Case Study -- Please help me whittle down our budget!

[sarah8001]

As someone who has looked into many "healthy" diets and cooked for several people who have similar health problems to your family, I feel where you are coming from. Sometimes I feel shackled whenever I walk into the kitchen or grocery store. A couple points:
Is the paleo diet REALLY that healthy? I'm pretty sure our ancestors actually ate roots, berries, termites, and rats, not bacon and steak (probably like bears today). I'm also pretty sure they didn't eat that much meat. One thing to remember is that the paleo diet really is a fad. Three years ago almost no one knew about it, and three years from now it will have the same derision that the Atkin's diet does today. Try to pull out the nutritional advice from the diet and leave the bacon loving, fad culture part behind (eat less carbs, eat fats, eat high quality foods, eat appropriate levels of protein, etc).
One of the reasons that everyone is focusing so hard on your diet is because you need over 500k in investments just to PAY FOR FOOD. You have significantly less than that. Food is a huge, huge portion of your take home pay.
Remember that doctors only make money if you're sick. Health bloggers only make money if you're scared of something. Almost all studies are performed by corporations, for profit, and the findings can be manipulated. As a scientist, I can tell you that studies can be manipulated to "suggest" almost anything (usually not maliciously, usually just because the people performing the study are incredibly biased). Really examine every piece of evidence you receive. My guess is that you probably are a lot tougher than you think you are. The fluroide thing PROBABLY isn't necessary.
Lastly, as an example of a lower food budget, here is what I would probably try to feed my family if they had your family's health problems: gluten free grains (sprouted or soaked, if that's your thing), all vegetables, sweet potatoes, white potatoes (they're not as bad as you think), bananas, oranges, berries (buy frozen), chicken (whole organic chicken 2.79/lb at Costco), quinoa, and occasional cuts of pork or beef. Try making hash for breakfast. It's amazing. If you're willing to develop a relationship with a local farmer (I recommend it) then you may have access to other natural, healthy foods at decent prices, like raw milk, grassfed butter, and grassfed beef and pork. With your sensitivities, I would make a new rule: nothing premade comes into this house. They sneak eggs, soy, and corn into everything these days. Plus, its cheaper usually :) BTW, I'm not super familiar with fructose malabsorption, so I just did a quick search for acceptable foods. You can leave anything out that is not ok.

[RelaxedGal]

The only small thing that has not been mentioned already: make sure you get the tax deduction for gluten free foods and others needed by your household,

http://celiac.org/celiac-disease/resources/tax-deductions/

With a food budget that high it should help.  Father-in-law has Celiac's so I have taken a good look at the substitutes in the grocery store, I can see how it would get pricey.

That said, I'll pile on to the others before me: Get the grocery bill down - I love the cow share idea, but we belong to a meat CSA instead so we don't have to buy a chest freezer.  We pay $10/lb.  Start contributing to husband's work 401K to get the match, if eligible - way better return than paying down debt). 

[quelinda]

Okay So now that THAT's out of the way. i am sure you have seen these but I thought I would post them just in case. Oamc can really help with food waste and Paleo Mama works with a two hundred a week budget. Cutting the food budget in half would go a long way. Dietary restrictions can be expensive and a pain (family members have celiacs and dairy allergies) You have to do what must be done but..  As to the rest you have to find a way to save at least to the 401K match, time is your friend and it won't get any easier later, it will just take more money. It's always rough at the beginning, in the middle and till the end. Your budget lines aren't much different than ours - except the mortgage and the food budget. The mortgage deal is done so work with what you can and keep going.

http://onceamonthmeals.com/menus/paleo/
http://paleoonabudget.com/
http://thepaleomama.com/2013/10/30cheapmaindishpaleomeals/

Thank you so much! I will check out the links.

[quelinda]

Thank you again everyone. These are the changes we'll be making at first:

• Lowering our gift/holiday budget.
• Switching our cell phones to something cheaper.
• Getting back to meal planning.
• Writing down every single thing we buy at the grocery store to see what changes we can make
  (I've already calculated that I can make sausages or meatballs at home for less than half the cost).
• Asking around for a meat CSA or cow share opportunities.
  
• Evaluating every.single.purchase. and possibly changing how I do the contingency fund.
• Calling around for cheaper car & homeowner's insurance.
• Looking into DH's 401K match.

[pachnik]

Thank you again everyone. These are the changes we'll be making at first:

• Lowering our gift/holiday budget.
• Switching our cell phones to something cheaper.
• Getting back to meal planning.
• Writing down every single thing we buy at the grocery store to see what changes we can make
  (I've already calculated that I can make sausages or meatballs at home for less than half the cost).
• Asking around for a meat CSA or cow share opportunities.
  
• Evaluating every.single.purchase. and possibly changing how I do the contingency fund.
• Calling around for cheaper car & homeowner's insurance.
• Looking into DH's 401K match.

I am a little late but wanted to welcome you to the forum. 

These sound like very good things to look into.  I am sure you will be able to cut a lot of fat out from your food budget (no pun intended) just from doing meal planning.  Meal planning also keeps me organized.  And making the sausages and meatballs from scratch is an excellent money saver as well as kind of impressive (this is how I see it for myself anyway) :)

I have a feeling that you will be very pleased with your results once you get started on those changes.  Just remember, it is a lot to do at once but you will succeed.  Keep posting in your journal and let us know of your successes!

