Author Topic: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment  (Read 9595 times)

Glenstache

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NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« on: September 16, 2014, 11:47:50 AM »
I heard this bit as a radio piece this morning on NPR.  I see a combination of poor financial literacy and poor decisions combined with unethical/predatory debt collection practices leading to some difficult situations for people. I expect very few people on MMM would end up in these situations. If they were, how would they get out?

http://www.npr.org/2014/09/15/347957729/when-consumer-debts-go-unpaid-paychecks-can-take-a-big-hit

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on it.

4alpacas

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2014, 12:28:38 PM »
Wow!  I've heard of wage garnishment for taxes and child support, but I didn't realize it was possible for consumer debt. 

Zikoris

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 12:45:52 PM »
If I were in that situation for some crazy reason, I'd just stop spending so much, live on 30-35% of my income, and dump the rest at the debt - boom, gone completely in less than a year.

I would obviously never end up in that situation to begin with, especially if I'd been working a well-paying job for 25 years - that's enough time to go from zero to retired twice!

Prairie Stash

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 12:48:11 PM »
He's bringing in $1,920/check and paying $480 (26 checks/year). So only $3120/month to live on for a single person? I think they could have picked a better example. 

Maybe he could cut back his expenses and get out of it faster. Or pick up some extra hours. Or stick to payment plans he agreed to.

hybrid

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2014, 12:59:59 PM »
If I were in that situation for some crazy reason, I'd just stop spending so much, live on 30-35% of my income, and dump the rest at the debt - boom, gone completely in less than a year.

I would obviously never end up in that situation to begin with, especially if I'd been working a well-paying job for 25 years - that's enough time to go from zero to retired twice!

Yes, and being in Canada means something like cancer would never bankrupt you either. We in the States still haven't fully grappled with the notion that our Canadian neighbors and their dreaded "rationed care" are living longer than Americans on average. The scaremongers in the Lower 48 would have you think Canada is the absolute worst place to get sick. The numbers suggest differently (Canadians live two years longer on average), and for a much smaller share of GDP.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html 

rocksinmyhead

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2014, 01:09:03 PM »
Obviously this guy could have made some better decisions (and I think it's funny that you can see a kayak in the background of the photo... wow, rough life ;)), but holy shit I didn't realize how predatory credit cards can be (having never carried a balance):

"By early 2010, Evans had fallen so far behind that Capital One suspended his card. For months, he made monthly $200 payments toward his $7,000 debt, according to statements reviewed by NPR and ProPublica. But by this time, the payments barely kept pace with the interest piling on at 26 percent. In 2011, when Evans could no longer keep up, Capital One filed suit. Court records show that Evans was served a summons, but he says he didn't understand that the stack of paperwork he received included a summons with a hearing date to appear in court."

It's not even like he wasn't making payments. 26%, that's pretty insane.

No Name Guy

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2014, 01:22:26 PM »
Meh.....just like any deadbeat who doesn't pay his bills.  He got sued.  Didn't show.  Default judgement is entered. 

Quote
but he says he didn't understand that the stack of paperwork he received included a summons with a hearing date to appear in court.

First rule of dealing with the Courts - don't ignore a summons.  Bad things happen when you ignore a summons.

Wow!  I've heard of wage garnishment for taxes and child support, but I didn't realize it was possible for consumer debt. 

It's not for a consumer debt.  Its for a judgement.  Capitol One can't just get a garnishment on a CC bill.  They sued him, obtained a judgement, and are able to get the garnishment on the judgement.

That said, Chapter 7 or Chapter 13 are possibly options for this guy.  Other than that, I don't have much sympathy for him.  He metaphorically shot himself in the foot by not answering the summons, losing all options to negotiate.

Prairie Stash

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2014, 01:44:13 PM »
Obviously this guy could have made some better decisions (and I think it's funny that you can see a kayak in the background of the photo... wow, rough life ;)), but holy shit I didn't realize how predatory credit cards can be (having never carried a balance):

"By early 2010, Evans had fallen so far behind that Capital One suspended his card. For months, he made monthly $200 payments toward his $7,000 debt, according to statements reviewed by NPR and ProPublica. But by this time, the payments barely kept pace with the interest piling on at 26 percent. In 2011, when Evans could no longer keep up, Capital One filed suit. Court records show that Evans was served a summons, but he says he didn't understand that the stack of paperwork he received included a summons with a hearing date to appear in court."

