Author Topic: Anyone in Bitcoin?  (Read 2373 times)

Driko

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Anyone in Bitcoin?
« on: March 04, 2017, 08:03:02 PM »
I have been following bitcoin for a few years and have used it on a few occasions. I remember around three years ago the price was about 300 for a bitcoin and today bitcoin has surpassed the price of gold and is at 1270. It could be a good long term investment since they will supposedly never create more than 21 million. I have also heard that investors in china have been buying into it amid speculations on the value of the dollar and what impact our future trade policies and possible tariffs will have on other countries.

I bought half of a bitcoin today and I think I will probably purchase up to 4 this year and then hold for the long term and see what happens.

steveo

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2017, 08:14:23 PM »
I've used it and I love. I reckon crypto currencies should be the default payment method and we'd all be heaps better off.

I have no idea if it's a good investment though.

OurFirstFire

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2017, 06:13:34 AM »
Yes!  I got lucky with making a purchase almost 2 years ago when they were $230.  Not a huge investment, but enough to make me very happy if it someday hits $1MM as is the unsupported claim made by the bitcoin boosters.

I don't think I'd have the confidence to make the same investment today at all-time highs, but maybe the long-term future still warrants it.

Rightflyer

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2017, 06:17:02 AM »
Can someone explain to an idiot like me how Bitcoin works?

I fear I am the last person left on the planet who doesn't "get it"!
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Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2017, 09:13:21 AM »
Yes, a buddy and I while in University set everything up and bought a few coins (when they were trading ~$100) at one point we had 4 coins. we did some trading and always came out worse off so decided with our 2 we would just hold. Well a year later the exchange we were holding one in closed and we lost one coin. So are now down to 1 with no plan for selling or anything.

I like the idea but honestly see it as purely speculation so I don't think i'll be buying any more.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2017, 09:19:24 AM »
Bitcoin is an experiment into whether you can have a successful currency with deflation built into the design. Because the economy continues to grow, more currency is constantly needed. That's why for USD, the supply of money in circulation (known as M1 or M2) has been constantly increased over time. Had the treasury not increased the amount of money in circulation over the centuries, there would eventually be a shortage, which would choke off people's ability to transact and encourage hoarding of currency even as sellers became more and more desperate to unload goods. This is what happened in the Great Depression.
The drop in prices could be understood as an increase in the value of currency.

Bitcoin has already hit the point of diminishing returns in terms of the number of new bitcoins that could be mined. As the Bitcoin economy grows, Bitcoins will become harder and harder to obtain. Hoarding has already started based on this promise.

The question becomes: What happens next? Does the value of Bitcoins necessarily rise to millions of dollars each? Or is the long-awaited collapse already built in?

Thing is, anyone using Bitcoin has other currency options to transact in. Even drug dealers might choose the costs of laundering over the risks of holding a virtual currency. A mental shift from thinking about Bitcoin as a currency to thinking about it as a collectible fad might set off a landslide of selling among the majority of users holding it for appreciation.

I'd give it even odds of doubling or crashing. Do I wish I had put my life savings into it 7 years ago? Yes. But I also don't want to be among the last to exit.

Rightflyer

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 09:25:37 AM »

Thing is, anyone using Bitcoin has other currency options to transact in. Even drug dealers might choose the costs of laundering over the risks of holding a virtual currency. A mental shift from thinking about Bitcoin as a currency to thinking about it as a collectible fad might set off a landslide of selling among the majority of users holding it for appreciation.

I'd give it even odds of doubling or crashing. Do I wish I had put my life savings into it 7 years ago? Yes. But I also don't want to be among the last to exit.

Thanks ChpBstrd.

That pretty much explained everything I really need to know (over and above the Wikipedia description).
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Dago

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 09:55:09 AM »
I have been involved in Bitcoin since 2011. I think that it is a beautiful idea, from an economic and an computing point of view.

I have a few advises for those who consider investing in Bitcoin :
  • Never ever keep your bitcoins on an exchange. First, get a wallet on your computer and store them there after you bought them.
  • Actually, if you have more in value than what you would be comfortable having in your home in cash, consider storing them in a cold wallet.
  • Actually, consider buying a hardware wallet such as trezor (https://trezor.io/).
  • Have backups, being usb sticks and/or papers, safely stored.
  • If you consider speculating, just reconsider because it is madness. Only consider Bitcoin as a long-term investment, it is highly volatile and it can take years to recover from a crash.
  • If you did not understand some words or idea stated in the above points, it means you are not ready yet for Bitcoin. Read and educate yourself first.

