Author Topic: Aaaaand the bear market is over  (Read 6549 times)

sol

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2019, 09:44:39 PM »
Even most Americans are net takers, but it's worse for illegals.

Your understanding of economics is considerably flawed.  You really think that everyone who does work is a taker, and rich people who live off investments or business ownership are actually contributing?  Taxes paid are NOT the right way to gauge economic productivity.

I assure you that if every "taker" in your definition were to suddenly evaporate, our economy would collapse.  Labor is the source of all wealth, remember?  Those people WORK, for you and for me, and their work is what keeps this country running.  We need people who work hard, and the fact that they make so little money that they pay no taxes does not make them takers.  Quite the contrary, I would argue that every CEO and celebrity athlete and trust fund kid is a taker, because they consume enormous resources without doing any meaningful work. 

The rich are the parasites of society, not the poor.  Poor people work, and produce, and create.  Rich people just consume, mostly while doing nothing.  They're vital parasites, don't get me wrong, but they're still parasites.  Living off the hard work of others.  Taking advantage of lenient tax laws that preserve their privileged position in society.  Lounging by the pool, complaining on the internet about all of the people who mow their lawns for them. 

And since you're so stuck on the supposed cost of illegal immigration, I'm sure you're aware that these people pay taxes without being eligible to receive social services, right?  They're the exact opposite of takers.  They give and get nothing back.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2019, 06:28:41 AM »
Of course there is 1) a skills gap for the jobs that pay well, and 2) mostly low paying jobs available.

If republicans find a way to stop illegal immigration, there will be TONS of jobs available on farms and ranches, in landscaping and housecleaning companies, and on freelance construction crews standing outside of Home Depot.  Tell your kids they don't need to go to college, there's about to be record low unemployment for anyone willing to put in hard labor for below minimum wage.
Wouldn't be surprised to learn of a serious new housing shortage, either, due to lack of labor.

More likely that there would be an excess of housing due to reduced immigration. I work in the forest industry. Aside from the current shortage of blue-collar labor, the primary concern at present is that long-term dampening of immigration, combined with slowing organic population growth, will keep new housing demand well below long-term trends. That doesn't bode well for solid wood product demand (i.e., everything but paper) which is primarily driven by new housing.
I've lived in large, urban areas with big housing growth in two states and I haven't seen a white man on a building crew in almost a decade. If most of that Hispanic labor dissappeared overnight new home building would basically grind to a halt. I'm very doubtful the reduction in demand would outstrip the loss of labor.

The luxury condos that are being built next to my house are a mix of white and Hispanic labor.

MissNancyPryor

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2019, 06:48:28 AM »
I have wondered why poor black people are rarely found doing construction, the mix of labor does seem to be as noted.   

JAYSLOL

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2019, 06:55:23 AM »
Even most Americans are net takers, but it's worse for illegals.

Your understanding of economics is considerably flawed.  You really think that everyone who does work is a taker, and rich people who live off investments or business ownership are actually contributing?  Taxes paid are NOT the right way to gauge economic productivity.

I assure you that if every "taker" in your definition were to suddenly evaporate, our economy would collapse.  Labor is the source of all wealth, remember?  Those people WORK, for you and for me, and their work is what keeps this country running.  We need people who work hard, and the fact that they make so little money that they pay no taxes does not make them takers.  Quite the contrary, I would argue that every CEO and celebrity athlete and trust fund kid is a taker, because they consume enormous resources without doing any meaningful work. 

The rich are the parasites of society, not the poor.  Poor people work, and produce, and create.  Rich people just consume, mostly while doing nothing.  They're vital parasites, don't get me wrong, but they're still parasites.  Living off the hard work of others.  Taking advantage of lenient tax laws that preserve their privileged position in society.  Lounging by the pool, complaining on the internet about all of the people who mow their lawns for them. 

And since you're so stuck on the supposed cost of illegal immigration, I'm sure you're aware that these people pay taxes without being eligible to receive social services, right?  They're the exact opposite of takers.  They give and get nothing back.

