Author Topic: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege  (Read 29694 times)

marblejane

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What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« on: September 11, 2014, 05:55:17 PM »
I hesitated on posting this, given some of the heated discussions in other threads on this forum, but I thought that this was a really cool (and mustachian) way to explain white privilege.

http://qz.com/257474/what-riding-my-bike-has-taught-me-about-white-privilege/

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 06:48:11 PM »
I hesitated on posting this, given some of the heated discussions in other threads on this forum, but I thought that this was a really cool (and mustachian) way to explain white privilege.

http://qz.com/257474/what-riding-my-bike-has-taught-me-about-white-privilege/

Yes life is not fair (equal for all)

Not sure how this is Mustachian

Btw I am not white

Alabaster

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 06:50:31 PM »
Interesting, I've had a very different experience riding a bike everywhere. Of course, I live in Boise, Id which is a pretty bike friendly place to live. Most drivers do actually go around me, and when they don't, they almost always try to squish as close to the inside of the road as they dare. I, in turn, try to make sure to stay as far to the outside as I can and take sidewalks when its appropriate. I actually feel quite privileged with my bike. For the most part, cars are very conscientious of me. I try to return the favor.

Quote
So when I say the semi driver is privileged, it isn’t a way of calling him a bad person or a man-slaughterer or saying he didn’t really earn his truck, but just way of acknowledging all that–infrastructure, laws, government, culture–and the fact that if he and I get in a collision, I will probably die and he will just have to clean the blood off of his bumper. In the same way, talking about racial privilege isn’t a way of telling white people they are bad people or racists or that they didn’t really earn what they have.

I thought the article was pretty solid overall. It seems the author has a good grasp of the different stakeholder views. As a privileged, white, male I'm ok with admitting my privilege right up until the point I think they are trying to tell me I'm something that simply isn't true. Just as the author wouldn't expect the simi diver to apologize for earning their truck, I'm not going to apologize for where I ended up. I made good choices and those have put me in a very comfortable life. If someone wants to say "hey, you got somewhere! Good for you, but be aware that you had advantages that other people simply don't" I'm not going to contest that. I will, however, get rather nasty rather quickly if someone tries to tell me that I have only been successful because I am privileged, white and male.

MayDay

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2014, 06:51:17 PM »
I liked that a lot. 

I have a husband who gets very bent out of shape about this topic. 

And when we lived in Mpls, I got yelled at some when on my bike on the street, and H almost got hit bad by a stupid driver while bike-commuting, so anecdote!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 06:53:02 PM by MayDay »

Gin1984

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2014, 06:57:03 PM »
Interesting, I've had a very different experience riding a bike everywhere. Of course, I live in Boise, Id which is a pretty bike friendly place to live. Most drivers do actually go around me, and when they don't, they almost always try to squish as close to the inside of the road as they dare. I, in turn, try to make sure to stay as far to the outside as I can and take sidewalks when its appropriate. I actually feel quite privileged with my bike. For the most part, cars are very conscientious of me. I try to return the favor.

Quote
So when I say the semi driver is privileged, it isn’t a way of calling him a bad person or a man-slaughterer or saying he didn’t really earn his truck, but just way of acknowledging all that–infrastructure, laws, government, culture–and the fact that if he and I get in a collision, I will probably die and he will just have to clean the blood off of his bumper. In the same way, talking about racial privilege isn’t a way of telling white people they are bad people or racists or that they didn’t really earn what they have.

I thought the article was pretty solid overall. It seems the author has a good grasp of the different stakeholder views. As a privileged, white, male I'm ok with admitting my privilege right up until the point I think they are trying to tell me I'm something that simply isn't true. Just as the author wouldn't expect the simi diver to apologize for earning their truck, I'm not going to apologize for where I ended up. I made good choices and those have put me in a very comfortable life. If someone wants to say "hey, you got somewhere! Good for you, but be aware that you had advantages that other people simply don't" I'm not going to contest that. I will, however, get rather nasty rather quickly if someone tries to tell me that I have only been successful because I am privileged, white and male.
How do you know that is not true?  That at the same level of effort that you put in, that as a minority female, you may not have been successful?

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2014, 07:02:42 PM »
Interesting, I've had a very different experience riding a bike everywhere. Of course, I live in Boise, Id which is a pretty bike friendly place to live. Most drivers do actually go around me, and when they don't, they almost always try to squish as close to the inside of the road as they dare. I, in turn, try to make sure to stay as far to the outside as I can and take sidewalks when its appropriate. I actually feel quite privileged with my bike. For the most part, cars are very conscientious of me. I try to return the favor.

Quote
So when I say the semi driver is privileged, it isn’t a way of calling him a bad person or a man-slaughterer or saying he didn’t really earn his truck, but just way of acknowledging all that–infrastructure, laws, government, culture–and the fact that if he and I get in a collision, I will probably die and he will just have to clean the blood off of his bumper. In the same way, talking about racial privilege isn’t a way of telling white people they are bad people or racists or that they didn’t really earn what they have.

I thought the article was pretty solid overall. It seems the author has a good grasp of the different stakeholder views. As a privileged, white, male I'm ok with admitting my privilege right up until the point I think they are trying to tell me I'm something that simply isn't true. Just as the author wouldn't expect the simi diver to apologize for earning their truck, I'm not going to apologize for where I ended up. I made good choices and those have put me in a very comfortable life. If someone wants to say "hey, you got somewhere! Good for you, but be aware that you had advantages that other people simply don't" I'm not going to contest that. I will, however, get rather nasty rather quickly if someone tries to tell me that I have only been successful because I am privileged, white and male.
How do you know that is not true?  That at the same level of effort that you put in, that as a minority female, you may not have been successful?

