Author Topic: Forum is very erratic lately  (Read 32646 times)

Syonyk

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Forum is very erratic lately
« on: April 21, 2015, 05:15:02 PM »
I've been seeing a lot of lag on page load, and the past two nights, I can't even connect to the forum (from, say, midnight to 3AM Pacific - newborns do this to one).

Is anything going on?  Or is any advice needed on scaling forum load?  I work for a large internet company and would be happy to help out if there were any sysadmin needs.

Cathy

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2015, 07:24:46 PM »
We can only speculate about what specific scaling issues might be in play, but who says speculation can't be fun? ;-)

I have extensive experience administering internet forums and I have fixed scaling issues on forums many times in the past. Typically off-the-shelf forum software fails to create the indexes that are necessary to run common queries efficiently, so the forums eventually become extremely slow and unreliable.

vbulletin historically (and maybe still today) did not create any indexes to help lookup a user's IP addresses, or to find a user by IP. On one large vbulletin forum I used to administer, recursive IP searches would take down the site. I've never dealt with Simple Machines forum but it's probably similarly bad.

Assuming the forum uses MySQL, the usual solution is to enable the slow query log and use it to determine what indexes should be created.

That said, this forum is relatively small so the issue might even be something more basic, like say the web server configuration not having high enough parallelism (e.g. insufficient worker threads/processes if using Apache like the Server header suggests).

It could also be a DDOS attack of some flavour, although I doubt it because they wouldn't just attack the forum to the exclusion of the main website.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 07:38:17 PM by Cathy »

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2015, 11:25:05 PM »
I'm less interested in speculation and more interested in why the forum isn't reliable and seems to regularly have database connectivity issues.

If a paid tier of membership would allow for purchasing reliable hosting, I'd certainly be happy to contribute.

Cathy

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2015, 11:38:19 PM »
This is probably something that can be fixed with software or configuration changes without needing more hardware. This forum isn't that large compared to other forums I have dealt with that, when properly optimised, had no hardware limitations on typical commodity hardware. Before adding more hardware, somebody would need to determine what the bottleneck is, and in doing so, they might realise it's possible to fix without the additional hardware after all. An expert on this kind of thing could likely solve the problem, or at least determine whether additional hardware is needed, in a very short amount of time.

I have done this kind of thing before in about a day of work. I would be happy to do so here if MMM and his team want help. The items I mentioned in my first post in this thread would be the first things I'd look at, but I'd also look at other things.

Of course, it might turn out that more hardware is needed after all, but that's not something that can be determined without some work.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 01:10:34 AM by Cathy »

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2015, 11:42:09 PM »
I totally agree, and I have no idea whatsoever who to contact to see if I can help out.

I'm on paternity leave and bored out of my mind, so doing some DB optimization and indexing sounds utterly enjoyable right now. :)

MDM

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2015, 08:11:24 AM »
FYI:
Are there statistics available that (quantitatively) address the issues noted in http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-is-very-erratic-lately/?

If so it "would be interesting" to have them available - easy to say when someone else would have to do it, but still true.

Not that I know of.

Anyone know more...?

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2015, 08:46:48 AM »
There's no monitoring?

Anyone care if I set up something for basic http completion? I'm really very bored right now on paternity leave...

MDM

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2015, 08:52:45 AM »
Seems the folks to discuss this with would be some of the five Administrators:  http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/mlist/?sort=id_group;start=0

Cathy

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2015, 09:16:18 AM »
FYI:
Are there statistics available that (quantitatively) address the issues noted in http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/forum-information-faqs/forum-is-very-erratic-lately/?

If so it "would be interesting" to have them available - easy to say when someone else would have to do it, but still true.

Not that I know of.

Anyone know more...?

You probably could have started collecting such statistics in less time than it took you to write those posts, MDM. ;-) No special privileges are required and loading the index once every few minutes is a totally negligible load on the site so it's not really something I would worry about. I don't think the statistics will be useful, but since it took only a literal minute of effort to write a 3 line shell script after reading your earlier post this morning, I did already set up a cron job to prospectively collect some statistics. (I wouldn't have bothered if somebody else had already done it at that point.) Collecting these kind of statistics is really a case where posting about it takes more work than just doing it.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 09:20:52 AM by Cathy »

MDM

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2015, 09:24:09 AM »
You probably could have started collecting such statistics in less time than it took you to write those posts, MDM. ;-) No special privileges are required and loading the index once every few minutes is a totally negligible load on the site so it's not really something I would worry about. I don't think the statistics will be useful, but since it took only a literal minute of effort to write a 3 line shell script after reading your earlier post this morning, I did already set up a cron job to prospectively collect some statistics. (I wouldn't have bothered if somebody else had already done it at that point.) Collecting these kind of statistics is really a case where posting about it takes more work than just doing it.

