Author Topic: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)  (Read 8988 times)

thedayisbrave

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"The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« on: September 06, 2014, 09:37:50 AM »
I've been pleasantly surprised when reading to find that there is a large number of twentysomethings who frequent this board.  Being a twentysomething myself, I'm intimately familiar with the all the trials and tribulations of our generation.  I've gone through the 'identity crisis' after majoring in a 'useless' subject.  My friend recommended the book "The Defining Decade" to me (written by clinical psychologist Meg Jay) when I was in a bit of a slump - severely underemployed at the local Starbucks, I'd just withdrawn from a grad program because it didn't strike the spark in me, and was wandering... trying to figure out what my next move was.

This book is fantastic, and a must-read for anyone, though especially those in their twenties.  It lays out a lot of the misconceptions that we've come to accept, due to the media and what we've been raised to believe.  It seems that now the twentysomething years are for wandering around aimlessly, trying to do everything for fear of missing out, yet not really accomplishing anything that will set us up for future success.

Anyway, I highly, highly recommend this book.  :)

sheepstache

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 10:10:49 AM »
I like it too.  I read it when someone else on the board mentioned it (windawake maybe?), though I'm already in my 30s.  I'm glad to hear 20-somethings that like it because while I thought it was a message I could have used then it seemed like most of the reviews I'd read by 20-somethings took it as criticism and stereotyping.

I loved her pointing out the contradiction that supposedly the 20s are a time to "explore" and that people who settle down then are squares or something, but then the moment you're 30 you're supposed to have your whole life in order.

There does seem to be an "adolescence creep."  If you look at what 15-year-olds were responsible for a century ago, that's a job we'd be nervous giving 20-year-olds today.  People are treated like children even a couple years out of college.  Somebody posted a really funny Louis C.K. clip making fun of 20-year-olds who hate their jobs where he's like, 'Of course your job is stupid, that's why we gave it to you, because you're 20!  For two decades you've been a leech on society, not doing anything for anybody, you have no experience!"  Yet part of me was like, but whose fault is it that they've had no responsibility? And are we going to be saying the same thing to them when they're 25?  'Oh, you've only had McJobs up until this point so we can't trust you with anything else.'  30?

thedayisbrave

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 11:05:28 AM »
sheepstache - Exactly.  Recent grads face this all the time.  For instance, I was job searching pretty much the whole of this year up until June or so.  I have an advanced degree in business but positions I felt I was qualified for wanted 5-10 years of experience.  I'm pretty sure they didn't mean fast food experience.  But then it's like, if nobody will give me a chance how do I get that experience?

I don't see the book as criticism but it's definitely a kick in the pants in some ways.  I mean, I'm still in my twenties so I can't know for sure yet, but I feel like her message is so important - that the twenties are meant for setting yourself up in life.  I know many of my peers don't feel this way, or they might but they've lost sight of the big picture and feel stuck.  I've had my fair share of feeling stuck but I think what helped me was taking baby steps and never saying 'no' to an opportunity.

zataks

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2014, 11:49:23 AM »
I'm almost done with my current book (The Top 5 Regrets of the Dying; worth reading and very enjoyable) and have been wondering what I will read next as I'm on a nonfiction kick (and probably will be until the next ASOIAF release, honestly). And I just checked Amazon, can get it for $1.99 on Kindle so pretty certain this WILL be next.
I think I heard the author of this book interviewed on NPR some time back because I remember the bit about wandering about and hearing kind of what you've summarized here.

To go off the immediately previous post: at 28 with little college and no degree but now as a high earner, I feel I HAVE set myself up for life over the last 10 years.  I've worked very hard to make something of myself from very, very little and from a place where most would not expect me to become anything.  It's been challenging and exhausting and I've been angry, and frustrated, and confused, and scared, (and many of these problems also stem from a traumatic childhood) but these feelings are lessening as I get older and I am feeling more secure and positive about the future and my ability to handle anything to come. 

Unfortunately, I see/hear so many other 20somethings acting/feeling entitled to not working shitty positions because they went to college.  Too often I think these folks don't realize that everyone has worked a shit position and it is what builds character and helps create a respectful work place, knowing we've all been through less than desirable jobs.   When I have to explain operations/functionality/theory to new engineers I think, "yea, I SHOULD be receiving better pay than this employee."  But I've also been working my ass of in my industry for over 8 years and functioning in lead capacities for 5. 

