Author Topic: '23 Predictions... & how are you changing your investment plans to reflect them?  (Read 8137 times)

blue_green_sparks

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I am no longer working and contributing, so when it is painfully obvious the market will be down for a long time, I do tend to sell off most of my index funds. Sometimes a bit too early, sure. Heavy in cash and short-term bonds now. Loss introduces a reverse compound complication.   

For example:
If you are 40% down, it takes a 66.66% gain to square the loss plus, some more to make up for the loss in fixed interest. That's fine when I was a spring chicken, but odds are that I don't have that kind of time anymore. 40% down from $100K leaves $60K and $60k x 66% = $40K.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 08:04:43 PM by blue_green_sparks »

jeroly

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I am no longer working and contributing, so when it is painfully obvious the market will be down for a long time, I do tend to sell off most of my index funds. Sometimes a bit too early, sure. Heavy in cash and short-term bonds now. Loss introduces a reverse compound complication.   

For example:
If you are 40% down, it takes a 66.66% gain to square the loss plus, some more to make up for the loss in fixed interest. That's fine when I was a spring chicken, but odds are that I don't have that kind of time anymore. 40% down from $100K leaves $60K and $60k x 66% = $40K.

As has been said many times before...

1. If you try to time the market, you have to be right... twice.  You have to sell at the right time but even more importantly you have to buy back in at the right time.  Example:  I sell all my stocks on January 1, 2008 (s&p @ 1379).  Market crashes more than 50%, phwew I didn't lose!  However I continue to wait it out until January 1, 2013 (s&p @ 1480) - I miss out on the gains, plus probably missing out on the extra gains had I continued to dollar cost average in to the position in 2008-2012 (yes I realize you're not contributing, but the reinvested dividends would experience the same effect).

2. Your scenario of having a 40% loss only applies to the equity portion of your portfolio, so in that bad (but not worst-case) bear market scenario you'd have a 17% loss if your FI portfolio gains 6% and you have a 50/50 asset allocation.  Moreover, rebalancing will accentuate the gains as the equities recover.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 05:33:35 AM by jeroly »

clarkfan1979

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I would sit tight. Breck is in the process of maybe crashing.

I would personally not touch Park county with a 10 foot pole, especially if I wanted to go ski/ride Breck. Hoosier... sucks. 30 minutes on a good day, sure. There are not that many good days (for road conditions) in the winter around here, though.

-W

@waltworks  I think our personal preferences are different. I personally like the trade-off opportunities that exist just over Hoosier Pass. Right now, I'm looking for a quiet house in the woods within 30 minutes of Breckenridge. Having a condo close to the lifts wouldn't really provide much joy based on what I am currently trying to accomplish.

In October/November 2020 I had a 10 acre parcel of land under contract for 120K in Alma, CO (38 minutes away from Breckenridge) at an elevation of 10,600 ft. The lot was approximately 1300 ft. long. I was going to develop my own private winter playground (sledding, snowmobiling and a ski run with jumps). I ended up not closing on the deal because the listing agent misrepresented the snowplowing situation. Before closing, I found out that the HOA stopped plowing the road about 200 yards short of the drive-way.

There is currently a 47 acre lot for sale in Alma, CO and it comes with a ski lift. It's 799K and currently out of my price range, but that's the dream. I'm also looking at the possibility of buying property that backs to public land. I'm starting to get into backcountry snowboarding. Hoosier Pass is a good spot for beginners for backcountry.   

I drive through Hoosier Pass about 20 times/year, so I am aware of the conditions. The north side of Hoosier Pass can be snowy/icy which is a problem in the morning going north. However, it's not really a problem driving south in the afternoon. The south side of Hoosier Pass rarely has problems. I'm targeting property close to HWY 9 and some lots can be as close as 18 minutes (no snow) to the ice rink lot.

Once I get into my 60's and the winter playground in Alma, CO becomes too much work, I could see myself buying a condo near the lifts in Breck. However, I don't think I'm at that personal stage of my life yet.

Metalcat

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As for changing investment plans, I do think this can and should happen on a macro, multi-year level. For example, moving away from bonds, or deciding it’s time to cut VTIAX loose, or buying T-bills, or looking at real estate, or starting a business, or reevaluating risk tolerance, or adding/reducing cash. No one should blindly imitate, but intelligent perspectives on the macro trends can confirm your choices or make you subtly change course.

Yep.

That's a big part of why I am not giving 2023 much thought, because we already made changes in 2022 that are very long term plays.

That said, our plan has never primarily depended on our investment accounts to perform well, they're more of a backup resource.

If I were looking to subsist primarily on my investments at some point in the near future with no other sources of income, I would be pretty squirrelly right about now.

EchoStache

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I feel like 2023 is anyones guess with no one able to make a solid assumption about what's likely to happen, maybe moreso than in times past.

What may or may not happen in 2023 will have no effect on our financial strategy for 2023.  I'm at least 7-8 years out from FI so it's 100% FXAIX, max 401k's, max tIRA's, FXAIX in brokerage after that.

I've changed our day to day cash and liquid savings based on current environment i.e. Fidelity CMA with I think ~2.1% on FDIC cash for checking account, emergency fund split between I-Bonds and MM @ ~4.14%.

I made one other small change recently as an experiment.  I'm currently 100% equities but have been considering 80/20 until FIRE so I did just that with only my 2022 401k contributions to dip my toe in the water.  So I'm now 80% FXAIX/20% total bond fund.

