Window replacement in old house with stucco exterior

[PloddingInsight]

I've been watching some youtube videos on how to replace old windows.  Seems straightforward enough for my skillset.  However, none of the houses in the videos look like my ~100 year old house in the NYC area.  My exterior has an oddly textured stucco-like finish, and the windows are set back a good four inches or so into the wall, rather than being flush with the exterior wall.  There's a built-out ledge along the bottom that extends even farther, a good 6" from the window.

I'm trying to anticipate what kind of issues I might run into during the job, or what mistakes I might make.  Does anybody have some advice for me?

My house looks kinda like this:

https://artswikipedia.com/texture/free-rough-white-stucco-texture/243

[sonofsven]

Are your casings and jambs intact, do you have exterior casings?
Are you replacing just the sash, or the whole unit?
You can buy wood sash replacements that utilize your existing window frames, is what I'm getting at.
You can do something similar with vinyl units if you order them without the nailing flange, but it's a little cheesy.

[PloddingInsight]

They're the type of wooden window that has lead weights inside that hang on rope.  No exterior casings.  The parts that I can see are intact, but they are quite old.  The interior of most of them has been refinished, but I'm not sure if that refinishing is just hiding defects.   

I'd prefer to replace the entire window if it's practical.  I can afford the materials and I'd be doing the labor myself.  So cost isn't really much of an issue.  I just want to make sure that when I do this, I do it right.

[affordablehousing]

From the way you describe it you need to do a lot more research. First, why new windows? If they are refinished well on the inside whatever you replace them with won't look as good. They don't save nearly as much energy as people are led to believe.

Regardless, that is a hard texture to match, and it is a big job to replace the whole frame when they are set deep like that. You can probably put block frame windows in, not the cheesy vinyl ones sonofsven mentions, but aluminum-clad wood windows. Here in CA the makers to look at are Marvin, Loewen, Pella. Not sure who the nice window manufacturers are in NYC but figure on about $1,000 per opening for a high quality 36x60 double hung and you should have a nice window. If your window comes with nailing fins cut them off, then caulk well and add new exterior trim stops.

I've noticed there are many fewer videos on putting block frame windows in in retrofit situations (what you are trying to do). You kind of just have to get a real good idea of how to waterproof and be prepared for anything. Don't forget to take out the sash weights, cord and pulley wheels (either bash them in or cut them out) and fill the holes with foam, let dry and shave to match the window opening before you put the window in.

[former player]

That looks like a rough concrete render, presumably over structural brick or concrete block?  Probably nothing much is going to affect it, and if it does it can be patched (which will be functional but probably show unless painted over).

Proper sash windows like yours are usually installed and removed from the inside of the house without affecting the render.  The sill at the bottom is separate from the window and stays in place.

What you don't say is why you want to change the windows?  A properly made and maintained sash window like yours will last for hundreds of years, we have oodles of them here in the UK.  They will also look better than replacements.  Wooden replacements will be more expensive than repairing the ones you've got, and plastic lasts only a few decades before becoming brittle and at risk of failing completely.  I suppose powder-coated aluminium would be functionally good but also expensive and likely to look inappropriate in a house with wooden sashes.

If you have draughts from the current window you can look at weatherstripping, internal shutters and curtains with a layer of insulation.  If you want double glazing it may be possible to change the glass in each sash to double panes, or replace just the sash itself if this is not possible.

Sources on restoring sash windows might include
https://www.blakehillhouse.com/category/maintenance/window-restoration/

[PloddingInsight]

Lots of good info, thanks.

The reason I want to replace the windows is first that they are really hard to open and close.  Some are impossible to open, others just very difficult.  Second, they look pretty old.  They're refinished but the work wasn't done well.

I guess that's not a reason to replace the jambs & all.  But a lot of the projects I've done so far have expanded in scope as I go, simply because it's hard to get new materials to mesh perfectly with very old materials.  So I've started to have a bias toward complete replacement of a system rather than a part, because it's easier.  For example: I recently opened a wall behind a shower and replaced the valve hardware as well as a lot of the piping.  The only broken part was the d*mn cartridge, but I simply couldn't get the new cartridge to slide into the old valve.  I tried, but at a certain point the old stuff isn't worth futzing with.  Maybe I should research a partial window replacement though.  I haven't really looked into it yet.

Once again thanks for all the input.

[index]

Just rehab the old windows. There is probably paint or weather stripping on the inside of the frame where the window slides. A little sanding will take care of it.