I seem to have digressed.  I look forward to the book.

thedayisbrave

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2014, 12:00:50 PM »

Unfortunately, I see/hear so many other 20somethings acting/feeling entitled to not working shitty positions because they went to college.  Too often I think these folks don't realize that everyone has worked a shit position and it is what builds character and helps create a respectful work place, knowing we've all been through less than desirable jobs. 
Agreed.  My kids WILL work menial jobs regardless of where we are financially.  I've worked in food service the past 7 years and it has definitely built character and taught me the value of treating someone with respect.  It also helped launch me into my next position because customer service is a huge focus of my new job.  Learning and realizing what you have is important and my "menial" fast food job has taught me so much about that. 

sheepstache

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2014, 12:13:49 PM »

Unfortunately, I see/hear so many other 20somethings acting/feeling entitled to not working shitty positions because they went to college.  Too often I think these folks don't realize that everyone has worked a shit position and it is what builds character and helps create a respectful work place, knowing we've all been through less than desirable jobs. 
Agreed.  My kids WILL work menial jobs regardless of where we are financially.  I've worked in food service the past 7 years and it has definitely built character and taught me the value of treating someone with respect.  It also helped launch me into my next position because customer service is a huge focus of my new job.  Learning and realizing what you have is important and my "menial" fast food job has taught me so much about that.

Yeah, there are kids who are entitled but I think part of it is that we put these entry-level jobs down so much as being dead-end and stupid and pointless that it's understandable for people working them to despair of ever moving on from them.  They are stepping stones but that's sort of a secret for some reason.

zataks

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 12:52:38 PM »
Yeah, there are kids who are entitled but I think part of it is that we put these entry-level jobs down so much as being dead-end and stupid and pointless that it's understandable for people working them to despair of ever moving on from them.  They are stepping stones but that's sort of a secret for some reason.

Similarly, a couple months ago I was talking with someone who had recently completed a baccalaureate degree in something bio-medically related and was frustrated at the low pay she was receiving where she worked.  She had been an employee at the company less than a year and was making in the teens/hour (SF bay area!) which is not good for around here.  I tried to console her that the people above her acknowledged her degree, that's why she had the job but that she had to do the grunt work for a while to learn everything about the facility before moving up as jobs opened.  Unfortunately, she didn't seem to understand as she just couldn't believe she was making so little and felt she had put in her dues by getting the bachelor's degree. 

Don't know that it's a secret; I new from the day I started at 16 years old, I would be quitting my job at Wendy's.  I stuck it out for a whole year though and even managed to move up in pay & position working there.  It sucked and was gross and I would not do it again.  But it was a good experience and taught me a lot about working with people, customers, and helped develop work ethic. 

Agreed.  My kids WILL work menial jobs regardless of where we are financially.  I've worked in food service the past 7 years and it has definitely built character and taught me the value of treating someone with respect.  It also helped launch me into my next position because customer service is a huge focus of my new job.  Learning and realizing what you have is important and my "menial" fast food job has taught me so much about that.

I'm glad to hear this.  And I agree; my [future] kids will as well.  And I've discussed this with future Mrs. Z and I don't remember her response but I think it was along the lines of "hell yea they're going to work!"  She also worked her butt off since 16 or so but while I left college to straighten myself out and work, lacking the discipline for university, she worked jobs and studied through an undergrad and Ph.D program.  I guess what I'm getting at is that it's apparent who has worked and earned and who has been given and acts entitled.  And I'd much rather be the former than the latter. 

zataks

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 04:40:41 PM »
Finished my previous book and started this one Saturday night, just finished.

Overall very good read. It actually gave me a lot of comfort and reassurance that I'm doing things right/well. 
I enjoyed hearing that what I react to or that seems like a huge deal may soon be less of a concern at work.

Thanks for the recommendation!

Philociraptor

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 04:59:39 PM »
I read it. Lots of confirmation of what I've done so far in my life. Thanks for reminding me of it, I'll recommend it to the young folks at CrossFit.

DollarsAndDissonance

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 04:12:29 PM »
I have not read the book, but the author gave a good TED talk on the same topic last year: http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20

thedayisbrave

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2014, 07:19:06 AM »
I have not read the book, but the author gave a good TED talk on the same topic last year: http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20
Ironically that showed up on my Facebook feed the other day... Thanks!

myteafix

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2014, 02:07:25 PM »
I have not read the book, but the author gave a good TED talk on the same topic last year: http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20
Ironically that showed up on my Facebook feed the other day... Thanks!