It is impossible to prove a counter factual

People who bring up such impossible hypotheticals typically do so as a last ditch 'straw man' argument

I wish I were 7'2" with great hand-eye so I could be a #1 NBA draft pick, irrespective of my actual accomplishments or amount of effort or practice I had put in - success (fat contract) would be guaranteed even if I don't play a single minute

Alabaster

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 07:17:54 PM »
Interesting, I've had a very different experience riding a bike everywhere. Of course, I live in Boise, Id which is a pretty bike friendly place to live. Most drivers do actually go around me, and when they don't, they almost always try to squish as close to the inside of the road as they dare. I, in turn, try to make sure to stay as far to the outside as I can and take sidewalks when its appropriate. I actually feel quite privileged with my bike. For the most part, cars are very conscientious of me. I try to return the favor.

Quote
So when I say the semi driver is privileged, it isn’t a way of calling him a bad person or a man-slaughterer or saying he didn’t really earn his truck, but just way of acknowledging all that–infrastructure, laws, government, culture–and the fact that if he and I get in a collision, I will probably die and he will just have to clean the blood off of his bumper. In the same way, talking about racial privilege isn’t a way of telling white people they are bad people or racists or that they didn’t really earn what they have.

I thought the article was pretty solid overall. It seems the author has a good grasp of the different stakeholder views. As a privileged, white, male I'm ok with admitting my privilege right up until the point I think they are trying to tell me I'm something that simply isn't true. Just as the author wouldn't expect the simi diver to apologize for earning their truck, I'm not going to apologize for where I ended up. I made good choices and those have put me in a very comfortable life. If someone wants to say "hey, you got somewhere! Good for you, but be aware that you had advantages that other people simply don't" I'm not going to contest that. I will, however, get rather nasty rather quickly if someone tries to tell me that I have only been successful because I am privileged, white and male.
How do you know that is not true?  That at the same level of effort that you put in, that as a minority female, you may not have been successful?

I know that being from a reasonably well off family, being white, and being a male do not guarantee my success because if I hadn't capitalized on the opportunities I did, I wouldn't be where I am. If I had chosen to piss them away, I would not be living the comfortable life I now am.

I need no more proof of this than my mother's family. She married my father and they both built careers as teachers. One of her sisters jumped from entry level job to entry level job for her entire life. Not surprisingly, her life hasn't worked out as smoothly. My mother's other sister went on to become an accountant and makes almost what both my parents make combined. Unfortunately for her, her husband is a huge spender and they have an enormous amount of debt that prevents them from enjoying that large income.

I do not make the claim that everyone can achieve what I did with an equal amount of effort. I like to think that they could - and will do what I can to give them that opportunity - but I can't really know that they enjoy the same privilege since the system has, at the very least, historically been skewed in my favor. And that probably has lingering affects. What I do claim is that choices make the person. If you don't take advantage of your opportunities, it is unlikely that you will be successful. Therefore, I don't expect anyone who is successful to apologize for the fact that they took at least some measure of responsibility for their life.

Gin1984

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 07:47:24 PM »
Interesting, I've had a very different experience riding a bike everywhere. Of course, I live in Boise, Id which is a pretty bike friendly place to live. Most drivers do actually go around me, and when they don't, they almost always try to squish as close to the inside of the road as they dare. I, in turn, try to make sure to stay as far to the outside as I can and take sidewalks when its appropriate. I actually feel quite privileged with my bike. For the most part, cars are very conscientious of me. I try to return the favor.

Quote
So when I say the semi driver is privileged, it isn’t a way of calling him a bad person or a man-slaughterer or saying he didn’t really earn his truck, but just way of acknowledging all that–infrastructure, laws, government, culture–and the fact that if he and I get in a collision, I will probably die and he will just have to clean the blood off of his bumper. In the same way, talking about racial privilege isn’t a way of telling white people they are bad people or racists or that they didn’t really earn what they have.

I thought the article was pretty solid overall. It seems the author has a good grasp of the different stakeholder views. As a privileged, white, male I'm ok with admitting my privilege right up until the point I think they are trying to tell me I'm something that simply isn't true. Just as the author wouldn't expect the simi diver to apologize for earning their truck, I'm not going to apologize for where I ended up. I made good choices and those have put me in a very comfortable life. If someone wants to say "hey, you got somewhere! Good for you, but be aware that you had advantages that other people simply don't" I'm not going to contest that. I will, however, get rather nasty rather quickly if someone tries to tell me that I have only been successful because I am privileged, white and male.
How do you know that is not true?  That at the same level of effort that you put in, that as a minority female, you may not have been successful?

I know that being from a reasonably well off family, being white, and being a male do not guarantee my success because if I hadn't capitalized on the opportunities I did, I wouldn't be where I am. If I had chosen to piss them away, I would not be living the comfortable life I now am.

I need no more proof of this than my mother's family. She married my father and they both built careers as teachers. One of her sisters jumped from entry level job to entry level job for her entire life. Not surprisingly, her life hasn't worked out as smoothly. My mother's other sister went on to become an accountant and makes almost what both my parents make combined. Unfortunately for her, her husband is a huge spender and they have an enormous amount of debt that prevents them from enjoying that large income.