None of this is really based on speculation about what 2023 will bring though. Only sensible changes, IMO, with our cash holdings to take advantage of the best guaranteed rates.


blue_green_sparks

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I am no longer working and contributing, so when it is painfully obvious the market will be down for a long time, I do tend to sell off most of my index funds. Sometimes a bit too early, sure. Heavy in cash and short-term bonds now. Loss introduces a reverse compound complication.   

For example:
If you are 40% down, it takes a 66.66% gain to square the loss plus, some more to make up for the loss in fixed interest. That's fine when I was a spring chicken, but odds are that I don't have that kind of time anymore. 40% down from $100K leaves $60K and $60k x 66% = $40K.

As has been said many times before...

1. If you try to time the market, you have to be right... twice.  You have to sell at the right time but even more importantly you have to buy back in at the right time.  Example:  I sell all my stocks on January 1, 2008 (s&p @ 1379).  Market crashes more than 50%, phwew I didn't lose!  However I continue to wait it out until January 1, 2013 (s&p @ 1480) - I miss out on the gains, plus probably missing out on the extra gains had I continued to dollar cost average in to the position in 2008-2012 (yes I realize you're not contributing, but the reinvested dividends would experience the same effect).

2. Your scenario of having a 40% loss only applies to the equity portion of your portfolio, so in that bad (but not worst-case) bear market scenario you'd have a 17% loss if your FI portfolio gains 6% and you have a 50/50 asset allocation.  Moreover, rebalancing will accentuate the gains as the equities recover.

I base my allocation decisions on macro bull/bear trends that persist for many months or years so it's pretty easy to be correct. Basically, my risk tolerance and resulting allocations are not fixed entities; they depend on the macro environment. My portfolio is supplemental; therefore, I don't care about maximizing my returns to squeeze every penny possible from my portfolio while risking a lost half or full decade. My 1.2M, 10/90 portfolio is currently down $29K from its peak and earning $38K fixed/yr. After a >5% rebound on the SPY (under FED rate cut conditions and happy news) I will reallocate back to my 50/50 bull mode. Plus, I get this nice cozy feeling even as the bad new keeps coming.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 09:22:30 AM by blue_green_sparks »

MustacheAndaHalf

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As has been said many times before...

1. If you try to time the market, you have to be right... twice.  You have to sell at the right time but even more importantly you have to buy back in at the right time.  Example:  I sell all my stocks on January 1, 2008 (s&p @ 1379).  Market crashes more than 50%, phwew I didn't lose!  However I continue to wait it out until January 1, 2013 (s&p @ 1480) - I miss out on the gains, plus probably missing out on the extra gains had I continued to dollar cost average in to the position in 2008-2012 (yes I realize you're not contributing, but the reinvested dividends would experience the same effect).
If this is your view, your thread title is disingenious.  You're asking people "how are you changing your investment plans to reflect them", and yet your view is that people should not change their allocation.  You're asking for answers, then criticizing them.

jeroly

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As has been said many times before...

1. If you try to time the market, you have to be right... twice.  You have to sell at the right time but even more importantly you have to buy back in at the right time.  Example:  I sell all my stocks on January 1, 2008 (s&p @ 1379).  Market crashes more than 50%, phwew I didn't lose!  However I continue to wait it out until January 1, 2013 (s&p @ 1480) - I miss out on the gains, plus probably missing out on the extra gains had I continued to dollar cost average in to the position in 2008-2012 (yes I realize you're not contributing, but the reinvested dividends would experience the same effect).

If this is your view, your thread title is disingenious.  You're asking people "how are you changing your investment plans to reflect them", and yet your view is that people should not change their allocation.  You're asking for answers, then criticizing them.
First of all there are other ways to change investment plans other than changing one's stock/bond allocation.
For example, I'm avoiding longer duration debt.  I'm avoiding investment real estate as I think it has too high a potential for loss.

Secondly I didn't ever say that you shouldn't change your allocation, but I pointed out the risk of being out of the market.  One might, for example, decide that their risk tolerance is lower than they thought after having experienced a 20% drawdown, and want to move to a lower stock allocation; this would have nothing to do with market timing.  One might also change their glide path to reflect changing conditions - for example, "with the Ukrainian war going on I think my life expectancy is lower, so I think I will increase my bond exposure faster than previously." 

Thirdly, there's a difference between changing one's investment plans and getting out of equities completely.

Lastly, I never said that I would never critique the ideas posted here, so I don't see any hypocrisy at all.

clarkfan1979

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I feel like 2023 is anyones guess with no one able to make a solid assumption about what's likely to happen, maybe moreso than in times past.

What may or may not happen in 2023 will have no effect on our financial strategy for 2023.  I'm at least 7-8 years out from FI so it's 100% FXAIX, max 401k's, max tIRA's, FXAIX in brokerage after that.

I've changed our day to day cash and liquid savings based on current environment i.e. Fidelity CMA with I think ~2.1% on FDIC cash for checking account, emergency fund split between I-Bonds and MM @ ~4.14%.

I made one other small change recently as an experiment.  I'm currently 100% equities but have been considering 80/20 until FIRE so I did just that with only my 2022 401k contributions to dip my toe in the water.  So I'm now 80% FXAIX/20% total bond fund.

None of this is really based on speculation about what 2023 will bring though. Only sensible changes, IMO, with our cash holdings to take advantage of the best guaranteed rates.