I thought this topic sounded familiar! I recall watching that TED talk as well.

As a 23-year-old, I would be interested in investigating this book myself; I've never been a fan of living aimless.

Adventine

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2014, 04:41:42 AM »
I have not read the book, but the author gave a good TED talk on the same topic last year: http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20

I just watched the video. Great stuff!

Gone Fishing

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2014, 10:03:33 AM »
Average age a NASA was 28 when we put Apollo 11 on the moon.  Fluid intelligence (the ability to think abstractly) peaks in the 20's and starts to decline thereafter. Certain industries seem to understand this better than others. 

Some things have changed, but others have remained the same.  Kids today seem to have less responsibility around the house (very few live on a farm anymore, probably the peak of responsibility).  I know several people with teenage sons that pay to have their lawn mowed.  Not only are these children not prepared for responsibility, but they also taint the image of responsible youths.  On the other hand, the hippie adolescents of the 60's didn't have a great reputation for responsibility either, but enough of them turned out at least good enough to keep the machine running, and growing.

I think the boomers are also holding onto the reins pretty tightly as well, out of both necessity and greed, but they will only be able to hold onto them for so long.  There will be a great turnover of both wealth and leadership in the coming decades.  I believe there will be lots of opportunity for those who are ready. 

Thank you for the recommendation.  I am in my thirties, but I enjoy reading what others think of the various generations, and demographic changes in general.  I think demographics are far more powerful than people give them credit for.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 11:44:32 AM by So Close »

Philociraptor

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2014, 10:13:48 AM »
I think the boomers are also holding onto the reins pretty lightly as well, out of both necessity and greed, but they will only be able to hold onto them for so long.  There will be a great turnover of both wealth and leadership in the coming decades.  I believe there will be lots of opportunity for those who are ready.

This.  When these guys refuse to retire there's no room for responsibility growth among the young. I can see the frustration in every coworker under 40, they all feel like they can't have any impact around here because of the lingering 60+ folks.

MooseOutFront

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2014, 11:16:51 AM »
thanks for the recommendation.  I have a 20something coworker that I think will appreciate it.

Chranstronaut

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2014, 03:57:01 PM »
This sounds good and I really like everyone's discussion on it.  *Added to reading list*

This year in my life has definitely been the one where I'm really feeling all the things your 20's are "supposed" to be about.  This is good timing.

Average age a NASA was 28 when we put Apollo 11 on the moon.  Fluid intelligence (the ability to think abstractly) peaks in the 20's and starts to decline thereafter. Certain industries seem to understand this better than others. 

I believe this is about the average age of people at SpaceX... interesting...


Gone Fishing

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2014, 07:06:27 PM »
I have not read the book, but the author gave a good TED talk on the same topic last year: http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20

Watched the video.  Moral of the story: Get off your ass and make something happen.

Ynari

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2014, 01:39:57 AM »
Thanks to this thread I asked my library to get the ebook copy of this. I hope they do so!

I am interested to see the psychology behind this sort of procrastination of life that some people do. I watched the TED talk and really felt the urgency to DO STUFF, instead of the comfort that a few people have mentioned after getting the book. However, I'm not the biggest fan of urgency when it turns into worry, and from her video I got a sense of worry that I'm not optimizing these "best" years, and therefore wasting them.  Urgency may be helpful when it turns into motivation, but I found myself with chaotic worried thoughts that I had to calm down. I'm hoping the book doesn't just make me worry that I'm not doing good enough.

That said, I think I might not be the typical audience. I certainly know people who could use a kick-in-the-pants.

arebelspy

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2014, 08:59:49 AM »
I find it fascinating that so many Mustachians like this.  I watched the TED talk and couldn't stand how much she oversimplified life - both the 20s and after.  I thought in many cases she was flat out wrong, or spinning things in a way that is misleading.

This, for example:
Quote
This is not my opinion. These are the facts. We know that 80 percent of life's most defining moments take place by age 35.

Okay, that's great.  But how many of those defining moments take place before 20?  When she's talking 20s, 20s, 20s, then throws a stat like that out there (which includes age 0-20, and I bet a lot of those defining moments happen during childhood/adolescence), it's misleading.

I mean, I get she's selling something, but still.  The main thing that bothers me though is the amount of pressure this puts on kids to figure out right away what they are doing, find someone, settle down, etc. etc.  One can enjoy their 20s without being told "Where are the twentysomethings here? Do not do that. Okay, now that sounds a little flip, but make no mistake, the stakes are very high." (from the TEDTalk.) 