I do not make the claim that everyone can achieve what I did with an equal amount of effort. I like to think that they could - and will do what I can to give them that opportunity - but I can't really know that they enjoy the same privilege since the system has, at the very least, historically been skewed in my favor. And that probably has lingering affects. What I do claim is that choices make the person. If you don't take advantage of your opportunities, it is unlikely that you will be successful. Therefore, I don't expect anyone who is successful to apologize for the fact that they took at least some measure of responsibility for their life.
But that was not my question.  If your oppertunities did not exists, could you, as you are, have been successful (by the same measure of success)?  For example, if your first employer saw your name and where you went to school (often correlated to income/race), and decided you were worth less or that you did not have what it takes?  There have been multiple studies that name/gender/race affect if the employer thinks you can do the job or what quality you will bring, even if the actual data (resume and such) is exactly the same. 
I am not saying you did not work for your success, but that your privilege may have been a deciding factor in that success.  Most people posting on here come from a place of great privilege, first world country, educated, etc.  I know I would not be where I am without the privileges I was given.  Yes, I could have pissed away those privileges, but that was not the point.  The point was, can you be certain that what privileges you had were not the deciding factor in your success?
ETA:  From someone who has been involved in the field, in regards to research your comment "I do not make the claim that everyone can achieve what I did with an equal amount of effort. I like to think that they could - and will do what I can to give them that opportunity - but I can't really know that they enjoy the same privilege since the system has, at the very least, historically been skewed in my favor." seriously cracked me up.  Most people with privilege believe that they are not discriminating and that they will give others not like them the opportunity, but most often those people do discriminate without even being aware of it.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 07:50:15 PM by Gin1984 »

vern

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 08:39:07 PM »
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 12:33:59 AM by vern »

Alabaster

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 08:41:39 PM »
Interesting, I've had a very different experience riding a bike everywhere. Of course, I live in Boise, Id which is a pretty bike friendly place to live. Most drivers do actually go around me, and when they don't, they almost always try to squish as close to the inside of the road as they dare. I, in turn, try to make sure to stay as far to the outside as I can and take sidewalks when its appropriate. I actually feel quite privileged with my bike. For the most part, cars are very conscientious of me. I try to return the favor.

Quote
So when I say the semi driver is privileged, it isn’t a way of calling him a bad person or a man-slaughterer or saying he didn’t really earn his truck, but just way of acknowledging all that–infrastructure, laws, government, culture–and the fact that if he and I get in a collision, I will probably die and he will just have to clean the blood off of his bumper. In the same way, talking about racial privilege isn’t a way of telling white people they are bad people or racists or that they didn’t really earn what they have.

I thought the article was pretty solid overall. It seems the author has a good grasp of the different stakeholder views. As a privileged, white, male I'm ok with admitting my privilege right up until the point I think they are trying to tell me I'm something that simply isn't true. Just as the author wouldn't expect the simi diver to apologize for earning their truck, I'm not going to apologize for where I ended up. I made good choices and those have put me in a very comfortable life. If someone wants to say "hey, you got somewhere! Good for you, but be aware that you had advantages that other people simply don't" I'm not going to contest that. I will, however, get rather nasty rather quickly if someone tries to tell me that I have only been successful because I am privileged, white and male.
How do you know that is not true?  That at the same level of effort that you put in, that as a minority female, you may not have been successful?

I know that being from a reasonably well off family, being white, and being a male do not guarantee my success because if I hadn't capitalized on the opportunities I did, I wouldn't be where I am. If I had chosen to piss them away, I would not be living the comfortable life I now am.

I need no more proof of this than my mother's family. She married my father and they both built careers as teachers. One of her sisters jumped from entry level job to entry level job for her entire life. Not surprisingly, her life hasn't worked out as smoothly. My mother's other sister went on to become an accountant and makes almost what both my parents make combined. Unfortunately for her, her husband is a huge spender and they have an enormous amount of debt that prevents them from enjoying that large income.

I do not make the claim that everyone can achieve what I did with an equal amount of effort. I like to think that they could - and will do what I can to give them that opportunity - but I can't really know that they enjoy the same privilege since the system has, at the very least, historically been skewed in my favor. And that probably has lingering affects. What I do claim is that choices make the person. If you don't take advantage of your opportunities, it is unlikely that you will be successful. Therefore, I don't expect anyone who is successful to apologize for the fact that they took at least some measure of responsibility for their life.
But that was not my question.  If your opportunities did not exists, could you, as you are, have been successful (by the same measure of success)?  For example, if your first employer saw your name and where you went to school (often correlated to income/race), and decided you were worth less or that you did not have what it takes?  There have been multiple studies that name/gender/race affect if the employer thinks you can do the job or what quality you will bring, even if the actual data (resume and such) is exactly the same. 
I am not saying you did not work for your success, but that your privilege may have been a deciding factor in that success.  Most people posting on here come from a place of great privilege, first world country, educated, etc.  I know I would not be where I am without the privileges I was given.  Yes, I could have pissed away those privileges, but that was not the point.  The point was, can you be certain that what privileges you had were not the deciding factor in your success?
ETA:  From someone who has been involved in the field, in regards to research your comment "I do not make the claim that everyone can achieve what I did with an equal amount of effort. I like to think that they could - and will do what I can to give them that opportunity - but I can't really know that they enjoy the same privilege since the system has, at the very least, historically been skewed in my favor." seriously cracked me up.  Most people with privilege believe that they are not discriminating and that they will give others not like them the opportunity, but most often those people do discriminate without even being aware of it.

Quite right, I started my reply to you by restating what I had claimed (that I wasn't successful because I am white, male, and privileged but because of the choices I made) . I thought it might be useful since you highlighted my claim in replying to me. You then asked a slightly different question (can I be certain that being white, male, and privileged didn't play a deciding role in my success). I re-asserted my claim in the first paragraph, illustrated what I meant in the second paragraph, and then addressed your question in the third paragraph. I wanted to be perfectly flat in my response and in your second reply, you quoted the my answer to your question - I can't be sure.