We have done 19 of our 26 windows so far in a 100 year old house. Scrape, sand, and paint the sash and frame; replace any loose glazing; peal stop primer then repaint; and new cords on the sash weights. Every window we rehab gets a brand new low-e storm (which qualifies for the same tax credit as replacement windows) with a screen. Payback on the storms at $135/window in climate zone 4/5 is about 6 years for a 32x70 inch window. I calculated the payback with the U-value on new windows at $1100 we were quoted and it was about 32 years. The increase in U-value with the high performance replacement window versus the original window with a low-e storm was about $10/yr per window.     


There are a lot of blogs and some threads on here detailing how people have rehabbed old windows.

[lthenderson]

The reason I want to replace the windows is first that they are really hard to open and close.  Some are impossible to open, others just very difficult.  Second, they look pretty old.  They're refinished but the work wasn't done well.

9 out of 10 times, the reason old windows are hard to open is just due to the layers of paint and grime that get built up. Like mentioned above, remove, scrape, paint/stain and replace. Reglazing the panes is an easy DIY project with the right tool which is cheaply available. Doing all that would be much easier than replacing the entire window and most definitely cheaper.  If none of this is in your wheelhouse, many areas will have a glass place that rehabs windows for a fee so all you have to do is drop them off and pick them up when finished.

[sonofsven]

It's becoming more common in many areas with historic housing stock (and regulations) to restore wood sash windows rather than replace them. I restored all the sash on my second fixer house long ago, it took about a week (I'm a carpenter fyi), the windows worked great and I loved that they were a true double hung, meaning the top sash can be pulled down while the lower sash stays in place.
With a young child in the house I felt it was safer.
Generally, you remove the interior casings to access the weights, remove all the sash and the parting bead which is the thin vertical trim in the jamb that separates the sash, I made new ones since they were so painted up. You can buy sash cord, too (the rope that attaches sash to weight.
Getting the sash cord length correct is a little tricky.
I sanded and primed the sash while it was out, re pointed the glass as needed and painted them, then re installed them.

[ChpBstrd]

I'll dissent on the idea of trying to rehab the old windows. First, to get them semi-working you'll have to spent hours sanding lead paint off of surfaces you cannot easily get to without taking the window apart. Second, after you've done all this hard work, what do you get? You have single pane windows in New York. They'll cost you a fortune in heating/cooling bills year after year and let in all kinds of noise, if not dust too. Water will run down them in the winter time. Future buyers will look at these windows as something that really has to be fixed, regardless of if you've managed to get them to open and close semi-well. It's seen as a sign of a house that somebody didn't want to maintain for decades.

If your house is historically significant, has awesome stained wood trim, or if you care about maintaining the originality, I suggest getting storm windows. These are attached to the exterior wall and convert a single-pane window into double-pane. There are also double-pane storm windows available, which would convert you to triple-pane, for maximum energy efficiency and noise insulation. Plus, they are generally approved for use on structures on the historic register. Storm windows can be custom-made to fit and they open and close on their own. However, they don't solve the issue of easy opening/closing of the original windows. You might have to disassemble and restore a couple of your windows to get them working so that you can enjoy the cross-breeze. Either that or just use a storm door with an opening window and screen at both ends of the house.

If the house has been remodeled and no longer has its historical interior or exterior finishes, or if you really prioritize having just one layer of window that you can open and close easily, I suggest getting quotes from installers. They will be able to quickly identify the most cost-effective product for your installation - something that will quickly pop into the opening, screw into place, and look good while minimizing the amount of damage to surrounding surfaces.

[sonofsven]

It's becoming more common in many areas with historic housing stock (and regulations) to restore wood sash windows rather than replace them. I restored all the sash on my second fixer house long ago, it took about a week (I'm a carpenter fyi), the windows worked great and I loved that they were a true double hung, meaning the top sash can be pulled down while the lower sash stays in place.
With a young child in the house I felt it was safer.
Generally, you remove the interior casings to access the weights, remove all the sash and the parting bead which is the thin vertical trim in the jamb that separates the sash, I made new ones since they were so painted up. You can buy sash cord, too (the rope that attaches sash to weight.
Getting the sash cord length correct is a little tricky.
I sanded and primed the sash while it was out, re pointed the glass as needed and painted them, then re installed them.

I forgot an important detail, after painting all the sash,  wax the contact areas before assembly.

