Author Topic: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022  (Read 28176 times)

Frugal Lizard

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Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« on: December 16, 2021, 08:28:57 AM »
I got my second seed catalogue yesterday so I decided it's time to start planning the garden for the next season in the Northern Hemisphere.

Too early?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2021, 01:12:41 PM »
Not too early.  Gardening catalogues are like the solstice.  They give us hope in these dark days.

Cranky

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2021, 05:17:15 AM »
I can hardly wait for a catalog to turn up!

We’ve installed 6 new raised beds, and already have a good sized vegetable plot, and dh has applied for a bed in the community garden down the street…

Askel

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2021, 08:32:22 AM »

Too early?

Not according to my wife's facebook. 


RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2021, 10:17:54 AM »

Too early?

Not according to my wife's facebook.

Now that is a day all gardeners can support.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2021, 09:54:56 AM »
I have started working on my garden plan. 

The grow stand that DH built last year needs some restructuring to improve ease of use: I want to be able to move it around more easily, adjust the lighting up and down and make it easier to monitor moisture. 

I need to cut some more lumber for bracing and cut the chains for the lighting so that the lights don't fall down on the seedlings.
I bought another heat mat to increase the growing area.

I have to put up some cat exclusion panels.  Darn cats chew on the seedlings and then barf. EVERYWHERE.  Want something cheap (naturally) and easy to open for watering and will allow the fan for air movement.  Any ideas Hive Mind?

the_hobbitish

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2021, 09:53:37 AM »
It's in the 50s today - weirdly warm for winter in zone 7. I planted out 9 peonies into the flowerbed in front of the house. I can't wait for spring.

I'm still debating whether I'm going to start anything indoors this year. I don't have enough lights so I end up with leggy seedlings and I'm not patient enough about the hardening off process. I think my growing season is long enough that I'm going to save myself the trouble and start everything outdoors except for a few of the dahlia tubers.

Is everyone doing indoor seedlings or straight in ground this year?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2022, 07:58:12 AM by the_hobbitish »

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2022, 10:10:39 AM »
@the_hobbitish  - I will be doing a mix of seedlings and direct sown.  I have invested in a lot of indoor sowing infrastructure so I *have* to use it effectively.

I have all the gear for soil blocks so I will be starting a lot more than your average home gardener.  Since I have a ton of old seed, I am going to "use it up" in the tiniest of soil blocks and move up all the seeds that actually germinate.  Planting out soil blocks is so much less work than cell packs and I get so much better germination with the control I have in my basement seed starting zone, I will likely "overdo" how many seedlings I start.

Going to start
white, red, yellow, scallions, shallots onions
paste, slicing and cherry tomatoes
eggplant
fennel
lima, fava beans
tomatilloes
peppers - sweet reds, yellow, scotch bonnet, purple sweet, bright green, roasting type, a mixed colour snacking type, paprika type
squash - butternut, spaghetti, delicata, acorn, turban, dumpling, buttercup, a japanese type, blue ballet, summer squash medley and dark green zucchini
basil
cilantro
cabbage - three types
broccoli
bok choi
spinach
first crop of beets
rutabagas
lettuces, kale and arugula blocks too!

I have room for 12 trays (1020 size) in the basement and then they can graduate to an unheated greenhouse for more space when the weather allows. 
Last year I started a couple of trays in July of beets and greens that don't like the heat of the summer in the cool basement.  They went out into the garden in August and September.  This yielded turnips and beets in December and greens out the wazoo all fall. 

I can dial it back a tad as there is a lot of unharvested food in this garden.





LazyDavy

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2022, 08:31:50 AM »
Just placed one of my two seed orders the other day.

I have a lot I need to do to prepare the planting area. Right now it's halfway sheet mulched, just leaves over cardboard - I need to order a manure delivery, spread it, and get some wood chips to put on top. Then hope that a couple more months of aging is enough to turn the manure into a good growing medium.

I've got an anti-digging fence mostly done, but need to build a gate and hang the above-ground part of the fencing (which is taller and has slightly larger holes, to keep deer out).

I've got a pretty good collection of cardboard oatmeal cans for seed starting in, but I want more. I just started saving ice cream cartons, too. They're not biodegradable, but should be easy enough to cut off of a plant without damaging the roots.

tygertygertyger

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2022, 08:57:54 AM »
Wow. I haven't started thinking about seeds yet (but I know I have all the seeds I'm likely to need for this year. Bought lots during the pandemic.)

We moved into a new house, and our rough plan is to remove the large prairie behind the garage, as that is the best spot for a garden. (It makes me sad to remove the prairie. However, our dog loves running through it and getting seeds in his fur, so I will keep that in mind. My partner promises we'll add some prairie to our front yard.)

I'm trying more to figure out how to manage plant removal. The real bummer is that I don't know entirely what we'd be removing (we just moved here in November). I know there's some rose bushes (we're not fans, but I assume someone else might want them), a large hydrangea bush (maybe we can keep that), some raspberries (keeping!), and assorted other seed producers that keep my dog in seeds. Also some vines covering the area - the previous owners don't seem to have kept entirely on top of things, though they were obviously keen gardeners in the past.

I have lots of pots from 6 years of apartment living, and would be okay to do only minimal gardening while we figure out what we have. My partner is VERY interested in making changes though, and getting things to how we'd like them. This year should be interesting while we negotiate what we do. 

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2022, 09:39:03 AM »
Wow. I haven't started thinking about seeds yet (but I know I have all the seeds I'm likely to need for this year. Bought lots during the pandemic.)