I think claiming unpredictability every year in the S & P 500 is the best approach. If you have 5 years of stability in the S & P 500, people will overestimate the stability of year 6. Past performance is not going to be predictive of future performance.

I think it's possible to make more accurate predictions with local real estate if you read up on what is going on in your local town. I think national real estate trends are more difficult to predict.

OurTown

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I predict the S&P 500 will be sluggish, like a wet sponge.

I predict inflation will calm down but we may have a mild recession.

I will keep buying up shares of index funds until I reach my magic number.  Actually, I am also building up a big cash cushion (goal of about 1 yr. of retirement expenses) in preparation for FIRE.

waltworks

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There is currently a 47 acre lot for sale in Alma, CO and it comes with a ski lift. It's 799K and currently out of my price range, but that's the dream. I'm also looking at the possibility of buying property that backs to public land. I'm starting to get into backcountry snowboarding. Hoosier Pass is a good spot for beginners for backcountry.   

Got it. I misunderstood, thought you were looking for a place in/near Breck to ski the resort (for what it's worth, I don't resort ski either - I always get a free Epic pass from coaching and haven't even bothered to go pick it up this year!)

And hey, if you're grooming a ski run with jumps, that 200 yards of unplowed road is no problem! You'll have a cat, right?

Sounds like a fun dream, hope you can make it happen soon! I'm pretty sure we'll be out of Breck at the end of the school year, we got too used to living somewhere even fancier and it's too much of a step down. I can't believe I'm saying that... but it is what it is.

-W

RWTL

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I predict the S&P 500 will be sluggish, like a wet sponge.



I really hope you were quoting Airplane.

PDXTabs

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- We will finish 2023 higher than we started it

I don't usually make predictions about the future and half the time vand and I disagree but I'll also make this prediction. I'll be a little more specific:
1. I predict that VT will close 2023 up.
2. I predict that VT will outperform cash and bonds (that second "bonds" is a little vague but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

That prediction is worth what you paid for it and is not financial advice.

MustacheAndaHalf

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As has been said many times before...

1. If you try to time the market, you have to be right... twice.  You have to sell at the right time but even more importantly you have to buy back in at the right time.  Example:  I sell all my stocks on January 1, 2008 (s&p @ 1379).  Market crashes more than 50%, phwew I didn't lose!  However I continue to wait it out until January 1, 2013 (s&p @ 1480) - I miss out on the gains, plus probably missing out on the extra gains had I continued to dollar cost average in to the position in 2008-2012 (yes I realize you're not contributing, but the reinvested dividends would experience the same effect).

If this is your view, your thread title is disingenious.  You're asking people "how are you changing your investment plans to reflect them", and yet your view is that people should not change their allocation.  You're asking for answers, then criticizing them.
First of all there are other ways to change investment plans other than changing one's stock/bond allocation.
For example, I'm avoiding longer duration debt.  I'm avoiding investment real estate as I think it has too high a potential for loss.

Secondly I didn't ever say that you shouldn't change your allocation, but I pointed out the risk of being out of the market.  One might, for example, decide that their risk tolerance is lower than they thought after having experienced a 20% drawdown, and want to move to a lower stock allocation; this would have nothing to do with market timing.  One might also change their glide path to reflect changing conditions - for example, "with the Ukrainian war going on I think my life expectancy is lower, so I think I will increase my bond exposure faster than previously." 

Thirdly, there's a difference between changing one's investment plans and getting out of equities completely.

Lastly, I never said that I would never critique the ideas posted here, so I don't see any hypocrisy at all.
You're not asking sincerely if you jump in with generic criticism that "has been said many times before".  I did not call you a hypocrite, I said your thread title was disingenious, or not sincere if you use generic criticism on someone who was answering the question from your thread title.

In my view, most people should treat market timing the way you describe in your first post: moving a few percent into international over time, keeping megacap value a bit longer, and otherwise making small adjustments.  They should "stay the course" as John Bogle was so fond of saying, because over longer periods of time that works well.

I say most people because I'm investing actively, which started with "An experiment" in 2020-2021 (see sig).  When I'm no longer able to spot market mistakes and beat the market, I'll flip back to passive investing.

clarkfan1979

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There is currently a 47 acre lot for sale in Alma, CO and it comes with a ski lift. It's 799K and currently out of my price range, but that's the dream. I'm also looking at the possibility of buying property that backs to public land. I'm starting to get into backcountry snowboarding. Hoosier Pass is a good spot for beginners for backcountry.   

Got it. I misunderstood, thought you were looking for a place in/near Breck to ski the resort (for what it's worth, I don't resort ski either - I always get a free Epic pass from coaching and haven't even bothered to go pick it up this year!)

I do snowboard at the resort, but not exclusively. I need some rental income to off-set the cost of the hobby house. If I'm closer to Breckenridge Ski Resort, I can charge more rent. The proximity to the ski resort is more of a rental criteria, not my own personal criteria.

And hey, if you're grooming a ski run with jumps, that 200 yards of unplowed road is no problem! You'll have a cat, right?

The 200 yards of unplowed road wouldn't be a problem for me. However, it could be a problem for renters. The limited access also affects the sales price. It would be difficult to justify building a new custom house on a "seasonal lot" I don't think the numbers would pencil out.

