Author Topic: Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux  (Read 2879 times)

dragoncar

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Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux
« on: November 04, 2016, 03:34:59 PM »
So I originally posted this in "Ask a mustachian" and was advised to repost here (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/venting-warm-attic-air-into-the-home-in-winter/) -- If a mod would like to delete/lock the original thread, much appreciated

To summarize:

- I recently added about r40 blown cellulose over perhaps r12 fiberglass in my attic. 
- I used foam to seal all penetrations and top plates. 
- I don't have any ductwork in the attic, but I do have a single vent for my water/furnace that goes through the attic through the roof.

I noticed it's still warm up there.  For example, right now it's 65 in the house, 71 degrees outside, 83 on the surface of my insualtion, and 95 on the bottom of my roof deck. 

That's a nice 15 degree difference, so instead of running my whole house fan (gets me only a 10 degree difference) or the furnace (wasteful), why not take that hot attic air and bring it into the house?  I do have the windows open, but convection doesn't work as well as you might suspect.

I'm not an on-topic nazi, but the last thread got a lot of suggestions to increase venting in my attic.  That's a separate discussion, and one I'd like to explore in a different thread, but would be counter-productive in capturing this free solar power.

The question is:  Is it crazy to install a vent from the attic to the house?

So far, issues raised are:

- Could be dusty - would need a filter, although if the intake is high enough in the attic (say a 5 foot  riser pipe) I don't think there would be much dust

- If my furnace vent is leaking, I could have a carbon monoxide issue
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 03:45:17 PM by dragoncar »

MDM

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Re: Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2016, 08:39:26 PM »
If you blow air from your attic into your house, fresh air will need to enter your attic (else your attic will implode like this).

That should drop your attic temperature fairly quickly.  Good for your shingle life, but now you may not get the heat content you desire coming into the living space.

dragoncar

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Re: Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2016, 10:27:02 PM »
If you blow air from your attic into your house, fresh air will need to enter your attic (else your attic will implode like this).

That should drop your attic temperature fairly quickly.  Good for your shingle life, but now you may not get the heat content you desire coming into the living space.

Haha, yeah.  The volume of air in my attic is probably 1/4 the volume of air in my house, so one air exchange would be enough to warm things up.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2016, 09:49:49 AM »
Here are my thoughts/concerns if I were considering such a thing

So I originally posted this in "Ask a mustachian" and was advised to repost here (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/venting-warm-attic-air-into-the-home-in-winter/) -- If a mod would like to delete/lock the original thread, much appreciated

To summarize:

- I recently added about r40 blown cellulose over perhaps r12 fiberglass in my attic. 
- I used foam to seal all penetrations and top plates. 
- I don't have any ductwork in the attic, but I do have a single vent for my water/furnace that goes through the attic through the roof.

I noticed it's still warm up there.  For example, right now it's 65 in the house, 71 degrees outside, 83 on the surface of my insualtion, and 95 on the bottom of my roof deck. 

That's a nice 15 degree difference, so instead of running my whole house fan (gets me only a 10 degree difference) or the furnace (wasteful), why not take that hot attic air and bring it into the house?  I do have the windows open, but convection doesn't work as well as you might suspect.


First, how large is your attic? If it is a small attic (especially volume wise when compared to the house) it might not be worth it; think how warm the air heated by your furnace is when it enters your house and how much of it there is. Without fancy things such as an outdoor reset (which you should install) it is probably ~120 degrees and it probably blows at 500 to 1300 CFM. That is a lot of thermal energy being distributed.

Second, the roof is likely vented, which means air from outside (cold) will enter as you take air from the attic into the house (unless you push air from the house into the attic) lowering, possibly rapidly, the temperature of the attic and available heat. I suppose you could rig up a heat exchanger system (but you might be better of with a solar thermal collector outside). This also depends on how much heat is generated by the roof (solar gains)

Third, I am not sure why you mention convection. Hot air rises and cold air falls . . . in a closed system. So, the hotter air in your attic will not fall into the house. In a house you are likely to see stack effect where the hot air rises and escapes through the ridge vent and is made up my air from the eve vent or lower in the house. You are going to need a fan to push the hot air down and unless you allow the house air back into the attic it will just find its way out of your house and cold air will enter attic.

Fourth, you may want to distribute it around the house. If you don't you are going to wind up with a room (where the vent is) that in markedly warmer than the rest of the house and you will still be running the furnace or furnace fan to heat/move the air around.

Fifth, any penetration of the heated envelop is a risk for air infiltration, duct dampers are no where near 100%, so you could have a cold leak (heavier air) when the attic temperature drops below the household temperature. Also, a duct damper open the attic air on one side would be very could with a low R-value and in the duct (closed system or close to it depending on the damper) you could sent up a convective current with warm house air rising to the damper cooling when it comes in contact and falling back into the house. Your gains during the shoulder season could be offset by the losses during the heating season (and as your house temperature is colder than outside possibly overnight as well).