Pachnik

[onourway]

Have you looked into CSAs in your area?  CSA stands for community-supported agriculture, and they are also known as "farm shares".

We actually belong to a CSA, but I'm wondering if it's such a good idea for us. There are some things we can't eat due to food intolerances, and some food gets wasted. In fact, that's one area I need to be better in as well -- not wasting food.

The food waste thing can be huge.  My husband and I recently whittled down our food budget (though it's never been as high as yours, and we live in NYC) in part by making sure we waste as little as possible.  If we've purchased food and it's about to go bad, it's got to get eaten.  If we're meal planning for the week (super important, btw), we base it on what's in the cupboard.  Otherwise you're literally throwing dollars away.  No fancy paleo food is as expensive as food you don't eat.

Also, I'm not paleo and get that people have trouble with beans, but bulk staples are REALLY cheap, particularly at Costco but even elsewhere.  Can you experiment with different types of beans or legumes? Lentils might be easier on the stomach, or split peas.  Beans can round out something else in a meal if a bowl-ful of beans is unappealing.  What about brown rice?  Can no one in your family eat rice?  I know these things aren't paleo, but they're gluten free and generally accepted as very healthy foods.  Are your kids actually paleo, because that seems like a tough diet for a kid?  Maybe at least feed them some more rice?

[MayDay]

It's almost deer season in WI, right?

Ask around if there are any deer hunters who will either let you have their extras if you pay processing costs, or who have last years deer meat in their freezer and want to clean it out for this years fresh deer.  Around here (OH) we have deer commit out our ears, and it is super easy to find extra meat if you know who to ask.  Farmers are allowed to shoot unlimited nuisance deer, and typically just leave them on e edge of the fields, but are happy to have someone come pick it up and process it.

Also, if you don't like deer because of its taste, you can make sausage and that will disguise the taste quite a bit.

[catccc]

A lot of good advice here already. 

Like everyone else has pointed out, your grocery budget is out of control.  FWIW, my family eats similarly to yours, but probably with a lot less meat (me and kids are vegetarian, DH eats meat very occasionally).  So we eat a lot of veggies.  And we spend under $400 a month on groceries.  Someone else mentioned it, but just go for the whole variety of whatever convenience specialty foods you'd be buying.  Instead of getting expensive special ingredients to make something like "paleo" muffins, just don't eat muffins.  Don't eat overpriced substitutes for the stuff you can't eat.

Also, instead of meal planning, try the stocked fridge/pantry method of cooking.  I find that this allows for more creativity, helps with the bill (no more spending money on a specific ingredient, you just buy the stuff that meets your needs that you know is budget friendly, and make meals up as you go...)

the next things are not big ticket items, but:

I think $50/month on clothes is a lot.  I suggest a year long total clothing spend fast for you and DH.  Most grown ups don't wear through clothes that quickly.  If your kids need clothes, get them 2nd hand, and sell the ones that the older one has outgrown. 

Drop the netflix, just use hulu free or the network sites to watch things.

IDK what you use the computer supplies budget for, but I suspect this is unnecessary.

[quelinda]

Just went grocery shopping:

5-lb. bag of carrots: $5.99
5-lb russet potatoes: $5.99
5-lb red potatoes: $5.99
sweet potatoes ($1.99/lb): $4.06
1-lb. strawberries: $4.99
28-oz can fire-roasted tomatoes: $3.39
broccoli ($1.99/lb): $2.57
cauliflower ($2.99/lb): $5.38
beef marrow bones ($5.49/lb): $8.84
bulk seasoned pork sausage ($5.99/lb): $14.67

All produce is organic.

The strawberries are for my son's lunch -- with his fructose malabsorption he is limited in what fruits he can have. Apples and pears are out, which is seriously depressing. It's pretty much pineapple and berries for him, and not more than half a cup or so a day.

The bones are to make bone broth, which I use instead of water for pretty much everything. I just started a crockpot of broth this morning.

The pork sausage is to make breakfast sausage and hash. Our co-op did not have unseasoned, which I suspect would be cheaper, but I'll look around. I do know that the seasoned stuff goes on sale occasionally, so I'll stock up and freeze it when it does.

We *do* eat potatoes, obviously, and white rice. My kids are not 100% paleo -- actually, none of us are. (In my original post I said we *try* to eat paleo.) We do eat the occasional (gluten-free, homemade) pizza and rolls in addition to rice and some (store-bought) gluten-free crackers and very, very occasionally (store-bought) gluten-free pasta.

Anyway, tonight we are having crockpot beef stew (carrots, potatoes, diced tomatoes, beef stew meat) along with homemade sweet potato biscuits and maybe braised kale if I have time.

[quelinda]

I've been thinking...why does everyone say paleo food is "fancy"? It's essentially whole, nutrient-dense food. I know I'm not a poster child for doing it inexpensively, but essentially it's meat, vegetables, and some fruit -- with an emphasis on choosing things that offer the most nutrient density (i.e., grass-fed beef for the good omega3:6 ratio, a variety of vegetables, organ meats, bone broth).

