Author Topic: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)  (Read 8603 times)

Thegoblinchief

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What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« on: October 27, 2014, 07:39:38 AM »
97 Subaru Legacy Outback (2.5L)

Car has gone from having a very occasional misfire to running incredibly rough. Barely gets past 15mph, then suddenly snaps to running normally. Stopped at a light, again rough, then snaps to normal. Once the engine runs for ~10 minutes it runs normal the whole time.

Codes it throws are:

P0302 (cylinder 2 misfire)
P0304 (cylinder 4 misfire)
P0400 (EGR) --> this last code has been for quite a long time. I just haven't gotten around to fixing it. Not sure if it contributes to the problem or not.

So, what I'm thinking is first:

1. Replace coil pack (more expensive than spark plugs but much easier to access on this car). Ebay has them for $25.
2. Replace plugs. Bitch to access with the engine in the car but it can be done. Not looking forward to it, though.
- Pretty sure the wires are fine, because I've swapped them to see if the cylinder misfire location would change and it doesn't.
3. Trace down the EGR problem, likely the vacuum tubes.
4. ???

This sound like a good attack plan for those more knowledgeable than I?

Please note: the car has some other issues with it, so I'm just trying to keep it running for a little while longer.

trammatic

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 08:43:15 AM »
Sounds like coils to me.  Should not be an EGR issue.  Most auto parts stores will take returns of new parts in like new condition, so try installing the coils and see how it idles.  If it fixes the idle, you found the problem.  If not, put the old ones back on and return the new ones...say it didn't work.

Posthumane

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 08:55:18 AM »
While an EGR issue should not cause idling problems, both the misfire and EGR could be symptoms of an intermittent vaccum leak. Make sure you get a thorough look at the intake and listen for leaks before replacing the coils. Also, replacing the plugs may be made easier by lifting the engine slightly. You don't have to take it out of the car, just unbolt the lower mounts and raised it a few inches with a jack.

guitar_stitch

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2014, 09:01:30 AM »
If the EGR is sticking open, it could very well contribute to the rough running.

However, I would start by checking all your grounds.  At the age of that vehicle, you could have amassed a nasty bunch of corrosion.  As the engine heats up and metal expands, it makes better contact.

Vacuum leaks can cause all KINDS of issues.  Definitely worth a look.  You can use a can of carb cleaner to help ID vacuum leaks as well.  Spray suspect connections with the engine running.  If the RPM increases, you have a leak.

Mr.Foostie

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2014, 12:07:58 PM »
Check the coolant tank for signs of oil contamination, foaming or coolant loss.  Check the oil foaming/discolouration.  I had an older version of the car with the same engine (2001), replaced the head gaskets twice.  There were updates to the head gaskets around 2003 but I am not convinced that they ever completely solved the problem.  Later cars were better in theory but searches revealed further reports of those problems so I have stayed away...  The misfires could be coolant entering the cylinders, just a guess but I would check that before any ignition system stuff.  If there are no overt issues surrounding coolant it might be worth compression testing the thing before throwing parts at it.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2014, 12:55:33 PM »
It's definitely not consuming coolant, and this gen of the Ej25 engine is not prone to the head gasket failure like the early 2000s ones.

NaturallyHappier

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2014, 06:03:35 PM »
I don't know much about subarus, but sounds like it could also be a bad oxygen sensor.

Mr.Foostie

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2014, 08:20:47 PM »
Not likely an O2 sensor, there are separate codes for those and if I remember correctly this car has two, seen those codes too often on that car.  I don't think there is otherwise an obvious answer to this one without doing a bunch of troubleshooting.  Could be bad injectors, bad coils, bad plugs, bad wires, a dirty MAF or a large vacuum leak etc.  The whole issue of things working after 10 minutes would point me more to electrical though, either condensation affecting the wires or coils or a bad connection that rights it self when things expand.  In the olden days one would spay WD40 or other moisture dispersants on the high voltage stuff to see if the problem resolved, that is kind of messy and not great for the rubber bits though.  You might want to pull boots and stuff to see if there are any carbon traces where things might have been arching.  You might want to swap plugs, wires or injectors to see of the problem moves, can't remember if that one had individual coils, is so that's an option also.

Word of caution though, I would not drive the car too much like that in case it is dumping raw fuel into the cat (i.e. the 15MPG thing), it will burn itself up internally and you may need to replace another part...

If you want to swap some stuff I would recommend rockauto.com as a good source of stuff at really good prices.  I recently sourced things like OEM O2 sensors and stuff at about 20% of dealer cost for my Nissan.  By comparison most of the run of the mill auto parts places I have come across don't seem to have nearly as good a selection of Japanese car parts.