[Fishindude]

I wouldn't put the time and effort into repairing old wood sash windows.   In all likelihood they are probably also single pane glass, uninsulated.
No more than it costs, I also would not replace windows myself.   For about $4-500 per window you can get somebody like Window World to replace them with new insulated vinyl windows, discard the old stuff, wrap all the exterior jambs in aluminum and caulk everything.   If you can't afford to do the whole house at once, do the critical ones first and get it done in phases.

[PMJL34]

OP,

You are in a tough spot. People are very particular about windows. I'm not so I rip the 100 year old windows and put in new cheapo vinyl home depot dual pane windows. They have worked out well for me thus far. Also because my interior and exterior trim is white, it matches just fine. Some houses have colored trim and you cannot paint vinyl so keep that in mind.

Most people, as the above posters have mentioned, like the quality wooden windows and replace the glass or whatever part is failing.  This was more costly for me and more time consuming because everything needed to be custom ordered and like fishindude said, you can only replace single pane with single pane glass. If your windows have been preserved very well and they are high quality, then you should probably do what others are recommending. If the windows your have aren't great (very old doesn't necessarily mean great even if they are wood) then it's faster and better imo to cut out the exterior stucco with about 6-8 inches extra (height and width) and then properly flash it and then re-stucco over it.

Best of luck!

[sonofsven]

I would definitely agree at looking at replacement of the entire unit, to me just because you can restore the wood sash doesn't mean you should. You'll get a better performing unit by far with new ( although a high performing window in a low performing wall is another matter).
I restored my own sash precisely because I didn't want to pay thousands of dollars on new units, and I had the skilks to do it.
I definitely like wood windows but I also like good efficiency.
I use vinyl most in new construction because, for the money, they are the best.
Clad and wood look nice and are nice but I don't believe they perform any better than vinyl, so you're paying for looks.
But when trying to fit something new into more of a classic old house it might be worth it to you to get something with better "looks".

[former player]

If you buy plastic windows (uPVC/Vinyl is plastic) you are adding to the burden on the planet for a product that has a more limited useful life, doesn't look as good and might not be any more energy efficient than rehabbing and improving the windows you've already got.

I suppose you might at least try to sell the wooden ones to a reclamation place rather than having them trashed.

[lthenderson]

An article that says the payback period in replacing single pane windows can be as long as 20 or 30 years.

https://www.remodeling.hw.net/business/construction/a-close-look-at-common-energy-claims

[ChpBstrd]

An article that says the payback period in replacing single pane windows can be as long as 20 or 30 years.

https://www.remodeling.hw.net/business/construction/a-close-look-at-common-energy-claims

OP is also not in Southern California, which is the context for the 30y payback quote. Also from that article:

According to a recent study, the payback period for installing low-e storm windows on older houses in Chicago averaged just 4.3 years.

OP’s NYC location is at a similar latitude/climate as Chicago.

The Energy Star website offers more localized results, based on a 2,000sf house (proportionally edit for your actual sf). They estimate $300/y savings for going from single pane to new windows in OP’s region. The payback period depends on the installation cost, but from a FIRE perspective, one would need to save an extra 300x25=$7,500 to cover the costs of those leaky windows in retirement, so if OP can get windows done for, say, $5k, it would make sense. That investment would be like a perfectly safe 6% bond yield. Storm windows will be cheaper and higher yielding.
https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/manuf_res/windows/ES_Windows_Cost_Energy_Savings.pdf

[PMJL34]

Agree with sonofsven and chpbstd. Going from old single pane to dual pane is a huge upgrade, especially in northern climates.

People like to trash vinyl, but they are very good imo. They are the biggest bang for your buck bar none compared to metal/wood etc which are often 10x the price.

[former player]

Agree with sonofsven and chpbstd. Going from old single pane to dual pane is a huge upgrade, especially in northern climates.

People like to trash vinyl, but they are very good imo. They are the biggest bang for your buck bar none compared to metal/wood etc which are often 10x the price.

Except for the cost to the environment.

[Fishindude]

Except for the cost to the environment.

There is an environmental cost to everything we do.   So you're using a little petrochemicals for your window frames instead of cutting down a tree.
Once they are in your new vinyl windows will save burning fossil fuels to heat and cool the house.

Also, prepping and repairing those old windows using paint stripper, new paints, materials, caulks, etc. is not an environmental "freebie" by any means.