Remember that you are your own bank with Bitcoin. What happens if someone steals your computer ? if your house burns ? if your computer is hacked ? if you mistype and address when sending money ?

A Bitcoin ETF will hopefully be granted this week to the Winklevoss brothers. People not extremely versed in computing matters should rather consider this.

phil22

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2017, 12:42:14 PM »
A mental shift from thinking about Bitcoin as a currency to thinking about it as a collectible fad might set off a landslide of selling among the majority of users holding it for appreciation.

My belief is the underlying discovery/invention of decentralized cryptocurrencies (of which Bitcoin was the first) is not a fad.  Cryptocurrencies are here to stay.  The desire to own "collectible" things with limited supply, as a speculative investment, is also not a fad.  If a better cryptocurrency comes along, or if Bitcoin is proven insecure or compromised by a government or something, then yes Bitcoin could behave like a dying fad when bitcoin owners move en masse to another coin.


maizeman

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2017, 01:54:19 PM »
Bitcoin has three largely distinct things going for it:

1) Ease/speed/cost of sending payments (compared to ACH transfers, credit card processing companies, paypal)
2) Anonymity
3) Potential for price appreciation.

I'm quite bullish on #1, whether BTC itself or another crytocurrency or a similar system, and long term I'm glad I don't own paypal/mastercard/etc. 
#2 has been attacked, at least in the USA, by requiring the exchanges that people used to convert USD->BTC and back again to turn over a lot of detailed information on their customers.
#3 is gambling not investing. So it can be fun but don't bet any money you cannot afford to lose.

Yes, a buddy and I while in University set everything up and bought a few coins (when they were trading ~$100) at one point we had 4 coins. we did some trading and always came out worse off so decided with our 2 we would just hold. Well a year later the exchange we were holding one in closed and we lost one coin. So are now down to 1 with no plan for selling or anything.

I like the idea but honestly see it as purely speculation so I don't think i'll be buying any more.

You were holding your bitcoins at the exchange? No no no. What Dago said. At least store them on your computer, and have a hard copy print out of your wallet's private key so you can recover them if your computer crashes. (This can be as simple as a printed out piece of paper in an envelope).

I have also heard that investors in china have been buying into it amid speculations on the value of the dollar and what impact our future trade policies and possible tariffs will have on other countries.

The chinese are buying bitcoins because they face extremely harsh currency controls in trying to move money overseas and bitcoin is one way around that. It doesn't really have much to do with us/the US.
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Driko

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2017, 09:05:59 PM »
A mental shift from thinking about Bitcoin as a currency to thinking about it as a collectible fad might set off a landslide of selling among the majority of users holding it for appreciation.

My belief is the underlying discovery/invention of decentralized cryptocurrencies (of which Bitcoin was the first) is not a fad.  Cryptocurrencies are here to stay.  The desire to own "collectible" things with limited supply, as a speculative investment, is also not a fad.  If a better cryptocurrency comes along, or if Bitcoin is proven insecure or compromised by a government or something, then yes Bitcoin could behave like a dying fad when bitcoin owners move en masse to another coin.

Yeah, I agree with you. Either way it will be interesting to see how it pans out over the years. I really regret not getting involved when I first found out about it, but that's life lol

zazpowered

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2017, 01:20:45 AM »
Yes. I used to have 20 but now I am down to 5. I have also been buying ETH

Driko

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2017, 03:03:38 AM »
Yes. I used to have 20 but now I am down to 5. I have also been buying ETH

Yeah ETH is interesting also. I haven't looked into it to know how safe it is, but I'm guessing you can store that offline also. Seems like from a speculating on price perspective ETH could possibly appreciate way more in the next year.

Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2017, 07:19:48 AM »
Yes, a buddy and I while in University set everything up and bought a few coins (when they were trading ~$100) at one point we had 4 coins. we did some trading and always came out worse off so decided with our 2 we would just hold. Well a year later the exchange we were holding one in closed and we lost one coin. So are now down to 1 with no plan for selling or anything.

I like the idea but honestly see it as purely speculation so I don't think i'll be buying any more.


You were holding your bitcoins at the exchange? No no no. What Dago said. At least store them on your computer, and have a hard copy print out of your wallet's private key so you can recover them if your computer crashes. (This can be as simple as a printed out piece of paper in an envelope).

