hearing any bad news, both influencing the figures.

I don't for a second believe the auction clearance figures, but generally the marked is pushing far above what one could consider normal.


marty998

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2867 on: March 14, 2017, 01:34:08 AM »
Commsec quietly removed the $10 margin loan transaction fee last August. Had no idea till I saw it earlier this month.

For over 10 years I've been paying (and then claiming on tax) that $10 fee per trade. Will be a substantial benefit going forward...

Notch

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Gladstone, QLD, Australia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2868 on: March 14, 2017, 05:16:02 AM »
Commsec quietly removed the $10 margin loan transaction fee last August. Had no idea till I saw it earlier this month.

For over 10 years I've been paying (and then claiming on tax) that $10 fee per trade. Will be a substantial benefit going forward...

Ahhh awesome! I was wondering why they didn't charge it the other day.

Luckyvik

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 174
  • Age: 47
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2869 on: March 14, 2017, 06:02:36 AM »
Ok, I know this is not a property forum..... but my biggest amd riskiest investment is my Sydney house.... and I need to sell soonish..... well next 3 years anyways.... so I am reflecting on it.... you are free to ignore me if you are sick of Sydney realestate fixations :-p

So looking at this weeks results, a strong 83% clearance and $1.267 median.



Stronger and higher than last week, but when I look back 12 months to the same weekend last year the median auction price was $1.230m.

http://www.homesearchsolutions.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Auction-Results-Saturday-12th-March.pdf

So from an unreliably small sample size, price growth over 12 months is a modest 3%.

This is fine by me at this point. Perfect even. Just keep ticking upwards.

If I add my 2.5% net rental return to 3% capital gains, I am perfectly happy with 5.5% total.

$115K in gains. less the $25K or so interest and maybe $15K tax after some depn deductions and it'll be another $75K in the bank and shifted  to non residential property investments.

Here's hoping for 3% capital gain over the next year. A white knuckle ride!

Ignore auction clearance rates and ignore medians... Auctions tend to happen in the more desirable areas (East, North) and agents have a habit of simply not reporting auctions that are passed in. So you get the double benefit of higher value properties going to auction, and not hearing any bad news, both influencing the figures.

I don't for a second believe the auction clearance figures, but generally the marked is pushing far above what one could consider normal.

I went to 3 auctions last weekend in the inner west, one was passed in (had no bidders at all) and the other 2 sold, yet only one was reported on the auction results from last weekend, so I can see that auction results cannot be relied upon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cakie

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 141
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Australia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2870 on: March 14, 2017, 01:15:11 PM »
Hi guys/gals,

Have been reading the forums and other ER websites for the last 2-3 months and learning as much as possible.
Most of my family/friends are all in the "save $$, buy a house" mindset - so a lot of these ideas are newish to me.

Have a couple of questions, that I'm hoping the more experienced folk might be able to shed some light on.
Have approximately $50k sitting in a savings account I'm looking at investing instead....

1) Does seem like a common consensus is that a 50-50 split between VAS and VGS is deemed a good starting point.
What is the reasoning behind such a large percentage in Aussie shares? I'm assuming there must be some benefits (tax/franking etc) for buying local?

2) Once the decision to purchase the ETF is made, how exactly does one go about it?
From what I gather, you need to sign up to an online broker. Is there a preference as to which ones people here use?
Again, this would be new to me, though I'm sure it can't be that hard to work out hehe
CMC is pretty popular for its $11 fee. I use westpac for the convenience (my bank), and buy in $5k minimums. Often your bank will do a deal for 1st month, eg. With westpac i got 1st month free brokerage, so i bought into all the ETFs i wanted in small amounts ($1-2k) to get started.

potm

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2871 on: March 15, 2017, 05:57:18 AM »
Commsec quietly removed the $10 margin loan transaction fee last August. Had no idea till I saw it earlier this month.

For over 10 years I've been paying (and then claiming on tax) that $10 fee per trade. Will be a substantial benefit going forward...

They are also the only ones I know of who charged this ridiculous fee. Must finally be losing market share.

alexrahr

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2872 on: March 15, 2017, 09:57:38 AM »
Sorry if this is a question that has been asked before, but how do we invest in the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund that "tracks the entire US stock market index" as Australians?