Everything is easy...if you know how to do it. :)

Cathy

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2015, 09:37:26 AM »
You're right, but given your wizardry with Excel, I assumed you were an expert on these kind of tasks. ;-) Sorry.

Anyway, I don't think the statistics will be useful because (among other reasons) a lot of the time the forums are just laggy in a way that isn't significant enough to reliably measure externally, but still indicates configuration issues. I guess they could help demonstrate the magnitude of the downtime if that is what you are interested in.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 09:50:01 AM by Cathy »

MDM

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2015, 10:16:07 PM »
You're right, but given your wizardry with Excel, I assumed you were an expert on these kind of tasks. ;-) Sorry.

Anyway, I don't think the statistics will be useful because (among other reasons) a lot of the time the forums are just laggy in a way that isn't significant enough to reliably measure externally, but still indicates configuration issues. I guess they could help demonstrate the magnitude of the downtime if that is what you are interested in.
One has to know one's limitations....

And while it's fun to juggle a bunch of things as a one-man band, it's even more fun to be part of a team (e.g., many of the contributors here) that brings a variety of overlapping and complementary skills to problem solving.

The "it would be nice if..." I had in mind (again, don't know if it's practical) is a trackable measure of site responsiveness to external requests.  E.g., "average milliseconds to deliver a new page during the past 10 minutes" or similar.  One could then use standard control charts, etc., to determine when something abnormal needs fixing, and/or track the effects of configuration changes to determine whether they were good, bad, or indifferent.

I'd guess this is something the big firms (e.g., Amazon) do, but it may or may not be practical for every site...?

And having posed that question here it occurred to me to forestall a lmgtfy response, so googling   tracking web site responsiveness  , one finds (among others) http://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/app-insights-monitor-web-app-availability/

Back to any admins peeking in here to comment on whether the above (or similar) package seems worthwhile...?

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2015, 10:52:49 PM »
I'm on paternity leave for another few weeks and have extensive experience running large scale web stuff. I'm happy to help if there is anything I can do.

Cathy

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2015, 11:27:51 PM »
The "it would be nice if..." I had in mind (again, don't know if it's practical) is a trackable measure of site responsiveness to external requests.  E.g., "average milliseconds to deliver a new page during the past 10 minutes" or similar.  One could then use standard control charts, etc., to determine when something abnormal needs fixing, and/or track the effects of configuration changes to determine whether they were good, bad, or indifferent.

Google Analytics by default records full page load time in 10% of requests, given that the page loaded (and the user has JavaScript enabled). A review of the source of the forum pages reveals that Analytics is already in use, so this data already is available for review. Of course, this doesn't include any data points from pages that didn't load far enough for the JavaScript to run, but they are captured by other metrics (also available through Google services that the site appears to already be using).

As an unprivileged user, you can make an HTTP request to the site from time to time and measure the response time, but the difficulty is that even under good conditions, there will be significant variance in response time, so in order to smooth that out, you would need to make a large number of requests. The Google Analytics data avoids that problem since it's being collected on pages that are being loaded by real users anyway, and thus it imposes no additional burden while collecting tons of data. This data is already being collected.

Since we can't review the existing Analytics data, starting from your post earlier today, I requested the forum index every two minutes (which is very infrequent and would have no perceivable effect on site load, but also isn't enough to make any decent statements about average response time), and I found that on six occasions, it was down (defined as either the forum index doesn't load at all, or it takes more than 10 seconds to load), namely

       Fri May  1 12:02:11 MDT 2015
Fri May  1 12:42:11 MDT 2015
Fri May  1 12:50:12 MDT 2015
Fri May  1 13:14:12 MDT 2015
Fri May  1 17:12:11 MDT 2015
Fri May  1 17:14:11 MDT 2015

From this data I think we can draw the conclusion that the site is frequently down even during a good day. I don't expect to be able to draw many other conclusions from it though, although I will keep collecting it and perhaps post a graph if this problem is still ongoing in a few weeks, perhaps a histogram showing the percentage of downtime experienced each day, or during each one hour period of a day. Hopefully the problem will have been resolved by then by MMM, his current team, and perhaps even other contributors such as you, Syonyk, and myself.

