Author Topic: Alternatives to driving a car?  (Read 13292 times)

sisca

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Alternatives to driving a car?
« on: October 31, 2012, 03:50:20 PM »
For most people, buying, driving and maintaining a car is their single biggest expense next to housing. And MMMs suggestion is living so close to work that bike is the obvious choice. And I totally agree. But.... I don't bike myself. I drive a scooter!

For me a bike is not an easy choice due to a terrible climate, lots and lots of hills (yes, I know the upside to this is lots and lots of excersise) and the fact that the distance is just a little bit longer than I am willing to bike.

A fairly new scooter costs very little, gets great mileage, is quite easy to maintain, you can work on it yourself and parts are reasonable. Insurance is also reasonable. Tire wear is always an issue because of their tiny size, but that is also the only major drawback.

How do guys feel about scooters? And have any of you chosen something else, besides cars, bikes or scooters?

« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 03:54:39 PM by sisca »

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 04:20:19 PM »

What part of the county are you in?

I should bike but I haven't gotten in the habit as the distance is just a little too far - poor excuse though.  That aside I haven't been able to bring myself to buy a scooter, its inexpensive yes but its just another thing to 'have', maintain etc.  for me.  If I knew I'd use it I would go for it but the wussypants climate controlled car interior may still be too enticing for me at 6am each day.

Russ

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 04:31:01 PM »
How do guys feel about scooters?
meh. I'll ride a bike anywhere I'd ride a scooter, and anything further than that I'd rather take a bus/plane/train/whatever. But if it works for you then more power to ya

Quote
And have any of you chosen something else, besides cars, bikes or scooters?
I skateboard places that are further than I'd like to walk, but short enough that I don't want to bother with taking the bike

sisca

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 04:40:46 PM »
I should probably add that I live in Norway, in one of the rainiest city in the country, and that cars here are crazy, insanely expensive. Gas is equally insanely expensive.

It is cold here, but rarely snows, so you'd have to ride a bus maybe 3-4 times a year due to snow, otherwise you are good to go.

capital

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 09:54:51 PM »
Bergen?

I can't imagine a well-equipped bike (with proper fenders) being any less comfortable in the rain than a scooter, especially in cold weather-- riding the bike warms you up, whereas travelling at scooter speed is just extra wind, and that's especially troublesome when you're wet.  I like the exercise, too.

But scooters are pretty cheap, so whatever floats your boat.

Wendyimhome

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 10:12:56 PM »
I always wonder about motorcycles as well.  If you get a large one, the mileage sucks, but small ones, like a Honda Rebel, get good mileage -- I think -- and they also give you enough power that you don't have to worry about being run over in traffic.  I find it frustrating assessing motorcycles' fuel efficiency, however, because they don't post EPAs.  I think that is because they are so variable.

sisca

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 12:16:19 AM »
The mileage on motorcycles is very badly affected by most peoples urge to accelerate and brake way too much, because it is fun.

I think of scooters as replacing cars much more than replacing bikes. And if you get a good leg cover and proper clothes, it is not too bad.

liquidbanana

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2012, 12:23:05 AM »
When I was 19, I had this great and or really obnoxious idea that I would get a moped so that I could get between the city I was going to college in and the rural town my mom lived in. It would have been a 70 mile drive on a highway. At least at that time, it would have been legal. I could have gotten a moped for about $500. Auto insurance wouldn't have been required either. And I'd get like 120 miles per gallon. However, my mom talked me out of it. That was the cheapest option I had though, other than riding a bike, which would have taken all day instead of a few hours.

As far as replacing a bike with a scooter, I think it's fine. Not everyone has the stamina/energy to bike all the time, I don't care what these buff mustache people say. Although I've been a bike commuter off and on my whole adult life, I also suffer from depression. It doesn't matter how fit I am or how much I like biking, some days it just feels like an insurmountable task compared to getting on something motorized.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 12:27:21 AM by liquidbanana »

Jamesqf

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2012, 11:42:26 AM »
For most people, buying, driving and maintaining a car is their single biggest expense next to housing. And MMMs suggestion is living so close to work that bike is the obvious choice.

