Author Topic: New subforum for hardcores?  (Read 13559 times)

Zikoris

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2018, 03:42:39 PM »
Well, actually, they're not both okay, because one is objectively wrong. It's objectively wrong to say that we come out ahead financially by living in a co-op, when we in fact objectively come out worse. This is a math equation. If Option A comes with price tag $X and Option B comes with price tag less-than-$X, there's a right and a wrong answer as to what costs more.

I do see what you're saying here. You're saying that you pay more in this nonmarket housing than you might pay elsewhere (which would also disqualify you for the proposed purist subforum, no?).

This is definitely true for many of us. We pay more for any given housing situation than to live in a L'Arche home, for example. It's not crazy to spend some money on housing, but we can acknowledge that we're spending unnecessarily.

It can also be true that we're spending more than actually necessary to have luxury/preferences while also being true that we're getting a skookum deal.

Some of us are saying you pay less for this nonmarket housing than you would for the equivalent in market housing (space, location, amenities, city).

This is how both are correct -different things are being compared. It's always okay for people to explore varying aspects and angles of a matter.

Like so many here, you do a great job with saving and most spending, and seeing the various angles doesn't take away from that.

Well yeah, people who are willing to get gouged are going to end up paying more than people who aren't, whether in terms of housing or anything else. That's practically a law of nature.  But saying things like

Quote
Why are vacations supported if we're one of the lucky few accessing a federally-developed nonmarket housing option, but not if one is among the majority required to pay for market housing? It's wise and smart and lucky to snag nonmarket housing in a high-infrastructure location, but I wouldn't say it makes a person more eligible for accolades than one who hasn't managed to yet, nor one who paid for market housing and saved big and now wants to splurge with a portion.

is as such a massive misrepresentation of our situation, that I can't help but call it out.

Man, heads are going to explode when we eventually move out of the co-op into something cheaper.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2018, 04:09:43 PM »
is as such a massive misrepresentation of our situation, that I can't help but call it out.

Does it need to be considered "about you" or can it be considered more generally, as examples of things anyone might choose?

Or if you wanted it to be about you, could it be recognized as not a misrepresentation but as a genuine and accurate note on the relative savings in nonmarket housing vs market housing in your city?

If we did apply it to you, I'm curious as to which of those words you view as misrepresentative.

Man, heads are going to explode when we eventually move out of the co-op into something cheaper.

Nah, some will applaud your move toward deeper frugality, some will fret about their perceived sense of your reduced quality of life, some will attack your continued vacation spending, and most will just shrug and be happy for you that you're doing what works for you in the next phase of your life too :)

maizeman

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2018, 04:10:01 PM »
I think there is broad agreement that if it really will improve your overall happiness in life (and won't cause you financial distress), it is okay to spend money.

The distinction between the "hardcore" and "softcore" seems to be in the realization that lots and lots of things people spend money on don't actually make them any happier and we've got a major bias towards thinking buying X or spending money on Y will make us happier even when it won't. For most people cable TV probably doesn't actually make then any happier. A $65k camper van probably isn't going to make them happier either.

So it's not a debate about whether or not it's okay to spend money to improve happiness and quality of life. It's that statistically a lot of the people who say they're spending huge amounts of money on X, Y, or Z because it makes them happier or improves their quality of life are wrong.

Optimiser

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2018, 04:19:14 PM »
What is the connection between Zikoris' housing situation and travel spending? They seem like two completely separate issues to me. One being a well optimized necessity and the other being an intentionally purchased luxury.

I think there is broad agreement that if it really will improve your overall happiness in life (and won't cause you financial distress), it is okay to spend money.

The distinction between the "hardcore" and "softcore" seems to be in the realization that lots and lots of things people spend money on don't actually make them any happier and we've got a major bias towards thinking buying X or spending money on Y will make us happier even when it won't. For most people cable TV probably doesn't actually make then any happier. A $65k camper van probably isn't going to make them happier either.

So it's not a debate about whether or not it's okay to spend money to improve happiness and quality of life. It's that statistically a lot of the people who say they're spending huge amounts of money on X, Y, or Z because it makes them happier or improves their quality of life are wrong.