I claim that choices make the person. Two people starting in different places can both end up deadbeats if they don't take advantage of the opportunities that they have. Similarly, they could both end up successful (like you pointed out - defining success if a different issue completely) or any combination there of. I'm not saying that their paths are equally difficult. I'm just saying that the strongest predictor of where you end up is the choices you make.

I'm not sure why my candid answer made you laugh. If you're implying that while I claim to want to empower people to take control of their own lives, I actually undermine them, then I'd be disappointed. I honestly don't think that I do. I respect people who take life by the balls and achieve in spite of any obstacles they may face. At the same time, you point out that "Most people with privilege ... do discriminate without even being aware of it" so I very well may be in that group. Who can say? Not I - since you're claiming that its unconscious on my part. Certainly not you! You have no idea who I am. What we both know is that you have someone saying "I try to give everyone the same opportunities" and you seem to be saying "No, you might think that you do, but I'm convinced that you are actually very discriminatory since many people in your position are". That strikes me as a bit of a fallacy. A is a subset of B. Most of B is C. Therefore A is C.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 08:48:03 PM by Alabaster »

TheDude

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2014, 09:57:13 PM »
I loved that article. I do think privilege is an extremely hard subject to understand and I like how the analogy.

Allen

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2014, 01:55:00 PM »
I got really defensive when my wife tried to talk to me about 'male privilege' but I get it now.  As a non-white, white privilege which I learned about later was a lot easier to grok.

I think it's a good article.

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2014, 05:05:58 AM »
Anyone born in the United States or Europe/Australia is "nation" privileged.  The opportunities we enjoy regardless of color/gender are hard for people from many countries to even imagine.

And yet we still spend our time whining about how tough life is and envying those with more than us.

Crybabies.

mm1970

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2014, 12:31:44 PM »
Anyone born in the United States or Europe/Australia is "nation" privileged.  The opportunities we enjoy regardless of color/gender are hard for people from many countries to even imagine.

And yet we still spend our time whining about how tough life is and envying those with more than us.

Crybabies.
I'm not sure what you are suggesting, but in interest of fairness:

Are you saying that a person of color who is discriminated against (and is fighting it) is a crybaby?  Because at least you live in America where you have clean water to drink, so suck it up?

austin

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2014, 01:26:09 PM »
Good article, thanks for posting. Here is another good article that compares cycling in America to male privilege.


As you can see from some of the comments in this thread, discussions of privilege can be difficult for some people. If someone is in the privileged group being discussed, a common reaction is defensiveness. I think most of the time they don't understand what is meant by privilege. I hope they have an open mind and are willing to learn. Sometimes that is not the case, they recognize their privilege, but they are going to fight tooth and nail to retain it and against any leveling of the playing field.

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2014, 07:33:39 PM »
Anyone born in the United States or Europe/Australia is "nation" privileged.  The opportunities we enjoy regardless of color/gender are hard for people from many countries to even imagine.

And yet we still spend our time whining about how tough life is and envying those with more than us.

Crybabies.
I'm not sure what you are suggesting, but in interest of fairness:

Are you saying that a person of color who is discriminated against (and is fighting it) is a crybaby?  Because at least you live in America where you have clean water to drink, so suck it up?
I'm saying that judging people by the color of their skin is bullshit whether you are discriminating against a black person or telling a white dude to "check his privilege" when you have no idea what their life has been like. 

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2014, 09:39:11 PM »
Anyone born in the United States or Europe/Australia is "nation" privileged.  The opportunities we enjoy regardless of color/gender are hard for people from many countries to even imagine.

And yet we still spend our time whining about how tough life is and envying those with more than us.

Crybabies.
I'm not sure what you are suggesting, but in interest of fairness:

Are you saying that a person of color who is discriminated against (and is fighting it) is a crybaby?  Because at least you live in America where you have clean water to drink, so suck it up?
I'm saying that judging people by the color of their skin is bullshit whether you are discriminating against a black person or telling a white dude to "check his privilege" when you have no idea what their life has been like.

Hoo boy, here we go again.

Telling someone to check their privilege is rude. But groking privilege, understanding it and recognizing it for what it is, will expand a person's ability to empathize like no other epiphany I know. The deck is stacked against us all in this world, but the house is a lot more willing to play fair with some than others.

davisgang90

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2014, 04:36:07 AM »
The problem with using a made up word from an old Heinlein novel is getting the spelling right. It's grokking with 2 ks. 

Life isn't fair, continually whining about it won't make it fair.  Legislating fairness hasn't worked well either.  I've got it that some have more opportunity than others, but regardless of the circumstances, you have to make the best life you can.

If we continually barrage the people that don't enjoy the "privilege" with how unfair their life is, it doesn't help them to succeed.  It gives some people excuses for their failure to achieve in life. Plenty of people of all colors have overcome adversity, be it racism or being born poor to achieve great success.

Whining doesn't help. 

Gin1984

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2014, 05:33:26 AM »
The problem with using a made up word from an old Heinlein novel is getting the spelling right. It's grokking with 2 ks. 

Life isn't fair, continually whining about it won't make it fair.  Legislating fairness hasn't worked well either.  I've got it that some have more opportunity than others, but regardless of the circumstances, you have to make the best life you can.

If we continually barrage the people that don't enjoy the "privilege" with how unfair their life is, it doesn't help them to succeed.  It gives some people excuses for their failure to achieve in life. Plenty of people of all colors have overcome adversity, be it racism or being born poor to achieve great success.

