Author Topic: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses  (Read 8529 times)

merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 819
Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« on: April 27, 2017, 08:31:51 AM »
I've had a handful of situations pop up where I've felt condescended to in responses to my posts, in ways that I'm pretty sure wouldn't happen if I didn't have a feminine username.

For example, if I disagree with something, the response is "You're still not getting it" and "I know this is really hard to understand". Responses like this are directed at me, and not at others with non-feminine user names who have similar views. (It's worse when you consider that I actually have solid education and professional experience in some of these topics.)

I don't think it quite hits the threshold of Forum Rule #1, but it's not really welcoming or in the spirit I've come to expect here either. My response has been to drop out of those threads and focus on the good ones (which is my response to similar situations in real life), but I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions.

ysette9

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1803
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 08:39:48 AM »
Would you be willing to share some examples so we have context and specifics to discuss?

Personally I almost never look at the usernames when I am reading posts so I am only responding to the content. I can't speak for others though.
"It'll be great!"

soupcxan

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 176
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2017, 08:59:18 AM »
How is someone supposed to know that merula is a feminine name? I would've had no idea what gender that person is.

swick

  • Global Moderator
  • Magnum Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2919
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2017, 09:01:42 AM »
MOD Response:

Merlua - first, thank you for sharing your concerns and asking the questions. We put in a lot of volunteer hours trying to make sure this forum is inclusive and welcoming TO ALL.

If you see something that definitely points to breaking a forum rule, please use the "Report to Mod" If you are noticing patterns of borderline behavior (yes, some people will figure out how far they can push, just because they can) if you can provide examples and PM one of the mods, we can take a look. When we consider complaints we consider overall contributions to the community and how each member contributes to the whole. 

Also, our first forum rule - don't be a jerk - leaves us mods a lot of latitude for dealing with issues.

All that being said, I'm not sure the examples you cite are necessarily sexist. There are a bunch of different communication styles on the forum and a fairly large segment are the analytical, left-brained, facts type. Quite often this comes off as, well, more than a little condescending. 

I don't think disengaging from the threads is the right answer (speaking as a woman) People need to be called on their behaviour and told when something is not acceptable. Who is going to stand up for you (us) if we don't do so ourselves? You have to teach people how to treat you. This goes for everyone.

Compared to many other places on the internet, our forums are fairly supportive. Other members will speak up and have your back if they feel lines are crossed. You have Mod support in these cases as well - but we are not everywhere so reporting really does help us out.

rockstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3303
  • Age: 2013
  • Location: Northeast
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2017, 10:41:47 AM »
How is someone supposed to know that merula is a feminine name? I would've had no idea what gender that person is.

+1

I didn't know that was a name.

Gronnie

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 139
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 11:09:07 AM »
How is someone supposed to know that merula is a feminine name? I would've had no idea what gender that person is.

+1

I didn't know that was a name.

That was my thought too.

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7132
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 01:22:36 PM »
I've had a handful of situations pop up where I've felt condescended to in responses to my posts, in ways that I'm pretty sure wouldn't happen if I didn't have a feminine username.

For example, if I disagree with something, the response is "You're still not getting it" and "I know this is really hard to understand". Responses like this are directed at me, and not at others with non-feminine user names who have similar views. (It's worse when you consider that I actually have solid education and professional experience in some of these topics.)

I don't think it quite hits the threshold of Forum Rule #1, but it's not really welcoming or in the spirit I've come to expect here either. My response has been to drop out of those threads and focus on the good ones (which is my response to similar situations in real life), but I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions.

I suspect the referenced thread is Should I Prioritize my Traditional or Roth?

At the risk of adding insult to [perceived] injury, methinks you doth protest too much.  E.g., would it be better for someone to say "this is really easy - why don't you get it?"
If the referenced thread is the one above, rest assured there are many people of both sexes who "don't get it," and it can indeed be a non-intuitive concept.

Internet discourse has, unfortunately, a very low "bandwidth."  Many things that take days of back-and-forth posts could be resolved in 10 minutes over glasses of participants' favorite beverages.

It is of course up to you whether to continue participating.  It's likely that folks will continue to engage you in discussion should you choose likewise.  Best wishes.

merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 819
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 07:42:12 PM »
Swick: Thank you, I appreciate the analysis and suggestions. The thread MDM linked is the most recent example.

