wood insert as heating source

[Bbqmustache]

Looking at buying a 4000sqft home, with two central fireplaces.  Propane and electric baseboard heat.  For about $5K installed, I can install a Quadrafire 5100i fireplace insert on the first floor fireplace.  Kind of an open floor plan, fireplace centrally located, and free firewood.  How much less propane and heating electric will we use?  Are there other things that can be done to make the home more efficient/frugal in the heating dept?

[sokoloff]

In Phoenix, you won't save much.
In Fargo, you'll save a lot more.

Seriously, you need to let us know where you live and the insulation profile of the home. Insulation quietly puts money in your pocket every year. We did closed cell foam (only ~1.5" thick due to wall constraints) in one bedroom/nursery we remodeled and that room is noticeably warmer than the other north-facing bedroom.

My childhood home was in Maryland, reasonable construction for early 1970s. We burned about 8 cord of wood every winter and that covered the bulk of our heating needs. Though we didn't pay for the wood directly, there was nothing free about it. We cut, split, and stacked wood a lot of the summer. (Dad was a teacher so had summers off.)

[Bbqmustache]

Near York PA.  Since I use muscles cutting and spitting the wood, I call that a benefit that pays for the time and other costs.

Built in early 70s, just rehabbed.  Decently insulated, but  three sets of sliding glass doors (we will put new ones in, the current ones are older).  I don't know what the home's current energy use is like.  We'd like to cut our propane use by 50%, just don't know how possible that it to do.  Trying to calculate the return on my $5K investment.

[paddedhat]

Near York PA.  Since I use muscles cutting and spitting the wood, I call that a benefit that pays for the time and other costs.

Built in early 70s, just rehabbed.  Decently insulated, but  three sets of sliding glass doors (we will put new ones in, the current ones are older).  I don't know what the home's current energy use is like.  We'd like to cut our propane use by 50%, just don't know how possible that it to do.  Trying to calculate the return on my $5K investment.

I live just east of you, in Lancaster county. I would look at how you are buying propane, and if you can greatly improve the process, before I spent $5K to plague myself with burning wood. Compared to a typical propane customer in these parts, who has a supplier and a supplier owned tank, there is a way to but propane and save 40-60% off mid-winter rates. First step is to buy, and install, the biggest tank you can afford, and fit on the property. The one you see on typical Amish farms in the region is a 1000 gallon unit and it's about 3-1/2 Ft in diameter and 15 feet long. There are many outfits in the region that can handle this install, and you should have no problem finding competitive bids. Now you own your own tank, and you are beholden to no one when it comes to a supplier. Call around, and ask for cash prices on a thousand gallons. You might be shocked to see your propane bill drop by 40% on that first fill. From then on, the trick is to only refill in the dead of summer, and aggressively shop for cash prices. I built a house for a buddy of mine in the Poconos. He had an Amish guy from lancaster do the tank install. He fills up in the dead of summer, and last year he actually filled up at below wholesale cost, since it was August and one of his bidders was more interested in some cash flow in the business than making a profit. PA. has become a huge energy producer, especially with the fracking on the western side of the state, where it isn't just natural gas, but oil. Propane is probably not going to see the crazy prices it did in the past, due to strong regional supply, and it can be a pretty cheap fuel if you buy it right.

As for the wood stove, screw that.  An insert is typically located in a decent finished part of the house, You then spend the winter dealing with dirt, ash and tons of foot traffic from the wood pile, through the house to the fireplace. Any wood burner is a lot of work, and there is no such thing as "free wood" it all takes a chain saw, safety equipment, a wood splitter, a way to move it, and ten other things I forgot. When you add the cost of equipment and time to process "free" wood, and keep a wood stove going all winter, you can do it really cheaply IF you place zero value on your free time. If you value your time, like I said, screw that. If you want to spend $5K to give yourself that king of a headache, screw that twice. JMHO, but I wouldn't burn wood if I had a forest full of it out back door, and the house already had a new $5K insert installed when I bought it. Life it too short to live in the 1800s.