That all said, I still anticipate that there will be a lot of low-hanging fruit making the resolution a straightforward project.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 11:35:43 PM by Cathy »

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2015, 11:35:37 PM »
^ That's consistent with my experience.  It'll be down for half an hour at a time.

SingleMomDebt

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2015, 09:37:57 AM »
Doh! What is up with this forum?! It's driving me crazy with all the times its been down. Need to use something like websynthesis. Then the forum's unavailability would never be an issue.

arebelspy

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2015, 11:25:13 AM »
Doh! What is up with this forum?! It's driving me crazy with all the times its been down. Need to use something like websynthesis. Then the forum's unavailability would never be an issue.

This is being worked on, and there will hopefully be improvements within the next week or so.
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PJ

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2015, 05:29:11 PM »
This is being worked on, and there will hopefully be improvements within the next week or so.

ARS, just wanted to say thanks for posting.  I've been checking this thread whenever I manage to get on the forum, and it's good to hear that someone's working toward a resolution.  :-)

arebelspy

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2015, 06:13:50 PM »
This is being worked on, and there will hopefully be improvements within the next week or so.

ARS, just wanted to say thanks for posting.  I've been checking this thread whenever I manage to get on the forum, and it's good to hear that someone's working toward a resolution.  :-)

No problem!  I don't have anything to do with those sort of fixes, but can pass along messages to TPTB. :)
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SingleMomDebt

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2015, 09:12:27 PM »
Thanks for message ARebs :)

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2015, 07:55:41 AM »
It's weird that the main website was up last night, but the forum was down.

CommonCents

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2015, 08:40:56 AM »
It's weird that the main website was up last night, but the forum was down.

That's usually how it is for me when I'm having issues with the forum.

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2015, 08:53:39 AM »
The forum is a sub domain with separate hosting, as far as I can tell.

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2015, 09:14:05 AM »
That makes sense. I was able to ping the forum subdomain last night. It seemed to be an error running the software itself.

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2015, 11:01:42 AM »
It was broken all night.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2015, 12:27:14 PM »
It was broken all night.

It usually is once it goes down. It is also happening more frequently as well. :(

Jon_Snow

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2015, 07:20:28 PM »
I frequent quite a few forums and this is by far the GLITCHIEST.

If the community here wasn't so cool, I probably would have been tempted to bail.

CommonCents

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2015, 09:16:23 PM »
I frequent quite a few forums and this is by far the GLITCHIEST.

If the community here wasn't so cool, I probably would have been tempted to bail.

+1

MDM

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2015, 02:04:23 PM »
Perhaps this topic was discussed at this weekend's gathering: http://campmustache.weebly.com/?

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2015, 02:34:48 PM »
Perhaps this topic was discussed at this weekend's gathering: http://campmustache.weebly.com/?

No wonder it coincidentally went down that day.

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2015, 08:57:56 AM »
And down again today. Maybe this forum is constantly under attack from Corporate America, trying to stop the spread of the non-consumerism message.

SingleMomDebt

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2015, 11:47:43 AM »
Per 5/20, transition to better is still in process. Hang in there. :)

Quote
"A Technical Note: Due to higher traffic these days, our current server can’t keep up with traffic unless I have the comments feature disabled. We are still in the process of moving to a bigger system and some more modern comment-handling technology. I hope to have everything in order, better than ever, very soon."

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2015, 08:58:07 AM »
16 and a half hour downtime... hopefully for upgrades? :)

Mother Fussbudget

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2015, 09:35:46 AM »
The blog-side of the site has been straining under the load, and taking the forum-side of the website down - even caching the 'comments' in the blog for SEO has been a huge drain (hence, comments were turned 'off' for last Friday's post). 

The transition underway is to move the blog to a more scalable solution (AWS) that will add horsepower under times of load, and to keep the forums on the three (3x) current/existing servers.  The blog side normally gets priority when server resources are scarce, but that won't be a problem after the transition.  The forums take up 1/10th of the utilization the blog takes.

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2015, 09:47:24 AM »
...Aaannnnndd we're back!

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2015, 09:47:45 AM »
Why does this thing keep crashing so hard? Does someone keep posting Kim Kardashian's ass?