MDM: Yes, your implication that I am either thin-skinned or insincere is insulting.

G-dog

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5766
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 08:13:14 PM »
I'm not sure where MDM said or implied that you are insincere.

Subtle or backhanded comments, which may or may not be intended to be insulting, are hard to deal with. Any one such comment seems so trivial. Thus, as Swick noted, a pattern of behavior is more telling.

Sorry you feel disrespected, but good that you posted so that you have assurance of support when issues arise.


MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7132
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 09:39:58 PM »
MDM: Yes, your implication that I am either thin-skinned or insincere is insulting.
To be clear, there was no implication of insincerity as The lady doth protest too much, methinks - Wikipedia might suggest.

Rather, the intent was indeed to imply The lady’s overdoing it, I think - call it being thin-skinned for lack of a better term.

As ysette9, swick, and G-dog have suggested, if you would like to suggest ways for folks to improve communication styles, you might find a receptive audience.  Examples are always helpful.

If you would like to continue the discussion on the merits of marginal vs. effective withdrawal tax rates for the purposes of traditional vs. Roth decisions, I would be happy to do so in that thread.

merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 819
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2017, 08:26:34 AM »
Personally I almost never look at the usernames when I am reading posts so I am only responding to the content. I can't speak for others though.

I'm sure others do, because in responses I'm typically referred to with feminine pronouns ("In merula's post she mentioned..."), while other posters are referred to in either masculine or neutral terms ("In Exflyboy's post, he mentioned...", "In RandomMember's post, they mentioned..."). They're not wrong, I am female, but as a result I have noticed different treatment. The Roth vs Traditional thread isn't a great example of this, because I'm the only one arguing my POV, but there have been a few others where I identified myself as having 10+ years professional experience with the topic, and responses to me were markedly more condescending than those to posters with neutral or masculine names who were making the same points I was.

How is someone supposed to know that merula is a feminine name? I would've had no idea what gender that person is.

+1

I didn't know that was a name.

That was my thought too.

I think the "ending in A" thing is generally assumed to be feminine in English and Romance languages. I can't think of a masculine or gender-neutral name ending in A. Unless Santa Claus counts?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 08:30:07 AM by merula »

ysette9

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1803
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2017, 09:48:53 AM »
Quote
I suspect the referenced thread is Should I Prioritize my Traditional or Roth?

I read through this whole thread. I didn't spend enough time to delve into the specific technical details being debated, I just got the overall point of a polite disagreement over some very nuanced tax code. Overall my impression was that this was a very polite debate. Are there other examples that better illustrate your concern, merula?

I think text-only written in a medium such as the online forums can be tough because it is tone-deaf. Same issue with text messaging and emails. My experience has been that most people on the forums are polite, respectful, and the mods are decent about keeping us in line when we stray beyond that. I've called people out a couple of times when I think people are unnecessarily rude or downright attacking people instead of their ideas. I think all of us on the forums have that responsibility. This is our playground and I want it to stay a place that I want to return to.
"It'll be great!"

soupcxan

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 176
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 11:00:23 AM »
Personally I almost never look at the usernames when I am reading posts so I am only responding to the content. I can't speak for others though.

I'm sure others do, because in responses I'm typically referred to with feminine pronouns ("In merula's post she mentioned..."), while other posters are referred to in either masculine or neutral terms ("In Exflyboy's post, he mentioned...", "In RandomMember's post, they mentioned..."). They're not wrong, I am female, but as a result I have noticed different treatment. The Roth vs Traditional thread isn't a great example of this, because I'm the only one arguing my POV, but there have been a few others where I identified myself as having 10+ years professional experience with the topic, and responses to me were markedly more condescending than those to posters with neutral or masculine names who were making the same points I was.

How is someone supposed to know that merula is a feminine name? I would've had no idea what gender that person is.

+1

I didn't know that was a name.

That was my thought too.

I think the "ending in A" thing is generally assumed to be feminine in English and Romance languages. I can't think of a masculine or gender-neutral name ending in A. Unless Santa Claus counts?

"Merula" is not a name or even a word that I've ever heard before. It would be like if I saw someone with a user name of some gibberish like "Feuro" or "Gakha" - I would still have no idea what gender they are any more than I know what "Merula" is.