Six, at least where I like the wind can change quickly and when it hits the side of the house it can blow right in the attic eve vents and drop the temperature up there quickly (I've been up there working before when and it is drastic). So one minute you could be dealing with a 15 degree positive and the next minute you might be looking a close to exterior temperature.

In summary, I would be concerned that in order to do what you want properly it would be somewhat expensive and complicated (open during the shoulder season during the day and closed and night and during the heating season, as well as fans, distribution, electrical . . . ), potentially for a minimal amount of heat. Before you proceed I would investigate other means of harvesting that heat more efficiently, like a solar thermal collector and/or run a calculation (manual J maybe?) to see what kind of BTUs you are dealing with harvesting from your attic.

Quote
I'm not an on-topic nazi, but the last thread got a lot of suggestions to increase venting in my attic.  That's a separate discussion, and one I'd like to explore in a different thread, but would be counter-productive in capturing this free solar power.

The question is:  Is it crazy to install a vent from the attic to the house?

So far, issues raised are:

- Could be dusty - would need a filter, although if the intake is high enough in the attic (say a 5 foot  riser pipe) I don't think there would be much dust

- If my furnace vent is leaking, I could have a carbon monoxide issue

Regarding the dust, the attic you describe (insulation on top of the drywall) is likely vented (cool air is drawn in at the eves warms on the underside of the room and is exists through the roof vent. The dust is not a issue of the insulation on the floor, but rather the constant cycling of exterior air through the attic. If there is dust there it will be spread across the attic air. At least where I live the wind can whip up a good bit of dust if it has not rained in a while.

Regarding your furnace vent, if it is leaking you DO have a issue and it should be addressed regardless of any other projects.

All that being said if I were in your shoes and could satisfy/address all of my concerns I might experiment with the situation; still I suspect there are better return on invest/heating costs savings to be had (like your insulation upgrade and air sealing) elsewhere in the house.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 09:55:29 AM by BudgetSlasher »

dragoncar

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Re: Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2016, 11:30:33 AM »
Thanks, I mentioned above that I guess the attic has 1/4 the air volume of the house.  It's pretty big.

I mentioned convection regarding the alternative of opening my windows to get the warm wait (but not as warm as the attic) inside.  Yesterday I tried this and it didn't help-- all windows open all day, 65 inside, 72 outside, and it was still only 66 inside at the end of the day when the outside temperature dropped.  Open windows rely on either wind or convection to exchange air with the outside

appleblossom

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Re: Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2016, 03:48:47 PM »
I'm sure that there will be a product that does what you want - because we have something basically what you are looking for. I'm in New Zealand though so I don't know what it might be called where you are, and if it would be appropriate for your circumstances.
We have one of the ventilation systems from hrv.co.nz. It pulls purified warm air from the roof cavity into the home. It only runs while there is a temperature differential between the two spaces, and it does cooling in summer at night as well.
Hope this helps you narrow down what might be available.

deborah

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Re: Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2016, 04:14:08 PM »
I'm sure that there will be a product that does what you want - because we have something basically what you are looking for. I'm in New Zealand though so I don't know what it might be called where you are, and if it would be appropriate for your circumstances.
We have one of the ventilation systems from hrv.co.nz. It pulls purified warm air from the roof cavity into the home. It only runs while there is a temperature differential between the two spaces, and it does cooling in summer at night as well.
Hope this helps you narrow down what might be available.
We have the same sorts of things in Australia. The Sun Lizard went bust, but it has a lot of information about how to build such a system - see http://www.alternativefuels.com.au/content/solarairshifteroverview.html

dragoncar

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Re: Venting free warm air from attic into home in fall: redux
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2016, 04:51:23 PM »
I'm sure that there will be a product that does what you want - because we have something basically what you are looking for. I'm in New Zealand though so I don't know what it might be called where you are, and if it would be appropriate for your circumstances.
We have one of the ventilation systems from hrv.co.nz. It pulls purified warm air from the roof cavity into the home. It only runs while there is a temperature differential between the two spaces, and it does cooling in summer at night as well.
Hope this helps you narrow down what might be available.

Cool, thanks.  I actually have a whole-house fan, but it only runs in one direction.  It would be cool to have a reversible one with automation.  It's actually a bit giant, and a huge leak in the winter.  They make newer ones that are insulated, with an automatic raising cover, but mine only has some rickety aluminum louvers.  So when I insulated the attic, I installed a styrofoam box around the fan, with an insulated lid, that I can raise/lower with a pulley system twice a year (raise in the summer, lower in the winter).  Didn't want to spend that $500 for a new, more efficient system at this point, mostly because the size would be different and I'd have to do MORE drywall work on my home.