[Angie55]

Wow your prices are ridiculously high. Are you watching sales at all? Where are you shopping? Since you are a SAHM I would suggest putting more effort into matching your meals to whats on sale and creating a price book. You may have to go to more than one store and forego some things once in awhile. For instance, I would never pay 4.99 for a lb of strawberries that could get eaten in two sittings (my limit is more like 1.75 a lb).... Find what food is on sale that fits your diet and budget and buy it. Stock up and freeze berries when they are cheap in the summer to have throughout the winter. Once you start paying attention to prices you should know a price threshold for the basics. If its over the threshold don't buy it! Once you start reading the ads you'll get an idea of how often stuff goes on sale and what price. This actually shouldn't take too long since you eat healthy you can skip 75% of the pages.

[highcountry]

How long does it take you to go through 17 lbs of potatoes?  I am not feeding four, but it seems like some of those would go bad before you ate them unless you have a root cellar. 

Paleo is fancy because it is nutrient dense, whole foods.  You can eat much cheaper on rice and beans, and the more rice and beans there are in your diet, the less money you will spend.  For me, knowing what paleo does for me (weight management, joint health, skin tone, general appearance of health, digestion, blood sugar, etc, reduced inflammation in a body with issues with that..)  the price difference of a hundred or so a month more per person is easily outbalanced by the health, but for people who either do not have my health problems, or have never eaten like this, that price difference would appear huge.  From what I have seen in this discussion though, I suspect a lot of your price problem is due to food waste, and not to reduced rice intake.  For that problem, I'd check out these:http://offbeathome.com/2014/08/perishables-app , http://offbeathome.com/2014/06/refrigerator-basket-meal-plan

[Gin1984]

Just went grocery shopping:

5-lb. bag of carrots: $5.99
5-lb russet potatoes: $5.99
5-lb red potatoes: $5.99
sweet potatoes ($1.99/lb): $4.06
1-lb. strawberries: $4.99
28-oz can fire-roasted tomatoes: $3.39
broccoli ($1.99/lb): $2.57
cauliflower ($2.99/lb): $5.38
beef marrow bones ($5.49/lb): $8.84
bulk seasoned pork sausage ($5.99/lb): $14.67

The strawberries are for my son's lunch -- with his fructose malabsorption he is limited in what fruits he can have. Apples and pears are out, which is seriously depressing. It's pretty much pineapple and berries for him, and not more than half a cup or so a day.

The bones are to make bone broth, which I use instead of water for pretty much everything. I just started a crockpot of broth this morning.

The pork sausage is to make breakfast sausage and hash. Our co-op did not have unseasoned, which I suspect would be cheaper, but I'll look around. I do know that the seasoned stuff goes on sale occasionally, so I'll stock up and freeze it when it does.

We *do* eat potatoes, obviously, and white rice. My kids are not 100% paleo -- actually, none of us are. (In my original post I said we *try* to eat paleo.) We do eat the occasional (gluten-free, homemade) pizza and rolls in addition to rice and some (store-bought) gluten-free crackers and very, very occasionally (store-bought) gluten-free pasta.

Anyway, tonight we are having crockpot beef stew (carrots, potatoes, diced tomatoes, beef stew meat) along with homemade sweet potato biscuits and maybe braised kale if I have time.

Did you just pay $5.49/lb for BONES?  Not meat, but bones?

[quelinda]

Wow your prices are ridiculously high. Are you watching sales at all? Where are you shopping? Since you are a SAHM I would suggest putting more effort into matching your meals to whats on sale and creating a price book. You may have to go to more than one store and forego some things once in awhile. For instance, I would never pay 4.99 for a lb of strawberries that could get eaten in two sittings (my limit is more like 1.75 a lb).... Find what food is on sale that fits your diet and budget and buy it. Stock up and freeze berries when they are cheap in the summer to have throughout the winter. Once you start paying attention to prices you should know a price threshold for the basics. If its over the threshold don't buy it! Once you start reading the ads you'll get an idea of how often stuff goes on sale and what price. This actually shouldn't take too long since you eat healthy you can skip 75% of the pages.

Ridiculously high even for organic?

[quelinda]

How long does it take you to go through 17 lbs of potatoes?  I am not feeding four, but it seems like some of those would go bad before you ate them unless you have a root cellar.

Well, I just boiled and mashed the sweet potatoes to make biscuits for tonight, and the rest seem to store in the fridge for weeks just fine.

[1967mama]

To pick up on Angie55's comment about freezing berries -- YES!!

I have done this for many years and have found having a chest freezer invaluable for freezing berries. This year, we picked 56 lbs of Strawberries in an hour (large family = lots of pickers) for $1.50 a lb.

I also bought 100 lbs of already picked blueberries for $2 a lb and 60 lbs of raspberries for $2 a lb. Half of the raspberries became freezer jam.

Its a lot of work at the time, but I am always SO glad we did it when we get to January and we are eating such cheap berries! They thaw beautifully in a steaming pot of oatmeal or in a smoothie. They are even nice for eating when they are 1/2 way thawed. Many years ago, when my family was much smaller, I used to buy all organic berries, but it became cost prohibitive so now we go with regular farm berries.

A great book that I read about 20 years ago (and found my own dogeared copy at  a thrift store when I'd borrowed if from the library multiple times) is called The Tightwad Gazette by Amy Dacyczyn.  It is still available in public libraries. This booked opened my eyes to the many ways that our financial boat was leaking. Try adding a few new things each week. 

Its been really interesting hearing about your budget and how things are changing for you.  Its been a good process, trying to help you"whittle down your budget!"

*Edited to add that the berries were all bought at a farm, not a grocery store.