Assuming every name that ends in a is a girl and o is a boy is a pretty ethnocentric point of view. There are plenty of boys names that end in "a" - have you ever heard of this guy named Obama?

merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 819
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 01:49:43 PM »
Assuming every name that ends in a is a girl and o is a boy is a pretty ethnocentric point of view. There are plenty of boys names that end in "a" - have you ever heard of this guy named Obama?

Obama is his last name. Merula is an (albeit obscure) first name.

I understand that it's not a perfect metric, and I'm sure that plenty of people don't assume my gender based on my forum name. What I'm saying is that I have had clear experience that SOME do. ("In merula's post, she says..."). I also have experienced some people treating me differently from others who don't have forum names that can be perceived to be feminine.

Clean Shaven

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 598
  • Location: Wild Wild West
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 02:02:53 PM »
MDM provides some of the most well-thought-out, even-handed posts on this board.  So I don't think he means to insult in his responses.

Further, I wouldn't assume that anyone's posts on an anonymous internet forum actually reflect his/her real name.  (Hint.  My real name is not "Clean Shaven.")

Male names ending in the letter A:
Ezra
Dana
Ira
Bubba
Attila
Indiana
Dakota
Joshua
Luka
Akira (neo-Tokyo is about to explode!)

nickybecky1

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 136
  • Location: PNW
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 02:42:06 PM »
Thanks to Merula for bringing this up, and the mod for some helpful suggestions.

It doesn't really matter whether some people don't see Merula as a feminine name, it's clear that at least some people are ascribing "she" pronouns to Merula. Regardless of how they got the idea that she's a woman, they have that idea and are treating her differently.

I, too, have seen some seemingly sexist things that I think are minor enough I'm not sure how to handle it. Because I agree with what ysette said about our playground, I have wondered about how and when to consider commenting, so I appreciate both the question and the helpful responses.

merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 819
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2017, 03:10:33 PM »
Thank you, nickybecky. You said very clearly what I've been stumbling over.

undercover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 09:18:50 AM »
So you're thinking they're "mansplaining" you? No. Your name doesn't imply female at all. And, as it's already been said, the subject matter is factual meaning it's black and white. People are bound to get annoyed at times if you're not as well-versed in a subject as they are.

I think most people on here are genuinely helpful and want to share their knowledge and rarely do so in any biased way. I also think society in general has trained us to take any small seemingly sexist issue and make a much larger deal out of it than it actually is (not saying this is you at all).
Every solution has a problem

Rubic

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 12:41:09 PM »
For what it's worth, MDM corrected my error in thinking on the same topic
back in 2015.  As soon as I read his reply, it immediately clicked and
I thanked him for taking the time to explain (though somewhat chagrined,
as I do understand the commutative property of multiplication).

johnny847

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3199
    • My Blog
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2017, 01:11:09 PM »
To the extent possible, I read that traditional vs Roth thread without looking at who was saying what (I covered up the left hand side with everyone's usernames). Of course, people's usernames are in the quotes, and I did my best to avoid reading the usernames in those, but that's not always possible.
I then read the thread again without covering up the usernames.

I didn't find anything in that thread to be sexist. And perhaps I missed it, but I did not see anybody refer to you merula as a woman. Nobody ever said a single thing about you. They only ever addressed the claims you were making. It was always about the facts. Well, aside from boarder42 saying it was hard for him/her to wrap his/her head around this concept, but I saw that as an effort to acknowledge this topic is not intuitive, not as an effort to discredit you.

That thread is centered on facts, not opinions. In any discussion like this where not everyone agrees, there have to be moments where somebody tells someone else that they're wrong, whether they explicitly say "you're wrong" or imply that by showing you the math or legalese which proves something else. Being told you're wrong in of itself doesn't mean it's sexist (though it can certainly be done that way - not that I observed that in that thread).


I'm not saying sexist response have never been directed at you in this forum. I haven't read enough threads to confirm or deny that. I just don't think the traditional vs Roth thread is an example of that.

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Bristles
  • *****
  • Posts: 285
  • Location: Canada
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2017, 01:57:07 PM »
As mods, we've put considerable effort into ferreting out the dumber instances of sexist name-calling, poor metaphor choice and what not.  We will continue to do so as the issues are brought up.