I noticed there is vanguard.com.au - is this a different thing?

misterhorsey

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2873 on: March 15, 2017, 02:45:42 PM »
Join an online broker and buy the following ETF (Exchange Traded Fund):

https://www.vanguardinvestments.com.au/retail/ret/investments/product.html#/fundDetail/etf/portId=0970/?overview

Note, that fund is domiciled in the US. So any dividends will come to you in US dollars. Which can be a bit of an admin issue.

But there are other options you may wish to consider as well.  Like the International (ex Aus) ETF:

https://www.vanguardinvestments.com.au/retail/ret/investments/product.html#/fundDetail/etf/portId=8212/?overview

Or the retail managed funds:

https://www.vanguardinvestments.com.au/retail/ret/investments/product.html#/productType=retail

dystopic

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2874 on: March 15, 2017, 11:52:58 PM »
Quick question for those who have Vanguard wholesale fund - do any of you typically contribute (BPAY) less than $5000?

Being able to contribute easily is probably the main advantage of managed fund over ETF but the minimum additional investment for WS is $5,000 according to PDS. I called Vanguard and they were pretty grey about it (probably not wanting to encourage it). Thanks!

rocking the suburbs

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2875 on: March 16, 2017, 06:01:51 AM »
I have been able to BPay 1k per month into the wholesale funds without Vanguard blinking an eye.
Just do it! It's been ridiculously easy. I initially set up my account with a total buy in of 100k split between the Oz & International funds.

misterhorsey

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2876 on: March 16, 2017, 04:27:01 PM »
Yep I dripfeed my dividends into wholesale as they come in.  Sometimes I wait until I have a reasonable amount just to save the hassle on the other side, as it will be a pain to do calculations on too many small amounts if I need withdraw some money from the fund. But I've done below 1k.

bigchrisb

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1004
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2877 on: March 16, 2017, 05:13:24 PM »
Another interest rate rise for debt holders from NAB yesterday, increasing rates for both investors and PPOR lending.  How do people on here feel about interest rates? 

I'm finding as I've moved closer to FIRE, I'm getting excited about rates going up, where as a few years ago (and with higher debt levels) I was excited by rates going down.  I see it as exciting for three reasons:
a) We seem to be in a bit of an asset bubble (certainly a resi and commercial property bubble, AU equities less so), and I'd like to see these asset prices come back to earth, as I'm reluctant to purchase at these levels
b) Rising rates are generally correlated with economic expansion
c) I've shied away from fixed income for a long time, as I've seen the yields as below inflation in post-tax terms.  I've also not felt the need for them the early/mid accumulation phases. However, if rates rose substantively, I'd look at shifting asset allocation a little to include some fixed income.

For me, this is a total turnaround in attitude from 3 years ago.  What's the general feeling towards rising rates for the AU moustachians?  A good thing?  A bad thing?  Indifferent?

nofriends

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Location: Queensland
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2878 on: March 16, 2017, 08:09:07 PM »
I'm unlucky enough to be shareholder in Contango Microcap, a small LIC targeting small cap companies.  When I pushed a lot of my money into indexes I thought I'd put a small amount into an active investment manager just for larfs, and I thought one area where it might be interesting would be the small cap space.

...

So this is what's happening at CTN at the moment.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/extraordinary-battle-under-way-at-contango-microcap-20170302-gup7ot.html

The price is depressed at the moment due to underperformance, but no doubt also due to the current uncertainty.  It may resolve itself eventually but I'm wishing I'd just shoved the whole thing into a index.


I'm with you in the CTN boat.

Have been trying to follow the recent rout and evaluate the way to vote at the EGM. Made my mind up recently - will support the current board and vote against all resolutions. I understand this EGM and vote results will be quite important for the future of the company and the direction it takes going forward.

happy

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3610
  • Location: NSW Australia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2879 on: March 16, 2017, 11:08:06 PM »
Another interest rate rise for debt holders from NAB yesterday, increasing rates for both investors and PPOR lending.  How do people on here feel about interest rates? 