+1

Zikoris

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2018, 04:33:10 PM »
What is the connection between Zikoris' housing situation and travel spending? They seem like two completely separate issues to me. One being a well optimized necessity and the other being an intentionally purchased luxury.

As far as I'm concerned, I spend too damn much on both of them. I'm also too apathetic to do anything about it, since I've only got a few years of work left, at which point everything gets flung in the air and falls down into a completely different pattern anyway.

One of these days I'll figure out some sort of free housing.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 04:35:27 PM by Zikoris »

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2018, 04:43:30 PM »
What is the connection between Zikoris' housing situation and travel spending?

Not a connection between those two, just a question of why we would blast one person for spending on a blender, housing (when free housing exists), or travel, but not another. Or why one spendy person would be considered frugal and another spending the same amount nonfrugal (and eligible or ineligible for a subforum).

It's that statistically a lot of the people who say they're spending huge amounts of money on X, Y, or Z because it makes them happier or improves their quality of life are wrong.

I wasn't sure if you were joking, maizeman... Maybe not?

I think of all the things people told me would make me happy that didn't (travel, sustained home ownership), things they told me would make me sad that in fact made me very happy (quitting high school, spending a month with ex and his family far away), and things they told me wouldn't or can't make me happy that do (Roomba, coffees out, geographical relocations).

For sure sometimes we're wrong about what will make us happy, but I can't imagine that people outside of ourselves would have a better statistical chance of guessing correctly than we would.

We could instead support each other to define our personal values and to assess what might make us happy...even when it's very different than what would the next person would.

maizeman

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2018, 05:18:22 PM »
It's that statistically a lot of the people who say they're spending huge amounts of money on X, Y, or Z because it makes them happier or improves their quality of life are wrong.

I wasn't sure if you were joking, maizeman... Maybe not?

I think of all the things people told me would make me happy that didn't (travel, sustained home ownership), things they told me would make me sad that in fact made me very happy (quitting high school, spending a month with ex and his family far away), and things they told me wouldn't or can't make me happy that do (Roomba, coffees out, geographical relocations).

For sure sometimes we're wrong about what will make us happy, but I can't imagine that people outside of ourselves would have a better statistical chance of guessing correctly than we would.

We could instead support each other to define our personal values and to assess what might make us happy...even when it's very different than what would the next person would.

I'm not.

I agree that I cannot figure out what will make you happy. But if you're (generally, particularly as a hypothetical person posting a case study, not you specifically jooniFLORisploo) living an unexamined life and haven't really thought a lot about what we've learned about the big generally differences between what we think will or won't make us happier and what actually does make us happier, I think it may actually be helpful if I challenge you to reconsider if your response to any proposed change in spending is "no I don't want to do that because having gold plated kitchenware makes me happier on a day to day basis" rather than shrugging and saying "well you know what makes you happy, carry on."

Now after I challenge you, you may still decide that for you gold plated kitchenware makes you happy on a day to day basis. But I think it's worth bringing up that all of us are often wrong about this stuff, particularly if we don't re-examine when our predictions about happiness changes and actual observed happiness changes do or don't line up.

So I'm not saying I can tell you what will make you happier better than you can. I'm saying we can all stand to be reminded how easy it is to make expensive mistakes when it comes to happiness from time to time.

FWIW, a robot vacuum cleaner is on my list of things that make me genuinely happier on an ongoing basis too.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2018, 05:31:38 PM »
Yes, that approach (encouraging each other to take a moment to consider the potential real impact in one's own life, etc) makes full sense to me.

Long live robot vacuums!!!

Freedomin5

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2018, 06:22:53 PM »
Yes, I think being hardcore is more about approach and attitude than a set frugal amount you spend or set list of ďapprovedĒ purchases. It therefore becomes very hard to come up with an operational definition.

Ultimately, I like the previous posters who conceptualise this forum as a place to provide support and to encourage (face punch) others to mindfully consider their purchases, and from a broader framework, to consider what in life makes them truly happy and fulfilled, rather than turning it into a comparison game where you are slotted into ďhardcoreĒ or ďsoftcoreĒ Mustachian categories.