We moved into a new house, and our rough plan is to remove the large prairie behind the garage, as that is the best spot for a garden. (It makes me sad to remove the prairie. However, our dog loves running through it and getting seeds in his fur, so I will keep that in mind. My partner promises we'll add some prairie to our front yard.)

I'm trying more to figure out how to manage plant removal. The real bummer is that I don't know entirely what we'd be removing (we just moved here in November). I know there's some rose bushes (we're not fans, but I assume someone else might want them), a large hydrangea bush (maybe we can keep that), some raspberries (keeping!), and assorted other seed producers that keep my dog in seeds. Also some vines covering the area - the previous owners don't seem to have kept entirely on top of things, though they were obviously keen gardeners in the past.

I have lots of pots from 6 years of apartment living, and would be okay to do only minimal gardening while we figure out what we have. My partner is VERY interested in making changes though, and getting things to how we'd like them. This year should be interesting while we negotiate what we do.
when people ask these questions to me when I am wearing my landscape architects hat, my answer is usually:  Call me next spring.  In the meantime keep a photo log and journal of your existing garden for all the seasons. A large transformation needs a master plan so that you do everything only once and end up with a cohesive outdoor home that supports your lifestyle.
One thing you could do now is collect some of the seeds from your prairie. 
But if you gotta grow some food this season because you just can't wait:  start small, and do some pots and a few no dig beds.  By the time spring comes you will have some idea of the warmest pockets and low spots just by how the snow melts / rain water ponds / things green up quickest.

I didn't realize it by I have been lasagne / no dig gardening forever and it is the easiest method!


tygertygertyger

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2022, 10:07:51 AM »
This is good advice - thank you. I read your reply out loud to him and he reluctantly agrees we can slow down on that area. (I do worry that he'll turn his attention to the front yard landscaping with a vengeance now - he is determined to get rid of every rose bush - but oh well!)

There is one section that we've already agreed to work on this year that currently has only grass and a single tree, so I'll plan to talk a lot about that area and hope that works as a distraction.

In the meantime, I'm going to go check out the seeds I've stockpiled and figure out my smaller garden plan!


the_hobbitish

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2022, 02:21:30 PM »
That's a large (and nice looking) plot Frugal Lizard. I'm envious of your greenhouse. I think they really help with the indoor to outdoor seedling transition.

I have a small greenhouse kit that's still in a box in the garage. I doubt I'll build it in time for this spring, but hopefully before next year.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2022, 02:34:48 PM »
@the_hobbitish - the garden and greenhouse are borrowed.  I am the luckiest person to have neighbours that give me re-use of the property. 
They were joking around about a zombie apocalypse last summer.  They have bees, chickens, maple syrup and the greenhouse / garden that they would have to kick me off of.  The oldest kid said absolutely no way we could evict Frugal Lizard, they can't grow what she can.  The mom wanted me to know that during the zombie apocalypse, me and my family get to move in with them so I can continue to grow their food.

the_hobbitish

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2022, 07:56:23 AM »
Ha. That cracks me up - great win win. Wonderful that your town allows chickens and bees (or that no one reports that you have them). I'm pretty sure none of my neighbors would mind it I got chickens, but for now I travel too much to give it a go.

I have a similar amount of space and only half an idea what to do with it.

Does anyone grow sweet potatoes? How do you keep them contained? Do you trellis them?

sixwings

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2022, 09:19:44 AM »
I got an oyster mushroom growing kit from some friends for christmas, I've set it up now in my garage, I hope it works!!! Would be really cool to grow my own mushrooms.

My garlic has been sprouting so that's exciting. I planted about 90 cloves in a raised bed. Garlic is my favorite to grow and then eat all year.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 09:22:25 AM by sixwings »

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2022, 09:24:43 AM »
I got an oyster mushroom growing kit from some friends for christmas, I've set it up now in my garage, I hope it works!!! Would be really cool to grow my own mushrooms.
I've grown oyster mushrooms - it does work great.  With the first flush, I was uncertain when to harvest and I left them a little longer.  I wasn't successful extending the harvests once the original substrate was spent.  But overall the whole process yielded a lot of mushrooms - more than we could eat.  I should try this again!

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2022, 01:45:47 PM »
I've grown sweet potatoes, but our growing season is shorter.  I just kept putting stray vines back on the raised bed.  I think they would need a trellis and a lot of encouragement to climb.

My best yields have come from beds that were rich but not too rich. The one year I had really fertile soil I got lots of flowers (giant morning glories) and smaller tubers.

Anette

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2022, 10:03:30 PM »
I have decided to concentrate my efforts on the things that worked best last year.
Which were zucchini, strawberry, tomato, radishes, potato, sunflower, coriander and peas.

I watched a lot of Charles Dowding last spring and was to late for a lot of things and others didn't work as well: My pumpkin never produced anything, I could have started more peas at intervalls, never got call plants started, onions didn't get anywhere, Spanish peppers were late and few for the effort and the Wiley growing salad was a spicy (mustardy variety that you could only mix a bit at a time into meals while the other salads were slow and full of snails.

Oh I will  sow (this year probably direct)  nasturtiums. They seem very easy and abundant here and just love them (have done so ever since visiting Monets Garden about 25 years ago). I did harvest a lot of seeds for that purpose, also have lots of sunflower seeds.
My strawberries produced a lot of offshoot but I never got around to planting any of it. Do I have to just cut the off and compost them now?