[Angie55]

Ah, organic... I should have assumed that's what you were eating based on all the other dietary restrictions... It may be not as much of a ripoff price-wise but there has to be more room to save in there. A quick price-check on Walmart to-go and even all organic everything on your list would be at least $1 cheaper (per item!). I think that's a pretty good basis since I usually find those prices higher than my regular grocery store.

You'll need a two pronged attack. Food waste/snacking and finding a store with better prices. What area do you live in? Maybe others could guide you to another store with lower prices.

[MaggieD]

This may sound counter-intuitive, but did you check the prices on the 1 or 2-lb bags of carrots and the 14oz can of tomatoes?  I buy carrots regularly, and sometimes 2 1-lb bags are cheaper than the 2-lb bag, and I'm guessing the same could be true compared to the 5-lb (I don't buy that size as frequently).  Looking at Amazon, for the organic Muir Glen diced tomatoes, which seem pretty fancy, the 28-oz cans are 3.22 compared to 2 14-oz cans at 1.38 each for a total of 2.74.  If you buy a decent amount of canned goods, you might want to run the numbers on Amazon Prime to get access to Amazon Pantry - they have lots of streaming content as well so I can't imagine it would be worth it without replacing Netflix.

[foobar]

Wow your prices are ridiculously high. Are you watching sales at all? Where are you shopping? Since you are a SAHM I would suggest putting more effort into matching your meals to whats on sale and creating a price book. You may have to go to more than one store and forego some things once in awhile. For instance, I would never pay 4.99 for a lb of strawberries that could get eaten in two sittings (my limit is more like 1.75 a lb).... Find what food is on sale that fits your diet and budget and buy it. Stock up and freeze berries when they are cheap in the summer to have throughout the winter. Once you start paying attention to prices you should know a price threshold for the basics. If its over the threshold don't buy it! Once you start reading the ads you'll get an idea of how often stuff goes on sale and what price. This actually shouldn't take too long since you eat healthy you can skip 75% of the pages.

Ridiculously high even for organic?

It is right in line for organic. Strawberries might go on sale for 3.99 during peak season  and if your willing to go with the farmers market that isn't certified but claims not to use chemicals, you might get down to 2.50. But most of the year your looking at 5-8 bucks in my area. And frozen strawberries are nasty:) The organic meat is even worse when you start talking about grass fed (and no grain finished doesn't count) beef and free range chickens (there is a difference between free range and organic). It is pretty easy to double  or triple your budget when you make that lifestyle choice. And unfortunately with the inflated prices, you often don't get any sales or great deals. For example: costco has organic grass fed beef for 12/lb. The nonorganic stuff is more like 4  normally (and I see 2.99 sales and I am not even looking to buy that product). It is pretty easy to see how a 600 dollar food budget becomes an 1800 dollar one.

All that being said 1800 bucks is a lot of money even buying all organic.  It is worth looking at where the money goes and try and find savings but I wouldn't sacrifice my health for a few lousy bucks.

[Sylly]

I'm not questioning your decision to go organic, but perhaps while you try to pay down your debt, you can forgo the organic for those produce that are less likely to contain pesticide residue (assuming that's what you're avoiding), i.e., Clean Fifteen, especially if the price difference is large?

I've also seen organic frozen fruit in bulk at Costco. While the prices/lb are higher than I would pay for non-organic fresh fruits, they may be lower than organic ones (I don't know), and in that case, you can substitute fresh with frozen when and where it makes sense.

[tweezers]

That sounds about right to me as well for organic.  We buy organic potatoes and root vegetables as well, along with some fruit.  Are blackberries over in your area (I'm in the Pacific Northwest and we still have blackberries)?  We pick as many as we can and freeze them.  Obviously eating them just thawed isn't a great option, but I make a lot of baked stuff with them (oatmeal bars, tarts, etc). 

We largely follow a paleo-type diet (i.e. meat, veggies, some fruit, no sugar, no wheat....we do eat rice, potatoes, oatmeal, and legumes in small quantities) as well, and only have "ingredients" in our house.  This can be a pain because it means planning well to ensure we're not scrambling at mealtime.   I second whoever suggested looking into meat/produce outside of the grocery store system.  We have a small chest freezer and get a quarter beef (organic, pastured/grass-fed cows who have a spectacular water and mountain view) twice per year, which comes out to $4/lb (and includes steaks, roasts, soup bones/ribs, and ground beef).  While in season we frequent our farmers market where a lot of stuff is organic, and buy organic produce and cheese from Costco.  We also found that Amazon has better prices on some items we use (e.g. almond flour....we don't use this much because its expensive, rice pasta).  Once we figured out our system our grocery bills dropped and shopping became much less of a chore. 

Good luck.  It can be challenging aligning dietary needs with a reasonable budget, but you'll get there.

[quelinda]

This may sound counter-intuitive, but did you check the prices on the 1 or 2-lb bags of carrots and the 14oz can of tomatoes?

I did, actually! I was very careful to make sure I got the best deal (within the confines of the store I was at).

[quelinda]

A great book that I read about 20 years ago (and found my own dogeared copy at  a thrift store when I'd borrowed if from the library multiple times) is called The Tightwad Gazette by Amy Dacyczyn.  It is still available in public libraries. This booked opened my eyes to the many ways that our financial boat was leaking. Try adding a few new things each week.