Whining doesn't help.
But those in privileged positions rethinking their privilege and using the privilege to pull those with less privilege up, has worked.  Also, being aware of discrimination and how it comes out and strategies to compensate do work.  Just saying well, you are better than those in a third world country so, it does not matter that you are treated badly here, makes no sense to me. 

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2014, 08:34:35 AM »
I acknowledge that my circumstances have benefitted me by providing opportunity for success.  I disagree that opportunity equates to betterment however.  It's not the responsibility of those with privilege to pull up those without, the responsibility lies in providing opportunity more fairly to those without.

Constance Noring

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2014, 08:52:38 AM »
The problem with using a made up word from an old Heinlein novel is getting the spelling right. It's grokking with 2 ks. 

Life isn't fair, continually whining about it won't make it fair.  Legislating fairness hasn't worked well either.  I've got it that some have more opportunity than others, but regardless of the circumstances, you have to make the best life you can.

If we continually barrage the people that don't enjoy the "privilege" with how unfair their life is, it doesn't help them to succeed.  It gives some people excuses for their failure to achieve in life. Plenty of people of all colors have overcome adversity, be it racism or being born poor to achieve great success.

Whining doesn't help.

Nor does complaining about people who have the temerity to point out that not every one's lived experience is the same.

It sounds very high-minded to make the argument "Talking about racism and privilege is just giving people an excuse not to improve their lot." At best, that line of reasoning is really just a very nobly dressed way to stick one's fingers in one's ears and demand not to be told things that are uncomfortable to hear. At worst, it's open racism all dolled up in a suit of concern trolling.

austin

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2014, 10:27:11 AM »
"Life isn't fair, stop complaining" is the easiest thing in the world for someone from a position of privilege to say. It is far more difficult to take a hard introspective look at your life and see groups you were born into have benefited you and helped you attain the position you are in now, and to try to empathize with those not as privileged as you and try to understand what life for them is like. I tend to think that the harder path is usually the the more rewarding and just one.

"Life isn't fair, stop whining" is the easy way out. "Life isn't fair, what can I do to make it fairer?" is what people with character should be asking.

Gin1984

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2014, 10:38:18 AM »
I acknowledge that my circumstances have benefitted me by providing opportunity for success.  I disagree that opportunity equates to betterment however.  It's not the responsibility of those with privilege to pull up those without, the responsibility lies in providing opportunity more fairly to those without.
Ok, and how would you do that?  How would you provide opportunity for success, that compensate for the discrimination (including culturally indoctrinated beliefs, that many in a privileged position don't even realize they do?
There have been some ideas that come from research for people to compensate but then you run into the person like Alabaster who thinks he is not discriminatory so won't do any of them.  An example is HR removing names from CVs (or applications/resumes).  NIH did a major research project on this and when names were removed minorities (with the exemption of AA) and females had the same rate of acceptance/scores as males.  Yet, this is not done.  My boss thinks he is not discriminatory and therefore looks at the name, yet even in the interviews there were a bunch of red flags in regards to his personal prejudices. 
Please, I really want to know how you differentiate a hand-up vs an opportunity.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 11:09:18 AM by Gin1984 »

mm1970

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2014, 11:01:19 AM »
The problem with using a made up word from an old Heinlein novel is getting the spelling right. It's grokking with 2 ks. 

Life isn't fair, continually whining about it won't make it fair.  Legislating fairness hasn't worked well either.  I've got it that some have more opportunity than others, but regardless of the circumstances, you have to make the best life you can.

If we continually barrage the people that don't enjoy the "privilege" with how unfair their life is, it doesn't help them to succeed.  It gives some people excuses for their failure to achieve in life. Plenty of people of all colors have overcome adversity, be it racism or being born poor to achieve great success.

Whining doesn't help.
But those in privileged positions rethinking their privilege and using the privilege to pull those with less privilege up, has worked.  Also, being aware of discrimination and how it comes out and strategies to compensate do work.  Just saying well, you are better than those in a third world country so, it does not matter that you are treated badly here, makes no sense to me.

Yes, basically, this.

Beric01

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2014, 01:53:09 PM »
As you can see from some of the comments in this thread, discussions of privilege can be difficult for some people. If someone is in the privileged group being discussed, a common reaction is defensiveness. I think most of the time they don't understand what is meant by privilege. I hope they have an open mind and are willing to learn. Sometimes that is not the case, they recognize their privilege, but they are going to fight tooth and nail to retain it and against any leveling of the playing field.

The problem with this argument is it's circular reasoning. If anything is posted to counter it, it will be chalked up to "not acknowledging one's privilege". That's why I generally avoid any discussions regarding privilege - the only response given is "I'm sorry you don't understand your privilege" rather than any actual discussion. No disagreement with the concept of "privilege" is allowed.

Back to the original topic at hand: being a cyclist is awesome! I can skate past traffic that looks more like parked cars riding in a personal lane made just for me! I use a vehicle that requires no fuel other than human power, I can break the law blatantly with a cop on the corner and get ignored (note I don't actually do this), while getting paid sums of money monthly by my company for cycling. When riding along the road, cars give me wide berth (way more than I need). If this is called being "underprivileged", then I'm all for it.

hyla

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 10:00:22 PM »
Interesting article.

And in a similar vein:
https://medium.com/@nkkl/ride-like-a-girl-1d5524e25d3a

libertarian4321

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2014, 05:23:33 AM »
Interesting, I've had a very different experience riding a bike everywhere. Of course, I live in Boise, Id which is a pretty bike friendly place to live. Most drivers do actually go around me, and when they don't, they almost always try to squish as close to the inside of the road as they dare. I, in turn, try to make sure to stay as far to the outside as I can and take sidewalks when its appropriate. I actually feel quite privileged with my bike. For the most part, cars are very conscientious of me. I try to return the favor.