It's not even like he wasn't making payments. 26%, that's pretty insane.
He wasn't making payments, the story said he stopped making payments. What started as 7k ballooned to 15K when he stopped making payments. It also states that judgments are obtained only after several months of missed payments.

I agree the rate is obscene.  However his choice to ignore it wasn't too great.

BaldingStoic

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2014, 01:50:25 PM »
I listened to this story on my drive in  to work this morning, and was only slightly sympathetic for the debtors.  With borrowing comes an obligation to repay.  I fully support wage-garnishment (though perhaps the max percentage should be tweaked).  What shocked me, though, was the story where the collection agency zero'd out the woman's bank account.  Wage garnishment must suck but you can prepare and budget for it; Having your bank account suddenly drawn down could cause massive cascading financial problems and shouldn't be allowed without amply warning. 

Like others have stated,  by simply showing up in court and pushing for a reasonable compromise a lot of future pain could be avoided.   Or better yet, work directly to come up with a reasonable payment plan before it even goes to court. 

RelaxedGal

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2014, 01:55:11 PM »
I expect very few people on MMM would end up in these situations. If they were, how would they get out?

From what I've read of MMM: Sell the kayak and the air conditioner visible in the picture, along with a few other things.  Move from the small apartment back into a shared apartment, or get a roommate.  If applicable: move to a cheaper cellphone plan, drop cable, sell the car and commute by bike or public transit.  Make own food and drinks rather than buying at a restaurant.

That answers the original question by giving him some monthly breathing room. As for the story itself: I do feel bad for the guy, he's in a tough place.  I do like the idea of the interest dropping from 26% down to 10% after judgement, as in Illinois.  The story also brings up the seizure of money from bank accounts, and how people in that situation shun banks.  It can really lead to a bad, bad spiral.  Now that the gent profiled is in a better paying job I really hope he can get ahead.

StashDaddy

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2014, 02:01:39 PM »
If you haven't noticed, NPR has a very liberal slant.  To them, all poor people are made out to be victims, instead of people who made/make very poor decisions in life. 


rocksinmyhead

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2014, 02:03:48 PM »
I do like the idea of the interest dropping from 26% down to 10% after judgement, as in Illinois.  The story also brings up the seizure of money from bank accounts, and how people in that situation shun banks.  It can really lead to a bad, bad spiral.

agreed on all points (and also your Mustachian suggestions on how to deal with his situation).

Obviously this guy could have made some better decisions (and I think it's funny that you can see a kayak in the background of the photo... wow, rough life ;)), but holy shit I didn't realize how predatory credit cards can be (having never carried a balance):

"By early 2010, Evans had fallen so far behind that Capital One suspended his card. For months, he made monthly $200 payments toward his $7,000 debt, according to statements reviewed by NPR and ProPublica. But by this time, the payments barely kept pace with the interest piling on at 26 percent. In 2011, when Evans could no longer keep up, Capital One filed suit. Court records show that Evans was served a summons, but he says he didn't understand that the stack of paperwork he received included a summons with a hearing date to appear in court."

It's not even like he wasn't making payments. 26%, that's pretty insane.
He wasn't making payments, the story said he stopped making payments. What started as 7k ballooned to 15K when he stopped making payments. It also states that judgments are obtained only after several months of missed payments.

I agree the rate is obscene.  However his choice to ignore it wasn't too great.

I guess I'm confused on the timeline. It makes sense that he must have stopped making payments at some point, but the part I quoted makes it sound like he was paying $200/month, that wasn't covering the interest, and then Capital One filed suit. Maybe it's just worded poorly.

AH013

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2014, 02:08:37 PM »
Quote
Court records show that Evans was served a summons, but he says he didn't understand that the stack of paperwork he received included a summons with a hearing date to appear in court.

I guess a process server walking up to you, confirming your name, and then saying "You've been served" can be confusing to many.  Don't really understand why he wouldn't read through the "stack of paperwork" at least -- he seemed to find enough time over the past 5 years to read a myriad of news articles, post his thoughts, and then run a blog about how capitalism is evil, yadayadayada.