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2022, 05:57:49 AM »
I have decided to concentrate my efforts on the things that worked best last year.
Which were zucchini, strawberry, tomato, radishes, potato, sunflower, coriander and peas.

Plant other things you want, too.  For me, last summer some things that did well the year before did very poorly for me.  Each year is different, the temperatures are different, the rainfall is different, the diseases and pests can be different.

Of course some things we want to grow for us just won't grow in our conditions and you are right, there is no point in growing them.  The gardener beside me at our community plots is a new gardener - she had corn seed from the Cayman Islands.  It was spectacular, at least 12' tall where ours is 5-8' tall, but the cobs only showed up late August and she never got a crop.  Less spectacularly, I grow broccoli but not cauliflower, broccoli likes my conditions and cauliflower doesn't.


herbgeek

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2022, 12:32:09 PM »
I'm in the northeast Zone 5 so way too early to really be planting however I do utilize winter sowing to start many of my perennials.  The short version is you sow seeds in gallon milk jugs that are cut in half, duct tape them back up and leave them out in the snow for the winter with the cap off.  In the spring, they germinate.  Its a great way to get my hands in the dirt off season, and keeps the greenhouse free for seeds that need to be started there.

Anette

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2022, 10:20:52 PM »
I have decided to concentrate my efforts on the things that worked best last year.
Which were zucchini, strawberry, tomato, radishes, potato, sunflower, coriander and peas.

Plant other things you want, too.  For me, last summer some things that did well the year before did very poorly for me.  Each year is different, the temperatures are different, the rainfall is different, the diseases and pests can be different.

Of course some things we want to grow for us just won't grow in our conditions and you are right, there is no point in growing them.  The gardener beside me at our community plots is a new gardener - she had corn seed from the Cayman Islands.  It was spectacular, at least 12' tall where ours is 5-8' tall, but the cobs only showed up late August and she never got a crop.  Less spectacularly, I grow broccoli but not cauliflower, broccoli likes my conditions and cauliflower doesn't.

Thank you RetiredAt63 I hadn't thought of that.
The garden threads on this forum seem to help me spend rather than safe money. I ended up spending hundreds of € last year building raised beds, redoing part of our garden and buying plants for it and buying compost and seeds.
Reading allll the new posts has led .me to order some Demeter seeds and I followed the advice (wasn't hard to get carried away) and ordered seeds for salads, beans and physallis (ground cherry) as well. 12 types of seeds for 40€ including shipping isn't bad though and aside from more compost should get me through the season if I manage to stay away from garden stores and farmers markets....

gaja

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2022, 11:13:39 AM »
I have a lot of seeds left over from last year, saved seeds from some of my plants, and found a couple of end of season sales last autumn. So there is no reason for me to buy more seeds. Could still happen if I don't manage to stay out of plant stores, though...

The fridge and basement are full of seeds that need stratifying. I still have a pile of those to do, mainly nuts but also some alliums. Next week should be mild and rainy, so maybe I'll be able to get some of them planted directly in the ground. Got the leeks and onions sown indoors, and will do celery, artichokes, and aubergines next. The rest should probably wait until february.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2022, 01:29:40 PM »
I have decided to concentrate my efforts on the things that worked best last year.
Which were zucchini, strawberry, tomato, radishes, potato, sunflower, coriander and peas.

Plant other things you want, too.  For me, last summer some things that did well the year before did very poorly for me.  Each year is different, the temperatures are different, the rainfall is different, the diseases and pests can be different.

Of course some things we want to grow for us just won't grow in our conditions and you are right, there is no point in growing them.  The gardener beside me at our community plots is a new gardener - she had corn seed from the Cayman Islands.  It was spectacular, at least 12' tall where ours is 5-8' tall, but the cobs only showed up late August and she never got a crop.  Less spectacularly, I grow broccoli but not cauliflower, broccoli likes my conditions and cauliflower doesn't.

Thank you RetiredAt63 I hadn't thought of that.
The garden threads on this forum seem to help me spend rather than safe money. I ended up spending hundreds of € last year building raised beds, redoing part of our garden and buying plants for it and buying compost and seeds.
Reading all the new posts has led .me to order some Demeter seeds and I followed the advice (wasn't hard to get carried away) and ordered seeds for salads, beans and physallis (ground cherry) as well. 12 types of seeds for 40€ including shipping isn't bad though and aside from more compost should get me through the season if I manage to stay away from garden stores and farmers markets....

Um, do we need a new thread in here on how to garden frugally?   ;-)

The first year or 2 tends to be most expensive, because you are buying tools and perennials. 

Ways to save:
 - At the nursery, go for smaller plants (perennials) - they will settle into your garden as well as or better than the larger plants.
 
 - Climate - buy plants and seeds that are adapted for your area.  Example, I live in in a short growing season area.  I will never buy anything that needs a long growing season to ripen.  I will never buy anything that isn't happy with long summer days.   Perennials have to be not only hardy enough for my winters, but the flower buds have to be hardy for my winters.  Conversely, there are varieties  (I'm thinking apples) that will bud at the first warm spring day because they don't need a lot of chilling, and of course then they get blasted because winter is not over yet.

 - Plants versus seeds - learn which seeds do fine being direct sown, and don't waste your energy starting them ahead, or buying starts.  For things that need the head start, learn to grow them yourself instead of buying them.  Of course this assumes you have the space - and again the first year will be more costly because you have to buy some equipment.  This is a great place to repurpose - for example, I use milk cartons to grow my tomatoes on.  Learn to store seeds so that last year's seeds are still good.  Tomato seeds keep at least 5 years.  Buy open pollinated seeds so you can save your own seeds.