I probably won't get a snowcat. My ideal private ski hill has trees and not enough room to fit a snowcat through the trees. I will cut up fallen dead trees into short logs and use the logs for the base of jumps that are strategically placed throughout the property. One unique feature of the land was that the county road was elevated 15 ft. above the property. It was the perfect shape to build a massive quarter pipe. It would have been super easy to farm snow from the 200 yards of county rd with a personal truck and plow to build out the quarter-pipe.


Sounds like a fun dream, hope you can make it happen soon! I'm pretty sure we'll be out of Breck at the end of the school year, we got too used to living somewhere even fancier and it's too much of a step down. I can't believe I'm saying that... but it is what it is.

Sometimes to appreciate what you have, you need to live without it for a while, right? Have fun with your adventure.

-W

mistymoney

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Not sure if I saw anyone stating anything this specific and pessimistic...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/from-bank-of-america-to-morgan-stanley-wall-street-giants-are-expecting-stocks-to-crash-more-than-20-next-year-here-s-what-they-ve-been-saying/ar-AA14RdBf?ocid=finance-verthp-feeds&cvid=6865c54c35c240c3b07e2cf1b8ed8b05

Quote
Morgan Stanley
Morgan Stanley expects the S&P 500 to fall 24% to between 3,000 and 3,300, probably in the first four months of 2023. Its chief US equity strategist, Mike Wilson, sees a build-up of companies lowering their earnings outlooks then due to recession, which hits stock valuations.

Quote
Bank of America
Markets will be ravaged by a recession next year, with a 0.4% drop in economic growth coming in the first quarter, according to Bank of America.

It also predicts the S&P 500 could lose 24% from current levels to hit as low as 3,000, as companies are forced to cut earnings outlooks. That would mark a new low in the prevailing bear market cycle.

Quote
Deutsche Bank
In its 2023 outlook, Deutsche Bank said it expects global stocks to drop sharply as a severe and protracted downturn hits the US economy. But it sees the slump in US equities coming in the middle of the year, rather than in the early months.

It forecast the S&P 500 will rally to 4,500 in the first half, then will tank by over 25% in the third quarter, as central bank tightening tips the economy into full recession. That would take the index to 3,375.



Plans would be to just keep working/keep investing and saving.....




FLAFI

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I predict 2023 will surprise us in ways we didn't expect. We can't predict the future, so I will stay the course with a 3 fund portfolio (similar to the portfolio composition advocated by Taylor Larimore). If necessary, make adjustments to the portfolio to stay within a few percentage points of the asset allocation set forth in my investment plan. After being in the market for many years, I am convinced, more than ever, of the wisdom of keeping it simple. 2022 provided an excellent opportunity to exit any remaining actively managed funds and move cash to bonds.           

Given the uncertainty going into 2023, we will continue to strive keep our cost of living low relatively to our net worth.           
« Last Edit: January 02, 2023, 04:58:25 PM by FLAFI »

RobertFromTX

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I have no idea what the market is going to do. I will continue to live in my nearly-paid-off house, hold 100% equities, drive older, efficient cars bought in cash, shovel money into the market with every paycheck, and prioritize simplicity in my investing approach.
*Highfive* - doing the same here! Got about $55k left on the mortgage (I'm 38), 100% equities and very close to the FI #, love my job. So no rush, but I'm really looking forward to not having a mortgage payment.

waltworks

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With iBonds (or hell, CDs!) paying 2-3x my mortgage rate, I love having a mortgage.

-W

Finances_With_Purpose

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My dream scenario is continued doldrums (or a crash) for stocks right when my iBonds stop earning a decent amount and I can cash 'em out for a minimal penalty.

At 6.8 I'll let them sit, but I'm guessing they'll adjust WAY down in May.

-W

That's my dream scenario as well. 

Finances_With_Purpose

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If you have a mortgage from the last 3 or 4 years, there are not a lot of scenarios where iBonds will pay less than your mortgage, so there's really no reason to pay it down rather than just stack up iBonds.

-W

@waltworks : You and I are on exactly the same page re: I-bonds.  That's currently what I'm doing.  I refinanced under 3% and am happy to let Uncle Sam pay me back the difference on spare cash.  I also use the I-bonds to hold cash since I have enough in reserve otherwise and put all excess there to take the free cash while they're handing it out and reduce my inflation downside. 

It's just a nice, pain-free way to hold cash.  And extra money for the mortgage. 

Plus, if you have kids, the $10k/year can become $50k or more a year. 

Finances_With_Purpose

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It's also worth asking ourselves "what can go wrong in 2023?"

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but the Biden administration is currently tapping the strategic petroleum reserve to the tune of 1mmb per day.  At this rate it will run dry within the year and then the extra demand will have to be absorbed into the markets. Perhaps too if Russian oil supplies are completely shut off this could push energy prices right back through the roof and trigger another surge in inflation.

Honest question: how would that change your investing strategy?

I'm not American so I have different concerns, but I have 3 variable mortgages that have sky rocketed, so I'll be highly affected by inflation in 2023. But I don't have an investment strategy to respond to that.

Buy oil stocks or oil futures if you think demand will go up.  Or the like.  More dollars chasing fewer goods = more profit for oil companies/higher oil prices. 

I'm not saying that I agree on that prediction, but that's what one could do to change strategy. 

RobertFromTX

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One thing I am cautious about is chasing the recent out-performance of large value, small value, high-dividend etc.

Growth got so beat down in '22 that I just don't think Value will outperform by much in '23.