There is another option...  Subarus are real enthusiasts cars, there might be a Subaru club near you.  Through postings and recommendations on a local club board I found a really good tech to do major work on mine, he had a shop beside is his house, he had been dealer trained, he loved the cars and he was a real straight shooter.  You might want to search out a guru like that who won't charge you an arm and a leg and might know what the problem is right away.

Melf

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2014, 06:22:48 PM »
I've just been working through a similar issue with my 02 Nissan Maxima.  It has been running rough sporadically.  I finally got the code for a cylinder 4 misfire.  I swapped coil packs with cylinder two and the trouble appeared there next so I replaced that coil pack and am waiting to see if I get another issue anywhere.  I replaced two of the four coil packs since I had bought two new ones anyway (from Rockauto.com).  I may go ahead and replace the remaining four in the near future just because.  No more codes since change and she's running pretty good now.

As far as your EGR,  I believe the EGR tube that returns the burnt exhaust back to the intake manifold is prone to clogging.  You might want to pull that hose if it's accessible and check.  As mentioned before....check for vacuum leaks too.  I just replaced the few vacuum lines on mine while checking stuff since they were in bad shape.  Just a couple bucks for several feet of hose to do the job.

I'm also planning on pulling my fuel rails soon since the fuel injectors can cause similar poor performance issues.  I got the new o-ring kits to replace them when I have it apart.  I don't really want to have to replace any injectors since those are pretty pricey just like the coil packs.  I really just want to check them to see how they look.  I just ran a full can of Seafoam in about an 1/8 of a tank of gas last week in hopes of cleaning out the fuel system.

Other fairly easy things to check/clean are the throttle body (big butterfly valve that allows air to flow through to the intake manifold) and your MAF (mass air flow) sensor.  Just be careful with these and use component specific cleaner for the MAF.

Good luck.


hodedofome

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 08:31:41 PM »
One piece of advice, before you try spending a decent amount of money just randomly replacing parts hoping to fix it, consider just paying a repair shop the check out fee for them to diagnose it for you. Then at least you have a good shot of replacing just 1 part.

guitar_stitch

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2014, 08:07:21 AM »
One piece of advice, before you try spending a decent amount of money just randomly replacing parts hoping to fix it, consider just paying a repair shop the check out fee for them to diagnose it for you. Then at least you have a good shot of replacing just 1 part.

Not always.  Not even most of the time.

Best bet would be to monitor the OBD-II data in real time.  It's easy and cheap with an android device + Bluetooth OBD-II transmitter.

hodedofome

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2014, 11:26:17 AM »
One piece of advice, before you try spending a decent amount of money just randomly replacing parts hoping to fix it, consider just paying a repair shop the check out fee for them to diagnose it for you. Then at least you have a good shot of replacing just 1 part.

Not always.  Not even most of the time.

Best bet would be to monitor the OBD-II data in real time.  It's easy and cheap with an android device + Bluetooth OBD-II transmitter.

I guess you haven't had good luck with repair shops. I go to a good one (read: not cheap) and they've fixed it the first time every time for me, and I've had a lot of clunkers over the years.

I used to work at a car dealership and we had good techs. We hardly ever had a car come back.

DollarBill

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2014, 10:33:24 AM »
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/116927-cyl-13-misfire-solved/

I would pull the plugs and check the electrodes. Then pull each wire to see if the connections don't have any burn marks. Also, I found this link that points to the knock sensor.

@ Melf: I've also seen the knock sensors and timing belt tensioner going bad on the Nissans.

jaizan

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2014, 04:36:10 AM »
How long has the car been running on the same set of plugs?   These need replacing periodically anyway.

Melf

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2014, 01:21:13 PM »
Quote
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/116927-cyl-13-misfire-solved/

I would pull the plugs and check the electrodes. Then pull each wire to see if the connections don't have any burn marks. Also, I found this link that points to the knock sensor.

@ Melf: I've also seen the knock sensors and timing belt tensioner going bad on the Nissans.
Report to moderator   Logged

Thanks DollarBill.  Do you know if the knock sensor would trigger a code?  I haven't seen a code for that.  I'll sometimes get a code for one of the Camshaft Position Actuators though.  As far as timing chain and tensioner.....I don't think the timing chain has ever been changed on my Nissan and it's just over 112K miles.  It probably needs done but I looked at the procedure in the FSM and I hate to take it on myself since it looks like a pretty big job.  I am starting to get a rattle at start-up lately...wonder if that could be timing chain?  I don't hear it once the engine is running.