Well said sol

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2019, 07:25:42 AM »
Of course there is 1) a skills gap for the jobs that pay well, and 2) mostly low paying jobs available.

If republicans find a way to stop illegal immigration, there will be TONS of jobs available on farms and ranches, in landscaping and housecleaning companies, and on freelance construction crews standing outside of Home Depot.  Tell your kids they don't need to go to college, there's about to be record low unemployment for anyone willing to put in hard labor for below minimum wage.
Wouldn't be surprised to learn of a serious new housing shortage, either, due to lack of labor.

More likely that there would be an excess of housing due to reduced immigration. I work in the forest industry. Aside from the current shortage of blue-collar labor, the primary concern at present is that long-term dampening of immigration, combined with slowing organic population growth, will keep new housing demand well below long-term trends. That doesn't bode well for solid wood product demand (i.e., everything but paper) which is primarily driven by new housing.
I've lived in large, urban areas with big housing growth in two states and I haven't seen a white man on a building crew in almost a decade. If most of that Hispanic labor dissappeared overnight new home building would basically grind to a halt. I'm very doubtful the reduction in demand would outstrip the loss of labor.

So what exactly makes you think that those Hispanics that you see building houses are illegal immigrants? Do you think that most Hispanics are here illegally?

Mr. Green

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2019, 10:57:53 AM »
Of course there is 1) a skills gap for the jobs that pay well, and 2) mostly low paying jobs available.

If republicans find a way to stop illegal immigration, there will be TONS of jobs available on farms and ranches, in landscaping and housecleaning companies, and on freelance construction crews standing outside of Home Depot.  Tell your kids they don't need to go to college, there's about to be record low unemployment for anyone willing to put in hard labor for below minimum wage.
Wouldn't be surprised to learn of a serious new housing shortage, either, due to lack of labor.

More likely that there would be an excess of housing due to reduced immigration. I work in the forest industry. Aside from the current shortage of blue-collar labor, the primary concern at present is that long-term dampening of immigration, combined with slowing organic population growth, will keep new housing demand well below long-term trends. That doesn't bode well for solid wood product demand (i.e., everything but paper) which is primarily driven by new housing.
I've lived in large, urban areas with big housing growth in two states and I haven't seen a white man on a building crew in almost a decade. If most of that Hispanic labor dissappeared overnight new home building would basically grind to a halt. I'm very doubtful the reduction in demand would outstrip the loss of labor.

So what exactly makes you think that those Hispanics that you see building houses are illegal immigrants? Do you think that most Hispanics are here illegally?
I didn't say they were illegal. But it's obvious the current administration would prefer no immigration, based on policy changes made that limit legal immigration. Immigration has always beenone of this country's great drivers of growth. It's simply not intelligent to turn that off because you don't like the percentage of white people you see in a crowd anymore.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2019, 11:17:45 AM »
Of course there is 1) a skills gap for the jobs that pay well, and 2) mostly low paying jobs available.

If republicans find a way to stop illegal immigration, there will be TONS of jobs available on farms and ranches, in landscaping and housecleaning companies, and on freelance construction crews standing outside of Home Depot.  Tell your kids they don't need to go to college, there's about to be record low unemployment for anyone willing to put in hard labor for below minimum wage.
Wouldn't be surprised to learn of a serious new housing shortage, either, due to lack of labor.

More likely that there would be an excess of housing due to reduced immigration. I work in the forest industry. Aside from the current shortage of blue-collar labor, the primary concern at present is that long-term dampening of immigration, combined with slowing organic population growth, will keep new housing demand well below long-term trends. That doesn't bode well for solid wood product demand (i.e., everything but paper) which is primarily driven by new housing.
I've lived in large, urban areas with big housing growth in two states and I haven't seen a white man on a building crew in almost a decade. If most of that Hispanic labor dissappeared overnight new home building would basically grind to a halt. I'm very doubtful the reduction in demand would outstrip the loss of labor.

So what exactly makes you think that those Hispanics that you see building houses are illegal immigrants? Do you think that most Hispanics are here illegally?
I didn't say they were illegal. But it's obvious the current administration would prefer no immigration, based on policy changes made that limit legal immigration. Immigration has always beenone of this country's great drivers of growth. It's simply not intelligent to turn that off because you don't like the percentage of white people you see in a crowd anymore.