The "interesting" thing about the position we're in right now is that we USED to be seriously, seriously frugal. I was actually a subscriber of the newsletter The Tightwad Gazette, back before it was a book. We shopped at Aldi for almost all of our food, and our grocery budget was $200 a month -- for me, DH, and his three kids who were with us 1/3 of the time. We shared a car. I cut my own hair. I bought all my clothes at a thrift store. We gave my stepkids used board games and books and puzzles for Christmas. We got internet free for YEARS by using the free trial discs from AOL (until they wised up and put a limit on it). And we paid off tens of thousands of dollars in debt (from my DH's divorce, student loans and other debt from his first marriage).

So I'm not new to price books, doing without, evaluating purchases, etc. I just got off track somewhere along the way, and our priorities changed in regards to food. And I'm SO MUCH healthier now than I was then. I just need to figure out how to eat this way and still be responsible with our finances.

[Overseas Stache]

Like everyone else is saying, 1800 on groceries?!?!.  Plus does anyone really need a home phone anymore?

[The Butler]

How much does a whole chicken cost you?  Have you considered making broth from that?  What we do is buy a whole chicken, roast it, and use the meat sparingly enough to get at least two dinners out of it (two adults, two children), usually with leftovers, and then I use the carcass to make broth.

Seems kind of expensive to me for you to buy over $8 of bones just to make a water replacement.

[The Butler]

Something that hasn't really been mentioned, but for general household expenses - which we don't have much of at all: use "re-usable" wherever possible.  I haven't bought paper towels in over two years because we use wash cloths for everything.  And we have a three-year-old, 1.5-year-old, a dog, so there have been plenty of messes over the last couple of years.  Yes, it means an extra (although pretty small) load of laundry 2-3x a week, and I haven't run the numbers, but I think that still works out to a money savings.

You mentioned your younger child is still in diapers; get that kiddo potty trained!  Especially if you're using expensive pull-ups instead of plain diapers, or better yet, cloth.  Both of my boys are potty trained (yes, my 20-month-old is too).  The younger one wears a diaper for naps and night, although often it's dry, and the 3-year-old sleeps without a diaper, and if he leaks/wets, it's easy enough to wash a crib/toddler bed sheet.

Buy cloth napkins and use those instead of disposable.  (Find ways to buy them cheaply; I got some at a consignment store for a few dollars, and made some out of flannel.)

Buy some handkerchiefs (eBay!), or if you can sew, hem some flannel squares and use those as Kleenex.  They actually work much better than Kleenex; they don't dry your skin out nearly as much.

Consider closely your older car, with the car maintenance costs you listed (I'm guessing the $140 or $160 or whatever per month were for the old car); it could be that, as frugal as it feels to say you drive an old car, the car costs more to maintain than it is worth.

Ditch Netflix.  We actually even just sold our TV.  We rarely watch movies, and our children get zero screen time.  Trust me, you can do it.  Don't listen to society that says you need to watch TV shows, movies, etc.  Even if you just do it as a temporary measure until you have finances under control.

Try to start gardening - even just herbs could offset a little of your expenses, and then you can get organic produce without paying extra for it.

Purge through your house and find things you can sell - particularly more expensive things, but even the little things add up.  The book "The Joy of Less" by Francine Jay is a great resource for helping you work through your "relationship" to your stuff.

Use eBay for clothes shopping, if you don't have good second-hand stores.  LikeTwice.com is also good (for women's clothes), although not always as inexpensive as eBay.  But only buy when you REALLY need something, and not just when you find a "great deal."

[ZiziPB]

Doesn't MMM eat paleo?  His grocery spending (including entertaining multiple guests) for a family of 3 is under $7,000.  You are spending 3 times as much!  Something here doesn't add up....

By the way, my DD has similar dietary issues as yours (wheat, soy, dairy, egg, etc. allergies, thyroid problems, does not believe in eating meat ;-) and she does very well on a strict vegan diet that is quite inexpensive.  She doesn't eat any processed foods, just lots of fresh veggies, fruit, rice, buckwheat, millet, quinoa, legumes.  If you are not into substitutes (fancy gluten-free this or that), you can eat healthy and economically at the same time.

Definitely check out Costco and alternative places (ethnic markets, local suppliers) to get your food.

[ThirdTimer]

Hi, quelinda, first, I think it's awesome that you're coming back here and continuing to seek out advice that works for you even though a lot of the posters aren't exactly sugar-coating their advice.

Second, I want to expand on what an earlier poster said and urge you to change your contingency fund model until you pay off your credit card debt. Some of the things you listed, like insurance, are fixed costs that will be for the same amount and due at fixed intervals, and you should keep the money for them in your savings account so you can pay the bill when it comes due. But _until you pay off your credit card debt_ I'd recommend zeroing out all the other contingency funds for unexpected expenses and using them to pay off the debt. Right now, when you're putting $140 in your savings account for car repairs when you're running a credit card balance, it's the equivalent of borrowing $140 at 10.6% so that you can hold on to it _just in case_ you need some car repairs in the future. You'd be better off paying off the debt and then, if you have no savings when the emergency occurs, putting it on the credit card. At least then you won't be accruing interest for all the time between when you start these contingencies accounts and when the emergency occurs. It's also helpful because it makes it clear that by spending money out of those contingency funds, it's extending the amount of time that you'll remain in debt, so it will encourage you to only use that fund in true emergencies. That way, you'll be more inclined to cut back on gift spending this Christmas when you realize that you're borrowing money at 10.6% to pay for them, buy the bare minimum clothing you need to get through the next couple of seasons, and when one of the cars breaks down, you'll be more inclined to see if you can be a one-car family until you've finished paying down the credit card and can save up the money for the repair.