Quote
So when I say the semi driver is privileged, it isn’t a way of calling him a bad person or a man-slaughterer or saying he didn’t really earn his truck, but just way of acknowledging all that–infrastructure, laws, government, culture–and the fact that if he and I get in a collision, I will probably die and he will just have to clean the blood off of his bumper. In the same way, talking about racial privilege isn’t a way of telling white people they are bad people or racists or that they didn’t really earn what they have.

I thought the article was pretty solid overall. It seems the author has a good grasp of the different stakeholder views. As a privileged, white, male I'm ok with admitting my privilege right up until the point I think they are trying to tell me I'm something that simply isn't true. Just as the author wouldn't expect the simi diver to apologize for earning their truck, I'm not going to apologize for where I ended up. I made good choices and those have put me in a very comfortable life. If someone wants to say "hey, you got somewhere! Good for you, but be aware that you had advantages that other people simply don't" I'm not going to contest that. I will, however, get rather nasty rather quickly if someone tries to tell me that I have only been successful because I am privileged, white and male.
How do you know that is not true?  That at the same level of effort that you put in, that as a minority female, you may not have been successful?

I can answer this one.

My wife is one of those "minority females," and she does just as well as I do despite my privileged evil white male status (better, actually). 

Interestingly, she has found her success not by bitching, moaning, and complaining about "unfairness."  She found it a better use of her time to better herself, work hard, and succeed.

Who woulda' thunk it?

MoneyCat

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2014, 06:06:19 AM »
If white privilege actually existed, then I wouldn't have had to struggle so much for food, shelter, clothing, and other essentials when I was a child.  All this "white privilege" talk sounds like learned helplessness and victimhood to me.

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2014, 07:07:22 AM »
On the flip side, what advantages would the bike rider have enjoyed if a bus driver would have used his priveledge to "help" the biker?

If the bus driver would have pulled over and either offered or forced the biker to accept a bus ride, would the biker be able to enjoy the benefits of his bike ride?  Would it really "help" the biker?  No. The biker would neither be able to enjoy his ride nor the benefits of his labor (ie. saving money, being fit, etc.).

I think privelege allows people, in the name of fairness, to actively strip people of their rights and benefits.  The position of the "superior" person to feel like they need to help the "poor, unprivileged,  inferior" person also comes from a position of privelege, if not prejudice.

boy_bye

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2014, 07:26:05 AM »
On the flip side, what advantages would the bike rider have enjoyed if a bus driver would have used his priveledge to "help" the biker?

If the bus driver would have pulled over and either offered or forced the biker to accept a bus ride, would the biker be able to enjoy the benefits of his bike ride?  Would it really "help" the biker?  No. The biker would neither be able to enjoy his ride nor the benefits of his labor (ie. saving money, being fit, etc.).

I think privelege allows people, in the name of fairness, to actively strip people of their rights and benefits.  The position of the "superior" person to feel like they need to help the "poor, unprivileged,  inferior" person also comes from a position of privelege, if not prejudice.

Correcting "car privilege" wouldn't be about forcing bikers to get on the bus. It would be about designing the built landscape so that it was every bit as easy for bikes to get around as cars.

Similarly, understanding white privilege is the first step toward redesigning the way we do things so that it's just as easy for other groups to succeed as it is for white people. We've come a long way with this already, to be sure, but there's still a long way to go.

franklin w. dixon

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2014, 10:32:10 AM »
I can answer this one.

My wife is one of those "minority females," and she does just as well as I do despite my privileged evil white male status (better, actually). 

Interestingly, she has found her success not by bitching, moaning, and complaining about "unfairness."  She found it a better use of her time to better herself, work hard, and succeed.

Who woulda' thunk it?
[MOD removed comment.  Reason: Personal Attack]
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:14:02 AM by bo_knows »

davisgang90

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2014, 02:28:07 PM »
I can answer this one.

My wife is one of those "minority females," and she does just as well as I do despite my privileged evil white male status (better, actually). 

Interestingly, she has found her success not by bitching, moaning, and complaining about "unfairness."  She found it a better use of her time to better herself, work hard, and succeed.

Who woulda' thunk it?
[MOD removed comment.  Reason: Personal Attack]
Personal attack instead of a well thought response.  Classy.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:14:39 AM by bo_knows »

franklin w. dixon

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2014, 04:26:33 PM »
I can answer this one.

My wife is one of those "minority females," and she does just as well as I do despite my privileged evil white male status (better, actually). 

Interestingly, she has found her success not by bitching, moaning, and complaining about "unfairness."  She found it a better use of her time to better herself, work hard, and succeed.

Who woulda' thunk it?
[MOD removed comment.  Reason: Personal Attack]
Personal attack instead of a well thought response.  Classy.
Would you prefer I describe him as "bitching, moaning, and complaining," as he describes people who disagree with him?

When a dude swings into a thread about white privilege like a reckon ball dropping gendered slurs, "classy" was abandoned a long time ago.

Besides, logically speaking, "a guy is professionally less successful because he's crude and boorish" is a much more reasonable conclusion than, "my nonwhite wife is rich, ergo white privilege does not exist."
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:14:56 AM by bo_knows »

Gin1984

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2014, 05:56:23 PM »
I can answer this one.

My wife is one of those "minority females," and she does just as well as I do despite my privileged evil white male status (better, actually). 

Interestingly, she has found her success not by bitching, moaning, and complaining about "unfairness."  She found it a better use of her time to better herself, work hard, and succeed.