Sadly, many people in the US pretend their legal issues will go away simply by ignoring them, and then when the get hit with the inevitable garnishments, credit report dings, etc. instead of having the decency to admit they are in the position they are in because of their own inaction, they seek media attention to shame companies who are just trying to get paid as promised.

What interest rate does he think is fair to have to hound someone for 5+ years, tracking them down as they bounce between temporary living arrangements, paying for paralegals & process servers to deliver legal summons that go returned or disregarded, sending attorneys to appear in court, hiring private detectives to identify where someone is living/working all the time, hiring paralegals to submit garnishment requests, etc.  Had Capital One had the $7k this guy owed them back in 2009, they could have invested it in the S&P 500 and had over $21k now.  Instead they had to take on a ton more risk that this guy could continue to dodge the debt, managed to instead get "lucky" and still only get $16k out of the deal, nevermind all the costs they had to pay to force a payment.

As rocksinmyhead noted, the guy clearly has enough money to buy a kayak and sit around on his laptop for the rest of the night/weekends after he chooses to stop working.

AH013

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2014, 02:35:01 PM »
I guess I'm confused on the timeline. It makes sense that he must have stopped making payments at some point, but the part I quoted makes it sound like he was paying $200/month, that wasn't covering the interest, and then Capital One filed suit. Maybe it's just worded poorly.

I think it's poorly worded, or perhaps well worded to invoke victim mentality.  His debt was $7,000.  He was making $200/month payments.  Back of the envelope calculations @ 26% APY, that broke into $135 interest, $65 principal, on a 6 year repayment schedule which is common for many cards.  He must have felt there was no point in trying to whittle this down at probably the minimum payment ("barely kept pace with the interest") and decided to stop paying.  When this happens he must have thought this means the debt goes away, or else I don't really understand why he neither decided to try to start repaying this debt for the ~6 months he was employed before they started garnishing his wages nor lacked surprise when his paycheck was eventually garnished.

Primm

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2014, 02:40:58 PM »
Mrs. Evans notes that since the divorce, HER financial situation has improved significantly, despite being a single mother.

Doesn't surprise me. Both me and my sister had the same experience. Fortunately my current husband isn't in the same mould.

neophyte

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2014, 03:15:03 PM »
I find the 1 in 10 people figure shocking. But I also notice they don't mention what percentage of wage garnishments are for child support.  I'd like to know that figure. I tend to assume that that is the reason for the majority of garnishments.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2014, 03:24:21 PM »
yeah, and I also agree with his ex-wife's comment that rolling medical debt into the "consumer debt" category with credit cards and student loans doesn't necessarily give a fair picture. IMO medical debt is truly a "there but for the grace of God go I" scenario, and I feel really, really bad for people whose finances are decimated by it.

kite

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2014, 04:36:20 PM »
If you haven't noticed, NPR has a very liberal slant.  To them, all poor people are made out to be victims, instead of people who made/make very poor decisions in life.
I do realize that,  which has me perplexed at some of their choice of a person to feature for this story.   He doesn't come off as sympathetic.   For that matter, many people profiled in the media with foreclosures,  etc. had some self inflicted financial problems.   Instead of feeling compassion,  these things make me a little more indifferent.   

Emilyngh

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2014, 05:31:51 PM »
Interesting.   I didn't realize that this was regularly done.   I knew that wages could be garnished, I guess I just assumed cc companies would writeoff and/r sell the debt, not sue.

Good to know I guess (although hopefully will never come in handy).

randymarsh

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2014, 07:30:07 PM »
Wow!  I've heard of wage garnishment for taxes and child support, but I didn't realize it was possible for consumer debt.

Not just consumer debt, at least not what we typically think of. My friend had a roommate bail half way through a lease. She went to small claims court, won, and garnished her former roommate's wages.