I'm finding as I've moved closer to FIRE, I'm getting excited about rates going up, where as a few years ago (and with higher debt levels) I was excited by rates going down.  I see it as exciting for three reasons:
a) We seem to be in a bit of an asset bubble (certainly a resi and commercial property bubble, AU equities less so), and I'd like to see these asset prices come back to earth, as I'm reluctant to purchase at these levels
b) Rising rates are generally correlated with economic expansion
c) I've shied away from fixed income for a long time, as I've seen the yields as below inflation in post-tax terms.  I've also not felt the need for them the early/mid accumulation phases. However, if rates rose substantively, I'd look at shifting asset allocation a little to include some fixed income.

For me, this is a total turnaround in attitude from 3 years ago.  What's the general feeling towards rising rates for the AU moustachians?  A good thing?  A bad thing?  Indifferent?

Agree. Its a good thing. Good thing for savers. Probably even a good thing for struggling first home buyers, if only they realise it: by slowing house prices down.
Journalling at Happy Aussie Downshifter

hodor

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 56
  • Location: Aus
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2880 on: March 16, 2017, 11:12:17 PM »
Another interest rate rise for debt holders from NAB yesterday, increasing rates for both investors and PPOR lending.  How do people on here feel about interest rates? 

...

For me, this is a total turnaround in attitude from 3 years ago.  What's the general feeling towards rising rates for the AU moustachians?  A good thing?  A bad thing?  Indifferent?

Rates are low enough, as someone with leveraged property ~40% fixed,  I would be happy to see them raise 25-50 points a year for 2-4 years to get back to more reasonable levels. Hopefully this would slow the property market without too much panic and pain.

Still on the whole I am fairly indifferent to rates, not something I can control.

steveo

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2881 on: March 17, 2017, 12:25:53 AM »
Another interest rate rise for debt holders from NAB yesterday, increasing rates for both investors and PPOR lending.  How do people on here feel about interest rates? 

I'm finding as I've moved closer to FIRE, I'm getting excited about rates going up, where as a few years ago (and with higher debt levels) I was excited by rates going down.  I see it as exciting for three reasons:
a) We seem to be in a bit of an asset bubble (certainly a resi and commercial property bubble, AU equities less so), and I'd like to see these asset prices come back to earth, as I'm reluctant to purchase at these levels
b) Rising rates are generally correlated with economic expansion
c) I've shied away from fixed income for a long time, as I've seen the yields as below inflation in post-tax terms.  I've also not felt the need for them the early/mid accumulation phases. However, if rates rose substantively, I'd look at shifting asset allocation a little to include some fixed income.

For me, this is a total turnaround in attitude from 3 years ago.  What's the general feeling towards rising rates for the AU moustachians?  A good thing?  A bad thing?  Indifferent?

I think rates have been too low for a long time but it's pretty hard to have high rates when the rest of the world has low rates. It just pushes our currency up. I'm basically indifferent to it though.

nofriends

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Location: Queensland
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2882 on: March 17, 2017, 12:52:16 AM »

marty998

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2883 on: March 17, 2017, 02:27:44 AM »
Yeah we're going back to the days in the 90s when Investor rates were a full % point above the owner occupier rate.

I'm half fixed (at 4.89%) so I won't wear any pain for a while. But I think it's about time to start deleveraging anyway. If the federal budget pump primes the housing market for one last gasp growth spurt then I'll seriously consider selling, even if I still have 2 years to go on my fixed rate and need to break it. If the market stalls now then I'm still happy to hold through the cycle.

Rates need to rise. It creates distortions and misallocations of capital when they are held too low for too long. You don't really want too many marginal projects in an economy... just leads to a crash & hard landing.

mjr

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Brisbane, Qld
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2884 on: March 17, 2017, 04:08:52 AM »
It was only 5 years ago we had term deposit rates of 7%.  Those were the days, 7% return with practically zero risk.  I could retire tomorrow if rates were like that.

Of course, it could be worse.  5 years older and I might have retired 5 years ago, only to be sweating over the drop from 7% to 2%.

Rates are too, too low, the world over.  I'm thrilled to see them finally head back up.