[Bbqmustache]

We like the glow from a wood fire, we do have a 10+ acre forest for our yard, and I would enjoy the exercise.    Love your dead of summer idea, thanks muchly!  Home already has an underground storage tank, don't know how large.  I am asking my real estate agent to find out.

Thanks again!

[Stachetastic]

We bought a 1957 fixer upper three years ago, and the first thing we did was replace the original HVAC system with a high efficiency furnace/AC unit. The second thing we did was install a wood burning insert in the fireplace. We love the warm glow of the fire on these cold, dark nights. My husband loves cutting and stacking wood, and our kids like helping him. We keep a large stack on the porch, which is about 20 steps from the fireplace. It does create a lot of dirt and wood debris on the floor, but I vacuum weekly year 'round, so I don't find it to be an increase in work. I believe we paid around $3k for our unit, including install. I have no idea when our break even point would be, because it was mostly a lifestyle decision for us. Our annual natural gas bill averages $50/mo,  including a gas stove.

[Bbqmustache]

From real estate agent, information that changes the question a bit.

No electric baseboard heat.  Heating with propane, and oil (plus woodburning fireplaces).  Oil does not go down in summer like propane.

We visit the house as a family on the Saturday after Thanksgiving, asked her to go over HVAC system with us closely on that visit.

[lthenderson]

I have an insert fireplace and we really enjoy it though I wouldn't want it for our main source of heat. Inserts generally don't hold a great deal of wood at once so it wouldn't be possible to stoke a fire to burn overnight. You would have to count on getting up once or twice in the middle of the night to keep the fire burning. Another disadvantage is when you are going to be gone for a day or two, you have to winterize your house before leaving so you don't come home to burst piping.

Personally I would go with a gas furnace as your main source of heat. Paddedhat has excellent suggestions on reducing cost with propane. Definitely install an insert and burn as much wood as you please to reduce your gas bill but when you can sleep all night long and still wake up to a warm house or take a vacation without having to drain all your plumbing, you will be glad it isn't your only source of heat.

[Bbqmustache]

Sadly, natural gas is not available to us, we will be in the sticks a bit.  trading bugs for thugs.  Will look to see if oil/propane furnaces heat entire house, or just sections.   Will post after Turkey Day with an update.  Really like the house/property, now have to convince family!

[paddedhat]

I would look into the efficiency of the existing unit, as (and I could be wrong) you may find that it's an older unit, on a system that could be greatly improved with a newer furnace/boiler. The most recent owners of the place we just bought saw a 2/3rd reduction in their oil bill once they got rid of a 1955 oil boiler that ran all year to also provide hot water. Also keep in mind that oil is readily available in your area, and fairly cheap. I just paid $2.19. Oil and propane prices are not comparable, since oil has a lot more energy per gallon. As in 91,000 BTUs in a gallon of propane and 140,000 in a gallon of fuel oil.

[Bbqmustache]

Quadrafire 50100i peak output 67.8btu, realistic burn time of 10 hours on a load (literature says 14 hours).  Again, thank you for your post, I am looking forward to reviewing the HVAC of this house.  Propane HWH, but don't know age or efficiency or organization of systems.  Next Saturday.  Writing down questions to be answered.

[Mtngrl]

We have in-floor gas heat, but use this as a backup to our wood stove, which provides most of our heat. We have the gas heat on all the time (it's a boiler that also supplies our hot water) but we keep the thermostat low. This means that in the morning when we get up, the house is cold (the thermostat is set on 60). And during the night it gets cold (We like to sleep cold). So -- if you don't mind those aspects, I think it's possible to save, relying on the wood heat. We have a wood stove and I don't know how this compares to a wood insert. Our house is 2400 square feet and we burn about 4 cords of wood from about October through April. Like you, we like cutting/splitting wood -- it's great exercise out doors. (I will confess, however, that this summer my husband had an accident with the wood splitter than resulted in him losing part of his thumb, and about $4000 in medical bills, so heating with wood didn't save us anything this year -- be careful out there!)