Iíve always thought if Mustachianism as a philosophy for personal financial management rather than a set of rules regarding the size of your apartment, whether you drive or take the bus, how often you vacation, or how many stars your hotel has. I mean, if you can score a 5-Star hotel on a 1-Star budget, Iíd say youíre as Mustachian as someone who pitches a tent in the public park or couchsurfs. In the end, the reason why Iím here is because I like hanging out with a bunch of people who hold a similar financial philosophy to myself. Itís aboit a sense of togetherness (especially because there are already so many people out there who think Iím weird to want to FIRE). Itís not about excluding someone just because they spend more than I do or because I donít agree with some of their purchases.

Zikoris

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2018, 06:55:25 PM »
I agree with you but I think of mustashian and hardcore as 2 different things. Mustashian being more as you described it (and probably what most here strive for) and hardcore taking things to a much more stoic level in order to achieve a goal faster as well as a way to adjust your mindset further away from a consumer culture which may not lead you to greater happiness.

I agree. I think the forums that exist now do great in terms of encouragement, support, etc. But I have the type of personality where encouragement and support do nothing for me, and even seem pointless and silly. I'm way more interested in focusing on stoicism, badassity, unusual or extreme lifestyle options/choices, and anti-consumption.

So... does anyone know who we're supposed to ask?

Zikoris

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2018, 07:11:47 PM »
I agree with you but I think of mustashian and hardcore as 2 different things. Mustashian being more as you described it (and probably what most here strive for) and hardcore taking things to a much more stoic level in order to achieve a goal faster as well as a way to adjust your mindset further away from a consumer culture which may not lead you to greater happiness.

I agree. I think the forums that exist now do great in terms of encouragement, support, etc. But I have the type of personality where encouragement and support do nothing for me, and even seem pointless and silly. I'm way more interested in focusing on stoicism, badassity, unusual or extreme lifestyle options/choices, and anti-consumption.

So... does anyone know who we're supposed to ask?
not sure but probably pm or bat signal one of the mods. However they might not approve another sub thread for various reasons.

Okay, it turns out I only know two moderators. Ahem. @arebelspy ! @FrugalToque ! May we have a Hardcore Hangout subforum?

limeandpepper

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2018, 07:59:27 PM »
She's not just throwing money into a consumer thing or experience because she has the money to throw around with little thought or to fill some non-important want, she rationalized it and finds worth in it.

In that case, having lurked in the infamous blender thread I find that some people in there have also clearly thought it through and found worth in a pricier, more powerful blender and it has ended up really adding to their life, however that didn't stop some posters from roundly deriding everyone who bought such a blender, even those who bought it secondhand. Sooooooooo... if that kind of attitude is what it means to be hardcore I guess that's not me.

P.S. I don't own an expensive blender myself, so I have no skin in the game. But who knows, I can imagine that I might someday decide that something like that would be worth it. I just find the sheer level of disdain displayed in that thread interesting and over-the-top.

brooklynmoney

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2018, 06:56:10 AM »
My blender came to me from my grandmother and appears to be from the 1970s so I assume I will hence automatically qualify for the new hardcore sub forum haha.

ender

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2018, 07:35:42 AM »
I guess another option is most of "us" (I feel like the group of folks posting here used to post a lot more and all of us have stopped posting as much) just stop posting.


joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2018, 07:52:57 AM »
spartana, Iím enjoying your thoughts on what might be considered badass. Iíve been thinking about them since reading your posts last night.

In my world, itís so common for whole families or strangers to share a studio space, or families or individuals to live year round in a van or tent, that anything else seems highly luxurious. While many of these simply have no choice but to live badass, a good number of people in Vancouver are living in a van, car, or tent by choice to hit an excellent saving rate, or sharing and strategically managing a small house with 11 people -including strangers and babies- so they can donate to charitable causes. These seem ERE/purist/badass to me. Voluntarily paying higher-than-necessary shelter costs while living comfortably with only our favourite fellow adult, not so much.

I guess itís relative to whatís around us.