Yes looking back it was a huge mistake. We had one coin stored offline but had some on the exchange ready for trading. After finishing school and not seeing each other every single day anymore we stopped the trading and the coin just stayed on the exchange. We know better for the future though!

gp_

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2017, 09:37:02 AM »
Yes. I used to have 20 but now I am down to 5. I have also been buying ETH

i bet you've been happy lately :) ETH is killing it

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2017, 10:41:58 AM »
I got out of bitcoin - there wasn't enough I could do with it.  Some restaurants accepted it, and some websites.  Awareness is a huge obstacle for Bitcoin.

New bitcoins come from computers guessing a checksum.  They propose a block of transactions, including giving themselves a prescribed amount of bitcoin, and then guess at the checksum.  The rest of the miners can verify a correct checksum, and accept the block.  Cheat, and the rest of the miners ignore the block.  It's like a big audit trail where every bitcoin miner tries to be the first to correctly generate the next page.

You might read up on the different sides of the Bitcoin community so you understand the fight that was going on there.  Some want bitcoin to have more transactions, others want transactions to have higher fees (somewhat of an oversimplification).  It's also worth knowing that most bitcoin mining happens in China owing to the lower electricity costs there.  Maybe also for getting around export restrictions, although last I checked bitcoin was only 0.1% the currency flowing out of China.

I would warn you not to sell bitcoin on eBay - lots of fraud there.  There's a reason people have long lists of restrictions and sometimes require photographs of a person holding their ID.  What happens is that the transactions look normal, and then weeks later everyone asks for a refund.  A refund of bitcoin that is gone, that they claim wasn't received.  So avoid that route.

In searching for a place to purchase bitcoin, I settled on Coinbase.  Several places didn't have a license to sell in big states like California, but Coinbase had settled that issue.  Their transaction fee (1%) was reasonable compared to other approaches.  But I still went into my Coinbase account, and transferred bitcoin to an address provided by my own digital wallet.  I kept bitcoin on my computer (with encrypted backups online).

Hope others find it more interesting and useful than I did.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 10:43:53 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

sandmaninator

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2017, 09:29:43 PM »

"Distributed ledger technology (blockchain) will do for transactions what the internet did for information"
-Ginny Rometty

MoonLiteNite

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 02:54:50 AM »
I never traded it.
Years ago i  was one of the lucky ones who mined a block by pure luck, then at a later joined i joined a coop. And in total mined like 1.4 coins or so.
Currently it is all sitting in an "illegal" poker website. slowly have been growing it over the years, up to  27 coins! And from time to time i use some to buy products online, and once for the hell of it,  used it at a bar :D

Really would love ot sell it, but i just keep it as my "please be a super mega duper home run fund" and one day it hits like 5k a coin :D

gp_

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 01:09:43 PM »
Really would love ot sell it, but i just keep it as my "please be a super mega duper home run fund" and one day it hits like 5k a coin :D

if you're not, be sure to keep an eye on what's happening with bitcoin. a possible hard fork is coming, and with BTU (bitcoin unlimited) being heavily pushed, the price of BTC could tank. it's seriously stressful, haha.

good read if you don't know much about BTU and why people want it to happen.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2017/03/21/is-this-massive-power-struggle-about-to-blow-up-bitcoin/#33bc1b677325

maizeman

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 01:33:53 PM »
Cool link. I liked this chunk which summarizes the difference in philosophy between the two camps quite clearly:

Quote
At the highest level, there are two camps that see bitcoin becoming two different things: digital gold or electronic cash,” says Adam White, head of GDAX, the professional trading platform of one of the most well-known startups in the space, Coinbase. “Neither is right or wrong. They’re just different perspectives on what the network can become.” The developers’ approach is one more of digital gold — not necessarily putting every coffee payment onto the bitcoin network itself, but having them processed by other, faster networks that would later connect to bitcoin’s to provide finality to the transaction. Bitcoin Unlimited’s vision, supported by a number of miners at this point, is of bitcoin as e-cash — a network that has room for every morning coffee to be processed on bitcoin’s network, which would, incidentally, give them more transaction fees.

I am by no means an expert, but my understanding is that, if there was a hard fork people who had held pre-fork bitcoins would actually be able to double spend them (once on the BTC network and once on the BTU network). So from the user perspective the fork itself is pretty much a non-issue.

Now if the fork scares people out of bitcoin entirely, tanking the exchange rates of both forked networks, that's a different issue. But a hard fork doesn't require individual users to pick a winner between the two new blockchains.
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gp_

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 02:50:06 PM »

I am by no means an expert, but my understanding is that, if there was a hard fork people who had held pre-fork bitcoins would actually be able to double spend them (once on the BTC network and once on the BTU network). So from the user perspective the fork itself is pretty much a non-issue.