Of course, this only works if you actually take that "contingency fund" money and use it to pay off your credit card debt, rather than spending it on other stuff. I'd say keep treating those dollar amounts as part of those funds but just "save them" by paying them on your credit card balance every month rather than saving them in a savings account.

Also, having you considered rolling that credit card debt onto a 0%-intro rate credit card? It seems to me that you guys can easily pay down that debt in six months to a year without too much trouble, and it might help you to see this as a short-term project that requires extra belt-tightening for a relatively short period of time. Surely you guys can go one year where you spend less on "extras," buy less clothing, don't exchange presents with one another, and I'm sure the kids will understand that for one year the presents are going to be less generous than usual because you guys are trying to get rid of your debt (IMO setting that example for the kids is a far greater gift to them than any amount of cash).

If you've lived frugally in the past, it's likely you know how to do this stuff, you just need to decide what your priorities are. There's no law (even in MMM-land) that says you can't spend $1800 a month on groceries if it's something you and your family deeply value. For instance, if you'd rather take on paid employment, a 20-hour a week job at $20-$25/hr (or a full-time job at $10-$12 an hour) would cover your grocery bill. Or your husband could decide it's important enough to him that he's willing to postpone retirement for another 10 years or so. You guys have a lot of options, you just have to decide what really matters to you.

[quelinda]

Like everyone else is saying, 1800 on groceries?!?!.

I'm sure this won't make anyone here feel any better, but I *did* say approximately (since I haven't been tracking exactly), and that amount includes supplements, cat food/litter, diapers, health & beauty supplies (toothbrushes, etc.) and cleaning supplies (dish & laundry detergent, baking soda & vinegar & hydrogen peroxide for cleaning).

But I know there's a lot of room for improvement.

[quelinda]

How much does a whole chicken cost you?  Have you considered making broth from that?  What we do is buy a whole chicken, roast it, and use the meat sparingly enough to get at least two dinners out of it (two adults, two children), usually with leftovers, and then I use the carcass to make broth.

Seems kind of expensive to me for you to buy over $8 of bones just to make a water replacement.

I do use whole chickens for the meat and then to make broth from the bones. And it's not a "water replacement" -- it's a rich source of nutrients.

[GardenFun]

Do you have a Woodman's grocery store by you?  They have a decent-sized produce organic section.  Not sure how their prices compare, but their non-organic fruits and veggies are noticeably cheaper than other stores.  Maybe the lower price model carries over into organic. 

[Lkxe]

Do you have a Woodman's grocery store by you?  They have a decent-sized produce organic section.  Not sure how their prices compare, but their non-organic fruits and veggies are noticeably cheaper than other stores.  Maybe the lower price model carries over into organic.

 I was going to ask the same. My parents live south of the border and they love theirs for some things.

[The Butler]

I do use whole chickens for the meat and then to make broth from the bones. And it's not a "water replacement" -- it's a rich source of nutrients.

I'm not saying it doesn't have nutrients, but at some point (if you're serious about cutting back costs) you need to do a cost-benefit analysis of whether the nutrients you get from it are worth the money you spend.

Depending on what your money-saving goals are (do you want to work towards saving 50% of your income? or 10%?), you may not be able to afford certain foods (or new clothes, etc.).  It seems weird to say that - among your peers with similar incomes, there is likely very little that people feel they can't afford - but if you honestly want to cut your spending back, you need to admit that there are certain luxuries, food or otherwise, that you simply CAN'T afford.

[quelinda]

Do you have a Woodman's grocery store by you?  They have a decent-sized produce organic section.  Not sure how their prices compare, but their non-organic fruits and veggies are noticeably cheaper than other stores.  Maybe the lower price model carries over into organic.

We do have a Woodman's but it's about 20 to 30 minutes away in a direction I never go. I have heard good things about it though. Wonder if it would be worth the gas I'd be using?

[foobar]

Doesn't MMM eat paleo?  His grocery spending (including entertaining multiple guests) for a family of 3 is under $7,000.  You are spending 3 times as much!  Something here doesn't add up....

MMM isn't buying organic, grass fed beef that cost 3-4x as much as the normal stuff. He is buying the cheap beef with the toxic chemicals. He just doesn't care about his family:) Or he feels the risk feeding his kid hormone tainted meat is minimal and not worth 5k/yr. :) Seriously price out what GMO free, grass fed, organic type goes for compared to normal stuff. Some is about the same price but a good chunk of it is 200-400% more for the "same" product. You have to decide if that price premium is worth it.

[Emilyngh]

Doesn't MMM eat paleo?  His grocery spending (including entertaining multiple guests) for a family of 3 is under $7,000.  You are spending 3 times as much!  Something here doesn't add up....

MMM isn't buying organic, grass fed beef that cost 3-4x as much as the normal stuff. He is buying the cheap beef with the toxic chemicals. He just doesn't care about his family:) Or he feels the risk feeding his kid hormone tainted meat is minimal and not worth 5k/yr. :) Seriously price out what GMO free, grass fed, organic type goes for compared to normal stuff. Some is about the same price but a good chunk of it is 200-400% more for the "same" product. You have to decide if that price premium is worth it.