Because itís normal in my world to live (voluntarily or involuntarily) in less conventional circumstances (LíArche, CWH, wild, street, car, shed, 12 ppl in 1100 sq ft), nothing short of that seems badass. It seems luxurious, wildly comfortable.

To me, badass is intentionally getting uncomfortable in order to effect positive outcomes. So, badass will be different for every person and will change all the time (as soon as the latest status quo becomes easy/comfy).

I see badass as (for most ppl) moving into a tent while they go to uni, or living in a van for three years while working full-time to save for their bigger goal. Or getting and staying clean from meth. Or putting themselves aside to parent thoroughly while without external resources. Or taking charge of oneís health through nonpreferred food choices. Or working three jobs to support dependents near or far. Stoicism, yes! Doing the thing that feels too hard.

I think the forum is a helluvalot of truly awesome people, but most of us have relatively soft lives. We live comfortably (even if unconventionally), we do things that are fun for us, we forgo our nonfavourite things and choose our favourite ones. Thatís nice for us, but I donít see a lot of badassity here. Nothing wrong with that, just not badass.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 09:08:27 AM by jooniFLORisploo »

Cassie

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2018, 12:28:15 PM »
I am finding that as I age I want more comforts.  I am 63 and used to rarely watch TV so never had cable. However, Now we prefer to go out and do things during the day and stay home at night.  In the evening we read, play cards and watch TV. At this stage paying for cable is well worth it for both of us when for much of our lives it was not.

DreamFIRE

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2018, 07:31:18 PM »
Because itís normal in my world to live (voluntarily or involuntarily) in less conventional circumstances (LíArche, CWH, wild, street, car, shed, 12 ppl in 1100 sq ft), nothing short of that seems badass. It seems luxurious, wildly comfortable.

Those all seem pretty extreme to me.  I wonder how many people on this forum would qualify based on those criteria.  I'm 1 person living in a 2600 sq. ft. house, over 3000 sq. ft. with the attached garage.  It doesn't really feel luxurious - sometimes I hear outside noises like a mower, a train in the distance, a noisy vehicle, a basketball bouncing, or a dog barking.  Housing related costs are over half my barebones budget.

But I have had a 70% to 80% savings rate for years with a $1300 barebones budget and don't travel.  When I FIRE, I expect to do some travel (not necessarily overseas or by plane.)

maizeman

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2018, 07:37:56 PM »
It doesn't really feel luxurious - sometimes I hear outside noises like a mower, a train in the distance, a noisy vehicle, a basketball bouncing, or a dog barking.

Now I'm the one who cannot tell if someone is joking or not.

So luxury is a house big enough that no sound from the outside world can penetrate to the portion you live in?

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2018, 07:47:58 PM »
They are extreme, yes, but I thought thatís what we were talking about: ERE[xtreme], hardcore, purist, etc.

I agree that few on this forum would qualify. (I sure wouldnít, despite big achievements related to the topic.) Mustachians are pretty softy, hence the goals for massive savings, the pursuit of preferred personal lifestyle, etc. There are lots of hardcore, truly frugal people on the planet, but I think most of them arenít here. Theyíre usually doing their thing pretty quietly.

Your savings rate and budget are great, for sure. I donít know how we could call that much square footage per person nonexcessive, badass, nonluxurious, though. (I mean that space doesnít have to be filled with peonies and bearskin rugs and silence to be luxurious. Rather that space, privacy, fuel, etc, for a space that large is already...a lot...and well beyond necessity.)

Zikoris

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2018, 09:24:49 PM »
If we're going to get nitpicky about who/what does and doesn't count as hardcore, why not just call it "Advanced Mustachianism" or some equivalent instead? The point is to have an area where we can avoid anti-Mustachian consumeristic stuff and endless beginner questions (How do you save money on groceries?). This is turning into a semantics debate. If "hardcore" is somehow an objectionable word, just swap in something else.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2018, 09:50:31 PM »
"Advanced Mustachianism" [...] an area where we can avoid anti-Mustachian consumeristic stuff and endless beginner questions (How do you save money on groceries?).