 - Join a garden club, especially one that is oriented to what you are growing.  You learn lots, and may be able to get plants/seeds from other members.  You know they grow in your area.

 - Accept the fact that no matter how long you garden, there will always be surprises and you will always be learning and trying new things.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2022, 04:34:51 AM »
Joining this thread. I have relatively big plans for this year. Apart from my chili plants, my lovage and 2 years ago squash plants, all the rest is new to me.

At home:
Only pot plants, as we may not change the grass field of the rental home. Mild climate, but sometimes hard wind. Can be dry for months in the summer. We will often go away for a few weeks at the time.

- Garlic, Valdres (Norwegian heirloom). Planted feds in autumn last year, into pots. Because of too few pots available, I put 2 feds per pot. They are spending the winter outside and will stay there. When I checked in autumn, they had grown lots of roots, but not any green stilk. So far so good.

- Tomato, Snegirjok. Ordered seeds of a Russian microbush (determinate). I hope it tolerates the climate well. It will stand outside as soon as it is warm enough and not freezing at night. Planning to grow 2 plants. I will make big pots from a large bucket. Planning to grow it together with some herbs that support it, like basil.

- Chili pepper. Edit: by others confirmed as cayenne. I have 2 plants from last year that are spending the winter inside. Seem to thrive on the heated floor in front of a corner window, as they have gotten new chilies. I have ordered seeds for a new type, called Brazilian Starfish. Planning to grow 2 plants of that one. I will add tagetes flowers to all the chili pots, which is supposed to be beneficial. Will move outside when it is warm enough.

- Squash/Zucchini. I grew this 2 years ago and it worked well. This year, right after I planted it put in a large crate outside, it was very windy and the plants knacked and did not recover. I have more seeds left, so I will try again, 1 or 2 plants.

- Grape vines. DH still has his grapes. They are spending the winter inside, as they last winter broke when the crate they stood in got ice inside it and ruined the roots. Some of them have recovered inside.

- Kaffir lime. I tried to grow plants from the seeds from fresh kaffir lime, but they seem to have failed. Maybe I should leave the citrus fruit for now. Maybe buy a kaffir lime plant later if it is ever for sale again.

- Lovage (lřpstikke). Grew this last year from seed and they grew like a dream. I kept only 3 plants. I plan to move 1 to the cabin, to make room for the squash.

At cabin:
First time I will try to make a garden there. Very harsh climate at 650 meter above sea level and inland climate. I will add a layer of new soil. The ground there is sandy, very low on nutrician and peaty.
I will not be there too often, but I expect once per month. I have chosen vegetables that you can pick also a bit later, I hope.

- Kale, Wesland Winter. I bought seeds of a kale that tolerates cold and tastes better after freezing.

- Red beetroot, detroit 2. From seed. Also a type that can tolerate harsh climate, hopefully.

- Peas, Norli. Seeds for a small bush, so that it doesn't block sunlight.

- Beans, Royal Burgundy. Seeds for a small bush, so that it doesn't block sunlight.

- Sellery, Prinz. Also from seed.

- Carrot, London Torg. Seeds for winter carrot.

- Herbs. Lots of herbs that are benefical for the kale and carrots. Planting together with the vegetables:
   - Rosmary
   - Sage
   - Peppermint. I will keep the mint in a pot, bacause it will otherwise take over the whole bed.
   - Thyme for sandy and low nutricious ground
   - Chives, Siberian type.
   - Tarragon (esdragon), Russian type.

- Strawberries. They were planted there 2 years ago to keep them alive, until we move to a new owned house with own garden. If they don't survive, it is not critical. There is also another berry bush, surving only. And some more grape vines.

- Ribes. Also only standing there to survive since 2 years.

- Grape vines. Surviving only, since 2 years.



« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 02:34:21 PM by Linea_Norway »

lhamo

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2022, 08:45:23 AM »

I have a small greenhouse kit that's still in a box in the garage. I doubt I'll build it in time for this spring, but hopefully before next year.

Highly recommend you try to get this up if you can at all.

I have a tiny three-shelf plastic cover greenhouse that I got for around $50 last year.  I bought one heat mat and used that to germinate things on the bottom shelf.  No grow lights -- I put it in a protected place on my upstairs deck that gets several hours of sunlight a day.  As things germinate I move them up to the higher shelves -- they stay warm and it is a way of slowly hardening them off.  Next step is to move them to a cold frame we built out of a recycled window and some other scrap lumber.  Eventually they graduate to being in the air on the deck, and then I plant out as they can handle it.

Only a few things got too leggy with this approach.  This year I am going to focus more on succession planting of the late winter/early spring greens so that we have  more consistent food to harvest through the season.  I will NOT plant out 50+ tomato plants this year --I may start that many, but will give the excess away.  I really want to go nuts with peppers this year.  And more flowers.  We don't eat everything I grow so I might as well grow more things that I enjoy looking at.

Anette

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2022, 08:16:33 PM »
@RetiredAt63 Thank you for the great advice!

My  seeds should arrive today and I am excited about that far more than about the paper I need to write. Gardening can be such a great distraction even in winter.

@Ihamo Succession planting is going to be my focus as well after having sorted out the things that don't seem to work so well or seem a lot of work for little reward.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2022, 01:38:16 AM »
@RetiredAt63
"Buy open pollinated seeds so you can save your own seeds."

What do you mean by buying open pollinated seeds?