The other thing is that we don't know how much meat he's eating (seems to me he is always talking about having just eaten a big bowl of nuts).   Even eating the same product, eating half as much of it (eg., not eating meat at every meal or even every day, using smaller amounts with more veggies, etc) will have a 50% savings, which is pretty huge.   

[DecD]

Like everyone else is saying, 1800 on groceries?!?!.

I'm sure this won't make anyone here feel any better, but I *did* say approximately (since I haven't been tracking exactly), and that amount includes supplements, cat food/litter, diapers, health & beauty supplies (toothbrushes, etc.) and cleaning supplies (dish & laundry detergent, baking soda & vinegar & hydrogen peroxide for cleaning).

But I know there's a lot of room for improvement.

Our family of four is NOT frugal about grocery shopping.  It's one thing that we're working on, and not very successfully so far to be honest.  We spend ~ $650-750/month at the grocery store, including paper products, health/beauty, cleaning supplies, dog food for the large dog, etc.  You guys triple our bill.  It's not just a little spendy.  It's ... really spendy. 

I think cutting it in half is a good start - and to do that, you'll need to make choices.  Choose the less expensive suppers.  Choose to buy frozen berries instead of $6 fresh ones--frozen raspberries rock.  Choose to shop at the mainstream store instead of the Whole Foods or the expensive specialty organic market.  (Our Kroger has had organic grapes for $2 per pound lately, and they're fantastic ones.  Their organic carrots aren't much more than their conventional ones.  They have a couple of aisles of organic products as well.)    Is it the same fun atmosphere?  No, definitely not.  But you need to buy your family financial security as well as healthy, delicious food.  And if that means shopping at Kroger and Costco instead of Whole Foods and your organic coop, then that's what it means.  Like the above poster said, there are simply things that you can't afford, and $1800/month on food is one of them.

I'll join the folks recommending buying a quarter cow for your meat- it'll taste better and be less expensive. 

Have you read Michael Pollan's books?  His ideas on food might resonate with you.  A great starting place is his NY Times article from a few years ago: http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/unhappy-meals/

[Cassie]

I have lived most of my life in Wi. One of the cheaper grocery stores is Piggly Wiggly. Also my hubby worked in a very bad neighborhood in Milwaukee similar to what you describe so no he could not walk.  However, the kids & I walked everywhere.  On most days I walked 3-4 miles/day even in winter.  If it got to -20 we would only walk short distances like to school, etc and even at that temperature the distances you mentioned are doable.  I would just forgo my daily 3-4 mile walk for exercise and just do what is necessary.  It sounds like you were frugal in the past & can be again.  Also the amounts ;you give your adult kids is certainly reasonable for gifts.   The real problem is groceries & also it does not sound like you need 2 cars.  We were a one car family for years.  Yes property taxes are high which is why the schools & social services are great.   Good luck in your journey!

[whiskeyjack]

When you find your 1/4 or 1/2 grass fed cow, first make sure to request the organ meats and bones when you place your order so they don't throw them away.  (I also ask for the kidney fat).   When you go to pick it up, make friends with the butcher and they will frequently toss in free ox-tails, organ meats or bones from other cows that were left behind/unwanted.   If you know anyone else ordering a cow share, ask if they want their bones and if not - take them!

[quelinda]

Thanks again! I really so appreciate everyone chiming in.

I've asked around regarding a cow share, and I will definitely look in to a cheaper source of bones and organ meats.

Today I'm making pumpkin chili -- canned pumpkin, ground beef, fire-roasted tomatoes, broth, and various spices. The kids may have gluten-free noodles with it, and I'll also serve a vegetable side.

I have been thinking very carefully about all of this and DH is on board. I often feel like I'm shouldering the financial stuff by myself, because he doesn't enjoy doing it and he trusts me -- but then when things go south I feel like it's all my fault. I want him more accountable, and he agrees that it should be that way. So I'm started a document on our desktop with the grocery spending itemized like I had it here so he can see where the money is going.

[Debt Free in Alabama]

If I may offer one more suggestion about your last post, ie, you and the spouse being on the same page/working together.....
Let me encourage you to read Dave Ramsey's "The Total Money Makeover."  It's a fun, challenging book, designed to help couples (and singles with an accountability partner) work together to win with money.
It's NOT your job to "do the finances," nor is it your husband's job. Deciding together to win is so powerful for a couple.  Deciding to decide on what to spend money on is so powerful, creates intimacy, and actually removes guilt in our lives, as by creating boundaries for ourself/our family, we can spend guilt-free up to the boundaries.
If $1800 a month is too much for food to allow your family to win, work hard on it, just as you're doing, and apply the savings to killing debt, then building wealth through 401k savings, Roth IRA, etc when debt free.
Perhaps you could say to your husband, "Honey, there is something important that I'd like to talk about in the next day or two.  When could we sit down for 30 minutes and discuss it?"  If there is no TV on, no phones, computers, children, or distractions, you have a real chance at having a great conversation to share your feelings on how important it is for BOTH of you to work together on a monthly cash flow plan so your family can win with money.

You can do this, together.

[Gin1984]

I still have not gotten this answered:Did you just pay $5.49/lb for BONES?  Not meat, but bones?

[quelinda]

I still have not gotten this answered:Did you just pay $5.49/lb for BONES?  Not meat, but bones?

Yes.

[klystomane]

I still have not gotten this answered:Did you just pay $5.49/lb for BONES?  Not meat, but bones?