I like that!!

It still essentially asks people to define "anti-Mustachian consumeristic stuff" (e.g., vacations, what housing is excessive, etc), but overall this title and focus sounds like a solid idea.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2018, 10:04:38 PM »
How about for its subforum description, skipping reference to subjective concepts (hardcore, consumersukka, badass, extreme, etc), through which some people would view themselves very generously, and instead focusing on a timeline or just on skipping the beginners stuff?

e.g., "Have you been hacking your whole life for a couple of years already and have it fairly streamlined? Want ideas for taking your life to the next level?"

What about asking if the forum gods can make it so that only someone who's been an active member for a year can access it? (No spam, no beginners, no blog promos. Though that could inadvertently exclude people who've been doing MMM stuff for years before arriving at the forum.)

limeandpepper

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2018, 10:09:57 PM »
The point is to have an area where we can avoid anti-Mustachian consumeristic stuff and endless beginner questions (How do you save money on groceries?).

Well now we may be getting somewhere. Your original request didn't really go into any detail but if you could give examples about the types of threads one might start in such a subforum (and wouldn't fit into other subforums) then maybe the chances of it getting approved will be higher.

driftwood

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2018, 05:21:02 AM »
If you were really hard-core MMM you wouldn't even be visiting internet forums. You'd be so busy living your frugally-optimized lifestyle you wouldn't have time for bits and bytes and internet opinions. If you have time to read this post you are wasting time you could have spent on getting closer to life goals, side-hustle progress, strengthening relationships, biking.  That doesn't even take into account that you're probably using a smart phone/laptop/desktop/tablet that you could sell to increase your net worth, and you're even possibly paying for electricity/internet to power/connect said device. Think anyone on their deathbed said "I really wish I would've forumed more!".

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2018, 07:23:33 AM »
Hardcore frugality (which MMM has never been about) and optimization still allow for rest, play, community, and communication.

On my deathbed, I probably wonít say I wish Iíd forumed more, because I do the exact right amount of time for me currently. Like many other aspects of my life, you guys make my life faster, brighter, happier, cheaper, smoother.

Snake P. Jenga

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2018, 07:29:07 AM »
Considering Pete has spent thousands of hours on the blog, I'd say we're not spending enough time on here. :P

In all seriousness, I use this forum primarily to build relationships. It's amazing how many real-life friendships I've gained through the site. I've also gotten ideas and partners for side hustles, biking advice, and tools to enable my life goals.

driftwood

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2018, 10:16:03 AM »
Considering Pete has spent thousands of hours on the blog, I'd say we're not spending enough time on here. :P

In all seriousness, I use this forum primarily to build relationships. It's amazing how many real-life friendships I've gained through the site. I've also gotten ideas and partners for side hustles, biking advice, and tools to enable my life goals.

Hmm... see Pete on here much?  He used to write the blog, but it seems like he's busy doing other things now. Which makes sense, once you lay out the basics you don't need to continue to write post after post after post about the same simple formula.

+Yay for the relationships and goals.

Cali

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2018, 11:21:05 AM »
Even I would like this and would have no problem getting face punched for certain things.

Iím all for respecting peopleís personal decisions, but I would love an area thatís consistently less permissive of spending apologists and where itís expected that if you post about lifestyle inflation spending that itís going to be challenged, and aggressively so.


I agree completely.

Although I'd be a bigger fan of calling it "die hard mustachians" (DHM) instead of "True Mustachians". A person who buys a $400 blender* while still socking away 50% of their net worth is still a mustachian, they're just not as die hard about it.

*Author's note: this is not me, I do not own any blenders.

pecunia

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2018, 11:44:49 AM »
I hope you guys get your subforum.  Then with your true hard core values, perhaps you will give tough love to some of the rest of us when we have our moments of weakness.

I'll follow your example and when people call me cheap, I can look back at them straight in the eye with a smile and say, "Thanks I've been working on it."

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #79 on: April 29, 2018, 03:05:30 PM »
A person who buys a $400 blender* while still socking away 50% of their net worth is still a mustachian, they're just not as die hard about it.