All said, I still will keep my slight value tilt I get with AVUS.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2023, 08:28:04 AM by RobertFromTX »

BicycleB

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I have been wondering what will happen due to China's new COVID policies. Right now I've been reading about lots of people still staying home while COVID spreads, but I imagine that at some point such as a few months down the road, that country will just move into "back to work" mode. If so, maybe:

-demand for raw materials will rise (in spring?)
-demand for energy supplies will rise (also spring?)
-in due course, supply of manufactured goods will increase (maybe summer and fall?)

I can imagine the materials demand increasing prices, but the supply of goods reducing bottlenecks and therefore prices of finished goods, or at least reducing the price of finished goods compared to materials; not sure how the combination would affect overall inflation globally or in the United States.

Despite low confidence in any of this, I increased my holding of VDE (Vanguard Energy Index Fund) from about 3% of financial portfolio to about 5.5%. May find a security more directly related to manufacturable materials and replace the new shares with that. (Suggestions?)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2023, 02:02:19 PM by BicycleB »

EverythingisNew

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My predictions for 23:

Stocks will hit a new bear market low the end of January, will rise in February and will hit a new low in March. In April they will improve into the summer but the S&P will stay around 3,800-4000 to the end of the year.

Q4 2022 and Q1 2023 will be negative GDP growth which will make this downturn more likely to be declared a recession that started in Q1 2022.

Crypto will continue to be pounded. Bitcoin will fall sharply to below $10k. More exchanges will go bankrupt, more hacks and assets will be missing. I really wouldn’t be surprised if the $3.2 billion of FTX assets seized by the Bahamas is hacked or missing soon. More people will call crypto a Ponzi scheme publicly and it will be viewed negatively in the public. Legislation will come to protect the public.

Home prices will not fall much, but less homes will be listed and new construction will massively slow down. People will stay in their low mortgage rate homes and prices will not drop substantially.

Inflation has already peaked. The Fed will raise rates by .25 at their next meeting on Feb 1, but then will hold them steady the through the summer. In September they will drop the rate 1% to spur the economy.

It will be a flat year for stocks but I don’t foresee ending the year with the S&P500 down. The market can’t rise much with interest rates high, so there isn’t much growth opportunity until the rates drop (Fall 2023?)

I am doing a bit of market timing and I bought some bonds that expire in March. I also bought TLT because when interest rates fall TLT will rise. When it rises substantially I will switch to S&P500. In the short term I’m playing with individual stocks with a small amount of money to occupy my mind and because there is always a deal somewhere!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2023, 02:33:49 PM by KateFIRE »

Scandium

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My dream scenario is continued doldrums (or a crash) for stocks right when my iBonds stop earning a decent amount and I can cash 'em out for a minimal penalty.

At 6.8 I'll let them sit, but I'm guessing they'll adjust WAY down in May.

-W
I don't really understand this perspective.  I buy I-bonds for inflation protection, not for current yield.  They only 'stop earning a decent amount' when inflation drops - and 'decent amount' really only seems relevant in their context when compared to inflation, so in my perspective they always do earn a decent amount.

Moreover, there are penalties if you sell within five years.  Since in this scenario you are selling when they stop earning a decent amount, you are foregoing three months interest as a penalty when the interest rate was 'decent.' Doesn't really seem that minimal of a penalty... on a $10k bond paying say 8%, you're looking at a $200 charge.

I've bought I-bonds since ~2015 and always thought of them as cash/emergency fund. With a goal of about $50k or so indefinitely. But seems like in the last year a lot of people got them as "investments" due to the 6-9% rate. I remember just a few years ago I-bonds yield was 2-3%, and my bank sometimes gave 1.5%+ at the same time. I was fine with that, but imagine a lot of the "investor" types would not be so happy with those returns and look to cash out.

SpaceCow

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https://twitter.com/LHSummers/status/1611397497854771208


Quote
I suspect tumult for markets in 2023. This is going to be remembered as a ‘V’ year when we recognized that we were headed into a different kind of financial era, with different kinds of interest-rate patterns.

I agree with Larry Summers. I think it's going to be a "V" year, and for that reason I am sitting on a lot of cash. If I can manage to deploy it anywhere near the valley of the "V," I will be pleased.

nereo

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I agree with Larry Summers. I think it's going to be a "V" year, and for that reason I am sitting on a lot of cash. If I can manage to deploy it anywhere near the valley of the "V," I will be pleased.

What metric(s) will you use to judge when to deploy the cash?

nouseforausername

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Fun to mull over, but one year seems to be a quick timeframe to consider for a "V" shaped inversion and recovery.

https://www.multpl.com/inflation-adjusted-s-p-500

FIKris

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Fun!  Predictions:

(1) Investors/financial celebs who bet on major recession are frustrated when it's not as fast or deep as they thought
(2) Elon finally makes good on his promise to sell everything he owns
(3) I continue to suffer from OMY syndrome
(4) Global travel and leisure spending increases from 2022
(5) Euro increases relative to the dollar
(6) Real estate inventory doubles from pandemic lows, prices down in some markets 15%

Change of plans?  Might work 6 more months. Putting the extra in 4%+ CDs.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 11:23:30 AM by FIKris »

EverythingisNew

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My predictions for 23:

Stocks will hit a new bear market low the end of January, will rise in February and will hit a new low in March. In April they will improve into the summer but the S&P will stay around 3,800-4000 to the end of the year.


I already have to update my predictions. Hope this is allowed!

