Author Topic: When should I repipe?  (Read 3648 times)

Bruinguy

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When should I repipe?
« on: May 13, 2015, 10:28:45 PM »
So, I live in a neighborhood where many, many of the house are starting to get pinhole leaks in their copper pipes, just about 10-15 years after being built.  Some say its the water, others say the builders used copper that was too thin.  In any event, its a problem that we have to deal with.  Well, we just had our first leak--a slab leak.  We were able to re-route the pipe fairly easily, but we will have to see how much damage the water has done.

It has always been in the back of my mind, but the first leak has me concerned.  Knowing that this is an ongoing issue, it seems like it would be prudent to re-pipe sooner rather than later. If I have had one, it would follow that I'm likely to have another one.  Right?  It would seem better to re-pipe now, so I don't have to deal with additional water damage from the next leak.

Does anyone have thoughts or experience in dealing with this? 

Thanks in advance.

paddedhat

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Re: When should I repipe?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2015, 03:47:29 AM »
The very first issue, that should of been addressed already, is to stop guessing if there is a water issue. I lived in a neighborhood where this exact scenario developed. The issue was that the water was too acidic, and it was discovered, a decade later, when the pinhole leaks first surfaced. The solution was to install water treatment that neutralized the acidity. f you have water that will eat metals, IMHO, it's needs to be corrected, and patching or replacing piping is only addressing symptoms, not the cause. Remember, once you change all the lines to PEX and carefully eliminate as much metal from the system, the water is still free to attack the remaining brass and copper in things like shower valves and kitchen faucets.

The next issue is that the water treatment industry is a culture of thieves and scumbags. The very last thing I would do would be to call a high pressure treatment company, who will charge you thousands, then hundred a year to maintain the system. First, get the water tested at a real water quality lab. They will give you a sample bottle and instructions for how to draw a sample. Then start learning online exactly how to address the problem, and what equipment you need. Even if you have to order everything online, and pay a plumber by the hour to install it, you could end up saving thousands over what your local big name treatment company charges.

I started building homes a few years ago, in a region with a soluble iron problem in the water. The "only" solution the locals knew of was a local water treatment outfit the could cure it. I went to their showroom to see the system. The saleswoman accidentally called one part of the system the "brine" tank. This was enough of a clue that I used that, and a model number on another piece of the system, to determine that it was nothing but a cleverly relabeled water softener system. Like many in the industry, she was such a damn snake that she flat out lied, and claimed that it was NOT a water softener, when she contacted me later. They wanted $3000, for the system, installed. I did my first one with a name brand water softener unit for one of the big box home improvement stores. It was less than $400 for all the parts, and east to install. Problem solved, $2600 stayed in my pocket.

One last point. The thin copper claim may be valid. That said, it's often assumed to be the problem, but typically the first pin holes show in the elbows. Most elbows are "drawn". This means that they are pieces of tubing that are stretched in the shape of an elbow. Pulling the material causes it to thin out, and many of the leaks I have repaired are just about dead center of the elbow. Hopefully, if you have access to any leak, you are using Shark Bite fittings and doing DIY repairs? Once these things hit the market, there really is no excuse for calling a pro to do an easily accessible repair. If you have a skill set that includes some basic mechanical ability, Shark Bites can make a repair pretty easy, and foolproof. Good luck.

Bruinguy

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Re: When should I repipe?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2015, 06:56:01 AM »
Thank you paddedhat!  It did not occur to me that I could test the water myself, but makes perfect sense.  Testing kit has been ordered.

Thanks also for the lead on the Shark Bite fittings.  I'll keep that in mind if there is a next time.

Follow up question.  So, after I test, I'll add a filter or other fix the acidity or other corrosive substance in my water, if applicable.  Even then, I'll still have pipes that have been exposed to this corrosive substance for 15 years and have experienced one leak.  Is it reasonable to believe I have "fixed the problem"? Or, should I take this one leak as evidence that the pipes are about to fail and look into re-piping to avoid the next leak? If not now, when is the right time to re-pipe?

In another situation, I'd be fine to wait and make patch fixes along the way.  In this case, since water from leaks can cause so much damage, it would seem prudent to replace the system earlier than later.  But, I don't want waste money if it is not needed at this point.

Thanks again.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: When should I repipe?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2015, 09:19:26 AM »
Shark bite fittings are super easy.  They're also super expensive.  They also have a nice feature in that they are removable if need be.  I've had good luck recently with pre-soldered fittings--they take a lot of the guesswork out of installation, and they're waaaaay cheaper than sharkbite, even if they're not quite as fast to install.

paddedhat

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Re: When should I repipe?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2015, 10:53:40 AM »
If you have water issues, and have addressed them, I would avoid a program of ripping and tearing piping out because it MIGHT leak in the future. I still keep an eye on my old hood with the acid water issues. The homes date to the early nineties. One has been completely repiped, another got some significant replacement involving a lot of drywall removal, but most have been just fine, with minimal problems over the years, after the water treatment was installed.

Yes, Shark bites are indeed expensive, but I recently replaced an elbow for a friend. It took a short piece of 1/2" copper,  two SB couplings and a 90* fitting. About $20-25 in parts, and it took more time to drag a step ladder in and out of the basement than it did to do the work. No soldering, and very little skill required. Compare this to our local plumbers who get $200 to show up for a service call, and frequently will grab a handful of Shark Bites and a scrap of pipe to fix the problem anyway,LOL

Papa bear

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Re: When should I repipe?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2015, 11:24:09 AM »
Sharkbites (push fittings) are fantastic!  Typically, for code, however, these are. It considered "permanent" and you must have access to them. (Can't be in a wall, covered over, etc)


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paddedhat

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Re: When should I repipe?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 06:40:05 PM »
Sharkbites (push fittings) are fantastic!  Typically, for code, however, these are. It considered "permanent" and you must have access to them. (Can't be in a wall, covered over, etc)


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Maybe it's a local issue for you, but the manufacturer has approvals from the two major plumbing codes (IPC & UPC) for concealed installations. I have run it to issues like this in the past, and frequently manufacturers will be able to fax or email an approval letter that settles the issue. In my area, the inspector's opinion of a product means little if I have the ICC approval document, and the product is installed according to the manufacturer's instructions. A few years back, when Ledger Lock lag bolts and other easy to install, high strength fasteners started showing up at the lumberyards, we had local inspectors that were failing them. That when many of us local builders figured out how to win these battles without stirring up a big mess. If you have the paperwork in hand, and installed it correctly, it's a dead issue.

Bruinguy

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Re: When should I repipe?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2015, 02:38:21 PM »
Ok, water testing kit just arrived and I will be taking the samples this weekend.  Thanks for your help so far.

I am now trying to learn what I should be looking for in those results.  So far, I have found a lot of different online articles that don't provide a lot of specific information.  I have found reference to the Bayliss curve, which seems to indicate the safe range for the balance between pH and alkalinity. 

Does anyone have any recommendations for a guide to water corrosion in residential plumbing (or in general)?  Or, any suggestions on where to look?

Thanks!


Bruinguy

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Re: When should I repipe?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2015, 07:07:24 PM »
Ok, I might have found an answer to my own question.  I found a few publications from Wisconsin that address some of the questions, which I attached for future reference.  Links to other informative guides welcome.