Now if the fork scares people out of bitcoin entirely, tanking the exchange rates of both forked networks, that's a different issue. But a hard fork doesn't require individual users to pick a winner between the two new blockchains.

BTU will likely become it's own, separate altcoin. it's being proposed because the blockchain will be larger, and therefore more transactions can be made faster. if/when the mainstream starts to really adopt the technology, they could look at BTU has the "superior" coin. a lot of the exchanges are already on board with it. there are so many different scenarios which can be played out... what many people are afraid of (myself included) is that 2 of the largest bitcoin holders (individuals) in the world are the ones proposing the hard fork / switch. there are A LOT of conspiracy theories about why they're doing this, and both sides make sense to me. that's why i'm a little stressed being a BTC holder.

PDXTabs

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 03:03:52 PM »
Bitcoin is an experiment into whether you can have a successful currency with deflation built into the design. Because the economy continues to grow, more currency is constantly needed. That's why for USD, the supply of money in circulation (known as M1 or M2) has been constantly increased over time. Had the treasury not increased the amount of money in circulation over the centuries, there would eventually be a shortage, which would choke off people's ability to transact and encourage hoarding of currency even as sellers became more and more desperate to unload goods. This is what happened in the Great Depression.
The drop in prices could be understood as an increase in the value of currency.

This right here is why Bitcoin will never replace USD, GBP, or Euros. With that said I own some that I have used for ordering things online that are much cheaper when priced in bitcoins. My bitcoins have appreciated but I wouldn't invest in them when there are all sorts of real world things to invest in.

maizeman

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 03:55:27 PM »

I am by no means an expert, but my understanding is that, if there was a hard fork people who had held pre-fork bitcoins would actually be able to double spend them (once on the BTC network and once on the BTU network). So from the user perspective the fork itself is pretty much a non-issue.

Now if the fork scares people out of bitcoin entirely, tanking the exchange rates of both forked networks, that's a different issue. But a hard fork doesn't require individual users to pick a winner between the two new blockchains.

BTU will likely become it's own, separate altcoin. it's being proposed because the blockchain will be larger, and therefore more transactions can be made faster. if/when the mainstream starts to really adopt the technology, they could look at BTU has the "superior" coin. a lot of the exchanges are already on board with it. there are so many different scenarios which can be played out... what many people are afraid of (myself included) is that 2 of the largest bitcoin holders (individuals) in the world are the ones proposing the hard fork / switch. there are A LOT of conspiracy theories about why they're doing this, and both sides make sense to me. that's why i'm a little stressed being a BTC holder.

Well the question is whether BTU would retain the whole BTC blockchain up till now (which is what a hard fork would imply) or essentially start over mining from scratch. If the former, you get an additional altcoin where everyone who had a bitcoins pre-fork has equal numbers of the altcoins instantaneously. If the latter then it's just yet another altcoin (although one with particularly rich and powerful backers).

Link to any of the conspiracy theories? I haven't been much into bitcoins in several years, but it's always entertaining to read up on the politics of the community.
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gp_

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 04:25:59 PM »
Link to any of the conspiracy theories?

i don't have any links to specific stories, but there's a lot of talk on the bitcoin talk forum (bitcointalk.org). it's been interesting to hear what everyone thinks (and a lot of it is conspiracy theory'ish!)

specifically read up on roger ver and jihan wu.

gp_

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 05:01:37 PM »
Well the question is whether BTU would retain the whole BTC blockchain up till now (which is what a hard fork would imply) or essentially start over mining from scratch. If the former, you get an additional altcoin where everyone who had a bitcoins pre-fork has equal numbers of the altcoins instantaneously. If the latter then it's just yet another altcoin (although one with particularly rich and powerful backers).

most people (the conspiracy theorists), believe that BTU will run on a separate blockchain to BTC. 1 theory is that the whales want people to adopt it, because people will trade their BTC for BTU out of fear their BTC will become worthless. pt.2 to the theory is that the whales will buy back BTC at a much lower price retaining and even larger % of BTC. at the point BTU gains mass adoption, it will be dumped, and people will buy BTC again, but at a much higher price. this seems very plausible, as it's no different than any other "pump and dump". roger ver (look him up) is rumored to have something like 300,000 bitcoins. jihan wu (look him up) must have a ridiculous amount as well (he's the largest manufacturer of bitcoin mining equipment). they're 2 of the largest proponents pushing for BTU adoption. ironic? i think "kinda". i think instead of increasing the blockchain, the solution is to have 1 transaction per block - you have scalability and instant confirmation. blocks are packed into records within the blockchain, so it could conceivably work. network speeds will accommodate this someday. increasing block sizes slows down the system, and it's only going to become slower with more adoption and in turn trading/sending. BTU could work in theory, but a lot of people are weary. i'm very much one of them.