The flaw there is the assumption that the main and perhaps only use for a car is to get to & from work.

sisca

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2012, 11:50:55 AM »
Jamesqf: Yeah, true, a car also delivers other benefits.
We also do own a car, but for me the scooter is a substitute for a second car, but also the primary method of transportation. The car is for when all of us needs to be somewhere far away.

Any means that will cut into the biggest expense in the household is more than welcome, and this scooter is a real moneysaver for me. Though I totally understand it is not for everyone.

Bakari

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2012, 04:24:06 PM »
In addition to several pedal bicycles, I have a Kawasaki Ninja EX250.
0-60 in under 6 seconds, top speed of over 100mph.

Minimum mileage, with a passenger, lots of hills, and driving fast because its fun, is 50mpg.
If I am trying to get good mileage out of it, it approaches 80mpg.
Costs a few grand brand new, one or two grand on CL a few years old (usually very low mileage, as people learn on it, then "upgrade")


I also frequently commute via rollerblade, which is slower than biking, but more fun.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2012, 05:59:02 PM »
I have been toying with the idea of a scooter. I would not drive one in North Carolina, but should the girlfriend and I move to a 'real' city, I would probably ditch my old car and we'd survive with her ridiculously new sedan + one scooter.

Nudelkopf

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2012, 03:26:36 AM »
I also frequently commute via rollerblade, which is slower than biking, but more fun.
Yeah! Awesome! I wanted to do this, but it's all down hill to uni... and I haven't learnt how to brake yet :-/

Ozstache

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2012, 03:55:51 AM »
I dunno what scooters are like on tires compared to motorbikes, but my experience with commuting on motorcycles is that the high cost and frequency of tire changes pretty much neutralizes the better fuel economy benefits over a small car.

Bakari

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 08:43:23 AM »
I dunno what scooters are like on tires compared to motorbikes, but my experience with commuting on motorcycles is that the high cost and frequency of tire changes pretty much neutralizes the better fuel economy benefits over a small car.

I've heard that a lot, but I don't really understand it.  I have 34,000 miles on my bike, and I've changed the tires once.  Sure, a car's tires should last a little longer than that, but then, it was the stock tires that ran out fairly quickly.  After that first change, my Dunlap GT105 rear and Perilli Sport Demon front have been going strong for years.
And at $200 for a set of premium tires (since I don't want to skimp on grip on a motorbike), they cost a little more per tire than car tires - but since you only have to buy two, its still less overall.

That 34,000 miles, at my bikes 65mpg used up 523 gallons of fuel, or $1569 at $3/gal
In a 35mpg car it would have been 971 gallons, or $2913 at $3/gal.

Even if the tires only lasted 1/2 as long, that would mean spending an extra $200 on tires over the last 11 years, and saving  $1344 in fuel.

sol

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 11:13:02 AM »
Another strike against motorcycles and scooters: even though they use less fuel, they are still worse for the environment because they don't conform to the same emissions standards. No catalytic converters.

MrsKensington

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2012, 08:11:08 PM »
I drive a scooter. I upgraded recently to a 125 cc so I could legally ride with my kid as a passenger. In my case, it saves me about $2,000/year over a car not counting the insurance and gas. It also saves a significant amount of time -- a big deal in my case. Here's how:

--I take the train to work. (Fares are subsidised.). It costs $5 per day to park a car at the station. Motorcycles and scooters are free.
--The car lot fills up by 8. School Starts at 8:50. I'd have to pay $5 per day for precare to drop off the kid in time for me to get a car space.
$50/week right there.
--Bonus: Time is a big factor for me. Minutes matter a lot. there's a cut-through that we scooter drivers use that bypasses a long line of car traffic, saving me a good 15+ mins / day too.
--My kid loves wearing a helmet and riding 1 mile to school every day. I also bypass insanely long line of cars dropping off kids. Again, a time saver. Maybe next year we can bike some, but not sure.

ymmv.

Ozstache

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2012, 01:25:45 AM »
I dunno what scooters are like on tires compared to motorbikes, but my experience with commuting on motorcycles is that the high cost and frequency of tire changes pretty much neutralizes the better fuel economy benefits over a small car.

I've heard that a lot, but I don't really understand it.  I have 34,000 miles on my bike, and I've changed the tires once.  Sure, a car's tires should last a little longer than that, but then, it was the stock tires that ran out fairly quickly.  After that first change, my Dunlap GT105 rear and Perilli Sport Demon front have been going strong for years.
And at $200 for a set of premium tires (since I don't want to skimp on grip on a motorbike), they cost a little more per tire than car tires - but since you only have to buy two, its still less overall.