I think a balance can be made between making progress in your life and enjoying it, and I think she goes way too far the other way towards putting pressure on people in their 20s.

/shrug

Had to throw an alternative viewpoint out there, since everyone seems to love it so much.

Also here's what I've posted elsewhere on this forum about this book/TED Talk, as it seems to pop up every six months or so:
Quote
I have mixed thoughts on this.  On one hand, I agree that slacking/delaying in adulthood too long is not good.  On the other, I'm okay with someone in their young 20s taking a year to travel, or not being quite sure what they're doing yet.  I don't like the idea of a bunch of pressure on someone in their early 20s.

There's a balance that can be struck, IMO.  Waiting until you're 28-30 to take charge is probably waiting a bit too long, and I agree with the author.  Feeling that pressure when you're 20-22 is probably too much.  Somewhere in the middle, maybe 25ish, one ought to go "Okay, I'm done doing ___, time to get serious" (about romance, about careers, etc.)

As with pretty much everything, extremes are to be avoided.  So that's where I disagree with this link - it goes too far the other way, IMO.  But it is sage advice for those in their mid 20s (24-26), that they might want to start thinking about getting serious.

For me personally though, 30 will be the new 20.  A lot of 20 year olds have their first kid in their early 20s.  A lot take time off to travel internationally.  Me personally, at age 30, I'll have my first kid and quit my job to travel around the world.  I did it backwards - instead of delaying the work, etc. and having a drifting, laid-back 20s, I did all that up front and will have a drifting, laid-back 30s-70s (though my 20s have been very enjoyable as well, including the two month backpacking through Europe trip).  That's my favorite route to then be able to say "30 is the new 20!"  :)
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sheepstache

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2014, 04:02:46 PM »
I think that's all fair to say, I just didn't read that into her message. Maybe she's better at expressing herself in the book. Or maybe it depends what your background is, because she's definitely expressing herself to a certain background.

I didn't get the impression she was encouraging the extreme that you have to figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life in your 20s. I thought her message was simply that you have to do something. Her own personal story is that she worked as an Outward Bound counselor, which ended up being quite different from the career that she ultimately chose.

I think she's responding to the fact that so many kids wait around for inspiration to strike about the perfect ultimate.. thing they're going to do. There's a cultural trope that everyone has a Perfect Ultimate Thing and that once you've started on the path to a PUT, you can't change your mind.

One of her points is that trying new things is how you figure out what your PUT is. If you just drift around taking yoga classes and working un-challenging jobs, you aren't making any headway. The passage of time isn't some magical catalyst.

In your own case, you've done a lot in your 20s and you're now entering your 30s with professional, financial, lifeskill, and relationship capital which you'll use to do what you really want, possibly your PUT :) The capital you've accrued is due to your having made choices and commitments which have ultimately given you more choices than just fearfully holding on to your potential, keeping it virginal and unsullied.

And in the meantime, as you say, you've enjoyed yourself. Rather than stewing in angsty indecisive complacency. That might be another benefit of the book is that she speaks in case studies and you see that she's addressing distress that her young patients feel. She's not telling people who are happy with their lives that they're doing it wrong.

Maybe your teaching background puts you more in touch with the part of the culture that puts pressure on kids to hurry up and do Adult Things.

Conversely, maybe you see this attitude not at all and therefore see this as a push in that direction rather than backlash against the opposite.

It's kind of like being given a map and told to give someone directions but not being told where they are to start with. Telling someone to go right might send them up a mountain or into a lake depending. Hard to speak to your audience when there are so many messages out there and you don't know which they're exposed to.

Or maybe I and others are simply reading into her book what makes sense to us.

There might also be the age old problem here of not agreeing with the culture but nonetheless trying to help people living in it. Maybe it's not wise that we put so much emphasis on achievements. But for most people growing up in this culture, if they get to 30 with no significant achievements it's going to be difficult for them to feel capable of controlling and enjoying their lives.