In this case, though, I'm looking at a thread where we have players who can be pretty abrasive in general actually being quite polite.  I'm not sure there's anything there we can take action about.

Again, we want to keep this forum as accessible as possible to everyone, so we'll keep our eyes open.

Toque.

Hargrove

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 532
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2017, 10:17:33 PM »
Per the suggestion about "merula," languages that are Latin-based or heavily Latin-influenced often have genders embedded in names. English is a German core (also has genders embedded in nouns, like Latin does), so it's influenced towards that twice, but we don't often think about the meanings anymore. "E" and "A" sounds word-final are strongly associated with name gender. Alexander, Alexandra, Bert, Bertha, Donald, Donna, Ed, Edna, Henry, Henrietta, Justin, Justina, Louis, Louise, Michael, Michaela, Oliver, Olivia, Reggie, Regina, Robert, Roberta, Patrick, Patricia, Stephen, Stephanie, and of course, Victor, Victoria. It's possible to notice this even if you never really spend any time thinking about it.

So I agree with you about "merula" and its possible implication to an English speaker, but a lot of people don't even read names at first. You're on the internet with a forum of folks who are especially interested in boiling down math, engineering, and construction facts. The approach is most often goal-oriented (it's about the problem) rather than team-oriented (it's about the participants), but the high potential to misconstrue condescension there doesn't depend on a feminine forum name.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 10:19:48 PM by Hargrove »

MrMoogle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 952
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Huntsville, AL
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2017, 01:24:03 PM »
Personally, if I ever do this, I would like to be pm'ed about it.

Miss Piggy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 936
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2017, 03:44:17 PM »
If you feel strongly about this, have you considered changing your username to something completely gender-less?

merula

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 819
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2017, 08:06:03 AM »


(To clarify, I don't mean any particular "he", just that assuming things based on gender is a sucky thing to do. Why should I change my name to maybe prevent some people from doing that sucky thing to me when they would just keep doing it to others?)

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
  • Location: Canada
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2017, 10:39:29 AM »


(To clarify, I don't mean any particular "he", just that assuming things based on gender is a sucky thing to do. Why should I change my name to maybe prevent some people from doing that sucky thing to me when they would just keep doing it to others?)

You shouldn't.

But, life isn't fair. It's... ugh, this is going to go down badly... but the - I think it's a 4chan thing? - "tits or GTFO". Where the premise is that, by declaring yourself "a girl" you are asking for special treatment (I do NOT support that - but the simple fact is, the internet is where a whole load of people who have a whole load of prejudices come together to... complain about everything).

Everyone should be treated... ah, again, the language is not good. "Equally" but not equally... you don't treat a physics professor equally when talking about something they know about, right? Innocent until proven guilty, with some level of respect until more is earned or lost, etc. "The same" knowing nothing about you other than your username... which could mean anything (and which is now, clearly, a name).

We have SO MUCH gender embedded in our language, it's damn near impossible to be entirely neutral; the internet is a great place to be "who you are" without the baggage, *assuming* you don't give too much about yourself away (at which point, of course, the pre-judgements come in.. Oh, British? Must like tea... etc).
Lending Loop p2p lending in Canada; $25 bonus after funding $1500

Great Canadian Rebates good extra sign up bonuses on credit cards, among other things

Hargrove

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 532
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2017, 04:27:09 PM »
It's not useful to be "totally equal."

If you ask a guy to help you move and don't ask the woman near him too, are you being sexist? Does it matter?

If a woman asks a guy to help her open a jar, should he just open it or say "you've got this!" encouragingly?

If the women on a playground pull their children away from the guy sitting alone there, are they being sexist? Does the single dad start a fight about it?

A woman walks alone home at night, puts her keys in between her fingers, and crosses the street to avoid passing a guy coming her way. Sexist? Reasonable? Both?

Why should you have to change your name? You don't. Let no one tell you that you should. Why might you? Well, you seem annoyed about the reactions you believe it's generating, and your online handle is under your control, while the internet is not.

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
  • Location: Canada
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2017, 05:32:42 PM »
It's not useful to be "totally equal."