Yes, if the blender is well considered, determined to be a priority, and adding value to their life, definitely still Mustachian... And if for some reason we must categorize people further, I'd say this person is more diehard than the person who buys a $3000 two-week vacation, not less.

Somewhere along the way in Mustacheland we lost sight of the fact that buying tickets, second accommodations, etc, is still consuming. Mustachianism has plenty of room for consuming -that's a large part of what separates it from other cool movements.

DreamFIRE

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #80 on: April 29, 2018, 03:58:34 PM »
Your savings rate and budget are great, for sure. I donít know how we could call that much square footage per person nonexcessive, badass, nonluxurious, though. (I mean that space doesnít have to be filled with peonies and bearskin rugs and silence to be luxurious. Rather that space, privacy, fuel, etc, for a space that large is already...a lot...and well beyond necessity.)

It wasn't about total square footage for me, but when I bought the house 16 years ago, I had a list of priorities, such as room for a pool table, quiet/safe neighborhood, attached two-car garage, short drive to work, and a basement.  My house was the only one that met the criteria.  I keep all heating vents closed for the lower floor (1300 sq. ft.)

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #81 on: April 29, 2018, 09:15:04 PM »
Zikoris, tell me if this is too off-topic for your thread (in which case Iíll delete or move)...

Iím genuinely very keen on your idea for an area for Advanced Mustachianism.
It made me think it would rock to have an area, too, for Beginner Mustachianism.

AM would give experienced people space to dig into deeper changes, without having to wade through lots of ďsame oldĒ, as youíve proposed.

BM would give newer people a space to feel comfortable asking about the very first steps (groceries, etc), let them browse and be inspired by other ďfirst stepsĒ others are doing, and let the AMs hop over there to help when they feel like theyíve got time and energy for that.

This made me think it would be great to have an overhaul of the entire forum (really!).

i.e.,
Forum Stuff
Gauntlet
Journals
Relationships (no longer limited to single)
AM
BM
General/Recommended Books/Recommended Products/Ask A/DIY/landlording/investing/blog conversation/taxes/etc all as one category

Stuff currently going under badassity/post-fire/etc could all fit under AM.

7 categories instead of the 23 (?) we have now. Provides the focus several people here want, keeps the most active areas, merges the less used ones, maybe improves forum speed, makes it easier to view all the miscellaneous stuff.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 09:25:12 PM by jooniFLORisploo »

Carrie

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2018, 09:25:33 PM »
Yes, what she said. ^^^^

Zikoris

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2018, 10:13:32 PM »
I think a "Beginner Mustachian" area is a great idea. Quarantine the noobs, lol.

Hirondelle

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2018, 01:47:19 AM »
That's some great suggestions Jooni!

marty998

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2018, 02:33:42 AM »
I think a "Beginner Mustachian" area is a great idea. Quarantine the noobs, lol.

This is called the "case study" section of the forum?

Where everyone lists that they have car loans, cable, netflix, and hulu and 500 other tv, music and entertainment subscriptions where they pay to listen to ads?

BookLoverL

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2018, 07:55:58 AM »
I like the idea of having some additional forum like Advanced Mustachianism or something. Even though I'm a relatively new poster, I lurked here for a couple of years before I started posting, and I think the forum quality has suffered with the influx of anti-facepunching people, including a) people who are pretty much not frugal at all, but because they earn multiple six figures or something they can claim a high savings rate even though they haven't properly left the consumer mindset (if they spend $80,000 a year but they earn $200,000 a year, that's more than 50% savings rate, but it certainly isn't helpful for those of us who don't even earn $80,000 to start with), b) people who are all, "I'm aiming for FI but not RE, I am going to OMY right into my 60s because I'm only interested in saving 25-30%/I don't want to give up all these fancy catheters and bedpans/etc", and c) just generally people who are unwilling to consider unorthodox solutions to things (extending to unwillingness to consider buying used appliances, justifications for clown cars, etc.).

It would definitely be better if there was some space that those of us who want to engage in more advanced thinking on frugality could use. For one thing, a lot of this current spendypants advice is completely useless to people with a lower-than-average income.