When I have my bigger garden, I am planning to join Kvann, a Norwegian seedsaver organization. The members there share seeds and try to breed robust heirloom species that tolerate the climate.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2022, 07:02:58 AM »
@RetiredAt63
"Buy open pollinated seeds so you can save your own seeds."

What do you mean by buying open pollinated seeds?

When I have my bigger garden, I am planning to join Kvann, a Norwegian seedsaver organization. The members there share seeds and try to breed robust heirloom species that tolerate the climate.

This is general, and for anyone, not just you.

It is easier to start with hybrids.  Hybrids are made when 2 very inbred strains are crossed.  The offspring, called F1 (1st filial generation in genetics) are heterozygous at many gene sites (heterozygous means a gene at one point on a chromosome from one parent isn't the same as the matching gene from another parent).  If you cross the F1 with itself the F2 (2nd filial generation) is going to be a mix of all those genes, and wildly variable.  Think of dogs - golden doodles are very popular, they are a cross between a golden retriever (well defined breed) and a poodle (another well defined breed).  But golden doodles don't breed true.  Doberman pinschers are a "made" breed, Mr. Doberman crossed other breeds and did a lot of careful breeding to get a dog that bred true and had the characteristics that he wanted.

Open pollinated means that pollination was within that variety. They will be all over the place, possibly, for things that don't matter to you the gardener, and consistent for the things that do matter.  The kicker is that lots of our garden plants will cross-pollinate on their own if circumstances are right, and then we may not be happy with the results. For example, summer squash and some winter squash are all the same species (Cucurbita pepo) and so gardeners have to hand pollinate them to get seeds that won't be a wild mix of features. 

Seed saver organizations are automatically growing open pollinated seeds.  The thing is that the variety will be true when you buy it, but if you are not careful you will not get true seed in the next generation.  Fortunately seeds that we are most likely to save (tomatoes, peas, beans) come from mostly self-fertilizing flowers and most will be like the parents.  Squash have nice big flowers and there are lots of videos online to show how to manage their pollination.  And plants from heirloom seeds have survived many generations of growing in the conditions that the organization lives in.

This is not to say that hybrids are bad - they can be bred for all sorts of good qualities like disease resistance, adaptability to varying climates, colour, shape, taste, etc.  They may be adapted to greenhouse growing.  But they will not produce seed that will make more plants like them.  And some are really oriented to commercial growers.

Buying from a catalogue - the catalogues will say if the seed is open pollinated (OP) or may call something an heirloom (= OP).  Hybrids will be identified as hybrids or F1.

Beginning gardeners should choose plants that sound like something they want to eat, and is easy to grow relative to other varieties.  Same for gardeners in a new growing situation.  Then start your own seeds for varieties that need to be started early - really beginning gardeners will often buy plants at a nursery, that is another story).  But if you are not at the point of wanting to save your own seeds then OP or F1 isn't that important, what is important is to make sure your seeds are for home gardeners (we pay a lot more attention to taste) and not market gardeners* (who may want the whole planting to ripen at once to take to market - do we want that?  usually no).

I could go on and on about this, but will stop here.   ;-)



*Example, I saw a tomato variety that sounded really nice, F1, and it did terribly last year for me.  Hard to germinate (all my other tomatoes did fine), weak seedlings (all my other tomatoes did fine), weak in the garden (most of my other tomatoes were fine, a few other experimentals were also pathetic) and I got 2 tomatoes the whole season.  Guess what I am not growing again?

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2022, 07:59:54 AM »
I have a few F1 - Tomatoes that I use year over year in a small garden for a food pantry.  Because it is small, crop rotation is not really possible.  Because it is for a food charity - a good harvest is really really important.  Mountain Merit and Mountain Spring are highly disease resistant and taste OK.  And if we can keep the squirrels at bay - they are productive. 

For my own garden, I use OP and F1 hybrids, depending on ....  well ..... whim TBH.  Last year I tested a number of new F1 tomatoes -cherries and paste and was somewhat disappointed.  This year I am going back to a couple of OP paste and trialing one more F1.  All the new cherry tomato seeds are going to be OP.  I didn't sow all the seed last year so I will have a huge variety of plants. 

I also saved seed from a few OP tomatoes that I got from others and grew myself.  It is very important to remember what you grew from - two years ago I got a number of plants that had tiny sickly yellow bitter fruit on vines that were 7-12 feet long.  They were insane. 

Squash are extremely promiscuous.  Apparently they can be cross pollinated up to a kilometer between plants.  I thought I was growing delicata squash this year and got a cross between a pumpkin and delicata that tasted like a bitter turnip.  Fortunately I was suspicious (after the marrow/spaghetti fiasco in 2020) and planted some seed house delicata as well. 

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2022, 09:07:21 AM »
Squash are extremely promiscuous.  Apparently they can be cross pollinated up to a kilometer between plants.  I thought I was growing delicata squash this year and got a cross between a pumpkin and delicata that tasted like a bitter turnip.  Fortunately I was suspicious (after the marrow/spaghetti fiasco in 2020) and planted some seed house delicata as well.

I didn't realize this until AFTER I saved and started a bunch of squash seeds from my own garden -- I had grown two different squash varieties the previous year (Waltham butternet and Bitterroot Buttercup) and one pumpkin.  Several of the fruits I got this year seemed to be weird cross pollinations.  This year the seeds of my latest crop of squash and pumpkins will become snacks and I will start with fresh seeds.

One thing I like about saving my own seed is that I know that variety does well in my microclimate.  I like growing things I don't have to struggle with.  Bloomsdale spinach is supposed to be a great variety but I cannot seem to get it to grow.  I'm going to try another variety this year but if it doesn't take then I'm not attempting spinach anymore!