[big_owl]

We put a wood stove in our basement and heat the basement with that in the winter, and it does do a decent job at keeping the rest of the house livable here in the mid-atlantic.

If we had a small house with an open flooring plan then I think I could do it, but only if I was retired.  It'd be impossible to keep the house warm with us both being at work or traveling for work weekly.  I would also have a heat pump back up in case I was injured or sick and unable to attend to the stove. 

The wood is really messy and a pain in the ass to haul and stack.  But it smells good and makes my basement seem like some mountain log cabin retreat on cold winter nights. 

As I age I'm considering buying a DR Powerwagon just to haul wood around and use for other chores.  $$$$

[paddedhat]

We put a wood stove in our basement and heat the basement with that in the winter, and it does do a decent job at keeping the rest of the house livable here in the mid-atlantic.

If we had a small house with an open flooring plan then I think I could do it, but only if I was retired.  It'd be impossible to keep the house warm with us both being at work or traveling for work weekly.  I would also have a heat pump back up in case I was injured or sick and unable to attend to the stove. 

The wood is really messy and a pain in the ass to haul and stack.  But it smells good and makes my basement seem like some mountain log cabin retreat on cold winter nights. 

As I age I'm considering buying a DR Powerwagon just to haul wood around and use for other chores.  $$$$

Before you do that, you might want to check out a good used electric golf cart for a few hundred bucks less. For less than $1500 you should be able to find a good used unit with fresh batteries and a flat bed, or even a little pick-up bed on the back. Exponentially more versatile, and cheap to operate. Keep the batteries topped up, and swap them out ever 6-8 years and you're good to go. I have friends with a big property and tons of toys. The pick-up, small tractor, and fancy side by side sit parked, while the golf cart gets used hard for all kinds of chores, from hauling firewood, and bringing garden stuff into the house, to making the long run down the mountain, to the mailbox

[lthenderson]

OP,

I noticed many comments are about wood stoves and not wood inserts. I'm sure you are aware that they are two completely different things and their ability to heat shouldn't be compared.

[big_owl]

We put a wood stove in our basement and heat the basement with that in the winter, and it does do a decent job at keeping the rest of the house livable here in the mid-atlantic.

If we had a small house with an open flooring plan then I think I could do it, but only if I was retired.  It'd be impossible to keep the house warm with us both being at work or traveling for work weekly.  I would also have a heat pump back up in case I was injured or sick and unable to attend to the stove. 

The wood is really messy and a pain in the ass to haul and stack.  But it smells good and makes my basement seem like some mountain log cabin retreat on cold winter nights. 

As I age I'm considering buying a DR Powerwagon just to haul wood around and use for other chores.  $$$$

Before you do that, you might want to check out a good used electric golf cart for a few hundred bucks less. For less than $1500 you should be able to find a good used unit with fresh batteries and a flat bed, or even a little pick-up bed on the back. Exponentially more versatile, and cheap to operate. Keep the batteries topped up, and swap them out ever 6-8 years and you're good to go. I have friends with a big property and tons of toys. The pick-up, small tractor, and fancy side by side sit parked, while the golf cart gets used hard for all kinds of chores, from hauling firewood, and bringing garden stuff into the house, to making the long run down the mountain, to the mailbox

Haha I refuse to buy an electric golf cart out of principle.  Around here they're basically part of the American dream, as ubiquitous as every family who has to get a barking dog.  I can't conform to that just out of principle.  Well, and more rationally, they're too large for me to store and my property is basically one super steep hill and driving one around would be a dangerous proposition with risk of tipping. 