That 34,000 miles, at my bikes 65mpg used up 523 gallons of fuel, or $1569 at $3/gal
In a 35mpg car it would have been 971 gallons, or $2913 at $3/gal.

Even if the tires only lasted 1/2 as long, that would mean spending an extra $200 on tires over the last 11 years, and saving  $1344 in fuel.

It's probably that you are comparing a frugal motorcycle against an average car whereas I am comparing an average motorcycle to a frugal car.  And that's very impressive mileage you are getting from motorcycle tires!

eg. My motorbike goes through a rear tire every 12000 kms and a front at 24000 kms at $300 a pop here in Oz whereas my car has just cracked 40000 kms on the original tires that look as though they have another 20000 kms left at about $150 per tire when they need changing. My motorbike averages 5 l/100kms whereas my car averages 4l/100kms. Fuel here in Oz is $1.50 a litre.

For 60000 km traveled that works out to be $1500 for five rear tires, $750 for 2.5 front tires and $4500 for fuel for a total of $6750 for the motorcycle.  For the car it's $600 for four tires and $3600 for fuel for a total of $4200.  This is a difference of $2550 in favor of the car.

Now admittedly there are more fuel efficient and tire sparing motorcycles out there than the one I own (Yamaha Super Tenere 1200 BTW), but a replacement would have to be markedly better in both these areas before motorcycle commuting worked out to be cheaper. Sounds like you have one of them, so you've done well!

BTW, when I ER in a few years, the car will go. I was riding to work for the last few years but a few brushes with dodgy drivers and cold winter rides drove me towards a safer, more comfortable form of transport for commuting. The fact that I could salary package my car and pretty much get fuel for free through the tax advantages it gave, which sealed the deal.  Yes I could downsize my motorcycle too, but my wife and I will be touring on it so it wouldn't be practical. Also, it's hard to give up 0-60 mph in 3.5 seconds and still get 47 mpg, especially when I can easily afford it in ER :-)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 01:40:21 AM by Ozstache »

Bakari

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2012, 06:52:00 AM »
Another strike against motorcycles and scooters: even though they use less fuel, they are still worse for the environment because they don't conform to the same emissions standards. No catalytic converters.

That depends on which you consider worse for the environment, NOx or CO2.
If AGW theory is true, than CO2 may be a much bigger problem than smog, and CO2 doesn't have any emission limits.  The amount of it produced by any given vehicle is a direct product of its mpg.  A bike may be worse for the air quality immediately around itself, but a car may be worse for the future of humanity.

grantmeaname

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2012, 01:54:55 PM »
My motorbike averages 5 l/100kms whereas my car averages 4l/100kms.
Your motorcycle uses more fuel than your car. That's not "an average motorcyle and a frugal car", that's an absolutely insane and aberrant situation that I wouldn't even have considered possible before reading this thread. That's why you're getting an odd result.

JT

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2012, 09:57:44 PM »
I "drive" a push bike!!  It's a hard tail mountain bike - 11 years young - but still a great bike (my favourite).  This wonderful contraption saves heaps in petrol/oil and plain old sitting down; and getting out into the fresh air is something I look forward to.  It doesn't need much maintenance either - the most well maintained bits relate to the chain and I do that myself.  Re scooters, while the idea of having one is kind of attractive (as I really, really, really want to sell the car - 10 year old manual hatch) the drivers in Auckland seem to be even less patient (if that's at all possible) with scooter riders than they are push bike riders!  My overall vote is with the bike!!  Also, those hills won't seem as bad after a few months! And they keep you warm!

Ozstache

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2012, 03:55:39 AM »
My motorbike averages 5 l/100kms whereas my car averages 4l/100kms.
Your motorcycle uses more fuel than your car. That's not "an average motorcyle and a frugal car", that's an absolutely insane and aberrant situation that I wouldn't even have considered possible before reading this thread. That's why you're getting an odd result.