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2022, 09:37:36 AM »
I, too, can't get great crops of spinach for the life of me.  I did get a good germination of Red Kitten in the early spring in the greenhouse, but I only planted a little as I didn't want to give over a lot of space for a risky crop for me.  Slugs are abundant in the in-ground beds.  This spring I will be covering the soil with crushed egg shells. 

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2022, 10:42:48 AM »
Squash are extremely promiscuous.  Apparently they can be cross pollinated up to a kilometer between plants.  I thought I was growing delicata squash this year and got a cross between a pumpkin and delicata that tasted like a bitter turnip.  Fortunately I was suspicious (after the marrow/spaghetti fiasco in 2020) and planted some seed house delicata as well.

I didn't realize this until AFTER I saved and started a bunch of squash seeds from my own garden -- I had grown two different squash varieties the previous year (Waltham butternet and Bitterroot Buttercup) and one pumpkin.  Several of the fruits I got this year seemed to be weird cross pollinations.  This year the seeds of my latest crop of squash and pumpkins will become snacks and I will start with fresh seeds.

OMG yes. this year I had a bunch of volunteer squash, and they were all weird hybrids of (I think) pumpkins and tiger pumpkins. Strange as all get out.

One thing I like about saving my own seed is that I know that variety does well in my microclimate.  I like growing things I don't have to struggle with.  Bloomsdale spinach is supposed to be a great variety but I cannot seem to get it to grow.  I'm going to try another variety this year but if it doesn't take then I'm not attempting spinach anymore!

yes! I allowed a few volunteers to come up this year, and they ended up being some strange cross between a pumpkin and a tiger pumpkin. wierd little buggers.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2022, 11:13:01 AM »
Squash are bee pollinated.  Honeybees will do it, but squash bees do it better.  And of course bees travel.   ;-)  Gardening in a garden that is 30 minutes from home, I don't expect to ever save my own squash seed.  Tape the almost open blooms the evening before and then be in the garden early the next morning to do the pollination - not happening.  I do know how to hand pollinate, one summer job as a student was working at the Experimental Farm in Ottawa.  Very seasonal - apples, strawberries, raspberries, back to apples for harvest.  First job was pollinating apples, whose flowers are a lot smaller than squash flowers!  And of course the trees in full flower where we were working were also hosting masses of bees.

Two summers ago there were two large Roma type tomatoes in my box of store-bought Roma tomatoes.  I saved their seed, and grew 2 last year.  Still bush, still Roma type, still twice the size of Roma.  I'm not growing Roma this year, only these, for sauce.  Half the processing work. I'm guessing they are a known variety, but I have no idea what it is. I have lots of seed if anyone wants some.

I've also grown some of the tomato heirlooms, and now understand why breeders bred out those pretty ribs.  There is just too much waste.  I'll grow heirlooms or other OPs that are smooth.

Last summer all my cherry tomatoes cracked.  I will grow a few of those this year, but I will also be scouring the catalogues for OP cherry tomatoes that don't crack.  I know the skins will be tougher, sadly.  Also, even though it was an adequate growing season, my Indigo Rose tomatoes that were prolific and ripened well in the summer of 2020 had low yields and matured slowly last year.

So every year is an adventure. 

Linea_Norway

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2022, 11:48:00 AM »
I handpollinated my zucchini 2 summers ago. And some flowers got pollinated by an insect when I wasn't home. My issue is that I only had 1 plant. To avoid self pollination, the zucchini grows it's male flowers at a different time than it's female flowers, days apart. I guessed the insects wouldn't be able to visit both gender flowers at the same time. Therefore I collected male stamen (correct word?), kept it a few days in the fridge and smeared it over a female flower a few days later. That worked well.

This cross pollination sounds complicated. I think the best thing is to get cross pollination of different individuals within the same species (and variety). So I plan to stick to one variety of species at the time for the moment.

Although I am already breaking that rule, as I bought seeds for a second chili plant. Then I should not put it directly beside the other chilis. I used to help them selfpollinate last summer by ticking against the plants. Maybe chilis are not the worst problem as they easily selfpollinate within the same flower.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 12:20:40 PM by Linea_Norway »

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2022, 03:48:05 PM »
I failed in my "no more seed shopping" goal. DD is taking an interest in farming, and wants to grow popcorn. I showed her the glass gem corns, and she fell in love. So I ordered a few packs from https://www.allianceofnativeseedkeepers.com/product-page/cherokee-glass-gem-corn

But now - now it is enough. Now I won't buy any more seeds for this season. Promise!

Used some of my plastic egg cartons to stratify some smaller seeds in the fridge; meum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meum_athamanticum), aquilegia, and a few alliums (A. oleraceum and A. fistulosum). We are expecting 20 cm of rain in the next 48 hours (the extreme weather called Gyda), so I'll hold off planting anything outdoors until after that. The rain and heat (up to +10 C) should melt the frost in the ground, making it possible to stratify some seeds in the ground.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2022, 12:46:36 AM »
I failed in my "no more seed shopping" goal. DD is taking an interest in farming, and wants to grow popcorn. I showed her the glass gem corns, and she fell in love. So I ordered a few packs from https://www.allianceofnativeseedkeepers.com/product-page/cherokee-glass-gem-corn

But now - now it is enough. Now I won't buy any more seeds for this season. Promise!