Stocks will hit a new bear market low the end of January in March, will rise in February stay low hitting frequent new lows in a V dip. and will hit a new low in March. The bottom of the bear market will be July. In April they will improve into the summer but the S&P will stay around 3,800-4000 to the end of the year.

nereo

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My predictions for 23:

Stocks will hit a new bear market low the end of January, will rise in February and will hit a new low in March. In April they will improve into the summer but the S&P will stay around 3,800-4000 to the end of the year.


I already have to update my predictions. Hope this is allowed!

Stocks will hit a new bear market low the end of January in March, will rise in February stay low hitting frequent new lows in a V dip. and will hit a new low in March. The bottom of the bear market will be July. In April they will improve into the summer but the S&P will stay around 3,800-4000 to the end of the year.

So long as you are leaving your previous posts for posterity, there's no problem with revisiting predictions.  Actually, I'd say we'd all be better off revisiting predictions periodically.  I started doing that over a decade ago and the conclusion I've reached is that I'm very bad at predicting big market disruptions (in both directions - things I think are likely to happen don't, and lots of stuff I never even considered turn out to be a big disruption ).

If we examined the prediction for most talking-head financial prognosticators I'm sure most would be terrible. 

Scandium

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Not sure if I saw anyone stating anything this specific and pessimistic...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/from-bank-of-america-to-morgan-stanley-wall-street-giants-are-expecting-stocks-to-crash-more-than-20-next-year-here-s-what-they-ve-been-saying/ar-AA14RdBf?ocid=finance-verthp-feeds&cvid=6865c54c35c240c3b07e2cf1b8ed8b05

Quote
Morgan Stanley
Morgan Stanley expects the S&P 500 to fall 24% to between 3,000 and 3,300, probably in the first four months of 2023. Its chief US equity strategist, Mike Wilson, sees a build-up of companies lowering their earnings outlooks then due to recession, which hits stock valuations.

Quote
Bank of America
Markets will be ravaged by a recession next year, with a 0.4% drop in economic growth coming in the first quarter, according to Bank of America.

It also predicts the S&P 500 could lose 24% from current levels to hit as low as 3,000, as companies are forced to cut earnings outlooks. That would mark a new low in the prevailing bear market cycle.

Quote
Deutsche Bank
In its 2023 outlook, Deutsche Bank said it expects global stocks to drop sharply as a severe and protracted downturn hits the US economy. But it sees the slump in US equities coming in the middle of the year, rather than in the early months.

It forecast the S&P 500 will rally to 4,500 in the first half, then will tank by over 25% in the third quarter, as central bank tightening tips the economy into full recession. That would take the index to 3,375.



Plans would be to just keep working/keep investing and saving.....

I missed this. These are great. Now we just have 2-3 more months and we'll know if they were right! By end of Q1 we should see S&P drop 1000 points (25%), ok let's go! Let's see the power of their prognostications Remind me on May 1st.

Wintergreen78

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So I see the SP500 is up 6.6% for January, or about 0.34% per trading day. There are 231 trading days left in 2023. Based on the January trend I predict the SP 500 will be up 217.5% for 2023. My year end target is therefore 8,865.5.

Must_ache

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Doesn't really seem that minimal of a penalty... on a $10k bond paying say 8%, you're looking at a $200 charge.
But if your time frame is only about a year, can't beat a risk-free 6%.

Feels like the market is warming up to disinflation, if maybe prematurely - many of the questions to Powell were all biased in that direction.  I've moved from probably 50% to 85% invested in the last month or so.   Portfolio is still a bit more conservative than the last few years.  I'm 51 with $1.3M and looking to go part time or semi-retire at 55 with $1.5M+
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 07:01:05 PM by Must_ache »

RobertFromTX

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One thing I am cautious about is chasing the recent out-performance of large value, small value, high-dividend etc.

Growth got so beat down in '22 that I just don't think Value will outperform by much in '23.

All said, I still will keep my slight value tilt I get with AVUS.

Didn't take long for this one to be validated. Vanguard's Large Cap Growth is up +16.4% YTD and Schwab's Dividend Fund (SCHD) is only +3.0% and Vanguards High Dividend Fund (VYM) is +2.5%

bmjohnson35

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I just rolled my 401k into an IRA. Since all the funds were placed into a temporary cash account, I had to create a new allocation.  I decided to start off with 60% US stocks, 10% Int stocks and 30% bonds.  My gut tells me that we may see a significant correction in 2023.  If this occurs, I will switch to a 70/10/20 of the above allocation.  If it's a very significant correction, I will switch to an 80/10/10.  I suppose you can call this trying to time the market, but if nothing significant happens, I will simply stay at the 70/30 overall ratio and do nothing.  As for my taxable account, it's at about a 75/25 stock/bonds ratio right now and I doubt I will touch it during the rest of 2023. 

MustacheAndaHalf

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One thing I am cautious about is chasing the recent out-performance of large value, small value, high-dividend etc.

Growth got so beat down in '22 that I just don't think Value will outperform by much in '23.

All said, I still will keep my slight value tilt I get with AVUS.

Didn't take long for this one to be validated. Vanguard's Large Cap Growth is up +16.4% YTD and Schwab's Dividend Fund (SCHD) is only +3.0% and Vanguards High Dividend Fund (VYM) is +2.5%
It sounds like in the first week of February, growth can declare "Mission Accomplished" over value for the rest of 2023.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Accomplished_speech

nereo

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One thing I am cautious about is chasing the recent out-performance of large value, small value, high-dividend etc.