Who woulda' thunk it?
[MOD removed comment.  Reason: Personal Attack]
Personal attack instead of a well thought response.  Classy.
Would you prefer I describe him as "bitching, moaning, and complaining," as he describes people who disagree with him?

When a dude swings into a thread about white privilege like a reckon ball dropping gendered slurs, "classy" was abandoned a long time ago.

Besides, logically speaking, "a guy is professionally less successful because he's crude and boorish" is a much more reasonable conclusion than, "my nonwhite wife is rich, ergo white privilege does not exist."
And I find it funny that he thinks she only worked as hard as he did.  Even my husband realizes that I have to work harder than he does to be thought of as being just as good.  But then again, he is a scientist and has actually looked at the data.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:15:14 AM by bo_knows »

austin

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2014, 06:08:12 PM »
The idea that the world isn't fair and that we are born into relatively advantaged groups is obviously a troubling concept to accept for some privileged people. You see this defensive reaction whenever white privilege comes up. The right response is to direct them towards essays or speakers that do a good job of explaining privilege (like unpacking the invisible knapsack essay) but the truth is some folks just don't want to hear it if it will challenge their perception of themselves as completely self made, or they just might be outright racists.

mm1970

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2014, 03:12:49 PM »
I can answer this one.

My wife is one of those "minority females," and she does just as well as I do despite my privileged evil white male status (better, actually). 

Interestingly, she has found her success not by bitching, moaning, and complaining about "unfairness."  She found it a better use of her time to better herself, work hard, and succeed.

Who woulda' thunk it?
[MOD removed comment.  Reason: Personal Attack]
Personal attack instead of a well thought response.  Classy.
Would you prefer I describe him as "bitching, moaning, and complaining," as he describes people who disagree with him?

When a dude swings into a thread about white privilege like a reckon ball dropping gendered slurs, "classy" was abandoned a long time ago.

Besides, logically speaking, "a guy is professionally less successful because he's crude and boorish" is a much more reasonable conclusion than, "my nonwhite wife is rich, ergo white privilege does not exist."
And I find it funny that he thinks she only worked as hard as he did.  Even my husband realizes that I have to work harder than he does to be thought of as being just as good.  But then again, he is a scientist and has actually looked at the data.
This makes me so sad.

As sad as the males who just don't see their privilege. 

Every article about the wage gap has some guy who says "it doesn't exist, when you factor in job title, experience, etc., it's only 5-7%!"
Sigh.
At my wage, that's over $8000 a year.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:15:34 AM by bo_knows »

davisgang90

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2014, 04:22:25 PM »
The idea that the world isn't fair and that we are born into relatively advantaged groups is obviously a troubling concept to accept for some privileged people. You see this defensive reaction whenever white privilege comes up. The right response is to direct them towards essays or speakers that do a good job of explaining privilege (like unpacking the invisible knapsack essay) but the truth is some folks just don't want to hear it if it will challenge their perception of themselves as completely self made, or they just might be outright racists.
Ah yes, if you don't buy the whole white privilege shtick, you might be a racist.  I don't see myself as completely self made so by your definition I must be a racist. 

White privilege is just the concept of white guilt with glittery new packaging.

farmstache

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2014, 04:36:40 PM »
If white privilege actually existed, then I wouldn't have had to struggle so much for food, shelter, clothing, and other essentials when I was a child.  All this "white privilege" talk sounds like learned helplessness and victimhood to me.

MoneyCat, I think you can benefit from this article:

Explaining white privilege to a broke white person

austin

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2014, 05:39:32 PM »
The idea that the world isn't fair and that we are born into relatively advantaged groups is obviously a troubling concept to accept for some privileged people. You see this defensive reaction whenever white privilege comes up. The right response is to direct them towards essays or speakers that do a good job of explaining privilege (like unpacking the invisible knapsack essay) but the truth is some folks just don't want to hear it if it will challenge their perception of themselves as completely self made, or they just might be outright racists.
Ah yes, if you don't buy the whole white privilege shtick, you might be a racist.  I don't see myself as completely self made so by your definition I must be a racist. 

White privilege is just the concept of white guilt with glittery new packaging.

I didn't say you must be, I said it is likely a reason.

Exhale

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2014, 05:43:17 PM »
I thought that this was a really cool (and mustachian) way to explain white privilege. http://qz.com/257474/what-riding-my-bike-has-taught-me-about-white-privilege/

Thank you for this resource. As a white middle class person I seek to use my race and class privilege to promote equity. I have no control about what I was born with. However, I do have control over how I choose to use it. And thank you to farmstache for the link => http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html

Recognizing privilege doesn't mean suffering guilt or shame for your lot in life. Nobody's saying that straight, white, middle-class, able-bodied males are all a bunch of assholes who don't work hard for what they have. Recognizing privilege simply means being aware that some people have to work much harder just to experience the things you take for granted (if they ever can experience them at all).

davisgang90

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2014, 06:48:20 PM »
The idea that the world isn't fair and that we are born into relatively advantaged groups is obviously a troubling concept to accept for some privileged people. You see this defensive reaction whenever white privilege comes up. The right response is to direct them towards essays or speakers that do a good job of explaining privilege (like unpacking the invisible knapsack essay) but the truth is some folks just don't want to hear it if it will challenge their perception of themselves as completely self made, or they just might be outright racists.
Ah yes, if you don't buy the whole white privilege shtick, you might be a racist.  I don't see myself as completely self made so by your definition I must be a racist. 

White privilege is just the concept of white guilt with glittery new packaging.