Used some of my plastic egg cartons to stratify some smaller seeds in the fridge; meum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meum_athamanticum), aquilegia, and a few alliums (A. oleraceum and A. fistulosum). We are expecting 20 cm of rain in the next 48 hours (the extreme weather called Gyda), so I'll hold off planting anything outdoors until after that. The rain and heat (up to +10 C) should melt the frost in the ground, making it possible to stratify some seeds in the ground.

We used to have meum in the garden of our first house, planted by the previous owner. It smelled really aromatic and we used it in salads.

Nice that your daughter wants to grow something. Glass-gem corn is interesting and pretty.

I my study of plant companions last week, I read you can use corn as a growing pole for cucumber.  Maybe you can teach your daughter about companion plants, like the Inca used to have with corn, beans and squash, the 3 sisters.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2022, 02:52:48 PM »
My FIL told us that growing your own vegetables is a hobby, not something you save money with. MIL used to have a vegetable garden for years, so he speaks from experience. MIL was a person who loved to find good deals.

Do you share this idea that growing yourself doesn't save money?

Or is growing vegetables a frugal hobby? Or can it be if you don't go beserk?

There are of course initial costs for equipment, plus yearly costs in ordering seeds, if you don't collect them otherwise. But if you grow your own compost? So far, I often need to buy a sack or 2 of fresh soil for seedlings.

For our cabin we are already looking for a rainbarrel with a proper system for excess water. Also a bit of a cost.

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2022, 03:39:58 PM »
I garden to protect my sanity.  And to eat really good food.  I don't feel I could even buy some of the things I can grow.  For example: last time I found tomatilloes, they were $6 for two pounds. And that was four years ago.  I made vats of salsa verde from the four plants.  (And use sweet banana and chocolate bonnet peppers, cilantro, sweet white onion from my garden)

I am pretty certain that if I was to purchase all the food I grow, it would cost way more than what I spend growing them.
But I have been gardening long enough that it mostly works out well for me.  And I start everything from seed.  And I collect some seed.  And I do trades.
I am very particular about what we eat so we enjoy some of the more expensive types of veg.  I grew great leeks this year. Three leeks at the market were $4.  I was putting five or six in a batch of soup without worrying.
I do process most of what I grow so our winter purchasing is also really low. I haven't bought potatoes, garlic, onions, shallots, squash, beans, salsa, tinned tomatoes, sun dried tomatoes, hot peppers, pickles, relish, basil, mint, rosemary or many other herbs yet this winter because the pantry/freezer/root cellar is still providing a large part of our groceries.  Last night we popped our first home grown popcorn. 

I donate a lot of surplus food to a food pantry. This brings me joy.

Last year I started harvesting greens in April, about six weeks before last frost. Being able to pick some fresh kale, spinach, buttercrunch lettuce or arugula every three-four days from April to the end of October is a huge money saver.  But in reality; I wouldn't have bought those greens as much as we were eating them because they were there.  It would have been too much sticker shock at the market.

It will probably take a bit longer to see a return on the investment I made with heat mats and grow lights, timers, etc.  This year I will be growing a flat of eggplants for the new Canadian families who are starting to grow their own food in a community allotment garden in the least privileged area of town.  I will also share tomatoes, basil and pepper plants as I can with these folks who don't have big houses with space for grow lights and money to buy seeds and soil and pots.

But in the mean time, I am feeding my family really nutritious and delicious food. 

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2022, 03:43:54 PM »
I garden to protect my sanity.  And to eat really good food.  I don't feel I could even buy some of the things I can grow.  For example: last time I found tomatilloes, they were $6 for two pounds. And that was four years ago.  I made vats of salsa verde from the four plants.  (And use sweet banana and chocolate bonnet peppers, cilantro, sweet white onion from my garden)

I am pretty certain that if I was to purchase all the food I grow, it would cost way more than what I spend growing them.
But I have been gardening long enough that it mostly works out well for me.  And I start everything from seed.  And I collect some seed.  And I do trades.
I am very particular about what we eat so we enjoy some of the more expensive types of veg.  I grew great leeks this year. Three leeks at the market were $4.  I was putting five or six in a batch of soup without worrying.
I do process most of what I grow so our winter purchasing is also really low. I haven't bought potatoes, garlic, onions, shallots, squash, beans, salsa, tinned tomatoes, sun dried tomatoes, hot peppers, pickles, relish, basil, mint, rosemary or many other herbs yet this winter because the pantry/freezer/root cellar is still providing a large part of our groceries.  Last night we popped our first home grown popcorn. 

I donate a lot of surplus food to a food pantry. This brings me joy.

Last year I started harvesting greens in April, about six weeks before last frost. Being able to pick some fresh kale, spinach, buttercrunch lettuce or arugula every three-four days from April to the end of October is a huge money saver.  But in reality; I wouldn't have bought those greens as much as we were eating them because they were there.  It would have been too much sticker shock at the market.

It will probably take a bit longer to see a return on the investment I made with heat mats and grow lights, timers, etc.  This year I will be growing a flat of eggplants for the new Canadian families who are starting to grow their own food in a community allotment garden in the least privileged area of town.  I will also share tomatoes, basil and pepper plants as I can with these folks who don't have big houses with space for grow lights and money to buy seeds and soil and pots.

But in the mean time, I am feeding my family really nutritious and delicious food.

I’m with you, @Frugal Lizard. I garden because I would have to pay so much more for the crazy amount of leeks, kale, chard, and fancy tomatoes that we eat in our house. There is a lot to learn, too, and I have enjoyed the learning curve, and trying new challenges. There is also something pretty awesome about making a meal entirely from your yard.