I definitely agree with you on that point. We'll have to disagree on whether or not immigration reduction would tighten or loosen availability of new housing. For what it's worth, the US Dept. of Labor reports that about 30% of the construction labor force is Hispanic. I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of them are citizens or legal immigrants/visa holders. Meanwhile, Pew estimated in 2015 that, between 2015 and 2065, immigrants and their descendants will account for 88% of U.S. population growth. Perhaps you can see why people in the wood products industry are far more concerned about a lack of immigration reducing long-term housing starts that they are about labor shortages in the construction industry.

I will note that labor shortages are real as well - and currently affecting our industry as well as all others - but those tend to be short-term effects that will resolve themselves in the next recession at the latest. A significant, long-term reduction in demand for wood products, on the other hand, is an existential crisis.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 12:54:07 PM by Mississippi Mudstache »

Raeon

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2019, 01:17:16 AM »
At risk of getting drawn into political discussions I have to point out something I often see locally.  The majority of home builders are small locally owned businesses. To reduce taxes the owners of these small businesses often pay the majority of their labor under the table with cash.  The legal laborer (by immigration status,White or Hispanic doesn't matter) earns $25+ per hour working 60 hours/week while a job is active but Uncle Sam thinks he is making $0. 

Those laborers then go home and do what most people do, they procreate.  They then apply for WIC benefits, food stamps, and subsidized healthcare for themselves and their children.  They go out and buy $60,000 vehicles  because, hey, they've sweated and earned it (their thought process, we all know it's not Mustachian).  The problem is, they then load that 60k vehicle with the groceries they(WE) just paid for with their SNAP benefits (food stamps).  This can happen anywhere of course but I find it to be occurring disproportionately in construction and restaurants.  The restaurants are less of an issue in my eyes anyway due to cook wages being substantially lower than construction worker wages. A minimum wage cook wouldn't be paying much/anything for taxes anyway. I suppose my next question is this, who is worse? The rich trust fund baby, the welfare abuser, or the small business owner avoiding taxes?  The trust fund baby is most legit legally, but one could argue they are all a drain on the system. 

I personally feel from an economic viewpoint (disregarding the safety issues of drug cartels, human trafficking, etc) people get way too caught up pointing their fingers at our southern border when they should really be focusing on simplifying our tax code and enforcing it.

The arguments about taxes and government becoming too large and using its dollars inefficiently are different discussions.

AdrianC

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2019, 05:29:10 AM »
At risk of getting drawn into political discussions I have to point out something I often see locally.  The majority of home builders are small locally owned businesses. To reduce taxes the owners of these small businesses often pay the majority of their labor under the table with cash. 
How does under the table with cash reduce their taxes?

Wages to employees and payments to independent contractors are legitimate business expenses that reduce the business owners tax liability. Paying under the table with cash does not.

terran

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2019, 06:51:25 AM »
At risk of getting drawn into political discussions I have to point out something I often see locally.  The majority of home builders are small locally owned businesses. To reduce taxes the owners of these small businesses often pay the majority of their labor under the table with cash. 
How does under the table with cash reduce their taxes?

Wages to employees and payments to independent contractors are legitimate business expenses that reduce the business owners tax liability. Paying under the table with cash does not.

No FICA and no state unemployment tax. And if they pay under market in recognition of the fact that the employee also won't pay FICA or income tax that could also reduce costs.

You're right that they'll have to pay more income tax themselves by not writing the wages off as an expense though.

Mr. Green

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Re: Aaaaand the bear market is over
« Reply #60 on: January 12, 2019, 11:31:52 AM »
The point I was trying to make is that the economic value of the taxes the government collects, or doesn't collect, on anyone pales in comparison to the money engine they drive by simply being alive. Assuming they aren't Mustachians. :) They buy goods and use services in an economy whose cornerstone is the growth of people buying goods and services. Everyone gets hung up on taxes, and it's not even worth talking about if they aren't looking at the bigger picture