[NaN]

@PloddingInsight:

I replaced my 1960s house single pane aluminum windows with wood/aluminum clad windows. The comfort of having the new windows was well worth it, IMO. I did a hybrid approach with buying windows from my own dealer, hiring someone to install some of the windows first then I finished the rest myself, and then completely hiring out the stucco repair.

My house also had stucco exterior, but did not have the deep bullnose. In my area where there is a lot of adobe style houses with this detail and the window replacement costs might be 50/50 labor/windows split, or even 60/40. Some of the more expensive window companies (e.g. Sierra Pacific) make deep exterior casings/trim that help push that out so there is less of a inset.

If you were to DIY, here is the order I would tackle the problem
1) Detail every window you are replacing size and type (i.e. double hung, casement, glider etc.). Understand the window opening sizes as best as you can. This may involve some demo around one window to find the dimensions of the frame opening.
2) After figuring out the frame opening, you have two approaches:
a) Custom size every window to the rough opening (i.e. if RO is 48" x 48" make sure the new window is set for a RO of 48" x48" - usually this means the actual dimension of the window is 47.5" x 47.5"). .
b) Go with standard sizes and shrink the RO by adding filler framing. I took this approach as it was faster and cheaper. Out of 10 windows I replace, I dropped the sill plate 2 ft on three windows (for egress rules) and only widened one window from 4' to 7'. Definitely dropping was way easier. The enlargement of the window was intense with the framing, but doable. On all other windows that were not being widened the standard width was such that I just had to add a 2x4 inside the jack stud to fill it in.
3) Figure out what you want to do with window sills. Either order them with the window or figure out how they will be built after the window is installed. This is way easier to figure out before moving forward than afterwards.
4) After windows are ordered acquire the necessary tools/material
a) Cutting out existing exterior: I found the expensive diamond cutting wheels for angle grinders to be work the best. The cheap did not do as well. It is possible you have a lath hanging out behind there so expect sparks.
b) flashing - I bought this Dupont flashing that stretches for the sill plate corners. It goes in before the window goes in. I bought the standard flashing (from Home Depot) for the sides and top.
c) Non-silicone sealer, I preferred latex.
d) Nails or screws for the nail flange. The window installation manual will specify the size.
e) shims (plastic works well). There are all kinds of different types.
f) If you are going to replace the exterior you will need all the material for lath, grey coat, and finishing. I hired this out, but if you want to do it yourself it might be wise to practice on a dummy window and wall.
5) When windows arrive, it is time for the install!
a) Cut exterior back 6" from opening. Using the cutting wheel with a chalk line makes this easy.
b) deal with any framing required for window or window sill. This includes any new exterior sheathing. My house had 1/2 board that may or may not have had asbestos.
c) put in sill flashing first
d) slide window in and shim to level.
e) follow directions in installation manual for sealing. This usually is a bead of sealant along the inside corner of the nail flange. Then a bead about 0.5" in from the opening. I put the bead on the window and around the opening with the window out.
f) Insert window and screw/nail flange to frame opening
g) Finish flashing the sides, then the top.
Windows are installed and waterproofed!
5) Exterior (this is based on observation from the crew that did this for me)
a) staple two layers of exterior paper (black stuff) to exposed opening
b) nail strips of metal lath around window
c) apply first coat, let dry
d) apply second coat with a fabric mesh, let dry
e) apply final coat
f) spray stucco color/texture/paint
The bullnose turns might take some extra lath material to shape the turn.

When I bought my windows I got quotes from two providers of the same window brand with in a delivery distance (you may only have one). The one closest was about 30% higher in price, which did not include install. I bought from the building supply shop and had the windows delivered, and I found one crew to help with the install. One of my windows took four people to lift and hang. If I had smaller windows this would have been easier. I learned a lot from this crew, and actually installed two windows and a sliding door myself. The directions online for any of these places is a great resource and starting point. I hired two different crews (because of two different years) to do the exterior stucco matching. They did a fantastic job. If I had the time myself I could have done this, but the mixing and the application is a little bit of an art. If your paint is old and discolored it will not match. Because my exterior was recolored before I bought the place it was easy to get them to match it. You might consider repainting/coloring the entire exterior.

And in terms of the 'environment'. While I am horrified at the waste coming from these intense reno projects I take pride in the fact that I am trying to make my house last another 60 years by sprucing up the significant things like windows rather than someone tearing it down to build a brand new house. Ideally I would last another 40 years in this house, but if the next owner shows up sooner and they feel comfortable enough to leave it as is then hopefully over the long run it is way more environmentally friendly than a new home.