Growth got so beat down in '22 that I just don't think Value will outperform by much in '23.

All said, I still will keep my slight value tilt I get with AVUS.

Didn't take long for this one to be validated. Vanguard's Large Cap Growth is up +16.4% YTD and Schwab's Dividend Fund (SCHD) is only +3.0% and Vanguards High Dividend Fund (VYM) is +2.5%
How do you validate a prediction for ‘23 at the beginning of February?  Seems a bit premature to draw a conclusion on what Value will do relative to Growth.

jnw

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I've shifted towards CD's again with the nice 4+% rates. Working on some laddering instead of sitting on lots of cash. Also iBonds.

What about us treasury bills? I just bought my first one yesterday: $1000 for 17 weeks at around 4.5% apr.  bought from treasury direct.gov.  I never bought CD’s before so I don’t know the trade offs between the two.

I know there are no state income taxes on either ibonds or tbills.  Are cd’s state tax free?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 02:42:15 PM by JenniferW »

jnw

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I’ve recently changed my investment plan. My goal was to pay off mortgage with excess past $10k for ibonds. But my mortgage rate is 4.6%, the same as tbills.  So I’m putting all the extra cash in tbills since it provides me extra insurance if there is an emergency.  Once tbills are less than mortgage rate I’ll pay off mortgage instead.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 02:56:56 PM by JenniferW »

ChpBstrd

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At the risk of being the next @thorstach here goes:

1) The Federal Funds Rate upper bound will peak at 5.25% in March (current consensus) but will not be cut in 2023 (not the consensus).
2) Agree with @MustacheAndaHalf that labor costs will increase at a faster pace than CPI, but only until...
3) A U.S. recession starts in Sept, Oct, or Nov. 2023.
4) The S&P 500 will end the year with a PE in the 15-18 range, as measured on their last year of pre-recession earnings. Higher borrowing costs hit the corporate bottom line, the top line, and simultaneously require de-leveraging.
5) 12-month CPI will hit 3.3% in June and will be near zero by December. Note that inflation for the 2nd half of 2022 was <1%, so this forecast would involve an increase compared to the trend.
6) A financial institution - perhaps Credit Suisse - will come under stress and require some kind of bailout. Losses on long-duration bonds in 2022 were largely hidden by characterizing these bonds as "held until maturity" accounts, but that won't help much when there is a run on deposits and the "available for sale" accounts are also down.
7) The U.K. will also experience recession in 2023.
8) The Case-Shiller U.S. home price index will fall another 10% and then stabilize.
9) The S&P 500 and Nasdaq will experience at least 2 more up-down swings of 10% each before "the bottom is in".
10) Nominal treasuries with long durations (TLT and ZROZ) will increase in value through the year.

I do not know whether the recession will be mild or severe, short or long. It will depend on whether things break in the banking sector. The "go all in" signal is the announcement of 2 successive quarters of negative GDP. Until then, I'm getting paid to wait.

I also do not know if inflation will make a comeback. If you look at the 1970s, there were multiple instances of disinflation, some of which lasted years, only to be followed by another sudden pop in inflation. Our short-term thought process probably needs to zoom out to see if we are in a new cycle like the 70's and early 80's. The ups and downs of inflation and recession can occur over a scale of several years.

nereo

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There can never be another thorstach

Spoiler: show
Thank goodness

MustacheAndaHalf

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2) Agree with @MustacheAndaHalf that labor costs will increase at a faster pace than CPI, but only until...
That was speculative on my part, but will be interesting to watch.  If that idea is correct, CPI should come in slightly higher than expected next week.  But that could be either "inflation is sticky and falling slower than expected" or could be a side effect of wage growth.  CPI falling without slowing would reduce confidence in that theory.

4) The S&P 500 will end the year with a PE in the 15-18 range, as measured on their last year of pre-recession earnings. Higher borrowing costs hit the corporate bottom line, the top line, and simultaneously require de-leveraging.
Isn't 15+ at or above the historical average?  In an average recession, I expect P/E ratios to go fall below their average, but that may or may not occur.

theolympians

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PCCOX: growth, 30%
VINIX: Large CAP, 20%
VSCIX: Small CAP, 20%
VMCIX: Mid CAP, 10%
OGLIX: Global, 10%
RERGX: Euro-Pacific, 10%

Percentages represent continuing contributions. I also have a money market fund that a bulk of cash just sits there, as I am nearing retirement. I do not contribute to it, money accumulates.

ChpBstrd

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4) The S&P 500 will end the year with a PE in the 15-18 range, as measured on their last year of pre-recession earnings. Higher borrowing costs hit the corporate bottom line, the top line, and simultaneously require de-leveraging.
Isn't 15+ at or above the historical average?  In an average recession, I expect P/E ratios to go fall below their average, but that may or may not occur.
The mean S&P500 PE is about 16 and the median is about 14.9.

That said, you'll notice that PE ratios typically spike during recessions as earnings shrink. This is why I don't think the PE ratio or any other metrics based on earnings or cash flows offer good guidance once the recession has started. The index's earnings just prior to the recession provide a better guide about what earnings will look like in 2-3 years.

