Author Topic: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!  (Read 30409 times)

dizzean

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Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« on: December 26, 2013, 09:28:57 PM »
My friend/acquaintance who is a plumber replaced some of the water pipe in my house with Pex and while in the basement tonight I just realized the ground wire and clamp that it runs to used to be attached to the copper pipe and is now not attached to anything.  He has since not returned to finish in 4 months, so I've cut the cord and I'm replacing the rest myself or with another friend of mine who knows plumbing.  I am very concerned about my grounding issue though..

What are my options at this point?  I do have a gas furnace/water heater and about 8 feet of copper pipe (in the wall) on my side of the water meter.  Can I just solder more copper onto the original copper ground wire and run it to the gas pipe or that other copper?

I just realized this and I'm seriously nervous about not having my fuse box grounded.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 09:37:17 PM by dizzean »

Daley

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2013, 09:44:03 PM »
It's best not to ground to your natural gas line, that poses the risk of giving you a hot time in the old town tonight, and most gas utilities greatly frown on people doing that. You can still ground to the water line, but you'll need to be sure it's up to code. What that code is currently, I will leave to others for better clarity, though I believe it's at minimum a #6 AWG solid copper wire from the neutral bar (IIRC) on your main panel to the water pipe, and another wire to jumper across the meter itself. Otherwise, you need to sink a new copper ground bar into the earth.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 09:46:45 PM by I.P. Daley »

ncornilsen

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2013, 09:46:19 PM »
Check local codes, however... you can install grounding rods easily enough.

dizzean

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2013, 09:46:30 PM »
It's best not to ground to your natural gas line, that poses the risk of giving you a hot time in the old town tonight, and most gas utilities greatly frown on people doing that. You can still ground to the water line, but you'll need to be sure it's up to code. What that code is currently, I will leave to others for better clarity, though I believe it's at minimum a #6 AWG solid copper wire from the neutral bar (IIRC) on your main panel to the water pipe, and another wire to jumper across the meter itself.

I appreciate the input.  My immediate concern to just get it grounded and worry about code when it warms up (I live in MN) and I can have a ground rod put in.

After doing some more research I think I can just use a wire nut/copper crimp and some new wire to extend the existing ground wire 30ish feet and attach it to the copper and it will be the same as it was before.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 10:10:38 PM by dizzean »

TomTX

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2013, 06:44:52 AM »
In your situation, I would extend the ground wire and clamp it to the remaining copper pipe.

Come spring, I would put in a proper grounding rod (or two) and use that.

Spork

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2013, 07:22:14 AM »
It's best not to ground to your natural gas line, that poses the risk of giving you a hot time in the old town tonight, and most gas utilities greatly frown on people doing that

Are you sure about that?  I am not 100% sure, but I think it's pretty normal to ground to gas lines to keep the potentials the same -- even when there is a dedicated ground.  In other words, it keeps you from having a static spark cause you a very bad day.  I know my panel has a dedicated ground wire that clamps on right at the gas inlet, just above the regulator.  ...and this is not the main ground for the house, just a tie in.

paddedhat

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2013, 04:15:33 PM »
It's best not to ground to your natural gas line, that poses the risk of giving you a hot time in the old town tonight, and most gas utilities greatly frown on people doing that

Are you sure about that?  I am not 100% sure, but I think it's pretty normal to ground to gas lines to keep the potentials the same -- even when there is a dedicated ground.  In other words, it keeps you from having a static spark cause you a very bad day.  I know my panel has a dedicated ground wire that clamps on right at the gas inlet, just above the regulator.  ...and this is not the main ground for the house, just a tie in.
 

You are spot on with the engineering behind this set up, but it's not a ground at all, it's a bond. Bonding is the process of interconnecting metal structures, utilities, and equipment so that they do indeed have the same potential. Different concept, different part of the code, but as you astutely note......... very important. (also very important in the world of pools, spas, etc....)
I build in a rural area, and a while back a new player in the propane supply game blew into town with a lot of drama. Bright Green tanks, lots of undercutting competitors, heavy marketing. Well, they did a few jobs and the fairly knowledgeable, local, all purpose building inspector asks me a few questions about this very issue. Turns out that were driving a separate ground rod, grounding their tank and attached supply lines, and specifically NOT bonding to the home's grounding system. The inspector questioned it, the company's engineer told him he was wrong, LOL. Eventually there was a big pow-wow, a real engineer was brought in by the township, and the new company was told do it right, or end up with a stop work order on every job.  I was pretty stunned, ignorance is one thing, going out of your way to create a life safety issue is another matter.

paddedhat

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2013, 04:25:25 PM »
It's best not to ground to your natural gas line, that poses the risk of giving you a hot time in the old town tonight, and most gas utilities greatly frown on people doing that. You can still ground to the water line, but you'll need to be sure it's up to code. What that code is currently, I will leave to others for better clarity, though I believe it's at minimum a #6 AWG solid copper wire from the neutral bar (IIRC) on your main panel to the water pipe, and another wire to jumper across the meter itself.


I appreciate the input.  My immediate concern to just get it grounded and worry about code when it warms up (I live in MN) and I can have a ground rod put in.

After doing some more research I think I can just use a wire nut/copper crimp and some new wire to extend the existing ground wire 30ish feet and attach it to the copper and it will be the same as it was before.