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5847
  • Location: At Home
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2885 on: March 17, 2017, 04:11:19 AM »
Very low interest rates have meant very low wages growth and inflation. Higher interest rates will probably increase the other two.

potm

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2886 on: March 17, 2017, 04:52:03 AM »
It was only 5 years ago we had term deposit rates of 7%.  Those were the days, 7% return with practically zero risk.  I could retire tomorrow if rates were like that.

Of course, it could be worse.  5 years older and I might have retired 5 years ago, only to be sweating over the drop from 7% to 2%.

Rates are too, too low, the world over.  I'm thrilled to see them finally head back up.

As Deborah mentioned higher interest rates are usually accompanied by higher inflation so you aren't getting a real 7% return.
Falling interest rates is the best thing that can happen to you once you have finished accumulating growth assets. If all your money is in cash...well then that's not too good for you.

The returns achieved over the last 30 years or so have been aided by the significant falls in interest rates. We won't have this over the next 30 years and there may be a drag from significantly rising interest rates (although governments and central banks have shown their willingness to do whatever it takes to not let us enter a great depression, so I don't expect significant raises without significant improvements in the economy). We will need population growth, greater participation in the global economy by people in developing countries, productivity improvements and technological advances to drive the indexes upwards from here.

The rise of such vast populations such as China and India have already benefited share market indexes and there is still a lot of people left to rise out of poverty to earn and spend money. Lots of discussions of technologies that could greatly change how we live and work in our lives, 3d printing, AI, driverless cars. It could be something nobody has even thought of yet that will change our lives in the next 30 years as much as the internet has changed the last 30. Along with all the potential for the world, there will be countless worries and risks for us to get through as well.

Although baby boomers had it a lot easier with education, getting a good job, buying a house, falling interest rates throughout their main investment years I'd much rather stick to my generation. Exciting times we live in :)

mjr

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Brisbane, Qld
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2887 on: March 17, 2017, 04:46:59 PM »
As Deborah mentioned higher interest rates are usually accompanied by higher inflation so you aren't getting a real 7% return.

I didn't make any claims as to getting a real return of 7% at that time.

That said, here's the annual inflation rates for the last 5 years:

20121.7%
20132.5%
20142.5%
20151.5%
20161.3%

which wiggle around 1.9% while nominal rates dropped around 5%.

As for "Falling interest rates is the best thing that can happen to you once you have finished accumulating growth assets", that makes no sense to me. Falling interest rates are symptomatic of a sluggish economy.

marty998

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2888 on: March 17, 2017, 05:46:18 PM »

As for "Falling interest rates is the best thing that can happen to you once you have finished accumulating growth assets", that makes no sense to me. Falling interest rates are symptomatic of a sluggish economy.

All assets are priced as the present value of expected future cash flows. Future cashflows are discounted by the market's expected rate of return, which is a function of the risk free interest rate + a risk margin.

All else being equal, decreasing the risk free interest rate will increase the value of all assets.

mjr

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Brisbane, Qld
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2889 on: March 17, 2017, 06:32:46 PM »
All assets are priced as the present value of expected future cash flows. Future cashflows are discounted by the market's expected rate of return, which is a function of the risk free interest rate + a risk margin.

This is quite true.   However, outside of market theory, the future cash flows driving the stock price are driven by the well-being of the economy and falling interest rates are a symptom of a declining economy.

Countries all around the world are trying to get their economies restarted and they want to see interest rates and inflation rising again.  Rates, both real and nominal, are too low.

potm

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 502
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2890 on: March 17, 2017, 10:53:46 PM »
And look how growth assets have performed in the last 5 years with sluggish economies and falling interest rates. If you retired 5 years ago with growth assets, you'd be laughing, not worried that you could only get 2% on your cash.

Ozstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 791
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Oztralia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2891 on: March 18, 2017, 04:41:42 AM »
And look how growth assets have performed in the last 5 years with sluggish economies and falling interest rates. If you retired 5 years ago with growth assets, you'd be laughing, not worried that you could only get 2% on your cash.
I'd also be worried that such unusually high growth for such weak conditions may also be fleeting.

settlement

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 55
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2892 on: March 18, 2017, 05:58:54 AM »
How are ETFs taxed in australia? Just as capital gains when selling? How are dividends treated - are they taxable also?

mjr

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Brisbane, Qld
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2893 on: March 18, 2017, 02:47:46 PM »
And look how growth assets have performed in the last 5 years with sluggish economies and falling interest rates. If you retired 5 years ago with growth assets, you'd be laughing, not worried that you could only get 2% on your cash.
I'd also be worried that such unusually high growth for such weak conditions may also be fleeting.

Exactly.  Asset bubble.  Not only not sustainable, but prone to popping.

mjr

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Brisbane, Qld
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2894 on: March 18, 2017, 02:49:32 PM »
How are ETFs taxed in australia? Just as capital gains when selling? How are dividends treated - are they taxable also?

Yes, capital gains/losses apply when selling.  Dividends are taxed as income.

marty998

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2895 on: March 18, 2017, 03:04:17 PM »
How are ETFs taxed in australia? Just as capital gains when selling? How are dividends treated - are they taxable also?

Yes, capital gains/losses apply when selling.  Dividends are taxed as income.

The dividends are actually trust distributions - you'll get a tax statement each year detailing components:

- NPP income (non-primary producer / interest income)
- Franked dividends
- Unfranked dividends
- Franking credtis
- Capital gains
- Tax deferred income
- Foreign income
- Foreign tax credits

Gockie

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Location: Sydney Australia
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2896 on: March 20, 2017, 06:15:55 AM »
Hi, I used to peruse MMM threads a while back but havent really done so recently.
I just wanted to say that Peter Thornhill author of "Motivated money" will be talking about share investing for long term gains and he'll come up to speak in Brisbane on 8th April as some of you may have seen on facebook. He is worth shelling the $410 for a full day event (includes food) to go and see and this is a one time event only. Miss it and you might have to come to Sydney to listen to him talk.
I am a property investor from 2005 with a few properties (love that Sydney boom!) but Peter has opened my eyes to shares.
If you can make it, trust me, you'll find it $410 very well spent.
Yes, I make some money out of this but that's not my motivation. I can just as easily lose money on doing this and also not have to go through any hassle! (I already have a day job, 2 airbnb lets, manage a volleyball competition and I'm job hunting because my current work contract finishes in 6 weeks!) But I wanted friends up further north to have the opportunity to listen to him.

Here's the link to his website:
http://www.motivatedmoney.com.au
Here's the link to the event:
https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/investing-for-long-term-gain-presented-by-peter-thornhill-tickets-32809643527

Any questions you can email me. And he will have an event in May in Sydney (check his website) and he may have an event on in Melbourne if there's the interest.

Anyway, my email is: Linda.property.au@gmail.com if you want to contact me.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 06:22:10 AM by Gockie »

deborah

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5847
  • Location: At Home
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2897 on: March 20, 2017, 09:57:32 AM »
When I started out, I went to a number of the free training sessions and seminars at the ASX. They had lunchtime talks on various topics, and they also had training in the evening on various things to do with the stock exchange (for instance, I remember a four session training on options, and the basic stock training which I think was 8 sessions).

The training is now online - see http://www.asx.com.au/education/online-courses.htm

They also have webinars and other interesting sessions - http://www.asx.com.au/education/seminars-webinars.htm - these can include CEOs from companies listed on the ASX talking about their business, and various other interesting people.

I have found that ASX education is usually very good (although everyone they get is an expert, the occasional person was not all that good at speaking), and free.

kiwiozearlyretirement

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 62
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2898 on: March 21, 2017, 07:34:29 AM »
Anyone know about concessional super contributions if you don't have a job. For example once you FIRE and are no longer earning a wage can you contribute the passive income you do make (rent, dividends etc) to your super concessionally. Or do you have to be 'self employed with an ABN?

mjr

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Brisbane, Qld
Re: Australian Investing Thread
« Reply #2899 on: March 21, 2017, 02:35:13 PM »
If you are not employed, you can make personal concessional contributions up to the cap, but you can't contribute more than you earn.