If you ask a guy to help you move and don't ask the woman near him too, are you being sexist? Does it matter? Yes, and yes

If a woman asks a guy to help her open a jar, should he just open it or say "you've got this!" encouragingly? lol

If the women on a playground pull their children away from the guy sitting alone there, are they being sexist? Does the single dad start a fight about it? Yes, and yes

A woman walks alone home at night, puts her keys in between her fingers, and crosses the street to avoid passing a guy coming her way. Sexist? Reasonable? Both? By giving in to fear, you enable it. We need a better society.

Why should you have to change your name? You don't. Let no one tell you that you should. Why might you? Well, you seem annoyed about the reactions you believe it's generating, and your online handle is under your control, while the internet is not.
Lending Loop p2p lending in Canada; $25 bonus after funding $1500

Great Canadian Rebates good extra sign up bonuses on credit cards, among other things

Hargrove

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 532
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2017, 06:00:27 PM »
If the women on a playground pull their children away from the guy sitting alone there, are they being sexist? Does the single dad start a fight about it? Yes, and yes

Ok, from the women's perspective, what if he weren't a single dad? Vigilance and paranoia are sometimes thinly separated. You would be right about it being technically sexist... however, I'm skeptical that starting a fight in that environment and at that moment would be useful. Please don't misunderstand me - fighting to change that stigma has value, but there are effective ways to go about it, and there are ineffective ways.

Quote
A woman walks alone home at night, puts her keys in between her fingers, and crosses the street to avoid passing a guy coming her way. Sexist? Reasonable? Both? By giving in to fear, you enable it. We need a better society.

Again, effective and ineffective. I would never tell a woman not to be mindful walking home alone at night because she was "enabling fear." Improving society should be a big-picture goal with chosen battles. Choosing every battle is a losing strategy in every conflict.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 06:02:57 PM by Hargrove »

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
  • Location: Canada
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2017, 06:44:44 PM »
If the women on a playground pull their children away from the guy sitting alone there, are they being sexist? Does the single dad start a fight about it? Yes, and yes

Ok, from the women's perspective, what if he weren't a single dad? Vigilance and paranoia are sometimes thinly separated. You would be right about it being technically sexist... however, I'm skeptical that starting a fight in that environment and at that moment would be useful. Please don't misunderstand me - fighting to change that stigma has value, but there are effective ways to go about it, and there are ineffective ways.

Quote
A woman walks alone home at night, puts her keys in between her fingers, and crosses the street to avoid passing a guy coming her way. Sexist? Reasonable? Both? By giving in to fear, you enable it. We need a better society.

Again, effective and ineffective. I would never tell a woman not to be mindful walking home alone at night because she was "enabling fear." Improving society should be a big-picture goal with chosen battles. Choosing every battle is a losing strategy in every conflict.

I assumed by "fight" you meant... well.. not an actual fight. I mean, it's up to a person to... not look like a child molester. Right? Easy to say objectively, but... our natural judgements are a massive help (else we wouldn't have evolved - something would've eaten us), but now a massive hinderance.

Walking home alone... hmm isn't there a stat that men are more likely to be robbed?
Lending Loop p2p lending in Canada; $25 bonus after funding $1500

Great Canadian Rebates good extra sign up bonuses on credit cards, among other things

Hargrove

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 532
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2017, 07:25:55 PM »
You can't insist people never be afraid, and you can't typically talk them out of it.

Empathy towards the fears of others, even when they're disagreeable or disadvantageous, is necessary to help them out of those fears, if it's even possible to do so. And managing and overcoming fear is a social good, but it's not easy. Condemning the fearful is easy.

MonkeyJenga

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6637
  • Location: NYC
  • Cake or Death?
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2017, 08:43:56 PM »
Walking home alone... hmm isn't there a stat that men are more likely to be robbed?

When I get nervous walking home alone, it's not because I'm afraid of being robbed.

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2694
  • Location: Canada
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2017, 04:02:57 AM »
You can't insist people never be afraid, and you can't typically talk them out of it.

Empathy towards the fears of others, even when they're disagreeable or disadvantageous, is necessary to help them out of those fears, if it's even possible to do so. And managing and overcoming fear is a social good, but it's not easy. Condemning the fearful is easy.