[freedcorporateslave]

Last year I got a great deal on a used Hearthstone Clydesdale:

Heating Efficiency: 79%
Maximum Output: 75,000 BTU/hr
Heating Capacity: 1200 - 2000 sq. ft.
Firebox Size: 2.4 cu. ft.

Bought some chimney liner and installed it myself, 2400 sq ft 2 story home. Serendipitously a large tree blew over in my yard the same year.

Have you had the chimneys inspected? They need to be completely free of creosote before you install the liner, and yes you must use a liner. Creosote probably is not a problem if it is an open fireplace, but if they had an old non-EPA insert it could be ugly. Also the old flue needs to be large enough to accept the liner and in good condition. You can work around a damage flue with double walled liners - if it is large enough. All things to consider when calculating cost. Don't forget you'll need a woodshed to store the wood and keep it dry.

As to return on investment, well I don't think that should be much of a consideration for this decision. In my opinion heating with wood sucks. Bucking that tree was all good and fine until I had other things I needed to do. Splitting it was worse (I did it all by hand). All the dirt I drag in the house while carting in the wood just sucks. The bugs suck. The cats just love to come over and piss on the wood. Building a fire sucks. Cleaning the firebox sucks. One part of the house being really warm while the bathroom is freezing sucks and I live on the Northern California coast where it seldom dips below freezing!

On the other hand I love the cozy look and warmth of the fire and being able to utilize an otherwise worthless fireplace. I like having heat when the power is out. I don't regret the decision to install it one bit, but I also didn't go into this with the expectation of a return on the investment. I mainly did it for aesthetics and for something new to learn and do and in that respect it has been great.

[Bbqmustache]

Stone fireplace and we will have the chimneys inspected and cleaned before even burning a regular fire.

I am well aware of the difference between a free standing stove and an insert.

Literature for the Quadrafire 5100i says one load will burn for 14 hours.  If I get a real world ten out of that, we have overnight heat.

With two regular fireplaces, I lose house heat from the draft every time I light them.  With an insert, I will get a positive contribution to my home's heat.

I will be working from home, with some travel, national and later international. 

More soon, as the whole family visits the house Saturday.  Happy Thanksgiving!

We're going to check out the current heating system Saturday.

[paddedhat]

I would strongly suggest that you jump on CL. or look around for a used unit. When it comes to inserts, people who are going to save a shit ton of money heating with wood, have free firewood, and all that, I've seen far too often where this turns into the exercise/gym equipment game. Good intentions lead to reality, and eventually the partner in the relationship says, "If you're not going to use that stupid thing, get it the hell out of here!". And that is why there is a nearly new insert, within an hour of you, waiting for you to show up and pay less than 50% of what the original owner paid. I would also suggest that you let this idea rest until the trees start to bud, next spring. Because right now is the worst time to buy any wood heating equipment. Last spring, my nearby Lowes was selling stoves for pennies on the dollar, in spring, since they need to get them off the floor.

[Bbqmustache]

A spring purchase sounds like a great idea.  Checking out the home in a few hours, will try to post photos of existing furnances.

[Bbqmustache]

No to the house, family did not like the rooms.  Thanks for all's help, we are still looking.

[FiftyIsTheNewTwenty]

Have you considered a pellet stove insert?  Pellets are typically cheaper than anything but "free" wood, without the labor and mess; and still have the fireplace effect. 

[jacksonvasey]

I have a napoleon 1402 insert, and it throws off a lot of heat. I think it's rated for up to 2500 sq ft, and my house is 1300.  It's got a pretty big fire box.

If I was you, I'd buy a big insert that's been out for at least 3 years and has a good reputation for transferring the heat into your house (my napoleon is great).  Check hearth.com to make sure the stove you're looking at is good.

Also, if I was you, I'd start with the wood insert, and in a couple years after the insert pays itself off, I'd put in a pellet stove.  Prices aren't great on pellets right now, but sometimes it makes a lot of sense to burn them, and those inserts are capable of feeding themselves while you're not home.