I didn't say you must be, I said it is likely a reason.
I was raised to not make assumptions about people based on the color of their skin or what is between their legs.  Here's a good article about another Privileged White Male.  http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/17230/

Gin1984

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2014, 07:09:49 PM »
The idea that the world isn't fair and that we are born into relatively advantaged groups is obviously a troubling concept to accept for some privileged people. You see this defensive reaction whenever white privilege comes up. The right response is to direct them towards essays or speakers that do a good job of explaining privilege (like unpacking the invisible knapsack essay) but the truth is some folks just don't want to hear it if it will challenge their perception of themselves as completely self made, or they just might be outright racists.
Ah yes, if you don't buy the whole white privilege shtick, you might be a racist.  I don't see myself as completely self made so by your definition I must be a racist. 

White privilege is just the concept of white guilt with glittery new packaging.

I didn't say you must be, I said it is likely a reason.
I was raised to not make assumptions about people based on the color of their skin or what is between their legs.  Here's a good article about another Privileged White Male.  http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/17230/
I've read his article, more than once.  And honestly, he sounds like a fool.  To show how he was not privileged, he has examples of how his ancestors were harmed.  Not once, does he show how HE struggled.  In fact, many of arguments, hold evidence for the other side.  How he was raised made it so HE got in IVY school, not his parents but him.  He also has some weird and untrue ideas on what privilege is.  No one is saying that his privilege means that he did not accomplish things, just that he had a slightly easier time then someone without those privileges.  Poor kid is going to have this follow him the rest of his life, into interviews, into relationships, even if he grows up and changes his mind. 

legacyoneup

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2014, 07:47:41 PM »
The problem with using a made up word from an old Heinlein novel is getting the spelling right. It's grokking with 2 ks. 

Life isn't fair, continually whining about it won't make it fair.  Legislating fairness hasn't worked well either.  I've got it that some have more opportunity than others, but regardless of the circumstances, you have to make the best life you can.

If we continually barrage the people that don't enjoy the "privilege" with how unfair their life is, it doesn't help them to succeed.  It gives some people excuses for their failure to achieve in life. Plenty of people of all colors have overcome adversity, be it racism or being born poor to achieve great success.

Whining doesn't help.

+1. Well said. All of us plebeians have some sort of cross to bear. Such is life.

Guizmo

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2014, 07:49:14 PM »
Just heard on NPR that black and latino kids are 3x as likely as their white counterparts to be suspended from school for the same offenses.

And researchers believe this can be a variable that leads to the school-to-prison pipeline. Yes, white privilege clearly exists if you look at the data. That doesn't make white people evil, it just means that a system created and led by white people benefits white people more.

Luck12

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2014, 11:17:19 PM »
The problem with using a made up word from an old Heinlein novel is getting the spelling right. It's grokking with 2 ks. 

Life isn't fair, continually whining about it won't make it fair.  Legislating fairness hasn't worked well either.  I've got it that some have more opportunity than others, but regardless of the circumstances, you have to make the best life you can.

If we continually barrage the people that don't enjoy the "privilege" with how unfair their life is, it doesn't help them to succeed.  It gives some people excuses for their failure to achieve in life. Plenty of people of all colors have overcome adversity, be it racism or being born poor to achieve great success.

Whining doesn't help.

+1. Well said. All of us plebeians have some sort of cross to bear. Such is life.

Just b/c some people achieve success despite being poor or a minority or because "everyone has some cross to bear" shouldn't mean we should do nothing about injustice! 

I'm paraphrasing:  "If you're white and don't acknowledge you are privileged, you are an asshole" - Louis CK

davisgang90

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2014, 06:13:52 AM »
The problem with using a made up word from an old Heinlein novel is getting the spelling right. It's grokking with 2 ks. 

Life isn't fair, continually whining about it won't make it fair.  Legislating fairness hasn't worked well either.  I've got it that some have more opportunity than others, but regardless of the circumstances, you have to make the best life you can.

If we continually barrage the people that don't enjoy the "privilege" with how unfair their life is, it doesn't help them to succeed.  It gives some people excuses for their failure to achieve in life. Plenty of people of all colors have overcome adversity, be it racism or being born poor to achieve great success.

Whining doesn't help.

+1. Well said. All of us plebeians have some sort of cross to bear. Such is life.

Just b/c some people achieve success despite being poor or a minority or because "everyone has some cross to bear" shouldn't mean we should do nothing about injustice! 

I'm paraphrasing:  "If you're white and don't acknowledge you are privileged, you are an asshole" - Louis CK
So plenty is done about the injustice.  Diversity inc., Affirmative Action etc. yet the problem remains.  I don't see how telling white men to "check their privilege" if they have an opinion is going to help fix the problems of society.  The longer we institutionalize the "Airing of Grievances" the less progress we will make toward making Dr. King's dream a reality. 

MoneyCat

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2014, 06:29:26 AM »
Here's the most informative article I have found on "white privilege":

http://www.theonion.com/articles/white-male-privilege-squandered-on-job-at-best-buy,35835/

Jack

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2014, 06:37:31 AM »
When a dude swings into a thread about white privilege like a reckon ball...

I reckon you meant "wrecking ball."

davisgang90

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2014, 06:46:00 AM »
When a dude swings into a thread about white privilege like a reckon ball...

I reckon you meant "wrecking ball."
I assumed he meant Recon Ball, like a dance for folks who work in the reconnaissance field.

Bob W

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Re: What riding my bicycle taught me about white privilege
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2014, 08:19:45 AM »
Almost no one rides a bike in my community.   Too hilly, too dangerous.   

Now children do ride bikes in safe areas here.  So what are we saying?   Are our kids underprivileged here?  Do those that live in Ferguson ride bikes?   

Perhaps more importantly,  why does one choose to ride their bike is such dangerous conditions?   


This analogy is a stretch in my opinion.