5 l/100kms is pretty average for a motorcycle: http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/MotorcycleFuelEconomyGuide/2011-MPG.htm

Scooters just happen to be exceptionally economical.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 03:59:05 AM by Ozstache »

capital

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2012, 01:33:41 PM »
My motorbike averages 5 l/100kms whereas my car averages 4l/100kms.
Your motorcycle uses more fuel than your car. That's not "an average motorcyle and a frugal car", that's an absolutely insane and aberrant situation that I wouldn't even have considered possible before reading this thread. That's why you're getting an odd result.

5 l/100kms is pretty average for a motorcycle: http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/MotorcycleFuelEconomyGuide/2011-MPG.htm

Scooters just happen to be exceptionally economical.
I'm willing to bet the fact that motorcycles aren't required to test for MPG or have an MPG sticker has a lot to do with it. Out of sight, out of mind.

grantmeaname

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 07:33:03 AM »
You're arguing that the average motorcycle uses more fuel than the average car in Australia, or you've made a typo.

Ozstache

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2012, 02:35:21 PM »
You're arguing that the average motorcycle uses more fuel than the average car in Australia, or you've made a typo.

I'm saying, and have shown, that an average motorcycle can use more fuel than a frugal car.

grantmeaname

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 08:55:55 PM »
I don't get how that can be. Here, a heavy motorcycle like a Harley still gets more than twice my gas mileage, and rivals even the most efficient new cars overall. You'd have to choose a very, very poor motorcycle and a ridiculously frugal car to get the numbers even close in the US. Surely the two nations' auto markets can't be that different?

Ozstache

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2012, 12:55:50 AM »
I don't get how that can be. Here, a heavy motorcycle like a Harley still gets more than twice my gas mileage, and rivals even the most efficient new cars overall. You'd have to choose a very, very poor motorcycle and a ridiculously frugal car to get the numbers even close in the US. Surely the two nations' auto markets can't be that different?

Maybe our countries are that different. Looking here http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/buyers-guide/fuel_economy_cars_buyers_guide at a representative set of Aussie frugal mobiles, 11 out of 15 are diesels and I own one of them. My motorbike gets slightly better fuel economy than the average 1200 cc+ Harley I have ridden before. I think this is just a case of Our Mileage Does Vary.

Bakari

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2012, 10:26:26 AM »
I've known a lot of motorcyclists here in the US say they get 30-35mpg.  Its easy to get poor mileage on a motorbike - you just have to buy a liter bike or 1200cc, and make full use of its acceleration and braking power, all the time.  Which is what the average person who buys a motorcycle has in mind.  The same bike might get 40-50mpg being used as a daily commuter by a mustachian, but that isn't the norm.  In the US people buy motorbikes as toys.
The list posted of motorcycle fuel economy doesn't show what test cycle was used to get those numbers, and they aren't broken up by city and highway.  I'm willing to bet the typical owner doesn't drive the way the testers drove.

And a car that can get more than 35mpg isn't all that rare.

sisca

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2012, 10:34:11 AM »
Keep in mind that gas is not the only expense.

BPA

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2012, 05:07:55 AM »
Three years ago I had early stage cancer and was wiped out most of the time.  I bought an electric bike.  When I had the stamina, I would cycle and when I didn't, I would use the battery.  It was the perfect compromise for me (and I charged it at night when rates were cheaper).

Now I'm so glad to have all of my stamina back that I don't want to use an electric bike again.  In fact, I said to my boyfriend when we were cycling yesterday, that it feels so good to feel strong, I hope it's a very long time before I can't cycle using my power.

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Re: Alternatives to driving a car?
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2012, 09:07:47 AM »
I've owned several motorcycles, and would definitely take a small-displacement motorcycle over a scooter, personally.  Many scooters are underpowered for highway use, topping out below a safe highway speed.  A motorcycle lets you travel the superslab safely, and as Bakari mentioned, even a Ninja 250 is plenty fast compared to a car.  It's also uproariously entertaining :) .

I've had a Ninja 500, Triumph 600, Shadow 750, SV650, and Bandit 400.....all of them have exceeded 50mpg regularly, and most can do even better if you consciously ride for fuel economy. 


Another strike against motorcycles and scooters: even though they use less fuel, they are still worse for the environment because they don't conform to the same emissions standards. No catalytic converters.

Updated emissions standards were introduced in 2006 for motorcycles.  Two of my current bikes have full emissions controls, including catalytic converters and evaporative emissions canisters.