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2015, 10:14:26 AM »
I tweeted Mrs. MMM. She had no idea the forum was down. She let Kevin Worthington (am I remembering that right?) know that it was down and super glitchy. They are working on it. I don't think we should assume that our gracious hosts actually know when the forum is broken.

Syonyk

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2015, 10:35:25 AM »
Monitoring! :/

It's literally free if all you care about is, "up or down?"

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2015, 10:58:39 AM »
I tweeted Mrs. MMM. She had no idea the forum was down. She let Kevin Worthington (am I remembering that right?) know that it was down and super glitchy. They are working on it. I don't think we should assume that our gracious hosts actually know when the forum is broken.

What? They aren't sitting on it all day trying to learn how to be more like themselves?

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2015, 10:59:15 AM »
Monitoring! :/

It's literally free if all you care about is, "up or down?"

Yeah, it can send an auto-text and auto-email saying it's down.

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2015, 10:59:51 AM »
My impression is that, as the site/forum have grown, MMM and MrsMM have wisely delegated some of the maintenance work. They are retired, after all. ;)

MrsMM suggested that the forums maintain a point of contact with the guy (Kevin) who I think oversees MMM backend technical stuff. Someone who can report in when things are glitchy. I'm happy to do it BUT sometimes my life is such that I'm not on the forums for a bit (or months). I wonder if one of the Global Moderators might be a better choice?

ATTN MODS - any one of you guys want to volunteer to tweet/contact Kevin when things get hinky from a technical perspective?

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2015, 11:01:58 AM »
What? They aren't sitting on it all day trying to learn how to be more like themselves?
That's awesome.

Maybe you could get with Kevin and help him set up monitoring so he's alerted to forum issues? This is him: https://twitter.com/kworthington

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2015, 10:45:55 AM »
I don't have Twitter. And I'm not sure how the server is setup. And once they move to AWS, it might need to be reconfigured. But I'm sure Kevin can figure out a solution. There are literally dozens of free software programs that will monitor (just with a simple ping) whether a site is up or not. For example:
http://www.gfi.com/blog/the-top-20-free-network-monitoring-and-analysis-tools-for-sys-admins/

And there are services that offer just a website subscription service that periodically pings your server for you and texts you when it's down (usually free for certain service levels). For example:
https://uptimerobot.com/

kworthington

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2015, 07:39:06 PM »
There is site monitoring for the forum using Pingdom. When it was down yesterday, Pingdom did not alert me for some unknown reason. I usually get an email and SMS. I have the same alert set up for the main MMM site.

We are actually in the process of switching hosts, but there are some technical challenges that we are sorting out. I realize that people are frustrated, and believe me I am too since I have to scramble to get the site back up an running when it goes down (which is frequently lately).

We are on it, I promise, it is just taking longer than expected. Hang in there, and thanks for your patience.
Please feel PM with with any site issues. I have been handling System Administrator duties for MMM since mid-March 2013.

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2015, 06:53:38 AM »
Thanks for the update. I assumed someone was already on top of this. All your efforts are appreciated.

It's weird that Pingdom didn't alert you. I know for sure that the latest overnight issue was causing ping failures, because I tested it repeatedly. Sometimes it would time out. Others it would fail with an error.

forummm

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2015, 02:37:09 PM »
Weird. It was down for me for awhile. And now it's back ~20 minutes later. But pings still timeout.

I blame this crash on the new mustache levels.

kworthington

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2015, 02:40:12 PM »
The site was down completely and we had to reboot the server. At least Pingdom alerted me this time.
Please feel PM with with any site issues. I have been handling System Administrator duties for MMM since mid-March 2013.

grantmeaname

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2015, 06:07:05 PM »
Hey, the forum was down for a bit and I was getting redirected to "www.www.mrmoneymustache.com" on both my phone and computer in Chrome. I flushed the DNS cache on the laptop but it persisted. Now it appears to be all good. Anybody else see that?

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2015, 06:24:33 PM »
I didn't see that, however we are switching the main site to a faster and better host. That was probably the hiccup that you saw.
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grantmeaname

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Re: Forum is very erratic lately
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2015, 06:28:40 PM »
It also appears that mrmoneymustache.com/forum/unreadreplies/ no longer redirects to forum.mrmoneymustache.com/unreadreplies, though I can of course change my bookmark.