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2022, 04:09:54 PM »
My seeds have arrived!

I should have ordered later as I am still to write that paper...But a few things can be started now ...

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2022, 06:55:23 PM »
I like growing things that taste better fresh from the garden, things that are incredibly expensive if grown organically (think dirty dozen), herbs I can dry that don't have insect parts in them, and really being in the garden is my main summer recreation (and exercise).

Part of keeping costs down is knowing what equipment you will use and what is not really useful for your situation.  Pretty much like the baby things discussions, lots of gear you can have but do you need it?  And everyone's needs are different.  And yes the first few years are an investment.  Someone only growing a few plants isn't going to go with Frugal Lizard's setup, but for her it is a long-term investment that will pay off.

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2022, 07:32:28 PM »
Cause they are so pretty....

Linea_Norway

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2022, 02:07:33 AM »
My goal this year is having fun and learning. And getting something to eat from the garden. I have equipment and routines for drying plants or pickling or fermenting them. Some of the stuff I am trying to grow are more expensive veggies like kale amd root sellery. The carrots won't pay off, but hopefully the taste better. And all the herb plants should pay off growing myself from seed,

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2022, 10:44:44 AM »
I think I lose money every other year. Mostly I love growing things from seed, which is cheap, since I already own lots of pots. Over the last 6 years, I lived in an apartment, so grew things in pots on my back stairs (admittedly taking over more and more space each year). But, my partner's parents have a large garden that they let me use. But also, they lived a good 30 minute drive away, so each year I reminded myself that it was a pain in the butt to grow things at their place, and that I never got there often enough to weed or water, and it was always frustrating how much squirrels and groundhogs would eat.

So every other year, I would listen to myself and plant only surplus things that I'd grown, not caring whether they produced or not. And in the off years, I would ignore my own good advice, buy plenty of nursery-grown plants, and then see those plants destroyed or withered. Bah. THIS YEAR (I tell myself every year), I am going to do well!

And who knows, this year maybe I will!

Now that we bought a house, we live only a few blocks from his parents. Almost every day, our dog tries to herd us in their direction (free biscuits for him!), so maybe we'll go there often enough to weed and water and frustrate the animal life. Maybe I should start lots of things from seed and see how it goes, and maybe since my partner agreed not to pull out the prairie that is our backyard yet, I can grow all the things that I want?? Exciting!

Man, I need to wait longer to start seeds. But looking at Frugal Lizard's set up really makes me want to start now.

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2022, 10:54:02 AM »
Hey folks - I can't start growing things just yet - too many weeks until last frost.  (May 13 according to the almanac) But soon I will sowing peppers.
I am scratching the itch with sprouting.  I have batches of mung bean, alfalfa seeds and a broccoli mix with some kick to it. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2022, 05:17:53 PM »
Hey folks - I can't start growing things just yet - too many weeks until last frost.  (May 13 according to the almanac) But soon I will sowing peppers.
I am scratching the itch with sprouting.  I have batches of mung bean, alfalfa seeds and a broccoli mix with some kick to it.

I started some garlic chives since I had seed from the balcony plant.  They are up, little green threads.  I want to start a few peppers to be windowsill plants and then balcony plants.  I already have dwarf cherry tomato plants and basil plants from the grocery store on the window sill.  My apartment has lovely deep window sills.

The rest will wait.  Oh, I suppose I should start a few onion seeds just to see if they are still viable.  If not I need to order.  Between saving seeds and only using parts of packets there are very few seeds I need to order this year.

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2022, 08:02:21 AM »
I have sown my pepper seeds today. 1 Row of chili pepper from a seeds company for hobby growing. And 2 rows or seeds taken from peppers from the grocery store, 1 normal red pepper, amd 1 green padron pepper. I have totally no faith in the latter. And I have my doubts about the red pepper as well.

Someone mentioned recently (here or somewhere on fb or youtube) that growing plants from commercial plants, or seeds for commercial use, usually don't end up well for private use outside. Those plants are oftest developed for greenhouse development and for becoming ready very fast. It is smarter to use seeds for hobby growing and for the right climate.

My chilis will be growing inside until it is warm enough to move outside in their pot. And I will take them in again in the fall.

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2022, 08:59:03 AM »
@Linea_Norway - I discovered the hard way many of the store bought pepper were F1 hybrids.   The seeds didn't even germinate.   I am going to keep better records of the seed source for everything this year so all the effort in collecting and the growing on is fruitful.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Planting and Growing Your Own - 2022
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2022, 10:11:35 AM »
@Linea_Norway - I discovered the hard way many of the store bought pepper were F1 hybrids.   The seeds didn't even germinate.   I am going to keep better records of the seed source for everything this year so all the effort in collecting and the growing on is fruitful.

My 4th generation peppers came from the grocery store - the name of the variety was on them and I looked them up - OP variety, Shepherd.  I found the original variety (well now it was Super Shepherd) in a seed catalogue last year and grew both my own seed and the catalogue seed - my seed did better.  4 years of selection* for germinating and growing under my conditions.  So even a more commercial seed, if meant for open field production, can turn into a good home variety.

* I start way more seeds than I need - pot up (in small seed-starting pots) more than I need from the seeds that germinated - then repot the best of the small potted plants, then the garden gets the best of the potted plants.  Then I save seeds from the first fully ripe pepper on the first 3 plants to have ripe peppers (and that also have lots more peppers coming along), so I am selecting for vigour under my conditions all the way, and earliness in the plants that get seeds saved.