I definitely prefer reading the ERE forums these days, though I don't have an account there yet, and there are usually only one or two new posts a day over there. The quality of the discussion is usually pretty highbrow, with well-thought-out posts from most people, and Jacob himself still posts in a lot of threads there. But there's a lot of space between somebody spending $50,000 per person per year and somebody spending $10,000 or $5,000 per person per year, and that space ought to be covered over here.

I'm a red panda

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2018, 08:12:14 AM »
I agree, I got told off for telling someone to get rid of their cable because it was "just noise". And I'm not even as hardcore as some here.

While we're at it, can we have a relationship/marriage issues subforum too?

"Mustachian and Single" seems to be the designated relationship discussion area.

It should probably be renamed then. This would be a bizarre forum to post marriage issues in.

neo von retorch

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2018, 08:31:38 AM »
Facts
  • MMM's blog, and the forums have drifted from the "really frugal, carefully considered spending" message it once was
  • Some forum members are fatigued from unsuccessful attempts at "face-punching" bad suggestions, combined with an increase in "but my values!" defenders
  • Everything devolves into a reductionist argument of "your values are different from my values!" (even this thread!)

Options
  • Create a newly defined "hardcore" forum - the most consistently frugal (self-defined) will hide from the masses and talk amongst themselves, reinforcing their beliefs and quietly muttering about the failings of the "others"
  • Continue the status quo... people will talk about feelings and mis-judge the effects of their spending, but nothing can be done to prevent it
  • The most courageous and knowledgeable among us will learn new ways to communicate more effectively, removing overly subjective argument points, making more concise, salient points, providing shining examples and reframing each encouraging suggestion in a way catered to the original poster, most in need of refreshed perspective

Discussion
  • We have learned how confirmation bias and other lizard-brain level mechanisms are hard to circumvent and reprogram. We have learned how identifying people as "others" magnifies the (perceived) division into a greater one. We have, grudgingly (perhaps), accepted that we can each take different paths, have different values, gain what we would label as "true happiness" (or joy, or success) through different means, sometimes at apparent odds with others.
  • But we are enlightened. We know that so much spending is wasteful, ineffective, poorly conceived. We know that there are so many out there that could benefit from making better decisions. We want to educate them. We want to help them. But it is so hard. So many threads quickly derail because there are so many users now, and many will be driven by their lizard-brains to defend their own choices, and because of that, they must defend the choices of others making similarly bad choices.
  • What do you want to achieve? Fine-tune the "hardcore" group with education that applies only to them; continue to expand upon the MMM mission of educating the masses to change they way they live; maybe some other objective? Which option best suits your goal?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 07:21:53 AM by neo von retorch »

maizeman

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2018, 09:22:42 AM »
I think your last bullet point ("what do you [we] want to achieve?") is particularly salient neo von retorch.

The answer may differ for different posters on this thread, but it's important for each of us to consider, and probably describe, what our answers to that question are.

Zikoris

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2018, 09:46:52 AM »
I don't think I really have a "goal", other than a vague idea for a place for the like-minded to hang out, throw facepunches, and discuss more advanced/extreme stuff. Basically an ERE corner.

I don't particularly care about educating the masses - as far as I'm concerned, the information is out there for anyone who wants to learn it.

GuitarStv

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2018, 10:03:40 AM »
Give us fewer 800$ blender recommendations or give us death.

maizeman

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2018, 10:40:41 AM »
Well if that's the specific goal, one option would be to recruit a number of hard core posters (who probably also have ERE accounts, I know I do) to start posting over there more often.

(Mods I know this is a sensitive subject, so if you feel I've stepped over the line feel free to delete this post, and or take more extreme action if you feel it is justified.)