I don't believe I was condemning anyone!
Lending Loop p2p lending in Canada; $25 bonus after funding $1500

Great Canadian Rebates good extra sign up bonuses on credit cards, among other things

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 26985
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Traveling the World
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2017, 12:37:23 PM »
Everyone should be treated... ah, again, the language is not good. "Equally" but not equally... you don't treat a physics professor equally when talking about something they know about, right?

Yes, you do. The way you should treat them is with respect and dignity, the same thing you should treat any non-Physics professor, too.

Treat everyone equally, with respect and dignity. Everyone deserves that.

This thread, BTW, was super disappointing. I couldn't even read all of it.

To answer the original question: report the assholes.

If they're skirting a line, nothing may be done eventually, but it builds up a case against them, and then we may ban them after repeated behavior. There may also be warnings you don't see, so it looks like nothing is done, when it is.

Please report the misogynist or rude people that are harming our community.

Thanks!
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with a kid.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (occasionally) blog at AdventuringAlong.com.
You can also read my forum "Journal."

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7132
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2017, 12:43:15 PM »
This thread, BTW, was super disappointing. I couldn't even read all of it.
To both sentences: why?

2Birds1Stone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3139
  • Age: 30
  • Location: New York
  • Peter Gibbons
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2017, 01:42:29 PM »
I would have never assumed a gender based on your username.

A lot of things seem to be taken out of context or misunderstood on the internet, if you think someone is being sexist, I would report them.

I'm sure that miscommunication by either the poster or the reader can often be misconstrued. 
"A small house can hold as much happiness as a big one." - Fortune Cookie

29 Months till FI - Stop by, or stay a while.....
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/fire-by-thirty-five-chronicles-36-months-till-sabbatical!/

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 26985
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Traveling the World
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2017, 03:07:58 PM »
This thread, BTW, was super disappointing. I couldn't even read all of it.
To both sentences: why?

I find some views expressed distasteful, and I don't want them in my life.

MonkeyJenga's posts at least helped.

I only glanced at the other IRA thread and didn't see much issue there.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with a kid.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (occasionally) blog at AdventuringAlong.com.
You can also read my forum "Journal."

BTDretire

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1477
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2017, 05:39:13 PM »


(To clarify, I don't mean any particular "he", just that assuming things based on gender is a sucky thing to do. Why should I change my name to maybe prevent some people from doing that sucky thing to me when they would just keep doing it to others?)

 You might also open yourself up to the possibility that you might be reading something into others comments that's not there. Or, maybe I read something in your meme that wasn't intended. :-/

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2017, 09:54:31 AM »
I took the name change suggestion to be an experiment in determining if the treatment you're reacting to is as prevalent towards everyone as you imagine.

There's absolutely no disputing that women are treated differently from men.  Nor can it be disputed that women are treated differently from other women based on various factors.  There's a fascinating book written by a woman who dressed up as an elderly woman and records what happens to her, it has interesting ethical implications regarding experimenting on folks without their knowledge as well.  I can't remember the name of the author because, she's a woman and obviously not important, or because I have a terrible memory for that sort of thing, take your pick.

If you start interacting with the boards as someone with a patently masculine name, I think you'll be surprised at how often your opinions on certain topics are dismissed out hand because of your gender.

If you start interacting with the boards as someone with an elderly name (TheOriginalEsther or somethinglikethat)/young name (bieberhater7), I think you'll be surprised at how often that makes a difference.

But more than anything, I think you'll be surprised at how often you just read into what people write, things that they may not have meant.  As in, no matter what username you post under, certain folks on this board are going to sound misogynistic to you when you read their replies, others will sound misandrist, some will sound ageist and some will sound perfectly reasonable.  There's at least the possibility that some of this is an internal issue related to your interpretations.  That's a personal growth thing you can choose to pursue or not, I'm not the police.

It is difficult to remember that not everyone is carefully wordsmithing everything.  You actually have the feelings you have, there's no disputing that.  You read the words someone wrote and it hurt, absolutely true.  It isn't unreasonable to doubt that, in every instance, that harm was a goal or intention of the poster.  Sometimes people just want to finish a post and get back to lunch, hoping that whatever help they were offering was enough.