For example, S&P500 earnings dropped from $161.08 at the end of 2019 to $107.26 at the end of 2020. It would have been incorrect to expect the PE ratio in 2020/2021 to track the previous 12 months' earnings because the market was expecting a resumption of normal business once the recession was over. That largely occurred, with earnings hitting a new record high of $210.64 in 2021. The point is, the 2019 earnings offered a better starting point for forecasting where earnings would be in 2021 (or 2022) than the 2020 earnings. Recessions are deviations from a trendline that will pick up where it left off after the recession is over.

So for a shorthand method, I just ask if stocks would be a bargain if earnings were the same as the year before the recession started. If yes, you'll generally come out on top within 1-4 years.

RobertFromTX

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One thing I am cautious about is chasing the recent out-performance of large value, small value, high-dividend etc.

Growth got so beat down in '22 that I just don't think Value will outperform by much in '23.

All said, I still will keep my slight value tilt I get with AVUS.

Didn't take long for this one to be validated. Vanguard's Large Cap Growth is up +16.4% YTD and Schwab's Dividend Fund (SCHD) is only +3.0% and Vanguards High Dividend Fund (VYM) is +2.5%
It sounds like in the first week of February, growth can declare "Mission Accomplished" over value for the rest of 2023.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Accomplished_speech
How do you validate a prediction for ‘23 at the beginning of February?  Seems a bit premature to draw a conclusion on what Value will do relative to Growth.
YTD through 6/30
VUG +24.60%
VTV --3.39%
(dividends reinvested)

Now, at this point you might be rebalancing a little back in to value.

mistymoney

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Not sure if I saw anyone stating anything this specific and pessimistic...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/from-bank-of-america-to-morgan-stanley-wall-street-giants-are-expecting-stocks-to-crash-more-than-20-next-year-here-s-what-they-ve-been-saying/ar-AA14RdBf?ocid=finance-verthp-feeds&cvid=6865c54c35c240c3b07e2cf1b8ed8b05

Quote
Morgan Stanley
Morgan Stanley expects the S&P 500 to fall 24% to between 3,000 and 3,300, probably in the first four months of 2023. Its chief US equity strategist, Mike Wilson, sees a build-up of companies lowering their earnings outlooks then due to recession, which hits stock valuations.

Quote
Bank of America
Markets will be ravaged by a recession next year, with a 0.4% drop in economic growth coming in the first quarter, according to Bank of America.

It also predicts the S&P 500 could lose 24% from current levels to hit as low as 3,000, as companies are forced to cut earnings outlooks. That would mark a new low in the prevailing bear market cycle.

Quote
Deutsche Bank
In its 2023 outlook, Deutsche Bank said it expects global stocks to drop sharply as a severe and protracted downturn hits the US economy. But it sees the slump in US equities coming in the middle of the year, rather than in the early months.

It forecast the S&P 500 will rally to 4,500 in the first half, then will tank by over 25% in the third quarter, as central bank tightening tips the economy into full recession. That would take the index to 3,375.



Plans would be to just keep working/keep investing and saving.....

First two are out, the Deutsche bank would be eerie precient if it happens, they said rally to 4500 in the first half of the year, and the close on the last day o the first half of the year was 4450.38......

Tanking 25% from here would hurt, not gonna lie! some people have regained their personal ATH with all the new money put in during the 18 months since reaching that ATH.....next step would be new ATHs! I guess we'll find out if that will be taken away!!

MustacheAndaHalf

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One thing I am cautious about is chasing the recent out-performance of large value, small value, high-dividend etc.

Growth got so beat down in '22 that I just don't think Value will outperform by much in '23.

All said, I still will keep my slight value tilt I get with AVUS.

Didn't take long for this one to be validated. Vanguard's Large Cap Growth is up +16.4% YTD and Schwab's Dividend Fund (SCHD) is only +3.0% and Vanguards High Dividend Fund (VYM) is +2.5%
It sounds like in the first week of February, growth can declare "Mission Accomplished" over value for the rest of 2023.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Accomplished_speech
How do you validate a prediction for ‘23 at the beginning of February?  Seems a bit premature to draw a conclusion on what Value will do relative to Growth.
YTD through 6/30
VUG +24.60%
VTV --3.39%
(dividends reinvested)

Now, at this point you might be rebalancing a little back in to value.
Vanguard and Morningstar cite numbers 6% and 9% higher :

VTV +2.56% YTD (Vanguard)
VTV +2.54% YTD (Morningstar)
https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/etfs/profile/vtv#performance-fees
https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/vtv/performance

VUG +33.21% YTD (Vanguard & Morningstar)
https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/etfs/profile/vug#performance-fees
https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/vug/performance

Scandium

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One thing I am cautious about is chasing the recent out-performance of large value, small value, high-dividend etc.

Growth got so beat down in '22 that I just don't think Value will outperform by much in '23.

All said, I still will keep my slight value tilt I get with AVUS.

Didn't take long for this one to be validated. Vanguard's Large Cap Growth is up +16.4% YTD and Schwab's Dividend Fund (SCHD) is only +3.0% and Vanguards High Dividend Fund (VYM) is +2.5%
It sounds like in the first week of February, growth can declare "Mission Accomplished" over value for the rest of 2023.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Accomplished_speech
How do you validate a prediction for ‘23 at the beginning of February?  Seems a bit premature to draw a conclusion on what Value will do relative to Growth.
YTD through 6/30
VUG +24.60%
VTV --3.39%
(dividends reinvested)

Now, at this point you might be rebalancing a little back in to value.
Just make sure you don't let the tail VUG the dog