You are on the right track. The wire should be a solid, bare copper #6 or #4, and you connect it to the old wire with split bolt connector. Everything is available at the local Lowe's or HD. Try to use a pair of adjustable wrenches or the correct box wrenches if you have them. The connector is bronze and they really get gnarled up if you go at them with anything like pliers. In spring drive two (code requirement for several years now) 5/8" rods eight foot apart, connect them with a solid copper wire using "Acorn" clamps, and run the wire to the existing ground wire and connect the whole thing together with another split bolt. Relying on municipal water supply piping is becoming an issue. If you need to repair a line from your home to the street, in the vast majority of cases it is NOT going to be repaired or replaced with any type of metallic piping. No metal, no ground. When lightning hits the house, or even nearby, the damage from the missing ground can, and will, become extensive and expensive. Good luck
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 04:29:04 PM by paddedhat »

Spork

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2013, 04:42:28 PM »
It's best not to ground to your natural gas line, that poses the risk of giving you a hot time in the old town tonight, and most gas utilities greatly frown on people doing that

Are you sure about that?  I am not 100% sure, but I think it's pretty normal to ground to gas lines to keep the potentials the same -- even when there is a dedicated ground.  In other words, it keeps you from having a static spark cause you a very bad day.  I know my panel has a dedicated ground wire that clamps on right at the gas inlet, just above the regulator.  ...and this is not the main ground for the house, just a tie in.
 

You are spot on with the engineering behind this set up, but it's not a ground at all, it's a bond. Bonding is the process of interconnecting metal structures, utilities, and equipment so that they do indeed have the same potential.

LOL...  Yeah, I have a good friend that is a master electrician and he pretty consistently points out my improper terminology.  I try to understand as best I can and try to follow what code I know (and try to doubt myself enough to ask my buddy when I think I don't know.)  He can go on for 10 minutes on different kinds of grounding and I pretty much zone out 12 seconds in.  I eventually just get to "just tell me where to attach the wire."

In spring drive two (code requirement for several years now) 5/8" rods eight foot apart, connect them with a solid copper wire using "Acorn" clamps, and run the wire to the existing ground wire and connect the whole thing together with another split bolt.

Thank you for that.  They did that when they built my house (2011) and I had never seen the 2 grounds before.  I had no idea what was going on there.

Relying on municipal water supply piping is becoming an issue. If you need to repair a line from your home to the street, in the vast majority of cases it is NOT going to be repaired or replaced with any type of metallic piping.

Semi related anecdote:  In the early 2000s the place I worked had a very large data center.  There was a section in the back with about 50 servers that suddenly started having issues.  They were replacing power supplies at a rate of about 1 every 2 weeks on a couple of rows of servers.  My aforementioned electrician friend started digging into it.  It turns out that there was a water cooled mainframe we took out 2 years prior that was the ground for about 1/3 of the room.  Oops.

paddedhat

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2013, 06:51:33 AM »
LOL...  Yeah, I have a good friend that is a master electrician and he pretty consistently points out my improper terminology.  I try to understand as best I can and try to follow what code I know (and try to doubt myself enough to ask my buddy when I think I don't know.)  He can go on for 10 minutes on different kinds of grounding and I pretty much zone out 12 seconds in.  I eventually just get to "just tell me where to attach the wire."

Yes I too have a gift of creating quick, efficient and deadly boredom , my wife finds it annoying.

Thank you for that.  They did that when they built my house (2011) and I had never seen the 2 grounds before.  I had no idea what was going on there.

Had a funny conversation with a really sharp inspector, when this rule changed. you have the option of testing the effectiveness of a single rod, in the presence of an inspector, if you wish to avoid installing two. Since I think too much, I asked what he needed to see at the test. He said he wanted the value of the rod measured against a "counterpoise" installed 25' away. A counterpoise, for testing purposes, is three rods, driven in a triangular formation and interconnected. I then noted that it would take a few hundred in supplies, time, inspection fees and three wasted rods to prove that one additional one is not required. "Yea, we haven't had any requests to observe that test yet"


Semi related anecdote:  In the early 2000s the place I worked had a very large data center.  There was a section in the back with about 50 servers that suddenly started having issues.  They were replacing power supplies at a rate of about 1 every 2 weeks on a couple of rows of servers.  My aforementioned electrician friend started digging into it.  It turns out that there was a water cooled mainframe we took out 2 years prior that was the ground for about 1/3 of the room.  Oops

Tricky stuff. I was on a crew doing this work and using huge metal clad, multi-conductor cables that were physically wrestled under the raised floor and under 8-12" of existing ,abandoned cable systems. These cables were 2-3" thick and sometimes needed twenty guys at a time to maneuver. Prior to going online, we bonded the supply end of each cable, for obvious safety reasons. On start-up we had total failure. The bonded shield was compromising the ground value of the system, and creating a difference of potential between the supply and the mainframe. Creating a condition where the computer was unable to "Think".  Cheap fix, but tough to diagnose if you don't appreciate how sensitive the system is.

regarding the OP. Had a case where lighting struck somewhere on the street in front of my buddy's house. Tight neighborhood, and most homes had little to no damage. One house got pummeled. everything that even looked like it had a digital circuit inside was toast. Appliances, TV, audio, alarm clocks, everything.  Buddy calls me and asks WTH? I tell him I would suspect a ground failure. The home's system was OK, but the city had replaced the 1" incoming water line. "upgraded to plastic" eliminated the grounding system entirely.

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Re: Replaced copper with Pex, just realized I have no ground!
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2013, 08:22:20 AM »
Had a funny conversation with a really sharp inspector, when this rule changed. you have the option of testing the effectiveness of a single rod, in the presence of an inspector, if you wish to avoid installing two. Since I think too much, I asked what he needed to see at the test. He said he wanted the value of the rod measured against a "counterpoise" installed 25' away. A counterpoise, for testing purposes, is three rods, driven in a triangular formation and interconnected. I then noted that it would take a few hundred in supplies, time, inspection fees and three wasted rods to prove that one additional one is not required. "Yea, we haven't had any requests to observe that test yet"

You can also buy a meter that will test the impedance of the grounding rod. That's the way it's done for the inspectors offshore.