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2018, 10:50:50 AM »
::tempted to get an ERE account::

I think this forum is truly great and I'll definitely remain active here. I'm not remotely triggered by people spending $300 or $800 on BIFL-type items. What I'm personally thrown by is crazy high incomes, especially if the people save most of it. It's so discouraging for me, as a person who (is in great financial shape but) can't save half a mil per year no matter how strategic I am. But I just work around it, enjoying the many benefits I experience in being part of the forum overall.

neo, loved your long post! Thanks very much for that :)

Cassie

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2018, 03:39:49 PM »
One thing I find interesting is how society has changed through the years in regard to debt, obsession with stuff, etc.  When I was raising my kids we handed down clothes, had a garden, watched each other kids, took hand me down towels & sheets from my Mom when she bought new, fixed our own old cars, etc.  But no one had debt but the mortgage.   We all saved small amounts for the future.   Most had college degrees or tradesmen but no one made huge salaries.   Now all my friends own their homes, can afford to travel, eat out etc in retirement but no one is upgrading to fancy shit.  Now I am starting to think that maybe we aren't typical boomers because I read tons of stories about other boomers excess.   At 63 I can tell you that the most precious thing right now is time, my family, friends and pets.  If something happened tomorrow and we couldn't travel anymore even though we love it we would both be okay with it.  We have too many other good things in our lives to enjoy.  For awhile I wasn't happy about growing old but then started to think of all the people that are denied that opportunity.

ender

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2018, 07:11:46 AM »
This is what most online communities go through too. You start small with a much more personal and shared goals, interests, etc and as the online community becomes more popular new people "water down" that original vision/culture.

Then the original group realizes it and there's conflict.

I've seen this in literally every online community I've been part of (and many RL ones, too).


maizeman

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2018, 07:16:41 AM »
This is what most online communities go through too. You start small with a much more personal and shared goals, interests, etc and as the online community becomes more popular new people "water down" that original vision/culture.

Then the original group realizes it and there's conflict.

I've seen this in literally every online community I've been part of (and many RL ones, too).

I haven't been a part of as many online communities, but that makes sense.

Based on having seen this happen multiple times, what would you say where the approaches people took to resolving the conflict which had the best/worst outcomes?

2Birds1Stone

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2018, 07:32:25 AM »
80% savings rate in April, do I make the cut?

kaypinkHH

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2018, 08:37:57 AM »
{Warily dips a toe into this thread...}

I would definitely not consider myself a member of this new proposed subforum, but I admire you all that do meet substantial bad ass goals/living situations etc all over this forum. I've been a MMM reader for years, and only semi-recently dove into the forums and have been enjoying seeing how far people can go and their personal successes!  (Shout out to @APowers for his sub $200/month food thread).

But even I, a medium level (?) mustachian, am surprised of the comments I've been receiving on threads just in the past week. Par example, I posted my normal monthly food spending update in the reduce my grocery spend thread, and mentioned I had a new baby on the way and restaurant spending should go down, and I had well intentioned (although not requested) advice that I may spend more than I think with a new baby because I may need to buy more convenience based food stuff/take out. Cool, but not expected from a MMM forum? Shouldn't I have gotten advice like "WHY IS YOUR RESTAURANT SPENDING SO HIGH IN THE FIRST PLACE??" Or even better advice like "New baby coming, keep up the attempt at bad ass food spending, here is how I kept my food spending down"....or no advice at all???  If I wanted "you will spend more when you have a new baby" comments I would just talk to EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

Don't even get me started with the recent shenanigans in the overheard at work thread.

I think going into journals/specific threads and face punching people willy nilly for their own life choices (ERE vs travel vs bigger house vs Vitamix blender) is not needed, but neither is the overall lower expectations into a more consumer mindset.

Maybe it is the time of year, we all got our tax returns and we are spending them like crazzzzyyyy. (JOKES).

Even as a not hard core MMMer, I would love to see a ERE corner here, for inspiration so I can remind myself there are always ways to improve. For now I'll continue to enjoy the "Share your badassity" section.

{Warily backs out of thread}

limeandpepper

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Re: New subforum for hardcores?
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2018, 08:54:46 AM »
But even I, a medium level (?) mustachian, am surprised of the comments I've been receiving on threads just in the past week.

If you want face punches, start a thread and ask for them in the title to attract those who like a good old-fashioned punch-up. :)  In the olden days in the forum people would just dole them punches out without being asked, but these days most people tend to be more polite and only provide punches upon request.