DollarBill

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2014, 02:35:43 PM »
Quote
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/116927-cyl-13-misfire-solved/

I would pull the plugs and check the electrodes. Then pull each wire to see if the connections don't have any burn marks. Also, I found this link that points to the knock sensor.

@ Melf: I've also seen the knock sensors and timing belt tensioner going bad on the Nissans.
Report to moderator   Logged

Thanks DollarBill.  Do you know if the knock sensor would trigger a code?  I haven't seen a code for that.  I'll sometimes get a code for one of the Camshaft Position Actuators though.  As far as timing chain and tensioner.....I don't think the timing chain has ever been changed on my Nissan and it's just over 112K miles.  It probably needs done but I looked at the procedure in the FSM and I hate to take it on myself since it looks like a pretty big job.  I am starting to get a rattle at start-up lately...wonder if that could be timing chain?  I don't hear it once the engine is running.

Symptoms of bad knock sensor:
http://www.ehow.com/list_7488824_symptoms-bad-knock-sensor.html

I would try the other stuff first. From what I looked up the 02 Nissan Maxima are a non-interference engine. Meaning if the timing chain breaks the pistons and the valves won't contact each other. If that's the case then I would skip doing the timing chain until it breaks...but that's just me! :)

Just found this too on the tensioner. It's a 2005 Quest but I think it's the same Nissan 3.5 engine. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_4iMo5FUvc
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 02:46:13 PM by DollarBill »

NaturallyHappier

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2014, 02:54:27 PM »
This is like the MMM version of Car Talk!   You have to report back in 6 months and tell us what was really wrong.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2014, 05:52:46 PM »
Knock sensor does throw a code, at least it did on the Legacy. I had to replace it not that long ago.

Melf

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2014, 06:50:29 PM »
LOL.  I love Car Talk but I'm not sure of the advice those guys give sometimes.  I think I've resolved my misfire issue by replacing a coil pack.  I actually had ordered two and installed both....one in #2 where I'm pretty sure I had the bad one and one other....#6 i think.  I may go ahead and replace all of the rest soon since they are probably degrading after almost 13 years.  I've never gotten a code for the knock sensor but I may do more digging and see if there's any way to test it.  I'm not getting any kind of codes now and she's running fine as far as I can tell.  I'm just not sure about that noise I have at startup.  I don't think it's starter or flywheel related.  I don't have any noise that sounds like the timing chain issues once it's running so that's why I'm looking elsewhere at this point.  Sorry to have hijacked this thread.  I hope the Subie issues have been resolved.  Thanks for the comments.

mr6690

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2014, 06:59:03 PM »
Had what sounds to be the exact same problem in my '00 Outback. It turned out to be the crappy old spark plug cables. Once they warmed up car would run fine but until then it ran on 2/3 cylinders. The old cables couldn't insulate the high voltage needed for spark plugs. Also an extremely easy fix.

Don't know if this would be your magic remedy but for the cost of a set of new cables it just might solve your problems? For all things car repair I have found that the most simple and straightforward answer is usually correct. I remember trying to track the source of the problem much as you are until someone advised me it may just be worn cables.

DollarBill

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Re: What parts would you replace first? (97 Subaru Outback)
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2014, 07:56:56 PM »
Quote
I've never gotten a code for the knock sensor but I may do more digging and see if there's any way to test it.
Most of the time if the knock sensor is in the process of going bad it adjust the timing (retards or advances) which recovers after start up. Knock and crank shaft sensors usually don't go bad...they just get dirty and can't read right.

The OBII diagnostics is not a tell all, it still takes trouble shooting. I had a Ford Explorer a few years ago; the ABS and 4X4 lights were blinking and I couldn't go above 10 mph. After a lot of research I narrowed it down to a wheel speed sensor but it didn't tell me which wheel. I took it into a brake masters for a free analysis. They told me it was the right rear. I bought a new sensor ($120) and went to replace it. Then found out the speed ring was cracked and vibrated down the half shaft so the sensor would not read it anymore. It only took a tube of JB weld to put it back in place...bam fixed for $5 and returned the part.

I have many stories like this: like when I fixed the transfer case on my Ford Bronco with a piece of tubing from my camel pack.

- Keep up with maintenance
- Start with the easy stuff
- Use a manual
- Learn to use a multimeter
- Auto parts stores will read codes for free but OBII won't read all codes like ABS (Go to brake masters)
- Register on manufactures websites because they normally have master mechanics to answer questions
- Last resort clip wires or blinking lights with duct tape ;) (No need for ABS, A/C, Heater, Muffler...just cut it off)

I've been a mechanic for the AF for 18yrs and I still get frustrated working on my own stuff. Hats off to you for doing it yourself. Like G.I. Joe said "Knowing is half the battle"...lol


     

 

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