MoonLiteNite

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2017, 03:13:41 AM »
Really would love ot sell it, but i just keep it as my "please be a super mega duper home run fund" and one day it hits like 5k a coin :D

if you're not, be sure to keep an eye on what's happening with bitcoin. a possible hard fork is coming, and with BTU (bitcoin unlimited) being heavily pushed, the price of BTC could tank. it's seriously stressful, haha.

good read if you don't know much about BTU and why people want it to happen.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2017/03/21/is-this-massive-power-struggle-about-to-blow-up-bitcoin/#33bc1b677325

I do not keep up with it anymore, really only use it for some donations now and then and my poker money.
I maybe spent 20$ on my power bill for all of it.

Would suck to see it tank :(

gp_

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2017, 10:12:12 AM »
I do not keep up with it anymore, really only use it for some donations now and then and my poker money.
I maybe spent 20$ on my power bill for all of it.

Would suck to see it tank :(

that's cool that you actually use it. yeah, it would be terrible if it tanked for sure!

dreams_and_discoveries

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2017, 09:42:01 AM »
I'm toying with the idea of a speculative buy.....not sure if I'll go ahead....think I'll do some more reading before deciding - a bitcoin does seem expensive at £1k....

Scandium

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2017, 12:50:09 PM »
Bitcoin has three largely distinct things going for it:

1) Ease/speed/cost of sending payments (compared to ACH transfers, credit card processing companies, paypal)
2) Anonymity
3) Potential for price appreciation.

How exactly is BTC anonymous? I only briefly looked into it years ago and didn't see a way to acquire any anonymously, short of mining. Every way I found to buy BTC involved leaving a trail by using a credit/debit card, bank info or similar. I think there was some money transfer card you could buy at CVS with cash and then use that online? As long as you avoid video surveillance of course you'd then be anonymous. But I could be mistaken.

slowsynapse

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2017, 02:10:20 PM »
Can someone explain to an idiot like me how Bitcoin works?

I fear I am the last person left on the planet who doesn't "get it"!

I recently watched 2014 documentary called The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin.  I think it does a good job of explaining some of the basics of bitcoin as well as its potential.  It also addresses many pitfalls and challenges of crypto-currency.  I looked up a few of the main players that were documented in the movie and found it interesting to see a few of them spent time in jail and many of their bitcoin related exchanges were shuttered; rightly or wrongly I am not sure.  Mt. Gox would be the most noticeable failure of a Bitcoin related exchange with Bitinstant not far behind.

Bitcoin is a really interesting subject and worth a few hours of free time if you have it.  The more I learn about it, the less I feel I know.

maizeman

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2017, 02:13:46 PM »
Bitcoin has three largely distinct things going for it:

1) Ease/speed/cost of sending payments (compared to ACH transfers, credit card processing companies, paypal)
2) Anonymity
3) Potential for price appreciation.

How exactly is BTC anonymous? I only briefly looked into it years ago and didn't see a way to acquire any anonymously, short of mining. Every way I found to buy BTC involved leaving a trail by using a credit/debit card, bank info or similar. I think there was some money transfer card you could buy at CVS with cash and then use that online? As long as you avoid video surveillance of course you'd then be anonymous. But I could be mistaken.

Yes, moving money into and out of bitcoins in the USA is getting much harder to do anonymously than it used to be. If you really want to though you can still search local bitcoins (https://localbitcoins.com/), meet up with someone at a random mcdonalds, starbucks, or other place with free wifi and hand them cash and have them transfer over the bitcoins while you sit there. So it's not easy for them to be anonymous (in the USA), but it's feasible.

There are also ways of transferring and mixing bitcoins to new wallets after you buy them so that, while it'll be obvious you bought some bitcoins, it won't be clear _which_ bitcoins you own/are spending. *shrug*
"It’s a selective retirement," Richard explained, "a retirement from boring s**t."

My source code & my journal

Tonyahu

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2017, 02:53:13 PM »
No BTC for me, but 10% of my portfolio is in ETH and a tiny bit in XMR! These are much, much better investments IMO.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 02:59:31 PM by Tonyahu »

gp_

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Re: Anyone in Bitcoin?
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2017, 03:37:41 PM »
No BTC for me, but 10% of my portfolio is in ETH and a tiny bit in XMR! These are much, much better investments IMO.

agreed.