AtlantaBob

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2014, 08:46:12 PM »
As someone who used to work as a paralegal for a commercial collection law firm... my experience was as follows (other firms may be different, etc.). I realize that some may disagree with my assessment, but I'm trying to explain how I saw it (again, from a limited perspective) for a few years:

1. We made several attempts to contact individuals before we sued them. In almost every case, someone who received a debt-collection letter would either (a) respond to it, and ask to work out a repayment plan, or (b) completely ignore it. In almost every (a) case, the client would agree to accept ANY repayment plan (e.g., $50/month on a $10,000 debt). I don't remember ever seeing a case where a client deliberately screwed over a debtor making an attempt at repayment, even if it seemed unreasonable (e.g., $50/month on a $10,000 debt) In almost every case, this agreement (a consent judgment) would FREEZE any interest on the principal.

2. At least in Georgia, the "stack of paperwork" is MAYBE 7 pages. It's pretty clear, even if you don't speak lawyer, that you need to contact the Plaintiff's lawyer, or file a response within 30 days of receiving a summons. Again, if you write, email, call, etc. -- in my experience -- people were willing to work with you. However -- again, this is my experience -- if a Sheriff rings your door bell, verifies your identify, and hands you a stack of legal papers -- you should probably read through them.

That being said, I can see how people who can't read could get screwed over by the system. But, in my--admittedly limited--experience, anyone who called the law office after being served got a very fair chance to dispute the debt, or negotiate a deal. I'm not going to say that this holds true for every law firm. But, in my experience, most of the people who ended up with a judgment/garnishment against them ignored several* summons.

*Again, in Georgia, you would have received a summons for the original lawsuit; you would have ignored it for at least 45 days; then the Plaintiff would have filed another lawsuit, which you would have to be served with, and you would have had to ignore for 7+ days before any money left your account.

Finally, the interest rate rules among states are crazy (and maybe the Feds should step in here). In some states, you can have a judgment entered against you and pay .01% interest on the judgment amount, while in another neighboring state, you might pay 9%+on the same amount. I agree that this isn't fair, and needs to be addressed.

iris lily

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2014, 09:21:40 PM »
If you haven't noticed, NPR has a very liberal slant.  To them, all poor people are made out to be victims, instead of people who made/make very poor decisions in life.
I do realize that,  which has me perplexed at some of their choice of a person to feature for this story.   He doesn't come off as sympathetic.   For that matter, many people profiled in the media with foreclosures,  etc. had some self inflicted financial problems.   Instead of feeling compassion,  these things make me a little more indifferent.

That's interesting, maybe this is their one story a month where they attempt to be fair and balanced.

I love NPR and listen regularly, but I become exasperated with their liberal agenda and slant.

Irs Glass did a show a few years ago where he claimed to measure NPR's "liberal" slant and he couldn't find one. Ira Ira Ira, I loves ya baby, but c'MON.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2014, 01:16:31 PM »
As someone who used to work as a paralegal for a commercial collection law firm... my experience was as follows (other firms may be different, etc.). I realize that some may disagree with my assessment, but I'm trying to explain how I saw it (again, from a limited perspective) for a few years:

1. We made several attempts to contact individuals before we sued them. In almost every case, someone who received a debt-collection letter would either (a) respond to it, and ask to work out a repayment plan, or (b) completely ignore it. In almost every (a) case, the client would agree to accept ANY repayment plan (e.g., $50/month on a $10,000 debt). I don't remember ever seeing a case where a client deliberately screwed over a debtor making an attempt at repayment, even if it seemed unreasonable (e.g., $50/month on a $10,000 debt) In almost every case, this agreement (a consent judgment) would FREEZE any interest on the principal.

2. At least in Georgia, the "stack of paperwork" is MAYBE 7 pages. It's pretty clear, even if you don't speak lawyer, that you need to contact the Plaintiff's lawyer, or file a response within 30 days of receiving a summons. Again, if you write, email, call, etc. -- in my experience -- people were willing to work with you. However -- again, this is my experience -- if a Sheriff rings your door bell, verifies your identify, and hands you a stack of legal papers -- you should probably read through them.

That being said, I can see how people who can't read could get screwed over by the system. But, in my--admittedly limited--experience, anyone who called the law office after being served got a very fair chance to dispute the debt, or negotiate a deal. I'm not going to say that this holds true for every law firm. But, in my experience, most of the people who ended up with a judgment/garnishment against them ignored several* summons.