And this hybrid approach saved me about 50% total on the windows. I was quoted from one guy about $60k and I replaced 10 windows, a sliding door, and added one window for maybe about $35k. My windows are large, too. Of the 10, 8 were at least 4' or 5' tall and varying between 6 and 8' wide. This included both exterior and interior drywall/plaster patching.

[index]

An article that says the payback period in replacing single pane windows can be as long as 20 or 30 years.

https://www.remodeling.hw.net/business/construction/a-close-look-at-common-energy-claims

OP is also not in Southern California, which is the context for the 30y payback quote. Also from that article:

According to a recent study, the payback period for installing low-e storm windows on older houses in Chicago averaged just 4.3 years.

OP’s NYC location is at a similar latitude/climate as Chicago.

The Energy Star website offers more localized results, based on a 2,000sf house (proportionally edit for your actual sf). They estimate $300/y savings for going from single pane to new windows in OP’s region. The payback period depends on the installation cost, but from a FIRE perspective, one would need to save an extra 300x25=$7,500 to cover the costs of those leaky windows in retirement, so if OP can get windows done for, say, $5k, it would make sense. That investment would be like a perfectly safe 6% bond yield. Storm windows will be cheaper and higher yielding.
https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/manuf_res/windows/ES_Windows_Cost_Energy_Savings.pdf

Replacement windows are going to cost 4x+ what a storm costs and may last 20 years tops.  I paid $400 a window in 2006 for new windows and I am replacing a 4th vinyl window this year. If I had gone storms I would have saved around the same amount  in utilities and spend 25% less. I wouldn't be worried about replacement 15 years later.

[ChpBstrd]

Replacement windows are going to cost 4x+ what a storm costs and may last 20 years tops.  I paid $400 a window in 2006 for new windows and I am replacing a 4th vinyl window this year. If I had gone storms I would have saved around the same amount  in utilities and spend 25% less. I wouldn't be worried about replacement 15 years later.

My parents are on about year 40 (maybe 45) of their double-paned aluminum replacement windows, and they still work fine. I can only imagine how much money would have been wasted over those decades if they had found a reason not to upgrade their 1950s house.

[lthenderson]

An article that says the payback period in replacing single pane windows can be as long as 20 or 30 years.

https://www.remodeling.hw.net/business/construction/a-close-look-at-common-energy-claims

OP is also not in Southern California, which is the context for the 30y payback quote. Also from that article:

According to a recent study, the payback period for installing low-e storm windows on older houses in Chicago averaged just 4.3 years.

OP’s NYC location is at a similar latitude/climate as Chicago.

The Energy Star website offers more localized results, based on a 2,000sf house (proportionally edit for your actual sf). They estimate $300/y savings for going from single pane to new windows in OP’s region. The payback period depends on the installation cost, but from a FIRE perspective, one would need to save an extra 300x25=$7,500 to cover the costs of those leaky windows in retirement, so if OP can get windows done for, say, $5k, it would make sense. That investment would be like a perfectly safe 6% bond yield. Storm windows will be cheaper and higher yielding.
https://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/manuf_res/windows/ES_Windows_Cost_Energy_Savings.pdf

I'm most definitely in agreement. I just wanted to point out that the cost savings for replacing windows is many years if not decades depending on where one lives. Most people I talk to however assume they are going to be saving wads of cash the first winter after replacing when many do not live in a house long enough to ever recoup any savings. There are a lot more low hanging fruit I would pick first to improve heating efficiency before windows.

[Fishindude]

I'm most definitely in agreement. I just wanted to point out that the cost savings for replacing windows is many years if not decades depending on where one lives. Most people I talk to however assume they are going to be saving wads of cash the first winter after replacing when many do not live in a house long enough to ever recoup any savings. There are a lot more low hanging fruit I would pick first to improve heating efficiency before windows.

I'd agree the energy savings is going to be relatively insignificant.
The real beauty of new windows is that they operate smoothly and properly, so you will tend to open them more frequently and take advantage of pleasant outdoor conditions.   I've lived in several old houses and have battled those old worn out wood windows a lot.   New windows are pretty nice !

[NaN]

The new windows in our house helped us kick the can down the road with installing an AC unit in our house. If we shut the windows in the summer during the day our house stays pretty cool since our lows are generally, for now, still pretty good. With our old single pane aluminum windows it heated up quickly inside. Whether or not I would have saved much energy between the two to pay off the windows to me wasn't the question. I just like being able to live with no AC.