Yes.

Better put a helmet on and prepare yourself for the ensuing onslaught of punches.

[Fuggled]

I registered for an account just so I can dogpile on the food budget comments...here are some serious suggestions.

1. Pay attention to the Dirty Dozen/Clean Fifteen list.  Potatoes are on the Dirt Dozen list but sweet potatoes are on the Clean Fifteen.  So quit buying expensive organic potatoes and start buying cheap conventional sweet potatoes.  Pineapple (which you say your son can eat) is also on the Clean Fifteen, so don't bother getting organic.  Cantaloupe is another one on the Clean Fifteen list that may be ok for fructose malabsorption.  Some veggie staples (like cabbage and peas) are also on the Clean Fifteen, and they're generally super cheap anyway. 

2. Look into Azure Standard.  They have frozen organic strawberries for ~$4/lb, which is 20% less than what you paid.  They have conventional berries for half that with a link to the farm that provides them, so you can do your own research and decided if the price difference is worth it.  They also have 28 oz cans of organic tomatoes for less than $2.00 if you buy a case of 12.  They aren't fire roasted or kissed by angels, but I'm sure they're fine.

3. I bet you've already done this, but have you looked at alternative grains like quinoa or oats or some others that might fit with your diet?  That could be a way to get some cheaper calories into your diet.  You can get gluten free grains in bulk from Azure Standard as well.

Good luck.

[tweezers]

I still have not gotten this answered:Did you just pay $5.49/lb for BONES?  Not meat, but bones?

Yes.

Better put a helmet on and prepare yourself for the ensuing onslaught of punches.

I have to chime in here.  There is some meat on soup bones, but not the sort of meat you'd carve and serve.  Organic meat is expensive.  Had she bought boneless, organic meat, she would have paid 2-3 times that amount so buying soup bones and making a meat-based soup or stew is a more economical route.  The OP has explained she needs to eat organically to accommodate her family's health issues, and she's looking into the suggestions to reduce her food costs while meeting their dietary restrictions. 

[Emilyngh]

 The OP has explained she needs to eat organically to accommodate her family's health issues, and she's looking into the suggestions to reduce her food costs while meeting their dietary restrictions.

I don't recall her explaining that she needs to eat organically for health issues; what kind of health issues require eating organic food only?   IIRC she has foods that her family cannot eat b/c of health reasons, but this has nothing to do with eating organically.

I assume she prefers organic for environmental reasons, animal rights reasons possibly coupled with concerns about ingesting pesticides.   While I do not believe that there have yet been any definite evidence of risks of not eating organically, I understand the motivation.   Like all things in life, IMO one really has to use the best evidence at our disposal to weigh chance of risk, level of risk, vs costs of avoiding risk.   

Ie., is the risk of eating broth made from non-organically raised beef (or just eating broth from vegetable scraps instead....) outweighed by the risk of not being able to retire for 25 years.

[Fuggled]

I have to chime in here.  There is some meat on soup bones, but not the sort of meat you'd carve and serve.  Organic meat is expensive.  Had she bought boneless, organic meat, she would have paid 2-3 times that amount so buying soup bones and making a meat-based soup or stew is a more economical route.  The OP has explained she needs to eat organically to accommodate her family's health issues, and she's looking into the suggestions to reduce her food costs while meeting their dietary restrictions.

I get the value of bones...but where I am (Texas) I can get grass-fed bone-in roast from a local farmer for $6.50/lb.  That would give me several pot roast meals for my family of 3 and leave me bones for making stock afterwards.  That same local farmer sells stock bones for $1.25/lb.  And before anyone chimes in, this is from a farmer who follows organic practices but isn't certified.  You can check my sources: http://www.truthhillfarm.com/home.

[Habilis]

Since some of the OPs food choices are driven by celiac and other intolerances, I want to point out that these are often caused by gut disbioses and infections. Eating Paleo or other elimination diets may reduce symptoms, which is GREAT if you've suffered for a long time. However, it may be possible to heal the gut and expand the foods that can be eaten. I would recommend looking into a functional medicine practitioner who can identify any infections and specific conditions such as SIBO. I would also recommend checking out the SCD and GAPS therapeutic approaches.

[coffeelover]

I see everyone else has chimed in but I have to as well.

We are a family of 7, with 2 of the teenagers only being here part time.
Ages- 36, 36, 17, 14, 12, 2 and 1.

Everybody packs a lunch for school. Myself and the 2 youngest eat almost every meal at home. Husband either packs a meal or eats at home.

Our budget for the entire month is 1400 for food. that includes diapers, wipes, dog food, kitty litter, cleaning supplies etc.

Plus we have dietary restrictions here as well. One of my girls has celiacs so GF it is.
I buy lots of fruit, veggies and make stirfrys. I cook almost every meal.

No food gets wasted in this house, if a human won't eat it I usually mix it in with the dog food. This happens rarely though.
(please don't punch me, this is just what I've always done, I do make sure it's good enough for my old dog. I just have picky kids and hubby who won't eat food more then 3 days from when I cooked it.)

So yeah your budget for food for 4 people is astronomical. Outrageous, unheard of, like how in the world do you spend that much, seriously, how?

I shop at Kroger, Target, Big lots and Aldi's. I stock up when I see a great sale. We always have a ton of food on hand and I'm always baking too. Poor hubby has gained 40 pounds in a year and a half because I cook such good food. :)