Or there's the nature of cultural debates that they tend to be in the format of agreeing or disagreeing.
Had to throw an alternative viewpoint out there, since everyone seems to love it so much.
Case in point :)

I would add that, as a female, the points about relationships and fertility are very well taken. There's a strong current that says that women in their early twenties who express hopes about getting married and having kids are hopeless throwbacks who will end up barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, a disgrace to us all :) It's as though acknowledging the unfairness of biology is incompatible with equality. I don't think the author would take issue with your wife having kids in her 30s, because your wife at least had a plan. She didn't suddenly wake up at 30 being like, "oh, right..." And she, hopefully, knew there was some risk to waiting, whereas there's a lot of popular lore that says everyone can have a kid any time before they're 40.

arebelspy

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2014, 05:59:32 PM »
That was a well thought out reply, thank you sheepstache.

I agree that we each read into things based on ourselves.

The way I've seen this shared most often is from people who want to look down on those who enjoyed their 20s, either because they themselves didn't, or are jealous of others who did.  "Tsk tsk tsk, you should grow up a little, you wasted your 20s, ha ha ha," and/or the message that is sent with it is to "stop spending time being happy, and get serious about life" as a way to chide/deride those who do spend some of their 20s traveling, or trying to pursue a passion, or enjoying a fling or two.  And I ask who are they to judge?

I don't see a need to rush into being a Serious Adult With Many Important Things To Do, or agree with the concept that many people are "wasting" their 20s.   I say not only are your 30s the new 20s, so are your 40s, 50s, and 60s!  (Biological exceptions - such as fertility - aside.  And that is an unfair, but inescapable, thing.)

Just some food for thought. :)
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Ynari

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2014, 08:00:20 PM »
I'm really thinking the TED talk is just too short for her to express the context needed for a balanced point (particularly when she brings up biology in the TED talk. I think condensed statements about biological differences in the brain are practically irrelevant. Like the whole "boy vs girl brain" minuscule difference that doesn't hold up in individuals, or the "adults are much worse at learning languages than children" myth, I think the "20s are the last time your brain is really set up for learning" thing can be practically useless thanks to habit and motivation applied at any point in your life.) Alternatively, people who use the book to judge others are just being dickheads and that doesn't necessarily reflect Meg Jay's argument.

One of the reasons I'm "on track" according to her criteria is because I try things. Before college, I made a promise to myself to say "yes" to opportunities more than I said "no". I tried things out even if I thought/knew they might not last (Which leads to this FI thing. The RE is giving myself an option out if working full time isn't what I want.) That versatile attitude has lead to a life more directed than some 30-somethings and up.

Some people who feel the pressure to figure stuff out (like my sister - guess what - age 20) just want to know what they really want in life so they can just do it. But it's like the myth that there's a soul mate out there for you - there's not just a single career that's you'll love. Passion, I think, comes from a mixture of discovery, creativity, and hard work; people get stuck when they think it's the other way around.  Cal Newport's blog (http://calnewport.com/blog/about/) has some posts about the myth of "Follow your passion", which seems like it might be compatible with Meg Jay's points? Having not read the book, though, I can't speak directly to her arguments.

thedayisbrave

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Re: "The Defining Decade" - Why Your Twenties Matter (book rec)
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2014, 08:06:40 PM »
Wow... I obviously neglected to check in, this thread has had some great discussion action! Where this book helped me was to commit to something.  After I graduated from college, I still had no idea what I wanted to do, but I had some vague notions... I ended up trying out a grad school program, disliking it after a month and withdrawing, to working at Starbucks and going back to a different grad program I had initially turned down.  I *needed* that year to look at the different pieces of my life and incidentally that is when I first read the book.

For me, it provided a kick-in-the-pants that was needed.  I get too hooked on the idea of that ideal job and get analysis paralysis in a way.  I've begun to feel that excruciatingly well with this next job opportunity I have.  Commitment is scary!!! Personally, it makes me anxious because even though I've locked in something great, I still think about all the other things I want to do business-wise and then feel like I'm "wasting time" by working a full-time 9-5.  I feel "trapped" very easily and I don't know if it's just me or my generation overall.  But when I look back at my previous job (fast food) which I was at for 7 YEARS, I never felt that way... it could have been the part-time/flexible scheduling or the friendliness of the workplace or a whole host of other factors, but I was just so happy there and so in my element.  I try to remember that and let go of the anxiety of the question, "Is this it?"

I agree that too much pressure shouldn't be put on young people.  But I think it also depends on the young person involved.  For those who ARE just lazing around and playing video games and actively NOT applying to jobs all day long, you probably need this kick in the pants.  I mean, I've traveled a bunch, gone to awesome concerts and have had great times with my friends, yet still have managed to build my human capital and get started on my financial capital as well... so they're not mutually exclusive...