*Again, in Georgia, you would have received a summons for the original lawsuit; you would have ignored it for at least 45 days; then the Plaintiff would have filed another lawsuit, which you would have to be served with, and you would have had to ignore for 7+ days before any money left your account.

Finally, the interest rate rules among states are crazy (and maybe the Feds should step in here). In some states, you can have a judgment entered against you and pay .01% interest on the judgment amount, while in another neighboring state, you might pay 9%+on the same amount. I agree that this isn't fair, and needs to be addressed.

very interesting, AtlantaBob. thanks for the info!

dandarc

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2014, 01:43:46 PM »
If anyone thinks these are overly harsh - check out what happens if you have a tax issue and let it get to the point the IRS garnishes your wages - you might call it forced mustachianism, regardless of income.

TrulyStashin

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2014, 02:36:59 PM »
I listened to this story on my drive in  to work this morning, and was only slightly sympathetic for the debtors.  With borrowing comes an obligation to repay.  I fully support wage-garnishment (though perhaps the max percentage should be tweaked).  What shocked me, though, was the story where the collection agency zero'd out the woman's bank account.  Wage garnishment must suck but you can prepare and budget for it; Having your bank account suddenly drawn down could cause massive cascading financial problems and shouldn't be allowed without amply warning. 

Like others have stated,  by simply showing up in court and pushing for a reasonable compromise a lot of future pain could be avoided.   Or better yet, work directly to come up with a reasonable payment plan before it even goes to court.

One of the methods that attorneys for creditors use, to keep the debtor from effectively "showing up" is to repeatedly request continuances from the court.  Consider that each time the debtor has to show up in court means lost hours at work.  So, after a couple of tries, and a continuance each time, the debtor doesn't show and the attorney moves for a default judgment.  The attorney will keep this game going until the debtor gives up.

It's a nasty way to game the system against debtors.  And remember, we're talking about people who don't make a lot of money/ have never made a lot of money, have minimal financial education, and few resources to defend themselves.  They're easy pickings.

Edited to add:
  In Va, "service" can be achieved by mailing notice to the debtor's last known address -- it's called "Service on the Secretary of the Commonwealth" and it happened to me in 2007. 

Back in May of 2003, my house flooded from a nearby creek.  Insurance denied almost $8k of the clean up company's bill because they had gouged me and gone WAY beyond standard clean up protocols.  In Dec of 2003, the clean up company agreed to write it off (after my insurance agent leaned on them and swore she would no longer refer clients to them).  It didn't occur to me to get it in writing, and I was pretty overwhelmed with a second flood (Sept. 2003), divorce, and custody battle.   

Fast forward to 2007, when a routine check of my credit turned up a default judgment!  The clean up company had waited until right before the statute of limitations expired and then filed suit.  Despite the fact that my employer hadn't changed and a Google search would have found me in a nanosecond, they made no attempt to contact me.  They served me on the secretary of the commonwealth -- the notice was mailed to the address of the flooded house.   

Here's the kicker -- that house had been demolished in 2005.   It cost me thousands of dollars to hire an attorney to unwind that mess from my credit and I was a single mother, teaching and working two part-time jobs.  It was a terrible blow to my finances.  Thank God, I was able to quash the judgment and settle the debt for $1,300 (which was pretty much every dime I had in my savings account at the time).
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 02:58:33 PM by TrulyStashin »

RetiredAt63

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2014, 11:48:58 AM »
Wow, to go OT a bit, Canada is #14 and the first North/South/Central American country listed, the countries ahead of us are in Europe/Asia).


Yes, and being in Canada means something like cancer would never bankrupt you either. We in the States still haven't fully grappled with the notion that our Canadian neighbors and their dreaded "rationed care" are living longer than Americans on average. The scaremongers in the Lower 48 would have you think Canada is the absolute worst place to get sick. The numbers suggest differently (Canadians live two years longer on average), and for a much smaller share of GDP.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

iris lily

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Re: NPR Story on Wage Garnishment
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2014, 01:32:41 PM »

Have you seen the comic by his ex girlfriend?

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/01/07/comic-book-legends-revealed-242/

haha, nope. I'm going to Ira's song and dance show on November 1st. I kinda have love/hate feelings for him and that cartoon cemented it.

He's been trying to break out of This American Life for a long time. I can tell that he's bored with it.