Everyone is bad at everything.  Your capacity to forgive, relentlessly, earnestly, without being asked, without expecting anything to change, is the only thing that will combat the relentless tide of anguish ported into your PC from the interwebs.  Just think to yourself "I'm so sorry your life experience led you to need to express yourself this way" whenever someone says something so patently stupid/arrogant/selfish/ignorant/etc.  Thank Jeebus for not making you like them.  Report them if it is egregious.
Notice is turned in! 35 days until FIRE!  I am excited and at the same time terrified!

Stahlmann

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2017, 06:10:00 AM »
Are you kidding me?
Do you have too much free time in America, don't you?

How about extra attention points which women tend to receive in the internet and specifically on nicknamed forums?

Where is reimbursement office if I do not receive any of beforementioned extra "help"?
I am suprised that so many people replied to this topic...

Sexism IS only against women, interesting...

Over and out from my side.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 01:12:01 PM by arebelspy »

Sailor Sam

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5870
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2017, 06:30:47 AM »
Are you kidding me?
Do you have too much free time in America, don't you?

How about extra attention points which women tend to receive in the internet and specifically on nicknamed forums?

Where is reimbursement office if I do not receive any of beforementioned extra "help"?
I am suprised that so many people replied to this topic...

Sexism IS only against women, interesting...

Over and out from my side.

Dang, buddy. I'm sorry for your agitation. You appear to be too enraged by internet strangers to actually make sense.

Stahlmann

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2017, 06:35:53 AM »
Are you kidding me?
Do you have too much free time in America, don't you?

How about extra attention points which women tend to receive in the internet and specifically on nicknamed forums?

Where is reimbursement office if I do not receive any of beforementioned extra "help"?
I am suprised that so many people replied to this topic...

Sexism IS only against women, interesting...

Over and out from my side.

Dang, buddy. I'm sorry for your agitation. You appear to be too enraged by internet strangers to actually make sense.

1. Try to ask serious question as a newbie in the male circled forum as a man.
2. Try to ask serious question as a newbie in the male circled forum as a woman.

Post results there.

Interestingly, you focused on my "rage", not the "actual problem". Not so nice from your side.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 06:41:05 AM by Stahlmann »

Sailor Sam

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5870
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2017, 06:39:17 AM »
Are you kidding me?
Do you have too much free time in America, don't you?

How about extra attention points which women tend to receive in the internet and specifically on nicknamed forums?

Where is reimbursement office if I do not receive any of beforementioned extra "help"?
I am suprised that so many people replied to this topic...

Sexism IS only against women, interesting...

Over and out from my side.

Dang, buddy. I'm sorry for your agitation. You appear to be too enraged by internet strangers to actually make sense.

1. Try to ask serious question as a newbie in the male circled forum as a man.
2. Try to ask serious question as a newbie in the male circled forum as a woman.

Post results there.

Already accomplished. As expected, there were some outlying reactions, but most were inside the 95% confidence circle.

Still don't get your point, other than just being angry.

Stahlmann

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2017, 06:46:38 AM »
Are you kidding me?
Do you have too much free time in America, don't you?

How about extra attention points which women tend to receive in the internet and specifically on nicknamed forums?

Where is reimbursement office if I do not receive any of beforementioned extra "help"?
I am suprised that so many people replied to this topic...

Sexism IS only against women, interesting...

Over and out from my side.

Dang, buddy. I'm sorry for your agitation. You appear to be too enraged by internet strangers to actually make sense.

1. Try to ask serious question as a newbie in the male circled forum as a man.
2. Try to ask serious question as a newbie in the male circled forum as a woman.

Post results there.

Already accomplished. As expected, there were some outlying reactions, but most were inside the 95% confidence circle.

Still don't get your point, other than just being angry.

I think that women overall receive too much attention, practically everywhere. It is very visible, especially in the internet. If you do not see that, probably you can be part of the problem...

[MOD NOTE: Whatver.  Goodbye.]

« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 04:08:42 PM by FrugalToque »

Sailor Sam

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5870
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Steel Beach
  • Semper...something
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2017, 06:50:59 AM »
Are you kidding me?
Do you have too much free time in America, don't you?

How about extra attention points which women tend to receive in the internet and specifically on nicknamed forums?

Where is reimbursement office if I do not receive any of beforementioned extra "help"?
I am suprised that so many people replied to this topic...

Sexism IS only against women, interesting...

Over and out from my side.

Dang, buddy. I'm sorry for your agitation. You appear to be too enraged by internet strangers to actually make sense.

1. Try to ask serious question as a newbie in the male circled forum as a man.
2. Try to ask serious question as a newbie in the male circled forum as a woman.

Post results there.

Already accomplished. As expected, there were some outlying reactions, but most were inside the 95% confidence circle.

Still don't get your point, other than just being angry.

I think that women overall receive too much attention, practically everywhere. It is very visible, especially in the internet. If you do not see that, probably you can be part of the problem...

Yes, I will firmly and resolutely register myself as part of the problem.

TVRodriguez

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2017, 10:08:36 AM »
I've had a handful of situations pop up where I've felt condescended to in responses to my posts, in ways that I'm pretty sure wouldn't happen if I didn't have a feminine username.

For example, if I disagree with something, the response is "You're still not getting it" and "I know this is really hard to understand". Responses like this are directed at me, and not at others with non-feminine user names who have similar views. (It's worse when you consider that I actually have solid education and professional experience in some of these topics.)

I don't think it quite hits the threshold of Forum Rule #1, but it's not really welcoming or in the spirit I've come to expect here either. My response has been to drop out of those threads and focus on the good ones (which is my response to similar situations in real life), but I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions.

First, I'd like to say that I don't think you're imagining things.  I also won't ask you to point to specific instances.  You ask for general suggestions on how to deal with them, not for suggestions on how to handle any particular instance.

There are some people who really enjoy showing off to complete strangers how incredibly smart they are.  I generally do not consider those people to be people with whom I need to interact.  I am not going to learn from them.  I doubt they are going to try to improve their behavior or learn from me.  Therefore, I generally ignore them.  If something they write appears to be crossing a line, I would consider stating that in a reply and would consider reporting their statement(s) to a moderator.  If not, I would seek to continue the conversation only with those who show respect and actual knowledge in their communications.

I also generally refrain from asking questions of a general internet audience, personally.  I am happy to share my knowledge if a thread asks questions to which I have answers.  But if I'm looking for information, I tend to google my question and seek to learn from a variety of sources.  Partly because I don't want to rely on the word of an internet stranger (who may be clueless but sound knowledgeable), and partly because I dislike opening myself to criticism.  I'm not saying this is a great strategy.  But I don't want to waste my time.

ICanDiscussPolitely

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2017, 12:58:22 PM »
In this topic I wanted to share that ,,seemingly" is not sufficient to say that something is ,,sexist towards women".
Is disagreeing with women "sexist" in a way that I need to be banned?
How about "misandry"? Have you ever heard about it?

I thought that women are liberated and they can participate in discussions openly.

Unfortunately, they need to use under-table techniques to disregard opponents points of view. Very often based on gender. How sexist is that?


[MOD NOTE: Obvious Troll is obvious.  Re-banned.]
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 07:29:36 AM by FrugalToque »

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Bristles
  • *****
  • Posts: 285
  • Location: Canada
Re: Suggestions for dealing with seemingly sexist responses
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2017, 07:31:33 AM »
Sexism is a problem.  It's a problem in the real world, on the Internet, and in this forum.  Obviously.

Sexism is a problem when people pretend it doesn't exist.  Sexism is a problem when people pretend it "goes both ways" in equal proportion, or when they pretend that "reverse sexism" is a problem worse than sexism.  There are certain glaring, flaming, red flags we can pick up on to spot people who are going to cause problems.  The use of the term "misandry" is one of those red flags.  Declarations that "women get too much attention" and other such things are also red flags.

Frankly, I'm tired of dealing with people derailing threads in order to talk about their favourite pet peeve, whether it be "reverse sexism", American politics, their [least] favourite religion or who is allowed to use what bathroom.  It's happening here constantly and we, the moderators, have been granted a great deal of latitude with the Ban Hammer.

If you're not contributing to discussions focused on early retirement, your derailing will be especially unwelcome.  If you piss us off repeatedly, you will be especially unwelcome simply because you're making our jobs harder while making the newbies feel less welcome.

Mustachianism is for everyone: every gender; every religion; every nationality.  It is a straightforward, practical philosophy which can improve any lifestyle not already a mountaintop, zero-impact hermitage.  Throwing around language that excludes people is not acceptable.

We tolerate everyone except the intolerant.

Toque out.